The real problem with LA

Everaen · July 2022

It's free. There is no tradeoff.

For players skilled enough to use it every GCD, it's free damage, free Ultimate regen, free casts to bolster effects in item sets, etc. Players not skilled enough or capable enough (or those that simply don't care) don't have this glorious free thing ticking for them every GCD.

There isn't a good reason NOT to press it or create a macro that just ticks LA endlessly or some of the other things I've heard of people doing just to make sure it's getting spammed as often as possible.

I'm guessing this next will be controversial (and probably argued endlessly well before I found the forums) ...

But I feel like the only way LA can remain a meaningful button press while also not becoming a significant factor in how the game is balanced, is by giving that ability a tradeoff. The only tradeoff that makes sense to me, is time.

Make it so it can't be animation canceled. For the duration of that animation, a player can't cast something else.

Then if someone wanted to press the LA button, it's going to cost them a very brief window of time. It would have to be a conscious decision, not a muscle memory mindlessly firing every GCD. And now you can actually treat LA like a mini-ability all its own that scales and factors into rotations (or not). Players could then really invest in LA builds, or they could shirk LA's altogether and only press it when there weren't more interesting abilities to press.

Caveat to this proposed change: More damage would have to go into abilities, and LA would need to be more meaningful as a button-press than it is currently.

The more I've seen/read about LA weaving, the more I'm convinced ZoS never envisioned players would use it this way. And now they're straddling this fence, trying to keep weavers happy while also trying to balance a game that was never meant to be balanced for a free ability that is wholly skill dependent on the player. IMO, they just need to rip the bandaid off and pick a lane on LA interactions.

LeonAkando · July 2022

Your idea is not new, it's basically just "fix the bug that defines the game".
I agree with you though, LA is effectively free damage with no trade-off.

Here's an idea I thought of a while back, and I can get crucified for it.

Heavy Attacks generate resources right, so how about light attacks.. spend resources.
You would gain a 13th and 14th skill slot, and you would put your spammable as a replacement for a basic light attack. The slot would only accept spammable abilities and it would only replace the basic light attack.

Thus spammables such as Whip, Jabs, Crystal Weapon, Veiled Strike, Flurry, Force Pulse, Heroic Strike, etc would instead be alternatives for light attacks.
Now this would require some work arounds and shifting to make it work, but it would make for an interesting change and solve the LA issue.

BronzeCaiman · July 2022

I agree with you there, LA weave has always been a clunky, ugly looking thing. I remember during the first year nightblades had a haste skill for 30% attack speed, and we also had the weighted trait for LA speed. It was amazing seeing your characters arms teleporting from beginning to end of LA, while you use two fingers to smash your left click as fast as possible.

This game has the most floaty feeling basic attack of any elder scrolls game. Its like popping popcorn.

Aelorien · July 2022

I agreed with Everaen. Light attacks as a free damage source outside the global cooldown were never a good idea. That really should be fixed, either by giving them a cast time that can't be cancelled or simply by putting them back on the GCD like other "instant" abilities.

And I really like LeonAkando's suggestion that light attacks receiving a skill slot and be upgraded to a class skill or more potent weapon skill as part of character progression. That would feel like meaningful character growth or a build choice rather than some lame and clunky attack that everyone just has to use for their entire career in ESO. I think this is one of the best ideas I've seen regarding light attacks.

A far less cool but (possibly) easier to implement option might be to merge light and heavy attacks into one variable-length charged attack skill. It would scale its effects based on how long you charged it. If you immediately released or animation canceled, your little zap wouldn't accomplish much of anything. It would gain damage and additional effects as it scaled up to what we now have as a full heavy attack. Proc triggering could happen at around a half charge, and maybe even count twice for a full charge.

Eiregirl · July 2022

I think a better way to offset what light attacks can do to a player's DPS would be to provide other ways to attain comparable damage output without using any light attacks.

An example would be using heavy attack weaves with no light attacks. The damage output would not have to be as high as a skilled light attack weaver but at least on the same playing field. For example, a passive ability that increases the damage of your next X class abilities used after a heavy attack is increased by X amount or X percentage while using no light attacks. But there are many ways to bring good players who cannot or do not want to light attack weave into the same room as skilled light attack weavers.

Another example would be a player who wants to use only class abilities. Class identity is something that is deteriorating more and more and this would be a good way to bring some of that back.

Zos constantly talks about raising the floor and lowering the ceiling and they talk about making content more assessable to all players. The content is assessable but raising the floor and lowering the ceiling is not going to teach anyone the mechanics of the game and it is not going to teach anyone how to light attack weave.

Instead of penalizing skilled players who can light attack weave why not provide other ways of attaining meaningful DPS? It would not have to be on par with a skilled light attack weavers DPS but at least in the same room.

Perhaps a mythic item or a new gear set that provides buffs like oakensoul as long as you do not use a light attack or one that has your class abilities doing extra damage as long as you do not perform light attacks.

There are plenty of players who are skilled at the game and know the mechanics of dungeons and trials that prefer not to light attack weave or just are not coordinated enough to pull it off well enough to be effective.

One of the main slogans used to advertise ESO is...play the way you like. Forcing people to play a certain way does not match up with that slogan at all.

Tannus15 · July 2022

It's been this way for 8 years now.

There are many key skills and sets based around how light attacks are on their own GCD separate from the skill GCD.
This has been fundamental for how ESO combat works since the beginning and has only been embraced by the game design ever since.

It's not a bug, it's a feature.

I absolutely agree that other rotations and play styles should be embraced, such as heavy attack builds, which have also been encouraged and embraced right up until this update where for some reason they have decided to nerf them into oblivion.

Quick side note, tying heavy attack damage to a ratio of light attack damage is stupid because the cost of a heavy attack is a light attack and a skill. I mean, that's just logic. A heavy attack should do 1 light attack + 1 spammable worth of damage. minimum.

Stop attacking light attack weaving as a concept. It's not going away, it's not a bug. it's not an exploit. It's literally the combat system working as intended.

BretonMage · July 2022

BlackArgonian wrote: »

I agree with you there, LA weave has always been a clunky, ugly looking thing. I remember during the first year nightblades had a haste skill for 30% attack speed, and we also had the weighted trait for LA speed. It was amazing seeing your characters arms teleporting from beginning to end of LA, while you use two fingers to smash your left click as fast as possible.

This game has the most floaty feeling basic attack of any elder scrolls game. Its like popping popcorn.

That sounds... good? I'm not sure what your objection is tbh, TES games have always been notorious for clunky combat animations, and ESO distinguishes itself by being mostly well done.

LA weaving can look and feel elegant with the right skill. I love it with Crystal Frags because when it's done right it looks great. I think the weak point here is the various clunky skill animations. For example, I don't use Force Pulse because I really detest the animation for it.

Amottica · July 2022

The cost is not the real issue with LAs. All basic attacks are essentially free and are not the problem. Further, making it so it cannot be animation canceled means it would become virtually useless, and our combat would become like WoW and FF14, where we wait until we can use the next skill. That would be extremely boring and go against the feedback from the off-cycle PTS Zenimax did a couple of years ago.

The main issue with LA is Zenimax chose specifically to emphasize LAs over MA-HA weaving in the Morrowind update (IIRC), which was an update Zenimax made a few changes with the goal of lowering the ceiling and raising the floor of DPS (sound familiar). In doing so, they increased the difficulty of weaving for maximum effect since a LA has a very narrow margin of success.

So we are where Zenimax is trying to undo what they did a few years ago without reverting to a system that worked just fine and was much more player friendly for new and lesser experienced players.

Also, if Zenimax were only changing the basic attacks in this update, we would probably see a lot fewer complaints outside of those who specialize in HA builds or LA spamming.

chessalavakia_ESO · July 2022

I'd argue the update is picking a lane.

They've altered one of the most popular skills in the game so that it works better with weaving.

They've redone one of the buffs for light attacks so it's easier to obtain, easier to keep up for longer, and so that it is more impactful with the exception of players already doing lots of damage on light attacks.

They've removed light attack damage scaling which does put a damper on the amount it does at the top but, it increases the amount that weaving will do at lower damage levels.

The update has also gutted heavy attack builds.

To me, it seems pretty clear they want players to be light attack weaving with abilities rather than anything else.

Zederok · July 2022

LeonAkando wrote: »

Your idea is not new, it's basically just "fix the bug that defines the game".
I agree with you though, LA is effectively free damage with no trade-off.

Here's an idea I thought of a while back, and I can get crucified for it.

Heavy Attacks generate resources right, so how about light attacks.. spend resources.
You would gain a 13th and 14th skill slot, and you would put your spammable as a replacement for a basic light attack. The slot would only accept spammable abilities and it would only replace the basic light attack.

Thus spammables such as Whip, Jabs, Crystal Weapon, Veiled Strike, Flurry, Force Pulse, Heroic Strike, etc would instead be alternatives for light attacks.
Now this would require some work arounds and shifting to make it work, but it would make for an interesting change and solve the LA issue.

I proposed this a while back, basically replace your light attack with a 6th skill slot that acts as a spammable.

WrathOfInnos · July 2022

Zederok wrote: »

show previous quotes

LeonAkando wrote: »

Your idea is not new, it's basically just "fix the bug that defines the game".
I agree with you though, LA is effectively free damage with no trade-off.

Here's an idea I thought of a while back, and I can get crucified for it.

Heavy Attacks generate resources right, so how about light attacks.. spend resources.
You would gain a 13th and 14th skill slot, and you would put your spammable as a replacement for a basic light attack. The slot would only accept spammable abilities and it would only replace the basic light attack.

Thus spammables such as Whip, Jabs, Crystal Weapon, Veiled Strike, Flurry, Force Pulse, Heroic Strike, etc would instead be alternatives for light attacks.
Now this would require some work arounds and shifting to make it work, but it would make for an interesting change and solve the LA issue.

I proposed this a while back, basically replace your light attack with a 6th skill slot that acts as a spammable.

I'd be ok with that only if the GCD was cut in half to 0.5s. That would actually make combat much more interesting, choosing skills or light attacks at a fast pace, and not simply alternating.

remosito · July 2022

make it do dmg at end of animation. time cost as an alternative to costing resources..

will keep animation canceling alive and combat feel reactive. and should allow LA to be buffed and thus raise the true dps floor: LA spammers...

merpins · July 2022

The problem with LA is it's too expensive to live there and big cities aren't a great place to raise a family.

There is no real problem with light attacks or light attack weaving, the problem is the fact that there is no tutorial in-game that teaches newer players how to weave effectively and why doing so is important for your gameplay. It was a bug in the beta, but the playerbase loved how dynamic it made combat feel. Without it, combat will feel 50% less dynamic over 20% of your damage. Sure, some players don't like it, but it's an important part of the game that the majority of the playerbase loves.

I don't think it needs a nerf or a change, in fact the current change just results in 1. going back to the old system from a few years ago that ZoS changed to go in a new direction, since it used to have a flat value of damage but they made it scale to try and raise the floor of the game... Huh, weird that they're changing it back now huh? And 2. it just makes the power gap bigger because now, in order to do good damage you not only need to LA weave, but you also need a maelstrom staff and you need to keep up wall of elements to deal good LA damage.

colossalvoids · July 2022

What could go wrong rewriting whole game because... Reasons.

remosito · July 2022

colossalvoids wrote: »

What could go wrong rewriting whole game because... Reasons.

hyperbole much?

making LA cost resouces, or do dmg at end of animation isnt gonna require touching and risk breaking zones, quests, encounters, abd 99.9% of other things this game consists of..

Amottica · July 2022

remosito wrote: »

show previous quotes

colossalvoids wrote: »

What could go wrong rewriting whole game because... Reasons.

hyperbole much?

making LA cost resouces, or do dmg at end of animation isnt gonna require touching and risk breaking zones, quests, encounters, abd 99.9% of other things this game consists of..

Their comment was clearly addressing changes to the basic attack tying it to a GCD. That is a significant change to combat in the game. Yes, it would be a significant rewrite to it.

Further, Zenimax heeded our feedback during an off-cycle PTS a couple of years ago and realized the fast action-based combat of ESO is a big reason why we play this game vs FF14 and similar games that have a slower pace where we have to wait before executing the next skill.

Now, WrathofInos has posted an interesting thought in this thread. His comment is linked below. That is reducing the GCD to .5 seconds and making it a choice between doing a basic attack or using a skill. It would keep the fast pace of combat. However, those who are truly challenged with weaving basic attacks would likely still fall behind on the APM.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7673877/#Comment_7673877

remosito · July 2022

Amottica wrote: »

show previous quotes

remosito wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

What could go wrong rewriting whole game because... Reasons.

hyperbole much?

making LA cost resouces, or do dmg at end of animation isnt gonna require touching and risk breaking zones, quests, encounters, abd 99.9% of other things this game consists of..

Their comment was clearly addressing changes to the basic attack tying it to a GCD. That is a significant change to combat in the game. Yes, it would be a significant rewrite to it.

You don't code, do you?

even tying it to a gcd isn't gonna touch or break 99.99% of the game...

Brrrofski · July 2022

Thing is, the difference between 100k DPS and 20k DPS isn't light attacks.

There are other factors at play. So less experienced or able players will always be behind.

And you only need to be able to weave light attacks fairly decent to do like 5% of the game. The very top stuff. You can do majority of the game with a bad rotation, or not the best gear setup.

I want people to experience and enjoy as much of the game as they can. I really do. But some content just might not be for every player.

Why is there a need to make massive changes to light attacks? What is the real goal? The content isn't easier, so those struggling to do content will still struggle.

Do people think these"toxic" (not my opinion) trial groups will start lettin anyone in to do score runs on the hardest content? No, they'll still want the best players. Yeh, the DPS number they ask for might reduce, but DPS across the board has gone down. So people who couldn't hit the requirements now STILL won't hit it.

And what about new players?

I do vet pledges often, and there is always 1 person in every dungeon that doesn't know what they're doing. So it's usually spam a skill twice, light attack 10 times, spam skill twice, light attack 10 times and repeat. The current changes hurt them a lot. The proposals in this thread stop them playing entirely.

And making it it's own GCD would drive a lot of players away. I play this game FOR the combat.

Amottica · July 2022

remosito wrote: »

show previous quotes

Amottica wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

What could go wrong rewriting whole game because... Reasons.

hyperbole much?

making LA cost resouces, or do dmg at end of animation isnt gonna require touching and risk breaking zones, quests, encounters, abd 99.9% of other things this game consists of..

Their comment was clearly addressing changes to the basic attack tying it to a GCD. That is a significant change to combat in the game. Yes, it would be a significant rewrite to it.

You don't code, do you?

even tying it to a gcd isn't gonna touch or break 99.99% of the game...

First, weaving LAs is part of what is called animation canceling or AC. In keeping things simple, there is hierarchy of actions we have in ESO with basic attacks being at the bottom, skills are next, and blocking has the highest priority. This is the design Zenimax created from the start to deal with our need to quickly react to incoming damage, which is more of a necessity than slower-placed games such as FF14.

As such the coding is not that simple and we know this for a fact because Zenimax has looked into this shortly after the game launched as AC was not an intended part of the design. In the end, they chose to keep it and make it officially a legitimate part of the game. This is something that is brought up in many threads concerning AC.

In other words, if it was as simple as you suggest and not create a lot of work it would have been eliminated long ago.

BTW, that information about AC and Zenimax's comments is brought up by many players in thread discussion animation canceling. It is widely known and goes beyond comments that I want this or I do not like that.

Hope this helps.

remosito · July 2022

before you said it was about gcd... now it is about animation canceling?

make up your mind..

fixing animation canceling bug would be more involved indeed. still wouldnt touch 99.9% of the code the game consists of.

so the "rewriting whole game" comment I replied to is still hyperbole...

adding a gcd where skills simply wont fire for x ms after an LA on the other hand. much simpler..

as are the propsals from this thread..

Amottica wrote: »

show previous quotes

remosito wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

What could go wrong rewriting whole game because... Reasons.

hyperbole much?

making LA cost resouces, or do dmg at end of animation isnt gonna require touching and risk breaking zones, quests, encounters, abd 99.9% of other things this game consists of..

Their comment was clearly addressing changes to the basic attack tying it to a GCD. That is a significant change to combat in the game. Yes, it would be a significant rewrite to it.

You don't code, do you?

even tying it to a gcd isn't gonna touch or break 99.99% of the game...

First, weaving LAs is part of what is called animation canceling or AC. In keeping things simple, there is hierarchy of actions we have in ESO with basic attacks being at the bottom, skills are next, and blocking has the highest priority. This is the design Zenimax created from the start to deal with our need to quickly react to incoming damage, which is more of a necessity than slower-placed games such as FF14.

As such the coding is not that simple and we know this for a fact because Zenimax has looked into this shortly after the game launched as AC was not an intended part of the design. In the end, they chose to keep it and make it officially a legitimate part of the game. This is something that is brought up in many threads concerning AC.

In other words, if it was as simple as you suggest and not create a lot of work it would have been eliminated long ago.

BTW, that information about AC and Zenimax's comments is brought up by many players in thread discussion animation canceling. It is widely known and goes beyond comments that I want this or I do not like that.

Hope this helps.

Amottica · July 2022

remosito wrote: »

before you said it was about gcd... now it is about animation canceling?

make up your mind..

fixing animation canceling bug would be more involved indeed. still wouldnt touch 99.9% of the code the game consists of.

so the "rewriting whole game" comment I replied to is still hyperbole...

adding a gcd where skills simply wont fire for x ms after an LA on the other hand. much simpler..

as are the propsals from this thread..
show previous quotes

Amottica wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

What could go wrong rewriting whole game because... Reasons.

hyperbole much?

making LA cost resouces, or do dmg at end of animation isnt gonna require touching and risk breaking zones, quests, encounters, abd 99.9% of other things this game consists of..

Their comment was clearly addressing changes to the basic attack tying it to a GCD. That is a significant change to combat in the game. Yes, it would be a significant rewrite to it.

You don't code, do you?

even tying it to a gcd isn't gonna touch or break 99.99% of the game...

First, weaving LAs is part of what is called animation canceling or AC. In keeping things simple, there is hierarchy of actions we have in ESO with basic attacks being at the bottom, skills are next, and blocking has the highest priority. This is the design Zenimax created from the start to deal with our need to quickly react to incoming damage, which is more of a necessity than slower-placed games such as FF14.

As such the coding is not that simple and we know this for a fact because Zenimax has looked into this shortly after the game launched as AC was not an intended part of the design. In the end, they chose to keep it and make it officially a legitimate part of the game. This is something that is brought up in many threads concerning AC.

In other words, if it was as simple as you suggest and not create a lot of work it would have been eliminated long ago.

BTW, that information about AC and Zenimax's comments is brought up by many players in thread discussion animation canceling. It is widely known and goes beyond comments that I want this or I do not like that.

Hope this helps.

I did not change my mind. I just pointed out the issue with tying it to a GCD.

Further, while this was an unintended consequence of the design, Zenimax chose to keep it in the game and blessed it as a legitimate part of the game. So by definition, this is not a bug even if some choose to call it so. Regardless, it is not going away and will not be tied to a GCD.

Enjoyed the discussion. Enjoy the game. TTFN.

colossalvoids · July 2022

If you still can't comprehend all the changes it would require and the consequences it would bare it's pretty pointless discussion all along. If it would be a simple deal it would be dealt with years ago, if was a problem even.

Eiregirl · July 2022

merpins wrote: »

The problem with LA is it's too expensive to live there and big cities aren't a great place to raise a family.

There is no real problem with light attacks or light attack weaving, the problem is the fact that there is no tutorial in-game that teaches newer players how to weave effectively and why doing so is important for your gameplay. It was a bug in the beta, but the playerbase loved how dynamic it made combat feel. Without it, combat will feel 50% less dynamic over 20% of your damage. Sure, some players don't like it, but it's an important part of the game that the majority of the playerbase loves.

I don't think it needs a nerf or a change, in fact the current change just results in 1. going back to the old system from a few years ago that ZoS changed to go in a new direction, since it used to have a flat value of damage but they made it scale to try and raise the floor of the game... Huh, weird that they're changing it back now huh? And 2. it just makes the power gap bigger because now, in order to do good damage you not only need to LA weave, but you also need a maelstrom staff and you need to keep up wall of elements to deal good LA damage.

You are correct that the real problem is not with light attacks or weaving light attacks. The problem is with every dps player being forced to play a specific way in order to attain meaningful damage output especially in a game that has stated many times "Play your way".

There could be a one hour tutorial in the game and it would not help teach players to LA weave unless it was one that players could go back to over and over, besides it is not hard to do but does require a bit of coordination and practice. There is a tutorial to dodge, block and interrupt but as you travel around overland and in dungeons and trials how many players do you see that just don't know how to dodge, block or interrupt? toooo many

I am all for skilled light attack weavers to be at the top of the hill but the devs should provide other ways for players to attain meaningful damage output because this is a game and should be fun for all to enjoy playing and they are affectively destroying other ways of doing that while at the same time hurting LA builds as well.

Every build I have whether LA , HA or just pure class skills has suffered this PTS update but I feel they are not addressing the real problem or are not being forthcoming with what their real intent is.

If they are honestly trying to raise the floor they do not need to do that by crippling LA weaving. What they need to do is provide players that are less skilled at LA weaving or just outright do not want to weave light attacks other ways of producing meaningful damage output. As it was stated, that meaningful damage output does not have to be as high as skilled LA weavers but it should at least be in the same room.

MindOfTheSwarm · July 2022

The problem with getting rid of weaving is that you basically create a situation where Light Attacks never get used. But since Ultimate Regen counts on it, it would require a whole new rework of everything that relies on it. It was embraced by ZoS and has been built around for years. Getting rid of it is a massive under taking and comes with a whole boat load of issues that will take years to fix. Because of this, it won’t and shouldn’t happen.

SporkHero · July 2022

Instead of making weaving irrelevant or removing it completely, I would much rather see:

1. A proper tutorial put into the game to help teach weaving (as others have suggested).

and/or

2. Further embracing weaving. For example, instead of making weaving something that needs to be done immediately before an ability is cast, re-work the system and update animations so that you can light/heavy attack while casting skills, opening the time window to do so and hopefully make it easier to effectively weave.

Admittedly, option 2 would require a lot of input from the community, if it didn't end up feeling good it would obviously upset many.

angelofdeath333 · July 2022

What if you practiced instead of complaining? Is it really THAT hard to hit light attack->ability? Spend an hour by the dummy and just spam LA->One skill and you get in eventually...

aurelius_fx · July 2022

angelofdeath333 wrote: »

What if you practiced instead of complaining? Is it really THAT hard to hit light attack->ability? Spend an hour by the dummy and just spam LA->One skill and you get in eventually...

literally no one is arguing that it's difficult, it's just an ugly gimmicky mechanic that makes the game unnecessarily more complicated from people coming from literally any other game

pressing m1 every 1 second isn't what makes ESO a combat intense game, that's like adding a breathing button to a FPS shooter to make it 'more intense' because you need to memorize a metronome

angelofdeath333 · July 2022

aurelius_fx wrote: »

show previous quotes

angelofdeath333 wrote: »

What if you practiced instead of complaining? Is it really THAT hard to hit light attack->ability? Spend an hour by the dummy and just spam LA->One skill and you get in eventually...

literally no one is arguing that it's difficult, it's just an ugly gimmicky mechanic that makes the game unnecessarily more complicated from people coming from literally any other game

pressing m1 every 1 second isn't what makes ESO a combat intense game, that's like adding a breathing button to a FPS shooter to make it 'more intense' because you need to memorize a metronome

So what are they changing it if noone is complaining??