There was no plan

rageofodin

When the creative director tweeted out we need to have a little faith, I was all for it. Now it seems as there was no actual long term plan. If there was, why not just continue to test and implement those changes vs reverting them based on knee jerk feedback?

Because there was no step by step plan to fix these issues. That is why we continue to get vague notions of the why behind the what

There seems to be no plan to modify buff and debuff times to match skill time changes

There seems to be no plan on how to separate the function of sets in PvP vs PvE

There seems to be no plan to adjust the difficulty of Vet content to these changes to help new players conquer them

If I am wrong, please post the plans ZOS has laid out, I would love to know what their plan was upon launching this update, because right now it seems like the plan was just to make some broad changes and see how the community reacted to determine if was a good change or not

Needlessly to say my faith is gone

Katheriah

Have faith

spacefracking

the hardcore gamer egregore's complaints are getting so abstract it's almost like it's week 3 pts and there was a text update regarding week 4 posted on Friday.

I still think the outrage over light attacks was funny. I didn't hear anyone even bring up the thing about empower giving them a 100% LA damage boost

maybe the drama and people going out of their way to get everyone to quit eso will end now. I'm here mostly to hang out anyway

magblade is getting hugs tho, so none of the haters can keep me down >:D

ZiggyTStardust

I think they didn't realize they needed a plan, and that everything would just kinda magically work out. They certainly underestimated the consequences of nerfing everything like they did

Dawnblade

The plan...

spacefracking

if you've ever worked in a business that develops products, someone at the top needs to state an overarching goal, and then people improve the product. these two things generally don't sync up.

if they work out anyway, the plan worked, if they didn't work, it's because people didn't follow the plan. this is your position. welcome to the way the world works.

except with gamers, everyone is the bad mans

Tannus15

I disagree. There was a plan, there is a plan.

Their plan is made up of steps and I think they totally messed up how they wanted to break it up.
They thought it would be fine to nerf everything this update, then balance things next update. They didn't seem to understand that you can't make the game unplayable for 3+ months.

They didn't, and haven't, explained their vision and end goal, they have just handed us step 1 and expected us to understand the short term pain for long term gain. we don't know what the long term gain is, so we're left with short term pain which might just be long term pain. no idea.

For whatever reason the first step was reduce dps. I don't know why this is so important, but it's not just for end game trials or pvp, it's literally "the numbers need to come down across the board" and we have no idea why.

You'll note they are not backing down on nerfing everyone. In fact that are scrambling to nerf content so that the numbers can still come down without destroying the end game PvE community.

MidniteOwl1913

Tannus15 wrote: »

I disagree. There was a plan, there is a plan.

Their plan is made up of steps and I think they totally messed up how they wanted to break it up.
They thought it would be fine to nerf everything this update, then balance things next update. They didn't seem to understand that you can't make the game unplayable for 3+ months.

They didn't, and haven't, explained their vision and end goal, they have just handed us step 1 and expected us to understand the short term pain for long term gain. we don't know what the long term gain is, so we're left with short term pain which might just be long term pain. no idea.

For whatever reason the first step was reduce dps. I don't know why this is so important, but it's not just for end game trials or pvp, it's literally "the numbers need to come down across the board" and we have no idea why.

You'll note they are not backing down on nerfing everyone. In fact that are scrambling to nerf content so that the numbers can still come down without destroying the end game PvE community.

I agree. As things are they make no sense whatsoever. And saying they want to make harder content available for the mid-low tier player and then doing the opposite is really mind-boggling. It makes so little sense I can't help but feel that something else is going on.

JustAGoodPlayer

Plan: "Just do some thing":

Or more possibly :
1)Nerf DK - or take away some unique skill.
2)Nerf DPS
3)Nerf Bosses
4)Break some thing for HA to make it do not work a 1+ year
5)Break some mechanics in dunguans or trials
6)Nerf some thing
7)Break something
8)Make mistakes in patch notes
9)Do not fix some bug or not working skill for 1+ year
10)Repeat.

CleymenZero

spacefracking wrote: »

the hardcore gamer egregore's complaints are getting so abstract it's almost like it's week 3 pts and there was a text update regarding week 4 posted on Friday.

I still think the outrage over light attacks was funny. I didn't hear anyone even bring up the thing about empower giving them a 100% LA damage boost

maybe the drama and people going out of their way to get everyone to quit eso will end now. I'm here mostly to hang out anyway

magblade is getting hugs tho, so none of the haters can keep me down >:D

Light attack nerf was the least of all worries. Everything else was wrong.

auz

Tannus15 wrote: »

I disagree. There was a plan, there is a plan.

Their plan is made up of steps and I think they totally messed up how they wanted to break it up.
They thought it would be fine to nerf everything this update, then balance things next update. They didn't seem to understand that you can't make the game unplayable for 3+ months.

They didn't, and haven't, explained their vision and end goal, they have just handed us step 1 and expected us to understand the short term pain for long term gain. we don't know what the long term gain is, so we're left with short term pain which might just be long term pain. no idea.

Step 1 v35

Galarthor

LA change should have stayed. It reduces necessary calculations and is basically just a generic filler attack - so who really cares. What matters more are the actual abilities - especially class abilities as they also provide class identity.

darkstar2084

Trust the plan! The plan is there is no plan

washbern

If they decided to take away veteran mode on content in the name of accessibility, that would make more sense than what is happening now

Tannus15

Galarthor wrote: »

LA change should have stayed. It reduces necessary calculations and is basically just a generic filler attack - so who really cares. What matters more are the actual abilities - especially class abilities as they also provide class identity.

it killed heavy attack builds. that's why they are changing it.

Cyber10

rageofodin wrote: »

When the creative director tweeted out we need to have a little faith, I was all for it. Now it seems as there was no actual long term plan. If there was, why not just continue to test and implement those changes vs reverting them based on knee jerk feedback?

Because there was no step by step plan to fix these issues. That is why we continue to get vague notions of the why behind the what

There seems to be no plan to modify buff and debuff times to match skill time changes

There seems to be no plan on how to separate the function of sets in PvP vs PvE

There seems to be no plan to adjust the difficulty of Vet content to these changes to help new players conquer them

If I am wrong, please post the plans ZOS has laid out, I would love to know what their plan was upon launching this update, because right now it seems like the plan was just to make some broad changes and see how the community reacted to determine if was a good change or not

Needlessly to say my faith is gone

The entire knee-jerk tweet was arrogant and dismissive to the entire community and an apology should be issued. The community expressed valid concerns and the feedback was received like a spoiled child who was told that he cannot have a new toy. When the community issues harsh feedback its not always polite and that is not the correct way to give feedback, but when the devs become arrogant and spiteful that is an immediate admission of a lack of a plan.

I have zero faith, so hopefully they can change that.

xylena_lazarow

Cyber10 wrote: »

The entire knee-jerk tweet was arrogant and dismissive to the entire community and an apology should be issued.

Agreed, it obviously wasn't just "knee-jerking" when ZOS themselves already agreed to at least partially revert or rework several of the changes. Trust won't come back any time soon though, not when they haven't said a word about things like completely butchering Templars, dumpstering PvP damage and deleting most DoT skills from PvP, etc.

Cyber10

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Cyber10 wrote: »

The entire knee-jerk tweet was arrogant and dismissive to the entire community and an apology should be issued.

Agreed, it obviously wasn't just "knee-jerking" when ZOS themselves already agreed to at least partially revert or rework several of the changes. Trust won't come back any time soon though, not when they haven't said a word about things like completely butchering Templars, dumpstering PvP damage and deleting most DoT skills from PvP, etc.

100%.

Szende

karekiz

I can't see their "vision" for the game.

How to join?

You want to increase clear rates, but do not make a more accessible system for newer players looking to join random trials. I am sorry but surfing multiple discords to get into raids is a bad system in 2022. Just look at FF14 + WoW + GW2 with a LFG board system. Much cleaner and most importantly built into the game. Craglorn is itself one of the worst ideas of LFG that I have seen. A zone that can instance itself being the primary system for looking for raids? Really?

Progression?

Most people can't point to a clear progression system. The game is built horizontal and that probably leaves a lot of players either stuck in craglorn trial rot or not knowing where to go next.

What does ZoS consider appropriate endgame?

Is it Vet HM Progression? As that is the last thing they develop that's a unique encounter. This "endgame" will have a larger group as it is less about getting a good clear as it is getting any sort of clear.

Is it trifecta? This is mostly just achievement stuff that you do after that is mainly just fine tuning encounters you have done plenty of times before. This will always 100% be a minority. The smallest bit of players will actively go into these teams and groups.

End goal:

They need to come out and state "We want more players to participate in clearing "X" content. Currently only "X" percent actually join in this activity and to increase the player base interested in joining we have to these set of updates in mind. We have seen through data that players stop and leave the game and their feedback is currently based on this.

orgin_stadia

This was the plan: Screw eveything up so much so that they can keep on "balancing" the game every 3 months for the next 10 years.

BattleAxe

ZoS has a plan but well when you got a vocal minority yelling in there ear threatening to stop playing the game and by that effectively no longer putting money to the game. The developers hands are tied and like every other patch before the “unpopular” major changes won’t go thru while lesser noticed unfavorable changes will make it to live and creat more issues.

Effectively the player base aka us expect 4-5 weeks of testing to effectively determine if changes are good. That is barely any testing time. The best move going forward is to do pts a step ahead of updates which with the current release schedule of updates and content is planned out over the yr so perhaps The developers can start doing testing a quarter ahead of each new content release thus giving approximately 3 months to test changes.

boi_anachronism_

Thing is that the folks "complaining" actually provided data, a lot of it from the test server to the point that zos actually acknowledged that what they had done was counter to there goals. There were more people then the meta elite saying this was an issue. Check out spicy Chris on YouTube for example. Older casual player that brought up really good points about the reality of the patch as of week one. Mid level was saying the same. We can't keep pushing this idea that it was a tiny minority. It just wasn't.

xaraan

I think the plan has always been about making heavy attack builds a thing that competes with LA builds in serious content. Even if it does a little less, they want it to be close. If you look at what they tried to do two years ago with the changes, look at which streamers got sneak peaks at changes before even class reps, look at which streamers were excited for the change, then look at what they've tried to do with this patch so far. It all pretty much equals the same thing.

Sure, there are other balance changes mixed in, but I think the overall goal has been making the hold the button down to avoid as much of the dynamic combat of eso as possible a thing.

Amottica

I do not disagree about the lack of vision.

However, I don’t understand why we complain that they don’t listen and when they do we complain that they listened.

xylena_lazarow

Amottica wrote: »

However, I don’t understand why we complain that they don’t listen and when they do we complain that they listened.

Tell that to Templar players, or DoT build players, anyone trying to do damage or maintain buffs in PvP...

Wuuffyy

Amottica wrote: »

I do not disagree about the lack of vision.

However, I don’t understand why we complain that they don’t listen and when they do we complain that they listened.

A few rollbacks is not equaled to listen. In this sense, we are not referring to if it was seen or not. We are referring to if it was acted on whether by responding to the community, formally, or changed accordingly.

As always, some feedback won’t be sensible, however, in this case, a lot of feedback is (sensible). At the very least, we can receive formal responses regarding why certain items remain the same, or, even a breakdown of their vision we can follow that isn’t as vague as a Riddler puzzle.

washbern

Amottica wrote: »

I do not disagree about the lack of vision.

However, I don’t understand why we complain that they don’t listen and when they do we complain that they listened.

I think we expect the devs to listen AND to be competent enough to imenent changes in a way that doesn't break something. While the first one is only mostly true, at this point it's freaking comical to watch them grasp at straws. So far everything they tried to do this patch only brought on kore outrage. The smartest move would have been to never even introduce these changes.

Dragonlord573

I have a plan: let's all go to Tahiti!

boi_anachronism_

If they were listening they could have saved themselves a lot of this if they had pushed off 2 patches and fixed pvp. The rules in pve and pvp cannot coexist the way they are. One will always be op or being nerfed into oblivion and that's just the truth.

Amottica

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

However, I don’t understand why we complain that they don’t listen and when they do we complain that they listened.

Tell that to Templar players, or DoT build players, anyone trying to do damage or maintain buffs in PvP...

Beca

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

However, I don’t understand why we complain that they don’t listen and when they do we complain that they listened.

Tell that to Templar players, or DoT build players, anyone trying to do damage or maintain buffs in PvP...

I did with the comment you quoted.

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I do not disagree about the lack of vision.

However, I don’t understand why we complain that they don’t listen and when they do we complain that they listened.

A few rollbacks is not equaled to listen.

Since they started making changes based on our feedback it does in fact equal that they listened.

My comment was in no way suggesting I like how things will be turning out. I merely pointed out a fact that is not changed because our favorite items is not changed.