Which Warden player hurt you so bad that you've gutted Warden so bad?

Mr_Stach

I mean really, you can't look at these changes for this patch and think that Warden as a Class overall is in a Better Place, can you?

You've gutted Advanced Species
You've gutted Scorch and Morphs
You've tied Winter's Revenge to a Destro Hoop to make it somewhat viable, which hurts it for Stam Players
You've Gutted Fetcher Flies, which I guess you gutted everyone's sticky DoTs so it's a Moot Point
You Gutted Bear to a degree as well, don't think we forgot that 19% nerf

And what do we get in return?

Snare Immunity on Wings and Arctic Blast being usable as a DPS skill in PvE and a Burst Heal/Stun in PvP
I guess the Birds changes aren't awful, but I still hate them personally
This patch is truly a Monkeys Paw

What do we need to do to get Warden into a good spot, I thought when Stamden started to get Bleed we could really start moving in a good direction, and could become the Savage Guardians and Master's of Frost.

But I'm done, well at least for now. Going to take a long break, I hope anyone that cares about their class does the same.

chessalavakia_ESO

They had months of feedback from people complaining about much of the Warden skill lines and they acted on it.

Before my current signature I was running please don't change the Warden significantly because I felt all of the forum posts about the Warden were going to get the class significantly changed and I didn't feel like arguing in every single post.

Klingenlied

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

They had months of feedback from people complaining about much of the Warden skill lines and they acted on it.

Before my current signature I was running please don't change the Warden significantly because I felt all of the forum posts about the Warden were going to get the class significantly changed and I didn't feel like arguing in every single post.

Warden is, for years now, a lackluster class in PvP and Magden has been underwhelming for what feels like forever.
In regards to changes, a giant amount of the proposed changes was thought through and would have changed the class for the better. No player asked to make Scorch a two-hit, ultra-delayed ability. No one asked to change the animal companion passive.

The changes that are happening are NOT on the community. We may have asked for a stun and more frost (and maybe bleed?) damage sources. But that is pretty much the main focus.

Anyway, if we look at the full picture - and that ain't all that easy any more - it does actually seem Warden - relatively to the other classes - did gain a little in regards to his overall package, but lost some of it's existing identity and feeling and is now even harder to play then ever before (well, Magden at least).

SEINTDARKNES

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I mean really, you can't look at these changes for this patch and think that Warden as a Class overall is in a Better Place, can you?

You've gutted Advanced Species
You've gutted Scorch and Morphs
You've tied Winter's Revenge to a Destro Hoop to make it somewhat viable, which hurts it for Stam Players
You've Gutted Fetcher Flies, which I guess you gutted everyone's sticky DoTs so it's a Moot Point
You Gutted Bear to a degree as well, don't think we forgot that 19% nerf

And what do we get in return?

Snare Immunity on Wings and Arctic Blast being usable as a DPS skill in PvE and a Burst Heal/Stun in PvP
I guess the Birds changes aren't awful, but I still hate them personally
This patch is truly a Monkeys Paw

What do we need to do to get Warden into a good spot, I thought when Stamden started to get Bleed we could really start moving in a good direction, and could become the Savage Guardians and Master's of Frost.

But I'm done, well at least for now. Going to take a long break, I hope anyone that cares about their class does the same.

Realistically i don't know why we get some of the changes we get because we give a lot of feedback and we get the opposite.

But anyway i will take a break too!, mwf2 here i comes!

MashmalloMan

Mr_Stach wrote: »

But I'm done, well at least for now. Going to take a long break, I hope anyone that cares about their class does the same.

Same. We tried. I'm out until ZOS show's they care about classes meaning something. Our feedback and testing means nothing because they love to resist anything we request for as long as possible.

I can't imagine why. It feels like any time a request is made that most of the community agrees with, they push and push and push on it, making half way changes like Whip costing Stamina/Magicka, acting like they listened to us, but doing so in the most condescending way possible. "Stam DK rejoice, you finally got stam whip". Are we suppose to congratulate you, praise you for listening? Why didn't you listen a year ago, 2 years ago, 5 years ago. Why is it something people didn't actually request?

Do they just want to be right, to claim ownership over their ideas?

The Arctic Blast and Wings change has been requested for literally YEARS - maybe they thought we forgot about it by now so they gave in? Regardless, they finally do it. They finally just buck up, listen and do the right thing.. but then couple it with 10 other crappy changes.

Scyware

I'm also gone. Everything I used on my stamden got nerfed. Carve, Maelstrom 2hander, shalks, bear, literally EVERYTHING I've used is dead in the water. See you guys in... idk 2 years or so. I'm done

prof_doom

MashmalloMan wrote: »

"Stam DK rejoice, you finally got stam whip". Are we suppose to congratulate you, praise you for listening? Why didn't you listen a year ago, 2 years ago, 5 years ago. Why is it something people didn't actually request?

They half did what people asked for, and make it into something nobody actually wanted.
Which is why I choose the whip as the most symbolic change of this patch.

ESO_Nightingale

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

But I'm done, well at least for now. Going to take a long break, I hope anyone that cares about their class does the same.

Same. We tried. I'm out until ZOS show's they care about classes meaning something. Our feedback and testing means nothing because they love to resist anything we request for as long as possible.

I can't imagine why. It feels like any time a request is made that most of the community agrees with, they push and push and push on it, making half way changes like Whip costing Stamina/Magicka, acting like they listened to us, but doing so in the most condescending way possible. "Stam DK rejoice, you finally got stam whip". Are we suppose to congratulate you, praise you for listening? Why didn't you listen a year ago, 2 years ago, 5 years ago. Why is it something people didn't actually request?

Do they just want to be right, to claim ownership over their ideas?

The Arctic Blast and Wings change has been requested for literally YEARS - maybe they thought we forgot about it by now so they gave in? Regardless, they finally do it. They finally just buck up, listen and do the right thing.. but then couple it with 10 other crappy changes.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

But I'm done, well at least for now. Going to take a long break, I hope anyone that cares about their class does the same.

Same. We tried. I'm out until ZOS show's they care about classes meaning something. Our feedback and testing means nothing because they love to resist anything we request for as long as possible.

I can't imagine why. It feels like any time a request is made that most of the community agrees with, they push and push and push on it, making half way changes like Whip costing Stamina/Magicka, acting like they listened to us, but doing so in the most condescending way possible. "Stam DK rejoice, you finally got stam whip". Are we suppose to congratulate you, praise you for listening? Why didn't you listen a year ago, 2 years ago, 5 years ago. Why is it something people didn't actually request?

Do they just want to be right, to claim ownership over their ideas?

The Arctic Blast and Wings change has been requested for literally YEARS - maybe they thought we forgot about it by now so they gave in? Regardless, they finally do it. They finally just buck up, listen and do the right thing.. but then couple it with 10 other crappy changes.

It's funny how the same patch with the great arctic blast changes is the same one that I'll be sitting out of because of the other destructive changes to the class.

I've spent too much time in the last several years living on the forums. It's not healthy for me. I need to live in the real world for a long while. And so i won't be needlessly making another post

I don't expect to touch this patch.

But I'll quickly list some positives i have about it so that maybe zos doesn't revert them next patch

Arctic Blast is finally a damage skill after years of begging. This is awesome.

The morph effects for dive are a lot better but the base skill's projectile speed and weird off balance condition remain unfortunately.

Deep Fissure having a recast means it'll be a lot better better to use in pve but the difference in ticks is really really frustrating. This needs to be revisited immediately next patch. But I'm not gonna hold my breath anymore.

Wings gaining soft cc immunity has been a long standing want which is amazing to finally see.

But all of this good unfortunately just doesn't outweigh the bad from this update.

Soarora

I just absolutely cannot understand why advanced species was changed or why it hasn’t been changed back. If flat damage is bad then why does nightblade have it now? Every week I’ve been waiting stressfully and nothing. I feel punished for putting class skills on my frontbar. I can’t even begin to think about the other nerfs at that. Waiting until the dust settles to see if I’ll quit my beloved warden but I absolutely am exploring other options and I am not happy about it.

Urzigurumash

MashmalloMan wrote: »

"Stam DK rejoice, you finally got stam whip". Are we suppose to congratulate you, praise you for listening? Why didn't you listen a year ago, 2 years ago, 5 years ago

Well it never made any sense, neither did V Claw really. Breath does cuz it comes out your mouth but why I am holding this big ole hammer with my hands if I need to also use my hands to use my magical claw and whip..?

There's plenty of sound arguments all around but there's a long list of reasons to be skeptical about StamWhip. To keep it short there was supposed to be more identity between MagDK and StamDK than just Red or Green.

universal_wrath

The problem with warden class is that it came out as jack of all trades master of non. It could heal, dps, tank, and support to a good extent but not as proficient as the older classes where DK were pure tanks, Templar healer and NB and sorcs were DPS. older classes are easier to adjust because their weakness are obvious and well known. Warden is in a spot were if you nerf something you make it worst, or if you buffed it even a little you make it top. Necromancer is oppesite of warden where it was interduced as jack of all trades master of all were it was easier to nerf but harder to buff.

Winstonshead

Mr_Stach wrote: »

But I'm done, well at least for now. Going to take a long break, I hope anyone that cares about their class does the same.

Same. Feeling so bad looking into patch notes.

emilyhyoyeon

The winters revenge destruction staff change is probably in response to the requests over years to make frost mages viable. Not saying I agree with it, but it's pretty clear that's the reasoning

ESO_Nightingale

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

The winters revenge destruction staff change is probably in response to the requests over years to make frost mages viable. Not saying I agree with it, but it's pretty clear that's the reasoning

Well, if it was, it'd only be for the frost staff. I don't think the fire or shock staff is necessarily a frost mage item. I think it was an overall decision for their concept of magden.

Even as someone who mostly plays frostden, this isn't a good idea because it just locks needed damage away from people who don't run a destruction staff.

Necrotech_Master

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

But I'm done, well at least for now. Going to take a long break, I hope anyone that cares about their class does the same.

Same. We tried. I'm out until ZOS show's they care about classes meaning something. Our feedback and testing means nothing because they love to resist anything we request for as long as possible.

I can't imagine why. It feels like any time a request is made that most of the community agrees with, they push and push and push on it, making half way changes like Whip costing Stamina/Magicka, acting like they listened to us, but doing so in the most condescending way possible. "Stam DK rejoice, you finally got stam whip". Are we suppose to congratulate you, praise you for listening? Why didn't you listen a year ago, 2 years ago, 5 years ago. Why is it something people didn't actually request?

Do they just want to be right, to claim ownership over their ideas?

The Arctic Blast and Wings change has been requested for literally YEARS - maybe they thought we forgot about it by now so they gave in? Regardless, they finally do it. They finally just buck up, listen and do the right thing.. but then couple it with 10 other crappy changes.

if i was a cynic i would say the wings/arctic blast changes were to placate the numerous other changes lol

a lot of the warden changes are about as bad as the burning light/jabs nerfs for templar

Caribou77

A sore spot is changes that further weaken MagDen in pvp, where it was already largely regarded as the weakest class.

Nerfs to advanced species and deep fissure will make MagDen absolutely useless in pvp.

I have never seen anyone on any forum ask for a nerf to MagDen in pvp. No one has ever said it’s overpowered. And yet, out of the blue substantial nerfs to damage occur.

I don’t get it.

_Ahala_

A word of advice from someone who once spent many years in this game as a very active member of the Magden community. This class is likely never going to be perfect. I held out hope for years working with both unofficial and official representatives using my experience with this and every other class in the game to outline major balance issue. I hoped that it would get better, but from the looks of things I guess it never did. I left... a long time ago. The cool thing is, after a couple of months away from this game, things that use to bother me like horrible skill timings, incomplete skill kits, the lack of build diversity, the abject lack of internal skill synergy, useless abilities, and the out of the blue game breaking nerfs based on external standardization efforts just didn't matter any more. If any of you find that this game is causing you undue stress, that what's happening in game is getting in the way of you actually enjoying life, I implore you, please take a break or do what I did and just move on. Believe me... I've been there. You want to play the game because you still love what it once was but every disappointing patch just drains you of all hope and enthusiasm but a change of pace will do wonders for your perspective and outlook. Don't fall for the sunk cost fallacy. Life is short and its just not worth it to torture yourself like this.

ESO_Nightingale

_Ahala_ wrote: »

A word of advice from someone who once spent many years in this game as a very active member of the Magden community. This class is likely never going to be perfect. I held out hope for years working with both unofficial and official representatives using my experience with this and every other class in the game to outline major balance issue. I hoped that it would get better, but from the looks of things I guess it never did. I left... a long time ago. The cool thing is, after a couple of months away from this game, things that use to bother me like horrible skill timings, incomplete skill kits, the lack of build diversity, the abject lack of internal skill synergy, useless abilities, and the out of the blue game breaking nerfs based on external standardization efforts just didn't matter any more. If any of you find that this game is causing you undue stress, that what's happening in game is getting in the way of you actually enjoying life, I implore you, please take a break or do what I did and just move on. Believe me... I've been there. You want to play the game because you still love what it once was but every disappointing patch just drains you of all hope and enthusiasm but a change of pace will do wonders for your perspective and outlook. Don't fall for the sunk cost fallacy. Life is short and its just not worth it to torture yourself like this.

Ahala, great to see you return even just to offer some advice to people struggling to make the decision you made 2 years ago. This patch more than others is the best excuse anyone has to put the game down and enioy life or another game. Thanks for returning just to post this.

MindOfTheSwarm

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

The winters revenge destruction staff change is probably in response to the requests over years to make frost mages viable. Not saying I agree with it, but it's pretty clear that's the reasoning

Well, if it was, it'd only be for the frost staff. I don't think the fire or shock staff is necessarily a frost mage item. I think it was an overall decision for their concept of magden.

Even as someone who mostly plays frostden, this isn't a good idea because it just locks needed damage away from people who don't run a destruction staff.

They might be testing this out for future skills. On it’s own, it’s bad. But if it was specific to Frost Staves and then other skills got buffed dependant on equipped weapon it could push toward build diversity.

Whiskey_JG

_Ahala_ wrote: »

A word of advice from someone who once spent many years in this game as a very active member of the Magden community. This class is likely never going to be perfect. I held out hope for years working with both unofficial and official representatives using my experience with this and every other class in the game to outline major balance issue. I hoped that it would get better, but from the looks of things I guess it never did. I left... a long time ago. The cool thing is, after a couple of months away from this game, things that use to bother me like horrible skill timings, incomplete skill kits, the lack of build diversity, the abject lack of internal skill synergy, useless abilities, and the out of the blue game breaking nerfs based on external standardization efforts just didn't matter any more. If any of you find that this game is causing you undue stress, that what's happening in game is getting in the way of you actually enjoying life, I implore you, please take a break or do what I did and just move on. Believe me... I've been there. You want to play the game because you still love what it once was but every disappointing patch just drains you of all hope and enthusiasm but a change of pace will do wonders for your perspective and outlook. Don't fall for the sunk cost fallacy. Life is short and its just not worth it to torture yourself like this.

This might be the best advice I've read in this forum. Just the thought that I have to relearn medium weaving is giving me stress.

I have decided to do the same, I will be walking away from it gradually. To be honest the only thing still keeping me active is my scorepush group. If that disbands, I will play other games or focus on other aspirations.

It is also healthy for both you personally and the community in general, to diversify the games you play. Different games will provide you with additional perspective and it might change the way you look at ESO.

Caribou77

_Ahala_ wrote: »

A word of advice from someone who once spent many years in this game as a very active member of the Magden community. This class is likely never going to be perfect. I held out hope for years working with both unofficial and official representatives using my experience with this and every other class in the game to outline major balance issue. I hoped that it would get better, but from the looks of things I guess it never did. I left... a long time ago. The cool thing is, after a couple of months away from this game, things that use to bother me like horrible skill timings, incomplete skill kits, the lack of build diversity, the abject lack of internal skill synergy, useless abilities, and the out of the blue game breaking nerfs based on external standardization efforts just didn't matter any more. If any of you find that this game is causing you undue stress, that what's happening in game is getting in the way of you actually enjoying life, I implore you, please take a break or do what I did and just move on. Believe me... I've been there. You want to play the game because you still love what it once was but every disappointing patch just drains you of all hope and enthusiasm but a change of pace will do wonders for your perspective and outlook. Don't fall for the sunk cost fallacy. Life is short and its just not worth it to torture yourself like this.

Thank you so much for your kind thoughtful and detailed advice, Ahala.

It is exactly what I needed to hear.

ESO_Nightingale

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

The winters revenge destruction staff change is probably in response to the requests over years to make frost mages viable. Not saying I agree with it, but it's pretty clear that's the reasoning

Well, if it was, it'd only be for the frost staff. I don't think the fire or shock staff is necessarily a frost mage item. I think it was an overall decision for their concept of magden.

Even as someone who mostly plays frostden, this isn't a good idea because it just locks needed damage away from people who don't run a destruction staff.

They might be testing this out for future skills. On it’s own, it’s bad. But if it was specific to Frost Staves and then other skills got buffed dependant on equipped weapon it could push toward build diversity.

i definitely think this is a testing ground for future class skill and set changes to help outline more rigid class identities. this implementation certainly isn't amazing, but it if they managed to make it fair for specific weapon types, or provided some other bonus for weapons not of the intended type then you could probably see a lot more people accepting this type of idea.

shadyjane62

_Ahala_ wrote: »

A word of advice from someone who once spent many years in this game as a very active member of the Magden community. This class is likely never going to be perfect. I held out hope for years working with both unofficial and official representatives using my experience with this and every other class in the game to outline major balance issue. I hoped that it would get better, but from the looks of things I guess it never did. I left... a long time ago. The cool thing is, after a couple of months away from this game, things that use to bother me like horrible skill timings, incomplete skill kits, the lack of build diversity, the abject lack of internal skill synergy, useless abilities, and the out of the blue game breaking nerfs based on external standardization efforts just didn't matter any more. If any of you find that this game is causing you undue stress, that what's happening in game is getting in the way of you actually enjoying life, I implore you, please take a break or do what I did and just move on. Believe me... I've been there. You want to play the game because you still love what it once was but every disappointing patch just drains you of all hope and enthusiasm but a change of pace will do wonders for your perspective and outlook. Don't fall for the sunk cost fallacy. Life is short and its just not worth it to torture yourself like this.

I also thank you for your insight. I have been Templar for 8 years and the gutting of my class is very upsetting. I am older and don't take to change as easily as a younger person might. That being said I looked into playing something else and the will to change and learn evidently retired when I did IRL.

I play game for fun. That seems to be the biggest thing nerfed in this patch.

MindOfTheSwarm

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

The winters revenge destruction staff change is probably in response to the requests over years to make frost mages viable. Not saying I agree with it, but it's pretty clear that's the reasoning

Well, if it was, it'd only be for the frost staff. I don't think the fire or shock staff is necessarily a frost mage item. I think it was an overall decision for their concept of magden.

Even as someone who mostly plays frostden, this isn't a good idea because it just locks needed damage away from people who don't run a destruction staff.

They might be testing this out for future skills. On it’s own, it’s bad. But if it was specific to Frost Staves and then other skills got buffed dependant on equipped weapon it could push toward build diversity.

i definitely think this is a testing ground for future class skill and set changes to help outline more rigid class identities. this implementation certainly isn't amazing, but it if they managed to make it fair for specific weapon types, or provided some other bonus for weapons not of the intended type then you could probably see a lot more people accepting this type of idea.

You’re right about the implementation. I think it would be far simpler as I’ve said before, to split the Destro Staves into separate skill lines, add an Arcane or Disease Staff and then the passives could be more specific in what kind of skills they buff. I think build identity can be tackled in 2 ways:

1. Class identity is defined by theme. Such as Animals, nature and Frost/Bleed Damage.

2. Weapon Identity is defined by play style. Single Target, AoE, DoT etc.

By combining the two you can tailor you build into a specific build that feels different to alternatives.

They already do this with to an extent with the Destro Passive as an example. However, by splitting the staves up you can focus on these differences more so. For example: Flame Staff could have more damaging single target DoTs. Lightning Staff have more damaging AoE abilities and Frost Staff could have stronger AoE DoT’s. Arcane could be Single Target Direct. Currently the ‘differences’ between the staves feels like an afterthought, by splitting them up you can make them feel truly unique and give them more character to stand out.

Eira_Rosynhwyr

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

The winters revenge destruction staff change is probably in response to the requests over years to make frost mages viable. Not saying I agree with it, but it's pretty clear that's the reasoning

Well, if it was, it'd only be for the frost staff. I don't think the fire or shock staff is necessarily a frost mage item. I think it was an overall decision for their concept of magden.

Even as someone who mostly plays frostden, this isn't a good idea because it just locks needed damage away from people who don't run a destruction staff.

They might be testing this out for future skills. On it’s own, it’s bad. But if it was specific to Frost Staves and then other skills got buffed dependant on equipped weapon it could push toward build diversity.

i definitely think this is a testing ground for future class skill and set changes to help outline more rigid class identities. this implementation certainly isn't amazing, but it if they managed to make it fair for specific weapon types, or provided some other bonus for weapons not of the intended type then you could probably see a lot more people accepting this type of idea.

You’re right about the implementation. I think it would be far simpler as I’ve said before, to split the Destro Staves into separate skill lines, add an Arcane or Disease Staff and then the passives could be more specific in what kind of skills they buff. I think build identity can be tackled in 2 ways:

1. Class identity is defined by theme. Such as Animals, nature and Frost/Bleed Damage.

2. Weapon Identity is defined by play style. Single Target, AoE, DoT etc.

By combining the two you can tailor you build into a specific build that feels different to alternatives.

They already do this with to an extent with the Destro Passive as an example. However, by splitting the staves up you can focus on these differences more so. For example: Flame Staff could have more damaging single target DoTs. Lightning Staff have more damaging AoE abilities and Frost Staff could have stronger AoE DoT’s. Arcane could be Single Target Direct. Currently the ‘differences’ between the staves feels like an afterthought, by splitting them up you can make them feel truly unique and give them more character to stand out.

I agree with this in general, however right now ZOS is having a hard enough time "balancing" the skills already in the game. This is why you won't hear me begging for a new class anytime soon.

MindOfTheSwarm

Eira_Rosynhwyr wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

The winters revenge destruction staff change is probably in response to the requests over years to make frost mages viable. Not saying I agree with it, but it's pretty clear that's the reasoning

Well, if it was, it'd only be for the frost staff. I don't think the fire or shock staff is necessarily a frost mage item. I think it was an overall decision for their concept of magden.

Even as someone who mostly plays frostden, this isn't a good idea because it just locks needed damage away from people who don't run a destruction staff.

They might be testing this out for future skills. On it’s own, it’s bad. But if it was specific to Frost Staves and then other skills got buffed dependant on equipped weapon it could push toward build diversity.

i definitely think this is a testing ground for future class skill and set changes to help outline more rigid class identities. this implementation certainly isn't amazing, but it if they managed to make it fair for specific weapon types, or provided some other bonus for weapons not of the intended type then you could probably see a lot more people accepting this type of idea.

You’re right about the implementation. I think it would be far simpler as I’ve said before, to split the Destro Staves into separate skill lines, add an Arcane or Disease Staff and then the passives could be more specific in what kind of skills they buff. I think build identity can be tackled in 2 ways:

1. Class identity is defined by theme. Such as Animals, nature and Frost/Bleed Damage.

2. Weapon Identity is defined by play style. Single Target, AoE, DoT etc.

By combining the two you can tailor you build into a specific build that feels different to alternatives.

They already do this with to an extent with the Destro Passive as an example. However, by splitting the staves up you can focus on these differences more so. For example: Flame Staff could have more damaging single target DoTs. Lightning Staff have more damaging AoE abilities and Frost Staff could have stronger AoE DoT’s. Arcane could be Single Target Direct. Currently the ‘differences’ between the staves feels like an afterthought, by splitting them up you can make them feel truly unique and give them more character to stand out.

I agree with this in general, however right now ZOS is having a hard enough time "balancing" the skills already in the game. This is why you won't hear me begging for a new class anytime soon.

I think ZoS struggles with balance because they are trying to do it linearly, hence all the standardisation and everything being the same. If they changed tack and tried for asymmetrical balance ie giving each play style and class different strengths and weaknesses while not allowing anyone class to excel; this would be a better direction. Even if it’s is a little tricker, I think in the long run it would be worth it.

ESO_Nightingale

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

The winters revenge destruction staff change is probably in response to the requests over years to make frost mages viable. Not saying I agree with it, but it's pretty clear that's the reasoning

Well, if it was, it'd only be for the frost staff. I don't think the fire or shock staff is necessarily a frost mage item. I think it was an overall decision for their concept of magden.

Even as someone who mostly plays frostden, this isn't a good idea because it just locks needed damage away from people who don't run a destruction staff.

They might be testing this out for future skills. On it’s own, it’s bad. But if it was specific to Frost Staves and then other skills got buffed dependant on equipped weapon it could push toward build diversity.

i definitely think this is a testing ground for future class skill and set changes to help outline more rigid class identities. this implementation certainly isn't amazing, but it if they managed to make it fair for specific weapon types, or provided some other bonus for weapons not of the intended type then you could probably see a lot more people accepting this type of idea.

You’re right about the implementation. I think it would be far simpler as I’ve said before, to split the Destro Staves into separate skill lines, add an Arcane or Disease Staff and then the passives could be more specific in what kind of skills they buff. I think build identity can be tackled in 2 ways:

1. Class identity is defined by theme. Such as Animals, nature and Frost/Bleed Damage.

2. Weapon Identity is defined by play style. Single Target, AoE, DoT etc.

By combining the two you can tailor you build into a specific build that feels different to alternatives.

They already do this with to an extent with the Destro Passive as an example. However, by splitting the staves up you can focus on these differences more so. For example: Flame Staff could have more damaging single target DoTs. Lightning Staff have more damaging AoE abilities and Frost Staff could have stronger AoE DoT’s. Arcane could be Single Target Direct. Currently the ‘differences’ between the staves feels like an afterthought, by splitting them up you can make them feel truly unique and give them more character to stand out.

i wish they'd say if they were planning this on a larger scale. because it's just utterly bizarre to see this sitting here.

honethiteb16_ESO

I wish I didn't spend the last year beng a Warden main, hoping it will improve. I simply cannot spend just as long playing another class to get back to the levels of my Warden, doing content i've already done, finding all the skillshards/mage books etc again, spending 6 months upgrading all my mount skills, I just can't do that again, it's too demanding of your time....I cancelled my ESO+ last month, If ZoS won't listen, then cancelling my ESO+ might indicate a problem. Such a sad time for ESO.

MindOfTheSwarm

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

The winters revenge destruction staff change is probably in response to the requests over years to make frost mages viable. Not saying I agree with it, but it's pretty clear that's the reasoning

Well, if it was, it'd only be for the frost staff. I don't think the fire or shock staff is necessarily a frost mage item. I think it was an overall decision for their concept of magden.

Even as someone who mostly plays frostden, this isn't a good idea because it just locks needed damage away from people who don't run a destruction staff.

They might be testing this out for future skills. On it’s own, it’s bad. But if it was specific to Frost Staves and then other skills got buffed dependant on equipped weapon it could push toward build diversity.

i definitely think this is a testing ground for future class skill and set changes to help outline more rigid class identities. this implementation certainly isn't amazing, but it if they managed to make it fair for specific weapon types, or provided some other bonus for weapons not of the intended type then you could probably see a lot more people accepting this type of idea.

You’re right about the implementation. I think it would be far simpler as I’ve said before, to split the Destro Staves into separate skill lines, add an Arcane or Disease Staff and then the passives could be more specific in what kind of skills they buff. I think build identity can be tackled in 2 ways:

1. Class identity is defined by theme. Such as Animals, nature and Frost/Bleed Damage.

2. Weapon Identity is defined by play style. Single Target, AoE, DoT etc.

By combining the two you can tailor you build into a specific build that feels different to alternatives.

They already do this with to an extent with the Destro Passive as an example. However, by splitting the staves up you can focus on these differences more so. For example: Flame Staff could have more damaging single target DoTs. Lightning Staff have more damaging AoE abilities and Frost Staff could have stronger AoE DoT’s. Arcane could be Single Target Direct. Currently the ‘differences’ between the staves feels like an afterthought, by splitting them up you can make them feel truly unique and give them more character to stand out.

i wish they'd say if they were planning this on a larger scale. because it's just utterly bizarre to see this sitting here.

I agree. This is why the differences feel so slight that they don't matter... only they do. Inferno Staff is undisputed BiS for single target and about as good for AoE, but this is because the disparity between the different staves is not great enough for the other two to make 'real' differences outside of a status effects or two and certain effects that don't really do enough to make them feel distinct.

ESO_Nightingale

honethiteb16_ESO wrote: »

I wish I didn't spend the last year beng a Warden main, hoping it will improve. I simply cannot spend just as long playing another class to get back to the levels of my Warden, doing content i've already done, finding all the skillshards/mage books etc again, spending 6 months upgrading all my mount skills, I just can't do that again, it's too demanding of your time....I cancelled my ESO+ last month, If ZoS won't listen, then cancelling my ESO+ might indicate a problem. Such a sad time for ESO.

if this is stressing you out a lot like it has been with me and many in the community it's definitely worth thinking about if you want to play the game or not. if you don't think you will like me, it's a good idea to cancel the sub, at least for a while. no point in paying money if you're not going to get any use out of the money spent. i've already cancelled my sub for the next little while, but if the game improves i'll be sure to purchase it again because i got a lot of use out of it when i played.

ramdrop

At least playing a magcro will be similar.. rip main