Ravenwatch PC NA solution... Midyear Mayhem...

deleted221105-001306

Hello,
The current state of Ravenwatch is riddiculous because most of the time AD has pop lock vs 1-2 bars. Do you think it is fun getting run over a truck? I don't think so. You have all those policies to save your players from frustration, shaming etc. Yet it is allowed for 1 faction to bully other 2. There is simple solution for this. Specifically for Ravenwatch do a pop lock in stages so first stage would be 0-20 players, then 20-40, then 40-60. So if 20 AD players are already inside the campaign they need to wait for 2 other factions to get 20 before they can get 40 and so on. This will provide ability for all to fight unless just getting slaughtered and leaving cyrodiil right after. New players say on zone multiple times this is first and last time im here. Thanks to this solution we can have fights on the map and equal chance for keeps rather than full mass against 20 ep and 10 DC.
The system should also prioritize top 40 players of the scoreboard to join first because they fight month after month for this campaign (at least some of them)
Other people can just join those 7 days event ampaigns and fill them up.
This way maybe at least some of the players would consider playeing other faction at least just for event time.
P.S. AD takes 20-30 people to capture a resource in prime time.... This is riddiculous.
https://im.ge/i/F6fUTa
https://im.ge/i/F6fi3y
https://im.ge/i/F6fhLJ

Qrähe

Let me understamd this, during an event about PvP you want to restrict the number of people in PvP?

Yaaa..... No. When DC and EP are pop locked I'm seeing established PvP groups not doing anything to encourage all the new people, run off on in their same groups and wonder why they feel swamred by locusts.

Pick up your pugs and utilize them. Funny thing about them is they can be overwhelming.

woosinator2008

There were plenty of times when AD EP and DC were pop locked. EP and DC decided to what? Do quests or something? Don’t blame AD for the players in the other factions just wanting to pve

deleted221105-001306

For last 2 months I havent seen EP and DC pop locked on Ravenwatch.
And the current pop lock are just questers.
You guys are certainly from AD.

deleted221105-001306

I know it is fun for you to run in 40 people zerg and hit people from behind and bully the questers, [snip] Always the same first reaction -run back or look behind if the zerg is there at 90% fights.

[Edited for Baiting]

deleted221105-001306

Although keep in mind new players that come here to play give up after 10-20 minutes and soon you will pvp with yourself there. To be honest I'm not suprised they are quitting.
Im doing groups for new players every day so they could utilize the event although there is no doubt it is not fun for them to get overrun at every single resource, outpost. not even going to mention siege attacks where they have 0 chance. they dont even know what they should do for an event ticket.

deleted221105-001306

Qrähe wrote: »

Let me understamd this, during an event about PvP you want to restrict the number of people in PvP?

Yaaa..... No. When DC and EP are pop locked I'm seeing established PvP groups not doing anything to encourage all the new people, run off on in their same groups and wonder why they feel swamred by locusts.

Pick up your pugs and utilize them. Funny thing about them is they can be overwhelming.

There are no established EP groups in Ravenwatch. Only few stable players. as for groups max is 12 people so I can take 11 and if they only spam LFG instead of make 2nd group there is nothing that can be done. Its those people fault they are lazy.

deleted221105-001306

also based on last few days it is not very fun to be leader of such groups because they die just by enemies that look at them, they complain a lot about the map colour or the group(but wont take any action in the same time) so I also understand why people just don't want to bother with making a group. I believe that most of people want to stress out in ESO after work etc. but those groups are stressfull.

ArdenLightBringer

I am a little confused as to how those proposed changes with fix the problems that have been spoken about, in my view all that would do is decrease the overall population significantly.

Mega_Nova

Yeah idk. I feel when im on its easy mode against AD when EP has numbers. However I only play around prime time so idk how the rest of the day goes. 12v12 its a locked win for us 10/10 times. Rallying pugs tonight we were able to push the map and do some great work. I think all 3 factions had fun today.

gariondavey

The solution to population imbalance has always been for zos to rework the scoring system. Having points available to be earned connected to enemy faction amounts.

Ex. 3 bars of one faction hold the whole map but there are only 1 bar of the other 2 factions, so a penalizing multiplier is applied to the score for the 3 bar faction. This will prevent them from getting big score increases each score update unless there are comparable numbers on other factions online. This will stop enabling factions from winning campaigns by avoiding conflict. If you want to win you should have to fight other players.

deleted221105-001306

gariondavey wrote: »

The solution to population imbalance has always been for zos to rework the scoring system. Having points available to be earned connected to enemy faction amounts.

Ex. 3 bars of one faction hold the whole map but there are only 1 bar of the other 2 factions, so a penalizing multiplier is applied to the score for the 3 bar faction. This will prevent them from getting big score increases each score update unless there are comparable numbers on other factions online. This will stop enabling factions from winning campaigns by avoiding conflict. If you want to win you should have to fight other players.

that is a very good idea

gameswithaspoon

A not too small part of your current problem is that some "sunshine patriots" on EP are logging onto AD toons, rounding up pugs, and gating EP. And EP lacks the faction leadership to deal with the issue.

Your frustration is understandable. EP was the dominant faction for 2019 and 2020 in Ravenwatch until they embraced an anti-pug policy and have never recovered.

And current EP leadership spends more time on the forums and Youtube than in faction building, and well... that leads to the Friday night before Mayhem, when at 8 PM EP had an EMP, the whole emp ring, and all 6 scrolls, and could mount no measurable defense at all.

Anyway, Spoon needs a cup of coffee.

Have courage and be kind.

Mega_Nova

gameswithaspoon wrote: »

A not too small part of your current problem is that some "sunshine patriots" on EP are logging onto AD toons, rounding up pugs, and gating EP. And EP lacks the faction leadership to deal with the issue.

Your frustration is understandable. EP was the dominant faction for 2019 and 2020 in Ravenwatch until they embraced an anti-pug policy and have never recovered.

And current EP leadership spends more time on the forums and Youtube than in faction building, and well... that leads to the Friday night before Mayhem, when at 8 PM EP had an EMP, the whole emp ring, and all 6 scrolls, and could mount no measurable defense at all.

Anyway, Spoon needs a cup of coffee.

Have courage and be kind.

Spoons is being super nice... Ill rewrite it...

Basically what shes saying is.... STOP MAKING ENEMIES AND BEING TOXIC TO YOUR OWN FACTION. Carry on. Lol.

Not to mention a bunch of us are just trying to play the dang game, not get brought into a drama fest between people who have the liberty to play all dang day.

A few months will move on and things change. Nature of the campaign.

deleted221105-001306

gariondavey wrote: »

The solution to population imbalance has always been for zos to rework the scoring system. Having points available to be earned connected to enemy faction amounts.

Ex. 3 bars of one faction hold the whole map but there are only 1 bar of the other 2 factions, so a penalizing multiplier is applied to the score for the 3 bar faction. This will prevent them from getting big score increases each score update unless there are comparable numbers on other factions online. This will stop enabling factions from winning campaigns by avoiding conflict. If you want to win you should have to fight other players.

that is a very good idea

gameswithaspoon wrote: »

A not too small part of your current problem is that some "sunshine patriots" on EP are logging onto AD toons, rounding up pugs, and gating EP. And EP lacks the faction leadership to deal with the issue.

Your frustration is understandable. EP was the dominant faction for 2019 and 2020 in Ravenwatch until they embraced an anti-pug policy and have never recovered.

And current EP leadership spends more time on the forums and Youtube than in faction building, and well... that leads to the Friday night before Mayhem, when at 8 PM EP had an EMP, the whole emp ring, and all 6 scrolls, and could mount no measurable defense at all.

Anyway, Spoon needs a cup of coffee.

Have courage and be kind.

[snip] My idea is good and also make Ravenwatch alliance lock (or create second no cp with alliance lock). When ep starts winning suddenly DC has again 1 bar and AD 3 bars. as per screenshot......
https://im.ge/i/FPShQ9
https://im.ge/i/FPSL8K

[edited for baiting]

deleted221105-001306

ArdenLightBringer wrote: »

I am a little confused as to how those proposed changes with fix the problems that have been spoken about, in my view all that would do is decrease the overall population significantly.

Of course it will help for the fair game. it will be 20 vs 20 vs 20 not 100 vs 20 vs 20

deleted221105-001306

I think you can just bring proc sets back and then few players can deal with zerg. The hammer can also b there (just make it weaker than in cp). Because most players are probably bored without those options.

M0R_Gaming

Nordslord wrote: »

ArdenLightBringer wrote: »

I am a little confused as to how those proposed changes with fix the problems that have been spoken about, in my view all that would do is decrease the overall population significantly.

Of course it will help for the fair game. it will be 20 vs 20 vs 20 not 100 vs 20 vs 20

Would this really change anything though? During prime time, EP and DC are also pop locked just like AD, and in the screenshots you sent above where AD had low pop, that would mean that everyone's population is brought down to DC's 1 bar of population, killing pvp entirely since there would be like 10 people who could log in.

deleted221105-001306

M0R_Gaming wrote: »

Nordslord wrote: »

ArdenLightBringer wrote: »

I am a little confused as to how those proposed changes with fix the problems that have been spoken about, in my view all that would do is decrease the overall population significantly.

Of course it will help for the fair game. it will be 20 vs 20 vs 20 not 100 vs 20 vs 20

Would this really change anything though? During prime time, EP and DC are also pop locked just like AD, and in the screenshots you sent above where AD had low pop, that would mean that everyone's population is brought down to DC's 1 bar of population, killing pvp entirely since there would be like 10 people who could log in.

read my pot again. pop would just come in parts so max per stage can be 20 so first it would be 20 then 20-40 then 40-60 and not like 20 vs 60 right away. On prime time the pop lock would happen anyway because all factions would have max players. Just a the time when ep and dc would have 20 players AD would also have 20 layers and not 60-100

gameswithaspoon

The problem with scores in nonCP began with the release of Vardenfell and the start of Sotha Sil's campaign.

When scrolls are worth 20 and 10 points per evaluation, scores exponentially slip in one direction or another.

Also.

So, this morning circa 10 AM EST, the EP pug group was outside Allessia with 19 random EP players. There were 6 AD defenders. Between the attackers they had 2 regular ballistae, one fire ballistae, one ram that burned out in defensive oil, and one fire pot treb being shot on lumber side wall. In 7 minutes before the AD pug group arrived, they failed to flag the door.

Successes lead to successes and failures to failures.

ArdenLightBringer

When it comes down to it a well coordinated group will always be able to run over midyear pug groups without issue, even if the pug group is much larger(for the most part). I ran a pug group yesterday for about 4 hours and helped a lot of people with set recommendations and basic tips so they could stop getting farmed.
In that time a friend also came on and did the same, eventually the few of us had 3 groups we were leading and pushing the map. With simple instructions and tips within a few hours they went from floor matts to being able to hold their own for a respectable amount of time.
If anyone is unhappy about the map id recommend trying something similar, of course during peak hour you will prob still get ran over but getting small wins gives groups like that confidence and the desire to come back.

Hopefully this can be helpful in some way to everyone, happy hunting.

deleted221105-001306

gameswithaspoon wrote: »

The problem with scores in nonCP began with the release of Vardenfell and the start of Sotha Sil's campaign.

When scrolls are worth 20 and 10 points per evaluation, scores exponentially slip in one direction or another.

Also.

So, this morning circa 10 AM EST, the EP pug group was outside Allessia with 19 random EP players. There were 6 AD defenders. Between the attackers they had 2 regular ballistae, one fire ballistae, one ram that burned out in defensive oil, and one fire pot treb being shot on lumber side wall. In 7 minutes before the AD pug group arrived, they failed to flag the door.

Successes lead to successes and failures to failures.

Yea thats why I mentione like 40 or so players from top scoreboard should be priority in the queue for campaign rather than pugs. Well I am not going to argue with you guys because your point is valid tho in general apart from midyear every night at certain hour AD become a hive and other 2 factions can just leave the campaign because it wont change much.

deleted221105-001306

Mega_Nova wrote: »

Yeah idk. I feel when im on its easy mode against AD when EP has numbers. However I only play around prime time so idk how the rest of the day goes. 12v12 its a locked win for us 10/10 times. Rallying pugs tonight we were able to push the map and do some great work. I think all 3 factions had fun today.

yes it was totally fun

Azrael001

Nordslord wrote: »

Yea thats why I mentione like 40 or so players from top scoreboard should be priority in the queue for campaign rather than pugs. Well I am not going to argue with you guys because your point is valid tho in general apart from midyear every night at certain hour AD become a hive and other 2 factions can just leave the campaign because it wont change much.

I'll fully agree that Raven should be faction locked, as there is far too much faction flipping currently, which just makes the winning side stronger every time. However, with your proposed solution of 20v40, 40v60, etc., why would you stay logged in once you hold the map? If you can get the enemy pop lock to be 20, it'll take them far longer to take the map than if you stay logged in at 40v60. And why would you ever try and train new members or help pugs? You would only need 20 or so good players in total for the whole faction. Your proposed solution would actively encourage logging out to win a campaign, instead of playing. Far more so than low pop currently does.

Also, if one faction has only 10 people willing to login, what do the other two factions do? Just don't play a game they have an active subscription to? Sit around waiting for the pop cap to increase, doing nothing?

Your proposal would also enable sabotage to a much greater extent than plaguebreak. Just having a few people in your guild on another account login to the enemy faction, and you'd suddenly be 40v10 b/c 50 of the "enemies" wouldn't be actually playing, just sitting at the gate while those who worked hard to get their faction to where they are just have to sit outside Cyrodiil and watch as you take the whole map with no resistance and keep it that way.

Also, with pop caps as small as 20, there would be absolutely no way to stop people from hitting back lines and PvDooring the entire map, as 20 people would be unable to spread out to hold anything unless they were pushed all the way back to their trikeeps.

I'm sure there are many other issues with your proposal, but that's just the most obvious to me as to why it shouldn't be implemented. Perhaps to boost population, ZOS should add more score incentive to actually PvPing, as the big issue I've seen EP/DC have in Raven in the past few days of Mayhem has been that they have so many people either breaking away to go PvDoor something, or just going to PvE, which allows AD to hold the entire map when it is poplocked 3-ways (as seen Thursday and Friday night). Campaign score should not be decided on undefended objectives, as it currently is, as that encourages people to not join the groups actually trying to fight and instead go PvDoor the backlines, leading to those who do fight losing and eventually quitting. AP generation should also be significantly higher for fighting than not, even if you lose. Especially since losing has almost no AP gain currently, which further incentivizes PvDooring empty keeps in a vicious cycle.

deleted221105-001306

"Your proposal would also enable sabotage to a much greater extent than plaguebreak. Just having a few people in your guild on another account login to the enemy faction, and you'd suddenly be 40v10 b/c 50 of the "enemies" wouldn't be actually playing, just sitting at the gate while those who worked hard to get their faction to where they are just have to sit outside Cyrodiil and watch as you take the whole map with no resistance and keep it that way."

Yea you are right. AD has numbers to do that. But if you implement the top 100 scoreboard priority and alliance lock (pugs get kicked when top 100 player queues) that would not allow such behaviour and each faction would have their top players online.

Azrael001

Nordslord wrote: »

Yea you are right. AD has numbers to do that. But if you implement the top 100 scoreboard priority and alliance lock (pugs get kicked when top 100 player queues) that would not allow such behaviour and each faction would have their top players online.

With how the score currently works, this would not be the result however. The best players are not necessarily, and even very rarely at the top of the scoreboard. Those at the top of the scoreboard are either those who are able to play all day every day, or those who have friends on other factions to boost them.

Also, not allowing people to play a game they paid for just because they're not the best (if scores were fixed) or don't have the most time (with current scoring methods) isn't a good solution. It would just be a crutch for those who dont want to help train new players, which would effectively kill PvP populations across the board as people would find something else to play instead of waiting for more people of another faction to login.

You also have not refuted the point that this solution would disincentivize playing, or training new players to help increase the player base. Or that defending a whole map 20v20 would be nearly impossible for players of equal skill, which would further incentivize PvDooring over actual PvP.

No one should be focusing on decreasing the PvP populations, as this solution will inevitably do. The solution to the current issue is for EP and DC in RW to recruit and train more people, not to tell AD players that they shouldn't be able to play, or to bring RNG into the mix with procs to subvert skill.

gariondavey

Sorry @Nordslord but only the faction lock is a decent idea. The reducing players in stages is not a good idea.
Scoreboard multipliers is 100 percent the way to deal with this. I am not the first to suggest this. I've seen @Qrähe say very similar things over the years, among others.
The reality is this would be really easy fix for zos. Why it hasn't been done already - I have no idea.

Kartalin

My only complaint is the non-prime time NA zerging by OPs group prevented NA prime time EP from getting low pop bonus because EP was still in first place.

Perhaps a more liberal application of low pop (affecting just AP gain and less about score) plus the aforementioned scoring changes based on population would be the way to go.
.

deleted221105-001306

ArdenLightBringer wrote: »

When it comes down to it a well coordinated group will always be able to run over midyear pug groups without issue, even if the pug group is much larger(for the most part). I ran a pug group yesterday for about 4 hours and helped a lot of people with set recommendations and basic tips so they could stop getting farmed.
In that time a friend also came on and did the same, eventually the few of us had 3 groups we were leading and pushing the map. With simple instructions and tips within a few hours they went from floor matts to being able to hold their own for a respectable amount of time.
If anyone is unhappy about the map id recommend trying something similar, of course during peak hour you will prob still get ran over but getting small wins gives groups like that confidence and the desire to come back.

Hopefully this can be helpful in some way to everyone, happy hunting.

yea I totally agree with your point. The big problem I mentioned also tho is the zerg mentality. Some of the players on AD thruly believe they are so strong as one as if they hit someone 3v1 or more. When they fight u alone and they wake up from the delusion they send hatefull pms. I really don The zergs just shouldnt be allowed

Azrael001 wrote: »

Nordslord wrote: »

Yea you are right. AD has numbers to do that. But if you implement the top 100 scoreboard priority and alliance lock (pugs get kicked when top 100 player queues) that would not allow such behaviour and each faction would have their top players online.

With how the score currently works, this would not be the result however. The best players are not necessarily, and even very rarely at the top of the scoreboard. Those at the top of the scoreboard are either those who are able to play all day every day, or those who have friends on other factions to boost them.

Also, not allowing people to play a game they paid for just because they're not the best (if scores were fixed) or don't have the most time (with current scoring methods) isn't a good solution. It would just be a crutch for those who dont want to help train new players, which would effectively kill PvP populations across the board as people would find something else to play instead of waiting for more people of another faction to login.

You also have not refuted the point that this solution would disincentivize playing, or training new players to help increase the player base. Or that defending a whole map 20v20 would be nearly impossible for players of equal skill, which would further incentivize PvDooring over actual PvP.

No one should be focusing on decreasing the PvP populations, as this solution will inevitably do. The solution to the current issue is for EP and DC in RW to recruit and train more people, not to tell AD players that they shouldn't be able to play, or to bring RNG into the mix with procs to subvert skill.

you focus so much on no one wants to trian new players. I want to teach them and train them but they give up easily. I ask some people to change builds (gave them sets) it took them 3 months to change them. you cant make gold out of stone. if u get people that want to learn they will. if u get people that just type LFG and if they dont get it fast or die 2 times they leave = wont make warriors out of them.

Didgerion

I have a better idea. If it is not your home campaign let the game randomly put you in another alliance that needs players.

deleted221105-001306

Kartalin wrote: »

My only complaint is the non-prime time NA zerging by OPs group prevented NA prime time EP from getting low pop bonus because EP was still in first place.

Perhaps a more liberal application of low pop (affecting just AP gain and less about score) plus the aforementioned scoring changes based on population would be the way to go.
.

randoms join to where map is coloured. they dont care which faction is it so they zerged everyday. in this case stages by 20 and top score board priorioty would resolve the pug map zerg issue