Is power creep an issue?

Tannus15

So, i've been doing a bunch of reading on the forums and watching video's by content creators, talking to friends and thinking about this update, and it feels to me that ZoS started the whole thing with this simple premise:

Power creep is bad and we need to fix it.

All their decisions in update 35 stem from this assumption.
Dps needs to come down so we'll nerf it. Healing needs to stay in line with dps so we'll nerf that too.

But my question to ZoS and the community at large is why? Why is power creep bad?

Sure, the "tippy top" are clearing older content super fast, but that doesn't negatively affect anyone. Literally no one has a worse game experience because the score pushers are so amazing.
Other people are able to clear content for the first time, from normal maelstrom, to vet dungeons to vet trial HM's. These people are having a better time. Why is this a problem? Feels like a good thing to me.
The game isn't trivial, people are still struggling with their own level of content all the way from overland to vRG HM. there is something to work on for everyone except those at the very top of the mountain.

So is power creep really a problem?

ESO_Nightingale

The more powercreep, the easier it is for newer players to get into more difficult content, and some of the hardmodes for vet trials can be insanely hard progs even still. i think if they keep introducing difficult vet content like vRG and vDSR. it's fine.

Sandman929

Maybe they need to stop making content that requires them to keep making sets that keep making more powerful builds.
There is no "power creep", there's just a history of bad decisions by the devs that they suddenly decided they needed to undo.

chessalavakia_ESO

Power creep is Bad

Much of the game's content that isn't really hard is a less enjoyable experience if you end up running into someone that does lots of DPS because they burn content down too fast.

The high damage players also create expectations that have a negative impact on player's experience as well as pushing for content that has higher and higher requirements.

With that said, power creep being a problem does not necessarily mean you change much of the game in a single patch to address it.

Pevey

ZOS introduces sets that add power creep to get people interested in doing the new content. They need to add something we feel is worthwhile to farm. Not just dps sets, but healer and tank sets, too. People don't bother unless the utility sets will help improve uptimes. Bottom line, ZOS creates power creep as a business decision.

Then, to try to keep power in check, they do periodic nerfs across the board. Nerfs from "standardization," nerfs from move from CP 1.0 to CP 2.0, further nerfs to CP 2.0, etc. Almost every patch there is something.

Result: the difference between the floor and the ceiling widens.

This is not complicated.

Combat team maybe will understand it if someone puts it in a spreadsheet.

Matteo11

I think power-creep will be an issue in any MMO, since they have to introduce more and more powerful rewards/challenges to keep the game fun.

Most games deal with it by introducing new tiers of gear, bottlenecks that allow devs to adjust things like set bonus and stat distribution as they see fit.

ESO is in a unique position since its tier level has been set for over 7 years, and they allow a billion different sets to be used on any given content. I think its cool, and different, but I think they really have to consider factors of balance carefully.

What they can't do is just globally strip power here, a month into a new raid. Its highly demotivating and unhealthy for the game. U35 is the antithesis of what I just said keeps an MMO fun. It is the polar opposite of what a ESO needs in this time and climate.

They are pretty much trying to set us back a couple of 'levels', but there is not a newly adjusted power level for us to aspire to. Its the same content we've been doing, suddenly harder.

It would be much better if ZOS balanced combat globally, once or twice a year, and accepted the fact that groups might clear SOME content a little faster than anticipated. Happy ESO players will make tons of alts and do the content repeatedly.

Thats a lot better than taking the hammer to the power fantasy every 3 months. It plays with player trust and looks careless.

Most games will make a bunch of nerfs and changes BEFORE a new xpac/raid comes out, and then again before the next tier.. ZOS not only overdoes it, but the timing promotes a gross feeling that they want people to buy content packs before seeing nerfs.

BretonMage

Well, it depends. If power creep is fairly uniform across the board, I don't think it's that bad, because no one will suffer from it. If the power creep is concentrated at the top, and prevents other players from accessing difficult content, that might be a problem.

Kusto

Power creep is Bad

Powercreep has only created more elitists, toxicity and gatekeeping.
Years ago, when the top players were hitting 70-80k, the floor was still doing 10k like today. And mid tier players were actually doing vet content just fine with their 30-40k. But now the gap has widened insanely and even if you parse 80k today, you're still looked down. Because the top players parse 120-130k the raid requirements have increased. But when we talking about older content like vMoL for example, nothing changed there. Top was parsing 30k on 3mil back then and was able to clear hm. Now, if you wanna get into vMoL hm with your 60k dps, you will be laughed at. It's just that the power creep has allowed mechanics skipping and fast clears so it has become the norm and no other way is acceptable anymore. 3 pad burn or go home.
I've seen tanks rage in dungeons when group dps was "only " 100k. I also pugged vCR+0 the other day and 1 dps insisted to solo portals at Zmaja fight. And when he failed he blamed the tank not using ele drain on crystals, no Sax, TT etc. We wanted to send another dps with him but he kept refusing. "I solo this, you guys l2p".
Not all top end players are elitists but when they are used to play with others similar to their skill level and then go to some random pug, then they often expect and force their strats on them.
Overall, powercreep has increased expectations and added more unnecessary pressure to casuals and mid tier. It would be healthy for the community if Zos could close the gap somehow, even if it means heavy nerfs. At least we all get to do mechanics again.

Tannus15

@Kusto most of what you're talking about isn't power creep at all, it's confusion about what the dummy's and the numbers mean.

ZoS has kept adding buffs to the trial dummy, so the 60k of yesterday is the 80k of today, because if you did exactly the same rotation on the same character in the same gear, that's what you got.

I did a parse the other day on PTS on the 21m with julianos and Orders wrath and got 88k dps. I then used the same build, swapping dark conversion for ele drain, on the 3m dummy and got 40k. The requirements for the vAS+2 prog I joined back in the day were 40k on a 6m. That was years ago. So if that translates to 88k on the 21m, it sounds like things haven't changed that much.

@BretonMage this is kind of where the problem with this patch comes from. Most of the power creep over the years has come from the buffs and debuffs and uptimes and a few very strong sets. Nerfing skills and classes in an attempt to push back against group coordination feels wrong and everyone knows it.
My question about power creep is, so what? So what if the ceiling can be so high when the way it gets their is not individual power but teamwork and immaculate timing.
You didn't see them make everyone play in sandals because Michael Jordon was really good at basketball.

BretonMage

Tannus15 wrote: »

@BretonMage this is kind of where the problem with this patch comes from. Most of the power creep over the years has come from the buffs and debuffs and uptimes and a few very strong sets. Nerfing skills and classes in an attempt to push back against group coordination feels wrong and everyone knows it.

Totally agree with you. I think they got it completely backwards here.

My question about power creep is, so what? So what if the ceiling can be so high when the way it gets their is not individual power but teamwork and immaculate timing.
You didn't see them make everyone play in sandals because Michael Jordon was really good at basketball.

I think that power creep is a non-issue if everyone gets the opportunities they need to complete the content they want. I imagine the problem arises when less experienced players are being left behind because the ceiling keeps getting raised, leading to increased expectations that these players cannot meet. Haven't players been complaining about minimum requirements which keep edging up each year? And if the ceiling is raised because some teams are better than others, well, I'm pleased for them, but then what about those players without access to a good team? I think ideally everyone should be able to work towards playing the content they want, and not in the next decade, but imminently.

Vexen

Power creep is Good

everyone gets the opportunities they need to complete the content they want

Everyone DOES get the opportunity to complete the content they want to, but not everyone chooses to. You don't just walk in and do 120k. Not everyone will parse and practice and min max gears and stats. That's OK. Does that mean though the people who don't do those things should be able to clear the same things.

People can see and participate in content. Sunspire 'looks' mostly the same whether you're doing it on normal or hm. Casual players are just that - casual. Why attempt to level the playing fields of things? I'm so tired of people thinking they deserve things just because they see someone else that has it. (btw, I'm not a 120k player)

If anything, you're hurting the ability to run friends through trials. Sometimes you can bring in a casual friend to hardmodes if you want, but you won't be able to do anything like that at all after this patch.

Pet

Power creep is Good

The power creep is good imo because it means they can get more creative with difficulty on newer content. Sure, it somewhat makes older content "outdated", but that's not necessarily a bad thing, it makes it all more accessible for the lower end players which is what they claim to be trying to do, right?

IZZEFlameLash

Power creep is Good

By having powercreep, it is basically building tiers of contents for every skill level. And powercreep always will exist. There's no use for base game contents to be as difficult as DLC ones tbf.

UnknownResults

Power creep is Bad

I vote power creep is bad, mostly due to how much we have of it. What makes it worse imo is a lot of the newest group content is made based off of it.

BretonMage wrote: »

Well, it depends. If power creep is fairly uniform across the board, I don't think it's that bad, because no one will suffer from it. If the power creep is concentrated at the top, and prevents other players from accessing difficult content, that might be a problem.

I think this sums my thoughts up nicely, I personally feel that the current power creep is top heavy. I feel this way mostly due to the sweeping changes being made most updates set a lot of new/mid game players back rather than forward.

divnyi

Power creep is Good

I'd rather see bit by bit increasing power with new sets than nerfing all old sets and usable skills.
Buff and rework old unusable sets and skills to be useful too.

They want progression for newer players? Well this is progression - old content becomes simpler, new content is as hard as it gets for current power level.

ToRelax

Power creep is Bad

Power creep allows for more and more extreme builds over time, because it effects every part of a character's combat potential. This leads to more and more one-dimensional builds.

mmtaniac

Power creep is Bad

Yes power creep is issue , especially in pvp i like killing in pvp fast but sometimes is just impossible to kill heals do too much. And many times on this forum we get posts about overland content is to easy for veteran players now will be harder.

ZiggyTStardust

Power Creep is only an issue when it makes the game too easy and thus boring for new players. This is not really the case.

However to call Power Creep good I think would also be wrong (At least as far as increase in damage goes), ideally the game dps would just stay a constant, and all the trials would be of a similar (difficult) diffculty as far as dps and heal checks go, with a rise in complexity of mechanics and coordiantion required.

The reason we even have power creep is of course because they keeps releasing more powerful sets to sell their chapters, as if their content wasn't good enough to sell the chapters by itself (though some would argue it isn't)

Dawnblade

Power creep is Bad

Some level of power creep over time is almost unavoidable.

Power creep of the magnitude seen in ESO over the past few years is unsustainable and unhealthy.

Current power creep in ESO is a direct result of ZOS' actions over time, particularly their habit of dropping ever more powerful sets into the game to drive DLC sales, yet it will be the players who will bear the brunt of any changes.

ZOS should apologize for allowing power creep of such magnitude to plague the game, and commit to doing their part to prevent further power creep in the future by refraining from using OP items and sets to drive sales.

Of course, we all know they won't apologize or stop creating the very messes they claim to be cleaning up with all their changes.

silver1surfer69

Tannus15 wrote: »

So, i've been doing a bunch of reading on the forums and watching video's by content creators, talking to friends and thinking about this update, and it feels to me that ZoS started the whole thing with this simple premise:

Power creep is bad and we need to fix it.

All their decisions in update 35 stem from this assumption.
Dps needs to come down so we'll nerf it. Healing needs to stay in line with dps so we'll nerf that too.

But my question to ZoS and the community at large is why? Why is power creep bad?

Sure, the "tippy top" are clearing older content super fast, but that doesn't negatively affect anyone. Literally no one has a worse game experience because the score pushers are so amazing.
Other people are able to clear content for the first time, from normal maelstrom, to vet dungeons to vet trial HM's. These people are having a better time. Why is this a problem? Feels like a good thing to me.
The game isn't trivial, people are still struggling with their own level of content all the way from overland to vRG HM. there is something to work on for everyone except those at the very top of the mountain.

So is power creep really a problem?

I guess the answer is because it largens the gap between normal and high end players.

The vast majority are normal players and zos wants to make the game for this adience to be a plesurable expereince. Normal players should be able to keep up with ´good´players and shouldnt be intimiidated by them, thats the zos logic i guess.

The quetion is imo, is that possible at all. 1 small experience from last update: oakensoul was made with this goal in mind and what happens is, the experienced players take this and get even more powerfull, so the goal was not only not reached imo but it went the opposite direction.

BretonMage

Vexen wrote: »

everyone gets the opportunities they need to complete the content they want

Everyone DOES get the opportunity to complete the content they want to, but not everyone chooses to. You don't just walk in and do 120k. Not everyone will parse and practice and min max gears and stats. That's OK. Does that mean though the people who don't do those things should be able to clear the same things.

That's why I said opportunities. No one's suggesting content should be so trivialised that beginners should be able to walk in and do a trial without some effort. Nor do they expect to. But people working towards a goal shouldn't have it continually moved further and further out of their reach, and if power creep does that, then that's when it's not healthy. (Similarly, when nerfs do that, that's bad too). But like I mentioned, I don't think power creep inherently does that, if it's something that could lift everyone up, I think it's fine.

Finedaible

Power creep isn't good or bad, it's how you address it that is. In ESO I can understand why devs would want to reign in power creep to keep older content relevant, but the lengths and methods at which they are pursuing this crusade is borderline insane. The team creates far more problems than they solve with each patch by introducing obviously overpowered sets and mythics, peppered here and there with some really odd or poorly thought out skill changes, and it is all pretty controversial between what they say they want to do and what they actually end up doing. I also don't think it is wise that they trust this spreadsheet of theirs to shoot out magical numbers that 'just work'. They can quantize all the data they want but it will not automatically translate to a great player experience; spreadsheets can be helpful for balancing but they should really only be guidelines in this case.

If they have some grander plan for ESO's combat that has been taking 3 or more years to complete that is a poor management decision, and a plan that long is likely doomed to failure. By the time they make changes for a patch and introduce the next op sets or whatever, the goals will have shifted yet again and they'll have even more problems to solve. Many of those problems they forget to solve, like the rest of the hybridization plan they never delivered. Now they are tackling the core mechanics of combat without addressing existing problems for some reason. We aren't in beta anymore for Mara's sake, there are 'millions' of people subscribed and/or paying for expansions, many of them have been here since the beta. People hate losing what they worked toward and they absolutely hate being strung along like this.

tomfant

IMHO its neither good nor bad. Its just the way ZoS designed the game, be it intended or not.

Having more power every patch makes older content easier and easier. This is nothing else than a way to increase accessability to this content.

On the other side ZoS tunes the difficulty and DPS requirements of new content towards the top end.

thadjarvis

Power creep is Good

I can't say if power creep is good or bad in general for an MMO but for ESO it is good because the designers specifically design the game with it presupposed.

They almost always design the newest content to be more difficult than the current content. They design vet around certain gear and CP (I think blue and no CP).

They have clearly shown that they definitely want older content to become easier over time. See the HoF nerf.

In a nutshell the game designers want a huge progression of content difficulty not by just selectable difficulty level. You can argue against this, but that is outside of ESO's base design framework for at least 5 years.

There's only two ways to get that.
1) Increase player power over time and release new content according to new power level (current policy)
2) Fix player power and each year go through all content and adjust


I think psychologically "me more powerful" feels better to most than "enemies weaker"; it sells better.
Also it is probably much more cost effective to have a power creep policy over re-adjusting a large library of content.

This update seems to be a new policy of fixing content and decreasing player power. The result is all content at all difficulties would become more difficult to clear, which makes the game less "accessible".