Warden Changes Week 4 - Scorch and Cutting Dive, and a changing Warden.

Lughlongarm

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

@Ratzkifal thanks, I amended that mistake. I remember reading something where someone said it was the only aoe direct dmg skill that could be roll dodged, and I just believed them.

@Lughlongarm yes, that is how the current pts patch changed DF, but a lot of us are commenting about the double nerf that was processed on warden and this particular skill. They first nerfed Advanced Species, which lowered the tooltip damage, then they dropped the damage by 8%. The current iteration of DF now does 4755 dmg at 3 seconds, then 6604 at 9 seconds.

On live, this skill hits for 5621 every 3 seconds.

So the new math is:

Live 5621 x 3 = 16,863
PTS 4755 + 6604 = 11,359

6604 is a 15% buff over live BUT at the cost of a 9 second window on a skill that misses very frequently, even by practised magdens. Missing that window is absolutely devastating and its a huge nerf to sustained pressure. This is a nerf disguised as a buff. It sounds great on paper. It's awful to use.

Feel free to check my numbers. I'd love to be proven wrong, but even then, numbers don't change how awful this new 9 second window feels. I won't do it.

@Urzigurumash read above. The 2nd hit isn't as great as you're imagining it to be. For 9 seconds of build up for a proc that you have little control over, it better hit for as much as the bb + gr combo you're talking about, but it doesn't come close. At least a magcro gets to choose "I'm going to pop this proc". A magden MUST land that hit when it goes off. God forbid you reset the timer at 8 seconds by accident. God forbid you get stunned facing the wrong direction at 8 seconds.

Hi, we need to split the discussion.

My comment is related specifically to the current functionality of DF on the PTS which many of comments missed(that the spread between the first tick and the second tick is 20% and not the actual ~38%). It is also a follow up from me asking(I think on another thread) what's the deal with the 14% to SA(the stamina morph), I'm now like 90% convinced this is a bug.

Regarding Warden overall balance, my POV is mostly related to PvP , so I don't see "Advanced Specie" nerf as a big deal, and I don't use DF on CD, only perhaps during a burst window, but usually a killing combo will involve only 1 DF+ulti+spammble+stun+setup skill like clench or something. With the new rotation, the he first tick is for pressure and the debuff the second tick is to prepare a killing setup. Now I have 6 sec and less GSD to worry about so a lot of breathing room to try and catch the target. Sure its something I will have to test more and try to get used to but no one can really comment on it ATM because there is 0 ppl on PTS to even practice on.

Regarding PVE - The numbers I see for parses are bad, I like many of ideas on forums regarding how to fix it. When it comes to Scorch specifically, I think SA supposed to be the PVE skill(If we ignore the 14% nerf which I think is a bug). Just constant damage every 3 sec.

they're roughly the same dps in pve. deep fissure is defacto better.

Yes, because based on my assumption which I explained, SA is bugged ATM so its roughly the same DPS as DF. After fix its should take the lead for consistent damage.

sub assault still got nerfed from live when it's not even making the class overperform, so not sure what that's about.

Neither do I, the 8% damage nerf to core skill was presented during week one, I mostly analyze week 4 changes.

i don't think anyone knows. they even said that they knew that our damage was lacking, and yet they nerfed nearly every single of our damage kit but piercing cold and dive lol

bear, advanced species, cutting dive, scorch and it's morphs, fetcher infection and winter's revenge. oh but they added arctic blast which is not unusable anymore so that totally makes up for it

Hope for more changes on week 5, I saw many good ideas for improvement.

ESO_Nightingale

Lughlongarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

@Ratzkifal thanks, I amended that mistake. I remember reading something where someone said it was the only aoe direct dmg skill that could be roll dodged, and I just believed them.

@Lughlongarm yes, that is how the current pts patch changed DF, but a lot of us are commenting about the double nerf that was processed on warden and this particular skill. They first nerfed Advanced Species, which lowered the tooltip damage, then they dropped the damage by 8%. The current iteration of DF now does 4755 dmg at 3 seconds, then 6604 at 9 seconds.

On live, this skill hits for 5621 every 3 seconds.

So the new math is:

Live 5621 x 3 = 16,863
PTS 4755 + 6604 = 11,359

6604 is a 15% buff over live BUT at the cost of a 9 second window on a skill that misses very frequently, even by practised magdens. Missing that window is absolutely devastating and its a huge nerf to sustained pressure. This is a nerf disguised as a buff. It sounds great on paper. It's awful to use.

Feel free to check my numbers. I'd love to be proven wrong, but even then, numbers don't change how awful this new 9 second window feels. I won't do it.

@Urzigurumash read above. The 2nd hit isn't as great as you're imagining it to be. For 9 seconds of build up for a proc that you have little control over, it better hit for as much as the bb + gr combo you're talking about, but it doesn't come close. At least a magcro gets to choose "I'm going to pop this proc". A magden MUST land that hit when it goes off. God forbid you reset the timer at 8 seconds by accident. God forbid you get stunned facing the wrong direction at 8 seconds.

Hi, we need to split the discussion.

My comment is related specifically to the current functionality of DF on the PTS which many of comments missed(that the spread between the first tick and the second tick is 20% and not the actual ~38%). It is also a follow up from me asking(I think on another thread) what's the deal with the 14% to SA(the stamina morph), I'm now like 90% convinced this is a bug.

Regarding Warden overall balance, my POV is mostly related to PvP , so I don't see "Advanced Specie" nerf as a big deal, and I don't use DF on CD, only perhaps during a burst window, but usually a killing combo will involve only 1 DF+ulti+spammble+stun+setup skill like clench or something. With the new rotation, the he first tick is for pressure and the debuff the second tick is to prepare a killing setup. Now I have 6 sec and less GSD to worry about so a lot of breathing room to try and catch the target. Sure its something I will have to test more and try to get used to but no one can really comment on it ATM because there is 0 ppl on PTS to even practice on.

Regarding PVE - The numbers I see for parses are bad, I like many of ideas on forums regarding how to fix it. When it comes to Scorch specifically, I think SA supposed to be the PVE skill(If we ignore the 14% nerf which I think is a bug). Just constant damage every 3 sec.

they're roughly the same dps in pve. deep fissure is defacto better.

Yes, because based on my assumption which I explained, SA is bugged ATM so its roughly the same DPS as DF. After fix its should take the lead for consistent damage.

sub assault still got nerfed from live when it's not even making the class overperform, so not sure what that's about.

Neither do I, the 8% damage nerf to core skill was presented during week one, I mostly analyze week 4 changes.

i don't think anyone knows. they even said that they knew that our damage was lacking, and yet they nerfed nearly every single of our damage kit but piercing cold and dive lol

bear, advanced species, cutting dive, scorch and it's morphs, fetcher infection and winter's revenge. oh but they added arctic blast which is not unusable anymore so that totally makes up for it

Hope for more changes on week 5, I saw many good ideas for improvement.

at this point, for me this is the last chance zos to make things solid again, and i'm really not sure that anything will change given the time we have left.

Winstonshead

Now there are no features of classes.
All have same skills but with different animation and color.
Wardens had unique spam-skill with stack mechanic, now it's just another spam-ability like others

Aldoss

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

@Ratzkifal thanks, I amended that mistake. I remember reading something where someone said it was the only aoe direct dmg skill that could be roll dodged, and I just believed them.

@Lughlongarm yes, that is how the current pts patch changed DF, but a lot of us are commenting about the double nerf that was processed on warden and this particular skill. They first nerfed Advanced Species, which lowered the tooltip damage, then they dropped the damage by 8%. The current iteration of DF now does 4755 dmg at 3 seconds, then 6604 at 9 seconds.

On live, this skill hits for 5621 every 3 seconds.

So the new math is:

Live 5621 x 3 = 16,863
PTS 4755 + 6604 = 11,359

6604 is a 15% buff over live BUT at the cost of a 9 second window on a skill that misses very frequently, even by practised magdens. Missing that window is absolutely devastating and its a huge nerf to sustained pressure. This is a nerf disguised as a buff. It sounds great on paper. It's awful to use.

Feel free to check my numbers. I'd love to be proven wrong, but even then, numbers don't change how awful this new 9 second window feels. I won't do it.

@Urzigurumash read above. The 2nd hit isn't as great as you're imagining it to be. For 9 seconds of build up for a proc that you have little control over, it better hit for as much as the bb + gr combo you're talking about, but it doesn't come close. At least a magcro gets to choose "I'm going to pop this proc". A magden MUST land that hit when it goes off. God forbid you reset the timer at 8 seconds by accident. God forbid you get stunned facing the wrong direction at 8 seconds.

Hi, we need to split the discussion.

My comment is related specifically to the current functionality of DF on the PTS which many of comments missed(that the spread between the first tick and the second tick is 20% and not the actual ~38%). It is also a follow up from me asking(I think on another thread) what's the deal with the 14% to SA(the stamina morph), I'm now like 90% convinced this is a bug.

Regarding Warden overall balance, my POV is mostly related to PvP , so I don't see "Advanced Specie" nerf as a big deal, and I don't use DF on CD, only perhaps during a burst window, but usually a killing combo will involve only 1 DF+ulti+spammble+stun+setup skill like clench or something. With the new rotation, the he first tick is for pressure and the debuff the second tick is to prepare a killing setup. Now I have 6 sec and less GSD to worry about so a lot of breathing room to try and catch the target. Sure its something I will have to test more and try to get used to but no one can really comment on it ATM because there is 0 ppl on PTS to even practice on.

Regarding PVE - The numbers I see for parses are bad, I like many of ideas on forums regarding how to fix it. When it comes to Scorch specifically, I think SA supposed to be the PVE skill(If we ignore the 14% nerf which I think is a bug). Just constant damage every 3 sec.

I only PvP and magden is my main. We have the same perspective.

Advanced Species being pen is still a nerf. For it to not be a PvP nerf, the value would need to be 1,320 pen for each companion skill on the bar. Then they nerfed our primary, class defining skill...

On the worst performing PvP DD class in the game.

Knowing that the pen is even more useless in PvE means it shouldn't have been touched. Magden can already get 15k+ pen on live without really trying.

Scorch needed a buff. I'd argue the second burst in DF is much closer to where it should be now, but still falls short.

It sounds like you're fine with ZOS nerfing us 30%, but then buffing us by 25% and asking us to be thankful. I'm not.

Scorch deserves that 15% buff. No strings attached. No nerf to the initial hit, no changes to our beloved timing. 15% buff, minimum. Same set up. Same timing. 15% more damage.

We're a meme in cyro. This scorch change will only perpetuate that, not fix it.

ESO_Nightingale

Aldoss wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

@Ratzkifal thanks, I amended that mistake. I remember reading something where someone said it was the only aoe direct dmg skill that could be roll dodged, and I just believed them.

@Lughlongarm yes, that is how the current pts patch changed DF, but a lot of us are commenting about the double nerf that was processed on warden and this particular skill. They first nerfed Advanced Species, which lowered the tooltip damage, then they dropped the damage by 8%. The current iteration of DF now does 4755 dmg at 3 seconds, then 6604 at 9 seconds.

On live, this skill hits for 5621 every 3 seconds.

So the new math is:

Live 5621 x 3 = 16,863
PTS 4755 + 6604 = 11,359

6604 is a 15% buff over live BUT at the cost of a 9 second window on a skill that misses very frequently, even by practised magdens. Missing that window is absolutely devastating and its a huge nerf to sustained pressure. This is a nerf disguised as a buff. It sounds great on paper. It's awful to use.

Feel free to check my numbers. I'd love to be proven wrong, but even then, numbers don't change how awful this new 9 second window feels. I won't do it.

@Urzigurumash read above. The 2nd hit isn't as great as you're imagining it to be. For 9 seconds of build up for a proc that you have little control over, it better hit for as much as the bb + gr combo you're talking about, but it doesn't come close. At least a magcro gets to choose "I'm going to pop this proc". A magden MUST land that hit when it goes off. God forbid you reset the timer at 8 seconds by accident. God forbid you get stunned facing the wrong direction at 8 seconds.

Hi, we need to split the discussion.

My comment is related specifically to the current functionality of DF on the PTS which many of comments missed(that the spread between the first tick and the second tick is 20% and not the actual ~38%). It is also a follow up from me asking(I think on another thread) what's the deal with the 14% to SA(the stamina morph), I'm now like 90% convinced this is a bug.

Regarding Warden overall balance, my POV is mostly related to PvP , so I don't see "Advanced Specie" nerf as a big deal, and I don't use DF on CD, only perhaps during a burst window, but usually a killing combo will involve only 1 DF+ulti+spammble+stun+setup skill like clench or something. With the new rotation, the he first tick is for pressure and the debuff the second tick is to prepare a killing setup. Now I have 6 sec and less GSD to worry about so a lot of breathing room to try and catch the target. Sure its something I will have to test more and try to get used to but no one can really comment on it ATM because there is 0 ppl on PTS to even practice on.

Regarding PVE - The numbers I see for parses are bad, I like many of ideas on forums regarding how to fix it. When it comes to Scorch specifically, I think SA supposed to be the PVE skill(If we ignore the 14% nerf which I think is a bug). Just constant damage every 3 sec.

I only PvP and magden is my main. We have the same perspective.

Advanced Species being pen is still a nerf. For it to not be a PvP nerf, the value would need to be 1,320 pen for each companion skill on the bar. Then they nerfed our primary, class defining skill...

On the worst performing PvP DD class in the game.

Knowing that the pen is even more useless in PvE means it shouldn't have been touched. Magden can already get 15k+ pen on live without really trying.

Scorch needed a buff. I'd argue the second burst in DF is much closer to where it should be now, but still falls short.

It sounds like you're fine with ZOS nerfing us 30%, but then buffing us by 25% and asking us to be thankful. I'm not.

Scorch deserves that 15% buff. No strings attached. No nerf to the initial hit, no changes to our beloved timing. 15% buff, minimum. Same set up. Same timing. 15% more damage.

We're a meme in cyro. This scorch change will only perpetuate that, not fix it.

No-one actually asked for a complete change to that passive at all. We didn't even get a developer note to tell us why they did it. It was just there.

ESO_Nightingale

Aldoss wrote: »

I want to be as calm as possible when writing posts like this, but I'm just really getting overwhelmed at how crazy these ideas are and how they're ever making their way out of the brainstorming sessions I assume ZOS has before implementing PTS changes.

The Dev Comments



While I'm thankful for the inclusion of these comments, the statements made within them are becoming increasingly insulting.

Warden is a "burst class" only because Wrobel said it was. That doesn't make us a burst class. Plars, Magdks, Sorcs, and Nightblades are burst classes by any definition. We all have access to delayed burst.

Dive is not delayed burst. It's just bad.

Scorch is the definition of delayed burst, but it's no different from every other class' delayed burst tool.

The developer comments are really important opportunities for us wardens to actually understand how ZOS sees us, and unfortunately, the recent comments have proven to us that no one at ZOS knows what a warden is, let alone what it needs to stop being the worst PvP DD in the game.

Delayed Burst

While I'm appreciate that scorch was looked at this week, the idea implemented is just absolutely poorly thought out. It's an idea that makes you go "oh man, what if we did this... " and it sounds so cool, but then you step back and think about all angles and perspectives and realize that it can never work, and then you scrap the idea.

How did it ever make it out of the brainstorming session that warden's burst should be locked behind a 9 second window?! If the ability were targetable, and only guaranteed if not purged, then you might have something there.

As is, this is an awful burden to put onto the already worst performing PvP DD in the game. Aiming any shalk hit is a challenge, but forcing us to now operate on the single longest delayed burst window in the game for a payout that barely competes with Purifying Light, Molten Whip, Haunting Curse, or Assassin's Will is disappointing, to say it as politely as I can.

As a NB, nothing is more infuriating than watching your target roll dodge that bow proc, but as infuriating as that is, it's a scenario that can be planned around, and still does absurd amounts of damage for the time cost that goes into it.

Watching my 9sec shalk miss is now the most devastating experience of any class. Watching it hit feels like winning the jackpot on a scratch off, but only to learn that the jackpot winnings is $20. The damage just isn't there.

This skill needs a complete rework, and that's unfortunately not possible now that you have no time to properly implement it. Give us the Falcon's Swiftness and Arctic change, do what you're intent on doing with ground and sticky dots, perpetuate the status quo of magden being bottom tier in PvP for yet another 3 month cycle, and call it a day.

I frankly have no interest in relearning this skill when it still means that magden is bottom tier. Go back to the drawing board. I'll go play some other games while you figure this out. From my discussions with other magdens, I'm not alone in this thinking.

Nightingale's Propositions

These are level headed, well thought out changes that should have been implemented years ago. It has continuously made 0 sense that stamdens gain no benefit from their skill morphs from class passives. It makes 0 sense that the "Masters of ice" have barely any frost damage skills.

Warden is a frost caster/bleed bruiser. That identity gives the class purpose and uniformity moving forward to better help balance its skills.

Scorch

Deep Fissure needs to deal ice damage and Sub Assault needs to deal bleed. This has to be done.

Major Breach has to be removed from DF and needs to be added to the base skill. There's no reason for it to exist on the one that already does more damage because it is the "chosen one" by our passives while the other isn't. Put Major Breach on the base and give DF the Minor buff. Stamdens can already rely on sundered to give them decent uptime on Minor.

Deep Fissure 100% CAN NOT become a 9 second burst window without being altered to become essentially the most overpowered, juiced skill in the game.

ZOS says they want numbers, not anecdotes. Here you go:





Assassin's Will has a power/sec of 1585.2, making it the single most hard hitting skill in the game that isn't an ultimate. It takes 5 seconds to charge, but can be withheld and used "at will" by the caster for when that player decides to expel it.

If you want to talk about DF being standardized against Haunting Curse, there you go. Haunting Curse now has a power/sec value TWICE that of the 9 second DF hit AND IT CANNOT MISS. Technically this also hits multiple targets, but I'm considering the application of the skill and not the bonus damage that the skill provides as its special characteristic.

I just honestly don't understand what's happening at ZOS HQ anymore. Everyone is saying that they're guilty of balancing these skills based on a spreadsheet. So I just quantified them in a spreadsheet and I'm left totally lost at how anyone could look at this and say "yeah, that'll totally solve the warden problem!".

We need a miracle next Monday and I have no faith that we'll get it. Magden will remain as the meme that it is for yet another 3 month cycle.


EDIT - I guess I should give a proposal...

Revert DF back to 3 seconds and drop its power budget back to the same value that Haunting Curse has, 4906. That gives us a power/sec that puts it at the top of the charts for power/sec (1635.3), but is balanced around all the drawbacks that the skill currently suffers from (Major Evasion, missing, locked in timer).

Magdens are already used to casting this skill every 3 seconds. Why change it? We like this play style. Don't change it, just make it worth the struggle to actually make it land.

This change does not make magden okay. We are still far from okay, but this PTS patch has done something so defeating that no one in their right mind will ever consider playing magden DD again. You are killing this class. Please stop.

Thanks for providing more numbers

MashmalloMan

IAVITNI wrote: »

This design works for curse because Curse is a "sticky" ability and the rest of the sorc kit has great synergy with delayed burst (even if a third of it isn't used).

Whats funny is it's a bad example to model off of. Waiting for the second tick of Haunting Curse which takes 7.5s instead of this 6s is "Hauntingly" rare for very little pay off, in fact no pay off for waiting that long other than "free" damage.

It's fine in 1v1s, but in practice, a Sorc will apply Haunting Curse when they're prepared to do their burst. Waiting and timing for the second tick is usually coincidence more than anything else. Can't tell you how many times I see the 2nd burst's damage tick on an enemy I'm no longer anywhere close to.

The 3s + 3s makes sense because it adds a lot of presure Warden is missing while still giving you the opportunity, like Sorc, to time your burst when you're ready with the initial cast.

What I'm thinking ZOS is doing is they're copying how Sorc's use Haunting Curse in that we mostly use it over Prey for the 3.5s burst window upon casting - the second tick is an afterthought. ZOS expects you to continue using the initial hit to time you're burst with the second being an afterthought that may or may not help you, but when it does, cool.

Problem with that is they nerfed the initial tick by so much.. It should be completely switched. The first cast gives more damage, the second deals less damage but because it's a free cast, it gives you more DPS by saving you a global cooldown you could use for something else.

MashmalloMan

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

@Ratzkifal thanks, I amended that mistake. I remember reading something where someone said it was the only aoe direct dmg skill that could be roll dodged, and I just believed them.

@Lughlongarm yes, that is how the current pts patch changed DF, but a lot of us are commenting about the double nerf that was processed on warden and this particular skill. They first nerfed Advanced Species, which lowered the tooltip damage, then they dropped the damage by 8%. The current iteration of DF now does 4755 dmg at 3 seconds, then 6604 at 9 seconds.

On live, this skill hits for 5621 every 3 seconds.

So the new math is:

Live 5621 x 3 = 16,863
PTS 4755 + 6604 = 11,359

6604 is a 15% buff over live BUT at the cost of a 9 second window on a skill that misses very frequently, even by practised magdens. Missing that window is absolutely devastating and its a huge nerf to sustained pressure. This is a nerf disguised as a buff. It sounds great on paper. It's awful to use.

Feel free to check my numbers. I'd love to be proven wrong, but even then, numbers don't change how awful this new 9 second window feels. I won't do it.

@Urzigurumash read above. The 2nd hit isn't as great as you're imagining it to be. For 9 seconds of build up for a proc that you have little control over, it better hit for as much as the bb + gr combo you're talking about, but it doesn't come close. At least a magcro gets to choose "I'm going to pop this proc". A magden MUST land that hit when it goes off. God forbid you reset the timer at 8 seconds by accident. God forbid you get stunned facing the wrong direction at 8 seconds.

Hi, we need to split the discussion.

My comment is related specifically to the current functionality of DF on the PTS which many of comments missed(that the spread between the first tick and the second tick is 20% and not the actual ~38%). It is also a follow up from me asking(I think on another thread) what's the deal with the 14% to SA(the stamina morph), I'm now like 90% convinced this is a bug.

Regarding Warden overall balance, my POV is mostly related to PvP , so I don't see "Advanced Specie" nerf as a big deal, and I don't use DF on CD, only perhaps during a burst window, but usually a killing combo will involve only 1 DF+ulti+spammble+stun+setup skill like clench or something. With the new rotation, the he first tick is for pressure and the debuff the second tick is to prepare a killing setup. Now I have 6 sec and less GSD to worry about so a lot of breathing room to try and catch the target. Sure its something I will have to test more and try to get used to but no one can really comment on it ATM because there is 0 ppl on PTS to even practice on.

Regarding PVE - The numbers I see for parses are bad, I like many of ideas on forums regarding how to fix it. When it comes to Scorch specifically, I think SA supposed to be the PVE skill(If we ignore the 14% nerf which I think is a bug). Just constant damage every 3 sec.

I only PvP and magden is my main. We have the same perspective.

Advanced Species being pen is still a nerf. For it to not be a PvP nerf, the value would need to be 1,320 pen for each companion skill on the bar. Then they nerfed our primary, class defining skill...

On the worst performing PvP DD class in the game.

Knowing that the pen is even more useless in PvE means it shouldn't have been touched. Magden can already get 15k+ pen on live without really trying.

Scorch needed a buff. I'd argue the second burst in DF is much closer to where it should be now, but still falls short.

It sounds like you're fine with ZOS nerfing us 30%, but then buffing us by 25% and asking us to be thankful. I'm not.

Scorch deserves that 15% buff. No strings attached. No nerf to the initial hit, no changes to our beloved timing. 15% buff, minimum. Same set up. Same timing. 15% more damage.

We're a meme in cyro. This scorch change will only perpetuate that, not fix it.

No-one actually asked for a complete change to that passive at all. We didn't even get a developer note to tell us why they did it. It was just there.

I know why.

Frozen Armor: Increased the amount of Armor granted from this passive to 495/990 per Winter's Embrace skill slotted, up from 250/500.

They like the parity between both passives being opposites of each other. Thats basically it..

Also, why the heck do they choose numbers like 990.. is 10 more going to make or break the passive? This is an example of them choosing spreadsheets over logic. 660 is how much 1% mitigation is, so the change was made to match 1.5% mitigation and penetration, but it just looks odd if you don't understand the inner workings of the math behind the scenes.

It's lame. It's bad game design. Just as annoying as giving sets 657 crit chance and expecting the entire playerbase to understand that the crit ratio is 1% = 219. Do the calculation for us, there is no reason players ever need to see the raw data for crit chance values.

ESO_Nightingale

MashmalloMan wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

This design works for curse because Curse is a "sticky" ability and the rest of the sorc kit has great synergy with delayed burst (even if a third of it isn't used).

Whats funny is it's a bad example to model off of. Waiting for the second tick of Haunting Curse which takes 7.5s instead of this 6s is "Hauntingly" rare for very little pay off, in fact no pay off for waiting that long other than "free" damage.

It's fine in 1v1s, but in practice, a Sorc will apply Haunting Curse when they're prepared to do their burst. Waiting and timing for the second tick is usually coincidence more than anything else. Can't tell you how many times I see the 2nd burst's damage tick on an enemy I'm no longer anywhere close to.

The 3s + 3s makes sense because it adds a lot of presure Warden is missing while still giving you the opportunity, like Sorc, to time your burst when you're ready with the initial cast.

What I'm thinking ZOS is doing is they're copying how Sorc's use Haunting Curse in that we mostly use it over Prey for the 3.5s burst window upon casting - the second tick is an afterthought. ZOS expects you to continue using the initial hit to time you're burst with the second being an afterthought that may or may not help you, but when it does, cool.

Problem with that is they nerfed the initial tick by so much.. It should be completely switched. The first cast gives more damage, the second deals less damage but because it's a free cast, it gives you more DPS by saving you a global cooldown you could use for something else.

I think the 9s tick would be fine if the damage loss was reverted it'd be viable for pve. In pvp you could recast it like you used to if you really needed to because they reverted some cost.

ESO_Nightingale

MashmalloMan wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

@Ratzkifal thanks, I amended that mistake. I remember reading something where someone said it was the only aoe direct dmg skill that could be roll dodged, and I just believed them.

@Lughlongarm yes, that is how the current pts patch changed DF, but a lot of us are commenting about the double nerf that was processed on warden and this particular skill. They first nerfed Advanced Species, which lowered the tooltip damage, then they dropped the damage by 8%. The current iteration of DF now does 4755 dmg at 3 seconds, then 6604 at 9 seconds.

On live, this skill hits for 5621 every 3 seconds.

So the new math is:

Live 5621 x 3 = 16,863
PTS 4755 + 6604 = 11,359

6604 is a 15% buff over live BUT at the cost of a 9 second window on a skill that misses very frequently, even by practised magdens. Missing that window is absolutely devastating and its a huge nerf to sustained pressure. This is a nerf disguised as a buff. It sounds great on paper. It's awful to use.

Feel free to check my numbers. I'd love to be proven wrong, but even then, numbers don't change how awful this new 9 second window feels. I won't do it.

@Urzigurumash read above. The 2nd hit isn't as great as you're imagining it to be. For 9 seconds of build up for a proc that you have little control over, it better hit for as much as the bb + gr combo you're talking about, but it doesn't come close. At least a magcro gets to choose "I'm going to pop this proc". A magden MUST land that hit when it goes off. God forbid you reset the timer at 8 seconds by accident. God forbid you get stunned facing the wrong direction at 8 seconds.

Hi, we need to split the discussion.

My comment is related specifically to the current functionality of DF on the PTS which many of comments missed(that the spread between the first tick and the second tick is 20% and not the actual ~38%). It is also a follow up from me asking(I think on another thread) what's the deal with the 14% to SA(the stamina morph), I'm now like 90% convinced this is a bug.

Regarding Warden overall balance, my POV is mostly related to PvP , so I don't see "Advanced Specie" nerf as a big deal, and I don't use DF on CD, only perhaps during a burst window, but usually a killing combo will involve only 1 DF+ulti+spammble+stun+setup skill like clench or something. With the new rotation, the he first tick is for pressure and the debuff the second tick is to prepare a killing setup. Now I have 6 sec and less GSD to worry about so a lot of breathing room to try and catch the target. Sure its something I will have to test more and try to get used to but no one can really comment on it ATM because there is 0 ppl on PTS to even practice on.

Regarding PVE - The numbers I see for parses are bad, I like many of ideas on forums regarding how to fix it. When it comes to Scorch specifically, I think SA supposed to be the PVE skill(If we ignore the 14% nerf which I think is a bug). Just constant damage every 3 sec.

I only PvP and magden is my main. We have the same perspective.

Advanced Species being pen is still a nerf. For it to not be a PvP nerf, the value would need to be 1,320 pen for each companion skill on the bar. Then they nerfed our primary, class defining skill...

On the worst performing PvP DD class in the game.

Knowing that the pen is even more useless in PvE means it shouldn't have been touched. Magden can already get 15k+ pen on live without really trying.

Scorch needed a buff. I'd argue the second burst in DF is much closer to where it should be now, but still falls short.

It sounds like you're fine with ZOS nerfing us 30%, but then buffing us by 25% and asking us to be thankful. I'm not.

Scorch deserves that 15% buff. No strings attached. No nerf to the initial hit, no changes to our beloved timing. 15% buff, minimum. Same set up. Same timing. 15% more damage.

We're a meme in cyro. This scorch change will only perpetuate that, not fix it.

No-one actually asked for a complete change to that passive at all. We didn't even get a developer note to tell us why they did it. It was just there.

I know why.

Frozen Armor: Increased the amount of Armor granted from this passive to 495/990 per Winter's Embrace skill slotted, up from 250/500.

They like the parity between both passives being opposites of each other. Thats basically it..

Also, why the heck do they choose numbers like 990.. is 10 more going to make or break the passive? This is an example of them choosing spreadsheets over logic. 660 is how much 1% mitigation is, so the change was made to match 1.5% mitigation and penetration, but it just looks odd if you don't understand the inner workings of the math behind the scenes.

It's lame. It's bad game design. Just as annoying as giving sets 657 crit chance and expecting the entire playerbase to understand that the crit ratio is 1% = 219. Do the calculation for us, there is no reason players ever need to see the raw data for crit chance values.

Bruh if that's the reason, we straight up know no-one in the development team actually plays the class in pve. This isn't really even a pvp buff either. It's a straight up nerf regardless to a class they literally acknowledged this patch as lacking damage. I cannot even right now.

Caribou77

It is abundantly clear that no one at ZOS plays Magden in pvp enough to understand its challenges.

Without this, there’s really no way for the class to improve.

There’s lots of excellent advice on these forums, but without actually playing the class and developing experience, the Dev Team won’t be able to distinguish the good from the bad.

Until someone on the Dev Team understands the class, it will only get worse.

I have very little hope that it will ever improve.

Whiskey_JG

I think at some point Zos has to admit that its impossible to balance PVE and PVP with the same patch notes.

You fix one place and destroy another place.

A possible solution would be to separate the morphs to be distinctly PVE or PVP and the player would be forced to change skills upon entering cyrodil for example. I know its a crude idea but locking certain morphs for PVP zones would solve this age of problem of balancing nerfs/buffs.

It might go against their mantra of 'play how you like', but it makes skills more manageable for the combat team.

Magden is in a funny place at the moment, neither good nor bad......just not great in comparison with other classes. It's not an equal playing field in terms of class strengths. Necros and DKs outperform wardens by a mile and it leaves them in a strange spot.

ESO_Nightingale

Whiskey_JG wrote: »

I think at some point Zos has to admit that its impossible to balance PVE and PVP with the same patch notes.

You fix one place and destroy another place.

A possible solution would be to separate the morphs to be distinctly PVE or PVP and the player would be forced to change skills upon entering cyrodil for example. I know its a crude idea but locking certain morphs for PVP zones would solve this age of problem of balancing nerfs/buffs.

It might go against their mantra of 'play how you like', but it makes skills more manageable for the combat team.

Magden is in a funny place at the moment, neither good nor bad......just not great in comparison with other classes. It's not an equal playing field in terms of class strengths. Necros and DKs outperform wardens by a mile and it leaves them in a strange spot.

i think it's possible to do, but they just don't.

Azyle1

How is StamWarden looking in PVE for next patch now with these changes? Behind all the other classes? In the middle? I assume not top.

ESO_Nightingale

Azyle1 wrote: »

How is StamWarden looking in PVE for next patch now with these changes? Behind all the other classes? In the middle? I assume not top.

i'm not quite sure but i feel like the change to cutting dive is a lot better for it than it was on week 1 of pts. i don't mind that change to be honest because i think it's right up bleeden's alley and isn't convoluted.

Sluggy

Whiskey_JG wrote: »

A possible solution would be to separate the morphs to be distinctly PVE or PVP and the player would be forced to change skills upon entering cyrodil for example. I know its a crude idea but locking certain morphs for PVP zones would solve this age of problem of balancing nerfs/buffs.

One could argue that they already did this on live.

ESO_Nightingale

Sluggy wrote: »

Whiskey_JG wrote: »

A possible solution would be to separate the morphs to be distinctly PVE or PVP and the player would be forced to change skills upon entering cyrodil for example. I know its a crude idea but locking certain morphs for PVP zones would solve this age of problem of balancing nerfs/buffs.

One could argue that they already did this on live.

how so? it's a pretty jarring system idea if i'm being honest.

ESO_Nightingale

see you all next update. i'm out for this patch.