ZOS, Please don't do this to warden

CapnCrunchYT

first off nice job on the nocturnals ploy change, pvp disaster averted whew..

My only concern is with this round of patch notes is the fact that you have accidentally nerfed what is already the worst class in pvp. No one is going to use the 2nd burst on deep fissure. PVP is all about burst timing, so you need to line up that first burst from deep fissure with your combo. Having the first burst from deep fissure do 3k less damage is going to just put wardens even further behind. Please consider just changing deep fissure back to the way it is on live.

Brahma_Br

Agree! Not fair nerf our best burst skill. Why not change? 1st shalk hits more than 2nd?

CapnCrunchYT

Brahma_Br wrote: »

Agree! Not fair nerf our best burst skill. Why not change? 1st shalk hits more than 2nd?

yes this!! It makes more sense for those who recast it every 3 seconds in pvp. you're missing out on the "free" lower damage hit but will still get the initial more damage hit.

Faltasë

Also they still havent acknowledged the advanced species change. They are going to kill warden.

Urzigurumash

CapnCrunchYT wrote: »

Brahma_Br wrote: »

Agree! Not fair nerf our best burst skill. Why not change? 1st shalk hits more than 2nd?

yes this!! It makes more sense for those who recast it every 3 seconds in pvp. you're missing out on the "free" lower damage hit but will still get the initial more damage hit.

I can see the logic in that, but what would you rather have, what do you think would be more powerful in PvP:

1. 100 Damage dealt every 3 seconds
2. 400 Damage dealt every 9 seconds

I can see the potential behind Option 2. Know what I mean? More burst, but also more delayed.

We simply will not get as high a tooltip every 3 seconds as we could every get 9 seconds, that wouldn't be balanced at all. Think more Graverobber on Necro or Leap on DK, what if Graverobber's cooldown was only 5 seconds and Leap only cost 40 Ult? They would deal less damage.

Big difference there is, Necro and DK have other powerful skills to use in between or with Graverobbers and Leaps. Warden, not so much.

MentalxHammer

Fun fact, after the initial 8% damage nerf, then the subsequent 14% damage nerf to the first hit of scorch, it now does a little over 7% LESS damage than a single dizzying swing. The wardens hallmark burst ability does less damage than a spammable…

Urzigurumash

MentalxHammer wrote: »

Fun fact, after the initial 8% damage nerf, then the subsequent 14% damage nerf to the first hit of scorch, it now does a little over 7% LESS damage than a single dizzying swing. The wardens hallmark burst ability does less damage than a spammable…

It's AoE though, and delayed. Point taken but they're not comparable skills. Of course so long as Warden has so little else to rely on besides Scorch I want only an increase in its overall damage than on live.

Dizzy Swing needs a big buff to its damage and an increase of its cast time to find its way back into competitive PvP, in my opinion.

auz

MentalxHammer wrote: »

Fun fact, after the initial 8% damage nerf, then the subsequent 14% damage nerf to the first hit of scorch, it now does a little over 7% LESS damage than a single dizzying swing. The wardens hallmark burst ability does less damage than a spammable…

That makes about as much sense as crystal weapon and bound armaments doing less damage than a spammable.

taugrim

auz wrote: »

MentalxHammer wrote: »

Fun fact, after the initial 8% damage nerf, then the subsequent 14% damage nerf to the first hit of scorch, it now does a little over 7% LESS damage than a single dizzying swing. The wardens hallmark burst ability does less damage than a spammable…

That makes about as much sense as crystal weapon and bound armaments doing less damage than a spammable.

I don't like that CW was buffed needlessly, then nerfed, but it can be applied to light attacks from max range, right?

Dizzying is a melee ability.

Scorch is a short-range skirmishing ability.

Dizzying and Scorch carry a much higher risk profile to use - you have to be much closer to opponents.

CapnCrunchYT

Urzigurumash wrote: »

CapnCrunchYT wrote: »

Brahma_Br wrote: »

Agree! Not fair nerf our best burst skill. Why not change? 1st shalk hits more than 2nd?

yes this!! It makes more sense for those who recast it every 3 seconds in pvp. you're missing out on the "free" lower damage hit but will still get the initial more damage hit.

I can see the logic in that, but what would you rather have, what do you think would be more powerful in PvP:

1. 100 Damage dealt every 3 seconds
2. 400 Damage dealt every 9 seconds

I can see the potential behind Option 2. Know what I mean? More burst, but also more delayed.

We simply will not get as high a tooltip every 3 seconds as we could every get 9 seconds, that wouldn't be balanced at all. Think more Graverobber on Necro or Leap on DK, what if Graverobber's cooldown was only 5 seconds and Leap only cost 40 Ult? They would deal less damage.

Big difference there is, Necro and DK have other powerful skills to use in between or with Graverobbers and Leaps. Warden, not so much.

I would honestly take the way deep fissure is on live any day, I just dont see a use for the 2nd burst. Give me 1 burst and reduce the cost so i can recast it every 3 seconds on my own.

Urzigurumash

CapnCrunchYT wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

CapnCrunchYT wrote: »

Brahma_Br wrote: »

Agree! Not fair nerf our best burst skill. Why not change? 1st shalk hits more than 2nd?

yes this!! It makes more sense for those who recast it every 3 seconds in pvp. you're missing out on the "free" lower damage hit but will still get the initial more damage hit.

I can see the logic in that, but what would you rather have, what do you think would be more powerful in PvP:

1. 100 Damage dealt every 3 seconds
2. 400 Damage dealt every 9 seconds

I can see the potential behind Option 2. Know what I mean? More burst, but also more delayed.

We simply will not get as high a tooltip every 3 seconds as we could every get 9 seconds, that wouldn't be balanced at all. Think more Graverobber on Necro or Leap on DK, what if Graverobber's cooldown was only 5 seconds and Leap only cost 40 Ult? They would deal less damage.

Big difference there is, Necro and DK have other powerful skills to use in between or with Graverobbers and Leaps. Warden, not so much.

I would honestly take the way deep fissure is on live any day, I just dont see a use for the 2nd burst. Give me 1 burst and reduce the cost so i can recast it every 3 seconds on my own.

A stronger 2nd hit opens up the option of stacking more damage into 1 GCD. Not only with more damage occurring during that moment the 2nd hit lands but it also gives you an extra GCD during the intervening 6 seconds. So if the 2nd hit is strong enough, it could be an objective power up in PvP.

From the perspective of burst anyhow, maybe not pressure. But it's a burst skill.

MindOfTheSwarm

CapnCrunchYT wrote: »

first off nice job on the nocturnals ploy change, pvp disaster averted whew..

My only concern is with this round of patch notes is the fact that you have accidentally nerfed what is already the worst class in pvp. No one is going to use the 2nd burst on deep fissure. PVP is all about burst timing, so you need to line up that first burst from deep fissure with your combo. Having the first burst from deep fissure do 3k less damage is going to just put wardens even further behind. Please consider just changing deep fissure back to the way it is on live.

Half the problem is that PvP is all about burst timing. There is no room for any other play style. No room for DoT's, no room for zone control. Kind of sad really.

Urzigurumash

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

CapnCrunchYT wrote: »

first off nice job on the nocturnals ploy change, pvp disaster averted whew..

My only concern is with this round of patch notes is the fact that you have accidentally nerfed what is already the worst class in pvp. No one is going to use the 2nd burst on deep fissure. PVP is all about burst timing, so you need to line up that first burst from deep fissure with your combo. Having the first burst from deep fissure do 3k less damage is going to just put wardens even further behind. Please consider just changing deep fissure back to the way it is on live.

Half the problem is that PvP is all about burst timing. There is no room for any other play style. No room for DoT's, no room for zone control. Kind of sad really.

More room can be made for Pressure Tanks, and MagDen is an excellent candidate for this to be part of the classes' potential in high level PvP. As is DK, of course. That topic is close to irrelevant though until we see how DoT changes pan out, I can't tell from the notes alone.

I still have the vision of the DLC classes being more versatile but less specializable than any of the basegame classes, which, in my opinion, should be optimizable only within a fairly narrow, archetypical role.

auz

taugrim wrote: »

auz wrote: »

MentalxHammer wrote: »

Fun fact, after the initial 8% damage nerf, then the subsequent 14% damage nerf to the first hit of scorch, it now does a little over 7% LESS damage than a single dizzying swing. The wardens hallmark burst ability does less damage than a spammable…

That makes about as much sense as crystal weapon and bound armaments doing less damage than a spammable.

I don't like that CW was buffed needlessly, then nerfed, but it can be applied to light attacks from max range, right?

Dizzying is a melee ability.

Scorch is a short-range skirmishing ability.

Dizzying and Scorch carry a much higher risk profile to use - you have to be much closer to opponents.

The problem with cw is you are using a gcd to do less damage than a spammable. And with BA you use 2 gcds to do less damage than a spammable. These have since had their damage upped a little in the most recent patch notes.

But the point of the statement was really just to show the lack of understanding shown by devs in regards to the changes. These all seem to be changes for the sake of changes without any real appreciation of the application of them in game.

merpins

14% nerf followed by a 20% buff; just make it 3% and 3% increase as compared to live, rather than splitting the damage awkwardly like that.

Lughlongarm

merpins wrote: »

14% nerf followed by a 20% buff; just make it 3% and 3% increase as compared to live, rather than splitting the damage awkwardly like that.

I have done some additional testing to Deep Fissure and this skill is better than implied. At first I thought that the skill's base damage was nerfed by 14% and the second tick just brings the damage back to what it was during week 1-3 of the PTS. But no, there is an hidden damage value - let's call it "X" If your base hidden value for this skill is 10k, the first blast will do - 8.6k and the second will do 12k damage(almost40% difference). The second tick is the real burst. Moreover, many players don't even realize that the penetration debuff does not apply to the damage proc itself. When you first cast deep Fissure, the skill will first apply the damage and only after the debuff, so it means you basically lose some damage. With this double proc combo, the big burst will have a good chance to land while the debuff already been applied(and for one cast).

Regarding Sub Assault - I reviewed the the PTS notes again and realized that the skill is completely bugged right now. Not only it procs at 3/8 sec(and not 3/6), its damage is also based on X*0.86 and not X. I believe they massed up somewhere along the way. If X is not part to the skill's core damage measurement, why everything is being calculated around it?(I don't think any other skill works like that).

I think the Core skill(Scorch) suppose to have the base damage of X with 3/9 cast time.

Sub Assault will also have the X damage value with 3/6 cast time.
Deep Fissure - will have X*0.86/X*1.2 damage values with 3/9 cast time.

SO overall, if this is how it was intended, I can stand behind these changes.

Aldoss

Lughlongarm wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

14% nerf followed by a 20% buff; just make it 3% and 3% increase as compared to live, rather than splitting the damage awkwardly like that.

I have done some additional testing to Deep Fissure and this skill is better than implied. At first I thought that the skill's base damage was nerfed by 14% and the second tick just brings the damage back to what it was during week 1-3 of the PTS. But no, there is an hidden damage value - let's call it "X" If your base hidden value for this skill is 10k, the first blast will do - 8.6k and the second will do 12k damage(almost40% difference). The second tick is the real burst. Moreover, many players don't even realize that the penetration debuff does not apply to the damage proc itself. When you first cast deep Fissure, the skill will first apply the damage and only after the debuff, so it means you basically lose some damage. With this double proc combo, the big burst will have a good chance to land while the debuff already been applied(and for one cast).

Regarding Sub Assault - I reviewed the the PTS notes again and realized that the skill is completely

I already replied to you in the other thread on this exact comment and rather than continuing to double post, I'll just say that I disagree with your optimism at how likely the 9second proc will hit with breach applied.

Breach last 10 seconds after application. Application is at the 3 sec mark, if a hit was successful.

If you hit the first debuff hit, but miss the proc hit, you must land the second debuff hit. If you miss that too, you've now.lost the entire purpose of the skill, and have to recast. Missing the first hit makes it a requirement to retry because otherwise your proc hit is a wasted investment.

In that scenario, you've now.spent 12 seconds (6 seconds trying to get the proc hit, but missing it, 3 seconds to get the debuff hit, missing it, and another 3 seconds to try again with the debuff hit, to ultimately spend another 6 seconds to land your first successful proc hit).

In total, that's 18 seconds of time to try to get a skill to land that hits for about the same as BB does automatically every 2.5 seconds.

Does that really seem worth it to you? You can say "well don't miss", but any.magden will chime in that sometimes there's just no skilling this ability to land. There's too many variables in a.battle that work against us.

At least on live, if I miss my debuff hit, I just recast it and have another shot at lining up a combo 3 seconds later. Waiting 3x as long for 15% more damage than live is really a pitiful attempt by the devs. I think they can come up with better, but they clearly don't have any time to devote to this.

I'd rather have what we have on live than this.

Lughlongarm

Aldoss wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

14% nerf followed by a 20% buff; just make it 3% and 3% increase as compared to live, rather than splitting the damage awkwardly like that.

I have done some additional testing to Deep Fissure and this skill is better than implied. At first I thought that the skill's base damage was nerfed by 14% and the second tick just brings the damage back to what it was during week 1-3 of the PTS. But no, there is an hidden damage value - let's call it "X" If your base hidden value for this skill is 10k, the first blast will do - 8.6k and the second will do 12k damage(almost40% difference). The second tick is the real burst. Moreover, many players don't even realize that the penetration debuff does not apply to the damage proc itself. When you first cast deep Fissure, the skill will first apply the damage and only after the debuff, so it means you basically lose some damage. With this double proc combo, the big burst will have a good chance to land while the debuff already been applied(and for one cast).

Regarding Sub Assault - I reviewed the the PTS notes again and realized that the skill is completely

I already replied to you in the other thread on this exact comment and rather than continuing to double post, I'll just say that I disagree with your optimism at how likely the 9second proc will hit with breach applied.

Breach last 10 seconds after application. Application is at the 3 sec mark, if a hit was successful.

If you hit the first debuff hit, but miss the proc hit, you must land the second debuff hit. If you miss that too, you've now.lost the entire purpose of the skill, and have to recast. Missing the first hit makes it a requirement to retry because otherwise your proc hit is a wasted investment.

In that scenario, you've now.spent 12 seconds (6 seconds trying to get the proc hit, but missing it, 3 seconds to get the debuff hit, missing it, and another 3 seconds to try again with the debuff hit, to ultimately spend another 6 seconds to land your first successful proc hit).

In total, that's 18 seconds of time to try to get a skill to land that hits for about the same as BB does automatically every 2.5 seconds.

Does that really seem worth it to you? You can say "well don't miss", but any.magden will chime in that sometimes there's just no skilling this ability to land. There's too many variables in a.battle that work against us.

At least on live, if I miss my debuff hit, I just recast it and have another shot at lining up a combo 3 seconds later. Waiting 3x as long for 15% more damage than live is really a pitiful attempt by the devs. I think they can come up with better, but they clearly don't have any time to devote to this.

I'd rather have what we have on live than this.

Hi, first of all you need to chill. I was not replying to you but rather to another player making the same false assumption related to DF overall damage, that my comment specifically tackles. Its not a double posting for the sake of double posting.

as for you assumptions regarding the rotational use of DF, I assume you are refereeing to PVP. In PVP you don't waste 12 sec, some of the best players sit around most of the time on back bar waiting for the right time to attack. Having the DF as flexible autopilot could a boon to set up complicated combos. Its also better for auto pilot pressure while you are busy buffing and healing. If you miss the first tick you can re-press the skill. The burst potential now is higher compared to live. Will it be actually effective? I cannot say, not enough players on PTS, no one is actually dueling and we cannot do BGs or cyrodiil so its all theoretical talks.

Caribou77

Agree. 10 seconds is an Ice Age in pvp, especially for lining up a scorch hit.

It’s almost like the devs think this skill is a passive hit, akin to haunting curse.

It takes active skill the entire duration to line it up on someone jumping and dodge rolling around.

10 seconds of doing this against a good player simply will not work. This is absurd, and no one who has actually pvp’d a magden would propose this.

I really believe there is no dev who plays magden because it’s too slow, weak, and punishing. Throw some birds in pvp dev, see what happens.