Siege weapons are incredibly underpowered.

geonsocal

@EF321 - thanks again, super helpful information...

i think only one of my toons has equipped vd, i play off-hours a lot, and my alliance gets run off the map...

pouring flaming oil, hitting them with a meatbag and ballista when they get off their ram, and then fighting them at the flags is a big part of gameplay...seriously, hard to feel bad about anything when you are about to get targeted and killed by lots of other alliance players...

generally from what i've seen - only coordinated teams will use siege shield and have a team member run a couple of trebuchets to drive you off the ramparts, then you just got to defend flags...

geonsocal

biminirwb17_ESO wrote: »

There is an area by the front door of every keep where even a squishy vamp NB can stand, be counted as on the RAM and the oils miss. Just up to people to find it. This is why many experienced groups seem to stand in oils - the oil doesn't hit them.

Holycannoli

EF321 wrote: »

Cold fire sieges and oils with Elf bane can hurt a lot.

This isn't even a great example I just recorded, but you can notice how it is way better than regular shots:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMpvUzs2D00

How did you get that viewpoint? Even when I zoom all the way out with siege it's too close.

geonsocal

EF321 wrote: »

geonsocal wrote: »

cold-fire plus elf bane - noted...

(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(3 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(5 items) While in combat, increases the duration of your Flame Damage over Time abilities by 5 seconds. This effect does not work with beam or channeled effects.

does it work with flaming oil also?

i'm guessing all of our champion points "interact" with siege weapons too?

- Siege dot can apply burning status effect, so holding charged weapon will greatly increase the chance. Extra dot - extra kill potential

- Earthgore has healing done line too, and it's proc will remove meatbag poo under your feet, so you can stay on siege longer
- Add siege shield, purge, volcanic rune / lightweight trap, blinding flare to protect yourself

you are a wealth of useful information thanks again...

Necrotech_Master

Holycannoli wrote: »

EF321 wrote: »

Cold fire sieges and oils with Elf bane can hurt a lot.

This isn't even a great example I just recorded, but you can notice how it is way better than regular shots:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMpvUzs2D00

How did you get that viewpoint? Even when I zoom all the way out with siege it's too close.

there are 2 different siege cameras

one is more "fixed" like a zoomed out over the shoulder one, and the other has a different angle and usually focused on where your aiming

there is an addon on PC that allows you to set a keybind to toggle between the 2 camera modes (as certain siege are almost unusable in the "fixed" camera)

EF321

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

EF321 wrote: »

Cold fire sieges and oils with Elf bane can hurt a lot.

This isn't even a great example I just recorded, but you can notice how it is way better than regular shots:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMpvUzs2D00

How did you get that viewpoint? Even when I zoom all the way out with siege it's too close.

there are 2 different siege cameras

one is more "fixed" like a zoomed out over the shoulder one, and the other has a different angle and usually focused on where your aiming

there is an addon on PC that allows you to set a keybind to toggle between the 2 camera modes (as certain siege are almost unusable in the "fixed" camera)

Yes, dedicated little keybind addon is called Siege Camera Toggle, Bandit's UI has that keybind built in as well.

Both camera's can be rather terrible or outright unusable at times, especially if you place siege next to wall or tree, none will help. But in some situations, one will be better than another.

Dojohoda

I have ideas

When you hit 9 players or more with the same hit, certain seige will have an additional effect, otherwise the seige does its normal damage and debuffs:
Oils reduce healing received by x amount for x seconds.
Meatbags reduce armor by x amount for x seconds.
Fire sieges cause players to take x amount more damage for x seconds.
Scattershot causes players to trip and fall down.
---
When 10 stone trebuchets hits the same wall within 1.5 seconds (about at the same time) the seige does double damage. (because synced trebs are a glorious sight)

Ice seige snares players.
Ice seige against walls makes wall brittle and take more damage from stone seige.

Luke_Flamesword

Sieges are fine, if they will be too strong, then attacking a keep will be almost imposible and defending will be too easy in scenarios with many sieges.

Dagoth_Rac

There was one patch a few years ago where siege got buffed. It made defense too easy and keeps were not flipping and the map was very static. I think ZOS like the idea of siege being minimally effective against players. For the many casual players who just log in for 30 or 60 minutes, typing "x" in chat, zerging up and taking a few keeps is fun and exciting. If anti-player siege turns into a zerg killer, making affecting the map become harder, it will likely have a negative effect on Cyrodiil population numbers. I doubt ZOS want to negatively impact one of the few playstyles in PVP that is somewhat casual-friendly.

Necrotech_Master

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

There was one patch a few years ago where siege got buffed. It made defense too easy and keeps were not flipping and the map was very static. I think ZOS like the idea of siege being minimally effective against players. For the many casual players who just log in for 30 or 60 minutes, typing "x" in chat, zerging up and taking a few keeps is fun and exciting. If anti-player siege turns into a zerg killer, making affecting the map become harder, it will likely have a negative effect on Cyrodiil population numbers. I doubt ZOS want to negatively impact one of the few playstyles in PVP that is somewhat casual-friendly.

the problem i see in cyro is that the map already generally feels static except for between 1-3 keep fights (only 1 of which will be large and 2 will be small scale or pvdoor), but this is more of an issue with the pop caps being so low

honestly though i think it would almost make sense to leave some of the 7 day camps up year round, they might be dead most of the time but then there would be a better place for people to try to do the delves and skyshards and non-pvp stuff without eating up the small pop caps of the main camps

Holycannoli

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

there are 2 different siege cameras

one is more "fixed" like a zoomed out over the shoulder one, and the other has a different angle and usually focused on where your aiming

there is an addon on PC that allows you to set a keybind to toggle between the 2 camera modes (as certain siege are almost unusable in the "fixed" camera)

What?? How long has there been 2 siege cameras?

Ok I'm looking for this addon as soon as I get home. I can't see crap with siege weapons anymore and I just assumed that was how it was supposed to be from now on.

Necrotech_Master

Holycannoli wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

there are 2 different siege cameras

one is more "fixed" like a zoomed out over the shoulder one, and the other has a different angle and usually focused on where your aiming

there is an addon on PC that allows you to set a keybind to toggle between the 2 camera modes (as certain siege are almost unusable in the "fixed" camera)

What?? How long has there been 2 siege cameras?

Ok I'm looking for this addon as soon as I get home. I can't see crap with siege weapons anymore and I just assumed that was how it was supposed to be from now on.

by default there is an option to change them in the settings menu, but without the addon you manually have to go into this menu to change the camera everytime you want to change the camera, so generally your stuck with one or the other

the toggling addon greatly helps because certain siege such as the ballista/trebs have a perfectly useable "fixed" camera, but the catapults and lancers have incredibly horrible "fixed" cameras

MISTFORMBZZZ

I want siege to oneshot everything so i dont need to get my build setup anymore and can shoot everyone from the safe range.

Veinblood1965

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

Just last week people were complaining about siege was so over powered.

It's a new week. Next week is Dark Convergence week then the week after that the forum daily rewards will be regarding fake tanks. Just be patient the week after is Siege OP.

CaperGuy

I agree that siege damage is underwhelming. Especially like…. Direct hits with it. If someone gets bullseyed by a giant flaming pot from a trebuchet, they should pretty much be turned into a pile of ash and bone, not just be like ‘ow, quit it. ‘ pop a heal and be fine.

Holycannoli

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Sieges are fine, if they will be too strong, then attacking a keep will be almost imposible and defending will be too easy in scenarios with many sieges.

What I propose is simple: A limit of one (1) siege weapon deployed per player, and siege does more damage vs players, maybe 10%-15% more.

And defending a keep should be easier than attacking, if numbers are equal. I remember a time when it was almost necessary to attack a keep from multiple sides, because just focusing on the gate or a single wall was death. You had to split the defenders to breach the wall. As it should be. It also makes siege shields a lot more useful when you have to actually worry about incoming siege damage.

Granted we had larger population caps then but it can still work fine today.

darvaria

At one time, on some podcast, ZOS said they were going to make siege, like coldfire, have a VD type effect. The cross healing makes it almost impossible to kill the ball groups. Eventually, one of the weaker runners will fall. The timing on siege attacks needs to be instant, no cold down too.

Of course you could turn off unlimited cross heals. Example 2 regens, 2 echoing is all that should hit ppl. They should only have 4 hots on at one time.

Jaraal

Holycannoli wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Siege is absolutely underpowered. The only ones who complain about the siege are the ones who think they should be able to stand in a red zone and not take any damage.

However, if myself and other players have a killbox set up on the keep front door; IE: Meatbags hitting the entrance with oils...enemies should not be able to just stroll through that AoE damage and take hardly any damage. Either cross healing is too OP or the siege damage is too underpowered. What's the point of using meatbags and oils if they aren't going to deal enough damage to push back enemies?

Cross healing is too OP. That's basically it.

I do think siege is underpowered - I mean you don't often even see siege shields anymore - but cross healing is totally out of control.

The reason you don’t see many siege shields any more is because most people are running Oakensoul and don’t have room for it on their one bar build.

Jaraal

Holycannoli wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

there are 2 different siege cameras

one is more "fixed" like a zoomed out over the shoulder one, and the other has a different angle and usually focused on where your aiming

there is an addon on PC that allows you to set a keybind to toggle between the 2 camera modes (as certain siege are almost unusable in the "fixed" camera)

What?? How long has there been 2 siege cameras?

Ok I'm looking for this addon as soon as I get home. I can't see crap with siege weapons anymore and I just assumed that was how it was supposed to be from now on.

I’ve been using constrained view for years. Gives you much greater visibility, especially next to walls. And especially with meat bags and lancers.

SillyGT

I completely disagree with this post. I've played this game since console launch and have died to siege realistically 35% of the time since started playing. Seen countless death recaps of 25k trebuchets and fire ballista dots. I'd suggest purely making them only apply their unique status effects. Not only is this far too strong but it would be better overall for the gameplay and health of the game. In my time playing (over 7 1/2 years) it is never just siege it is always a large of amount of people trying to kill you and on top of over tuned siege equipment. I believe a siege play style should exist in the game for sure but needs to be looked at. Being able to just sit 60+ meters and instantly nuke someone with a trebuchet is a little strong, even comparable to pre nerf oakensoul ganking.

YandereGirlfriend

I feel like there's always a fairly strong bias toward the CP campaigns when it comes to discussions about the power of siege. In Ravenwatch, without the aid of a bunch of additional mitigation sources and sets, siege is much more potent.

As it is, though, siege, and especially massed oils inside of keeps, are what keep organized groups up at night. Since purge isn't a thing in CP-Land, groups are eating all of those stacked DoTs and it's probably your best chance to wipe them when they're under pressure from them. You'll still probably need a coordinated bomb to finish them off but the oils DO hurt and they are nullifying a ton of their stacked HoTs' throughput.

At the end of an organized raid, the top sources of incoming damage are literally always siege equipment of various stripes, with oils almost always being #1. The #2 source is typically meatbags. So they really are doing millions and millions of damage. You might say that they are necessary but not typically sufficient by themselves to defeat a strong group. And that is probably how things should be.

DrSlaughtr

I enjoy shooting 30k health DKs and templars with cold fire just to watch their health never drop from the 7k ticks.

Honestly seems like the only people who die to siege are NBs or people who take multiple undefended hits due to desync.

afkpro

sieges are fine. the issue is entirely with stupid sets and healing.

was in a camp recently where a ball group just stood at the front door on a ram with siege shield up taking damage from 1 or 2 oils, 1 meatbag, 1 lightning ballista and 1 shock lancer. it didn't look like they were threatened. didn't see any deaths. definitely didn't see them trying to avoid any of the damage.

that's all the spam cross healing and wear stupid sets like mara's balm bs...not the siege damage in my opinion.

CaperGuy

I would be super happy to see sources of heal absorption buffed (soldier of anguish, traumatic poisons, borrowed time), to add more sources of heal absorption and to get the old major and minor defile values back for sure. As far as siege damage goes, I think it should be buffed. At least the anti-player damage. Make the weapons themselves lower health or something to compensate. Punish attackers and defenders for not having siege shields.

Jaraal

We had a Mara's troll tank in our keep the other day, just standing on the wall. He was taking multiple coldfires and meatbags to the face while 10 people were parsing on him, and his health never went down. Eventually, we all stopped fighting, and were just standing around looking at each other. He didn't want to leave, and we couldn't make him. So we just stood around and hit him with a light attack every 30 seconds or so. Got a nice string of D ticks. After about an hour of cheap AP, most of us just left. No idea what became of the guy. Probably got tired of wasting time and left too.

DrSlaughtr

Jaraal wrote: »

We had a Mara's troll tank in our keep the other day, just standing on the wall. He was taking multiple coldfires and meatbags to the face while 10 people were parsing on him, and his health never went down. Eventually, we all stopped fighting, and were just standing around looking at each other. He didn't want to leave, and we couldn't make him. So we just stood around and hit him with a light attack every 30 seconds or so. Got a nice string of D ticks. After about an hour of cheap AP, most of us just left. No idea what became of the guy. Probably got tired of wasting time and left too.

It's the worst BUT knockbacks are you friend. Magnum shot, leap, etc.

Holycannoli

Jaraal wrote: »

We had a Mara's troll tank in our keep the other day, just standing on the wall. He was taking multiple coldfires and meatbags to the face while 10 people were parsing on him, and his health never went down. Eventually, we all stopped fighting, and were just standing around looking at each other. He didn't want to leave, and we couldn't make him. So we just stood around and hit him with a light attack every 30 seconds or so. Got a nice string of D ticks. After about an hour of cheap AP, most of us just left. No idea what became of the guy. Probably got tired of wasting time and left too.

That's happened a few times so far, and the problem is they can run around destroying your siege and you can't stop them.

If you're lucky someone has Magnum Shot and he runs near an edge. I can personally attest to how fun it is to knock one of these troll tank builds out of the keep.

Let's see what next week's nerf brings. This is all Mara's Balm.

geonsocal

SillyGT wrote: »

Being able to just sit 60+ meters and instantly nuke someone with a trebuchet is a little strong,

i'm conflicted on this, very frustrating to be on the receiving end of this, particularly when there no visual incoming signal...you're dead and that's it, not much warning especially in large battles...

on the other hand, it is a lot of fun targeting others players on their siege and dropping them from long range with just one shot...

CaperGuy

geonsocal wrote: »

SillyGT wrote: »

Being able to just sit 60+ meters and instantly nuke someone with a trebuchet is a little strong,

i'm conflicted on this, very frustrating to be on the receiving end of this, particularly when there no visual incoming signal...you're dead and that's it, not much warning especially in large battles...

on the other hand, it is a lot of fun targeting others players on their siege and dropping them from long range with just one shot...

I’m not conflicted. It’s an immersion thing I think for me. If I get directly hit in the face with a slow, telegraphed trebuchet ball, I think it’s fair that I should die, unless I have special magic barriers deliberately put up to blunt some of the damage (siege shield, barrier, etc) in which case I would expect to be still hurting but possibly alive.

Jaraal

Holycannoli wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

We had a Mara's troll tank in our keep the other day, just standing on the wall. He was taking multiple coldfires and meatbags to the face while 10 people were parsing on him, and his health never went down. Eventually, we all stopped fighting, and were just standing around looking at each other. He didn't want to leave, and we couldn't make him. So we just stood around and hit him with a light attack every 30 seconds or so. Got a nice string of D ticks. After about an hour of cheap AP, most of us just left. No idea what became of the guy. Probably got tired of wasting time and left too.

That's happened a few times so far, and the problem is they can run around destroying your siege and you can't stop them.

If you're lucky someone has Magnum Shot and he runs near an edge. I can personally attest to how fun it is to knock one of these troll tank builds out of the keep.

Let's see what next week's nerf brings. This is all Mara's Balm.

Yeah he was in the inner keep when we took the flags, started running around the balcony burning siege, but we kept bashing him and repairing. Somebody finally knocked him off into the courtyard, where he camped out on the outer wall. Funny thing is, there was a tower *** from the third faction running around killing people and LOSing, and nobody could stop him, either. At one point we had all three factions gathered at the same place on the wall in a standoff. It was amusing, but annoying at the same time.