NB Tank changes

p4l4mu7

Nb tank recieved only tiny buffs and constant major nerfs over the period of last couple years, they first changed dark cloak into a weaker less reliable version dragon blood and then decided it was still too good for people and nerfed it again. [snip] but from my years of experience I can tell combat team was only pushing people away from the game, I can't even think of the last time combat team provided a decent combat change idea. Zos should be really listening the experienced veteran players [snip] when they go for major combat changes.


[edited for bashing]

jecks33

Nb tank was literally the last source of fun in this game for me. Was....

Necrotech_Master

i mean you see how much hate they have for warden DPS, so they dont seem to want all classes to do all roles lol

jecks33

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i mean you see how much hate they have for warden DPS, so they dont seem to want all classes to do all roles lol

"play as you want" but only the way we want

TheGreatBlackBear

It's only a problem if you were one of the brainless saps pressing cloak at 90%. "the experienced veteran players" will just wait until they're below 50% and heal then to avoid wasting a gcd by overhealing and sustain through leeching strikes.

p4l4mu7

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

It's only a problem if you were one of the brainless saps pressing cloak at 90%. "the experienced veteran players" will just wait until they're below 50% and heal then to avoid wasting a gcd by overhealing and sustain through leeching strikes.

I'll keep in mind to sustain with leeching strikes' 100 healing per attack against bahsei's debuff while she does 10k dot and 8k light attack per second thank you very much.
You do realize you are defending a burst healing over time skill, put these two together they tried to make a burst healing out of healing over time.

Csleia

im certain the person who thought this made sense was testing tank healing with over 80k health

TheGreatBlackBear

p4l4mu7 wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

It's only a problem if you were one of the brainless saps pressing cloak at 90%. "the experienced veteran players" will just wait until they're below 50% and heal then to avoid wasting a gcd by overhealing and sustain through leeching strikes.

I'll keep in mind to sustain with leeching strikes' 100 healing per attack against bahsei's debuff while she does 10k dot and 8k light attack per second thank you very much.
You do realize you are defending a burst healing over time skill, put these two together they tried to make a burst healing out of healing over time.

Because Bashei is the only boss in the game right? And you're solo tanking on a NB with no healers or co tank helping you right? Bone shield exists as a cheap and readily available source of major vit, blood altar exists, we're playing in a meta where overhealing is encouraged with SPC, something that will not change in U35. You have CP that affects your healing taken. Your healer can use a BRP resto. There are many many tools survive VRG depending how sweaty your group is. Try again.
Using cloak properly, in conjunction with other tolls available to you at the indented health threshold will in no way shape or form make you die.

Lykeion

One thing I liked about ESO is that while there is an optimal choice, each class can play as a dps, healer, and tank. ZOS proved me wrong, all the effort I put into NB healer and NB tank went up in smoke. NB should only be dps, spamming the surprise attack as they want it to be.

Dagobertfuk

Players hate towards ZOS is bigger than anything in this world.

Iron_Blurr

Let's do some math.. You're in pvp as a NB. You have 25k health.
You take damage and now you are at half health which is 12.5k
Your dark cloak heals for 14% of what you're missing. So your first tick heals for 1,750 right? WRONG! You have battle spirit active so it's half that.
Here's your biggest tick of 875 health. And as soon as it ticks once your health moves up so it heals for less and less. How much lower can it even get?? It's already under 1k healing per second.
Let's say you are at 75% of your health.
That's 18,750 health. You are missing 6,250.
So what's 14% of 6,250? Well that's 875 health. But wait cut that in half for battle spirit. Yay that's a fat 437.5 health per second and it gets weaker every second!

Let's say you are a tank with 45k health. You take a big hit from a trial boss and you are now at half health. You are missing 22.5k health. What is 14% of that? 3,150 health. But the heal gets weaker and weaker the higher your health gets.
At that rate of 3k healing per second (which is more than it would be since the heal gets weaker and weaker every second) it would take you approximately 8 seconds to heal back up to full health. 22.5/3=7.5 and it's actually longer than that since the heal gets weaker over time and you continue to take damage from the boss you are trying to tank.
It will take forever to heal up enough to survive another big hit. If you get back to back heavy attacks you will die before to you can even heal yourself back up to full.

Necrotech_Master

Iron_Blurr wrote: »

Let's do some math.. You're in pvp as a NB. You have 25k health.
You take damage and now you are at half health which is 12.5k
Your dark cloak heals for 14% of what you're missing. So your first tick heals for 1,750 right? WRONG! You have battle spirit active so it's half that.
Here's your biggest tick of 875 health. And as soon as it ticks once your health moves up so it heals for less and less. How much lower can it even get?? It's already under 1k healing per second.
Let's say you are at 75% of your health.
That's 18,750 health. You are missing 6,250.
So what's 14% of 6,250? Well that's 875 health. But wait cut that in half for battle spirit. Yay that's a fat 437.5 health per second and it gets weaker every second!

Let's say you are a tank with 45k health. You take a big hit from a trial boss and you are now at half health. You are missing 22.5k health. What is 14% of that? 3,150 health. But the heal gets weaker and weaker the higher your health gets.
At that rate of 3k healing per second (which is more than it would be since the heal gets weaker and weaker every second) it would take you approximately 8 seconds to heal back up to full health. 22.5/3=7.5 and it's actually longer than that since the heal gets weaker over time and you continue to take damage from the boss you are trying to tank.
It will take forever to heal up enough to survive another big hit. If you get back to back heavy attacks you will die before to you can even heal yourself back up to full.

yup, this is a problem i noticed with green dragon blood too for DK

at least the coagulating blood has a base fixed heal before it is scaled based on missing health

the way they should handle this is have a portion which is fixed, like even 1-2k per sec and then that can be scaled up based on missing health

Dagobertfuk

Im talking from pvp perspective, with halfed heal

Dark Cloak how it is on actual PTS will be a Skill nobody will use ever again. A nerf for no *** reason. Like it was stronger than other Heals. Vigor was way stronger. And since vigor gets major resolve its even less worth it, to even think about using it as a Nightblade.

My Nightblade in Cyrodiil on live servers with 40k HP gets 2,6k hps with dark cloak. After the first Dark Cloak Nerf in pts week one or two, i had to be 50% Player HP to get the heal value from live servers. Right now on pts after the second nerf, i have to be at 10% player HP to get almost old value of 2520 hps. I did the math with the pts maximum of 14%. Even Vampire Drain, a skill nobody with more than 2 braincells is using in PvP to heal up, heals more than actual PTS Dark Cloak.

Any reason why anyone should use PTS Dark Cloak instead of another healing ability other than for style? I can't think of any. Mainly because every other healing ability heals me more by a frightening margin, no matter how much HP I have, except at 10% where Dark Cloak get it old healing value.
Image when i dont have 40k HP. Hard to imagine but it gets even worse rofl.

But a skill that only really works, when i am already with both legs in the grave, in execute range and eating 400% extra dmg from enemy execute's, is a total abilityslot waste.

When zos worked on dark cloak their minds were elsewhere.

Brrrofski

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

It's only a problem if you were one of the brainless saps pressing cloak at 90%. "the experienced veteran players" will just wait until they're below 50% and heal then to avoid wasting a gcd by overhealing and sustain through leeching strikes.

Thanks.

I'll keep that in mind in PvP and get 3k ticks at 20% health when people are hitting me 10k executioners.

Should keep me alive.

Dagobertfuk

Brrrofski wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

It's only a problem if you were one of the brainless saps pressing cloak at 90%. "the experienced veteran players" will just wait until they're below 50% and heal then to avoid wasting a gcd by overhealing and sustain through leeching strikes.

Thanks.

I'll keep that in mind in PvP and get 3k ticks at 20% health when people are hitting me 10k executioners.

Should keep me alive.

You would need 55k max HP, for 3k Dark Cloak heals at 20% HP. Have fun running around useless without killing anything.

edward_frigidhands

Dagobertfuk wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

It's only a problem if you were one of the brainless saps pressing cloak at 90%. "the experienced veteran players" will just wait until they're below 50% and heal then to avoid wasting a gcd by overhealing and sustain through leeching strikes.

Thanks.

I'll keep that in mind in PvP and get 3k ticks at 20% health when people are hitting me 10k executioners.

Should keep me alive.

You would need 55k max HP, for 3k Dark Cloak heals at 20% HP. Have fun running around useless without killing anything.

3k heals at 20% health with battle spirit up means his max health is 50k tops. That's assuming the 3k is a 15% tick.

emilyhyoyeon

What I don't understand is why they changed this skill at all. They have not explained it. And it's not a spreadsheet problem--the skill was reworked.

edward_frigidhands

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Dagobertfuk wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

It's only a problem if you were one of the brainless saps pressing cloak at 90%. "the experienced veteran players" will just wait until they're below 50% and heal then to avoid wasting a gcd by overhealing and sustain through leeching strikes.

Thanks.

I'll keep that in mind in PvP and get 3k ticks at 20% health when people are hitting me 10k executioners.

Should keep me alive.

You would need 55k max HP, for 3k Dark Cloak heals at 20% HP. Have fun running around useless without killing anything.

3k heals at 20% health with battle spirit up means his max health is 50k tops. That's assuming the 3k is a 15% tick.

Just realized that Battle Spirit is actually 55% so you might be right there.

However, that makes his point about how terrible the new version of Dark Cloak is even more prominent.

Holycannoli

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i mean you see how much hate they have for warden DPS, so they dont seem to want all classes to do all roles lol

That's not necessarily a bad thing as I'm generally against the idea of all classes being able to do all roles just as effectively, but nightblades aren't exactly the best DPS either. Magblades in particular.

Dagobertfuk

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Dagobertfuk wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

It's only a problem if you were one of the brainless saps pressing cloak at 90%. "the experienced veteran players" will just wait until they're below 50% and heal then to avoid wasting a gcd by overhealing and sustain through leeching strikes.

Thanks.

I'll keep that in mind in PvP and get 3k ticks at 20% health when people are hitting me 10k executioners.

Should keep me alive.

You would need 55k max HP, for 3k Dark Cloak heals at 20% HP. Have fun running around useless without killing anything.

3k heals at 20% health with battle spirit up means his max health is 50k tops. That's assuming the 3k is a 15% tick.

Ofc with battlespirit. How i already pointed out. Im talking from pvp perspective. I have no idea why you calculate with 15% although 14% is the maximum value. With your 50,000 max HP it's 2800 heals. Its ca. 350 heal every 10% missing HP from 50k max HP. Ist so *** bad. Anyway, still doesn't change the fact that you kill *** with that many stats you sacrice to get that much HP.

Atleast DK gets his heal + all his heal modifiers back from missing health as burstheal. But Dark Cloak gets just weaker with every ticks, while its already super weak.

edward_frigidhands

Dagobertfuk wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Dagobertfuk wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

It's only a problem if you were one of the brainless saps pressing cloak at 90%. "the experienced veteran players" will just wait until they're below 50% and heal then to avoid wasting a gcd by overhealing and sustain through leeching strikes.

Thanks.

I'll keep that in mind in PvP and get 3k ticks at 20% health when people are hitting me 10k executioners.

Should keep me alive.

You would need 55k max HP, for 3k Dark Cloak heals at 20% HP. Have fun running around useless without killing anything.

3k heals at 20% health with battle spirit up means his max health is 50k tops. That's assuming the 3k is a 15% tick.

Ofc with battlespirit. How i already pointed out. Im talking from pvp perspective. I have no idea why you calculate with 15% although 14% is the maximum value. With your 50,000 max HP it's 2800 heals. Its ca. 350 heal every 10% missing HP from 50k max HP. Ist so *** bad. Anyway, still doesn't change the fact that you kill *** with that many stats you sacrice to get that much HP.

Atleast DK gets his heal + all his heal modifiers back from missing health as burstheal. But Dark Cloak gets just weaker with every ticks, while its already super weak.

We can both agree that the DK heal is massively stronger and it is bad design to implement a missing health heal into a HoT.

The DK heal is able to retrieve almost 45% of missing health in a single cast due to all of the class specific buffs present.

The version of Dark Cloak presented to us for U35 does not even come close in strength and viability.