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Combat Academy - Raise the Floor
Aashiana
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This doesn't really fit into the patch discussion, but it fits under the stated goal of narrowing the gap between end-game players and new or even mid-level players. It has been exhaustively pointed out that the proposed changes nerf everyone, rather than raising the floor. I'd like to focus on what I've always believed would be a simple and effective way to raise the floor. There are many combat mechanics that are very different from other games (I've been in MMORPS since Asheron's Call and EverQuest). I was in this game for at least 2 years before I ever heard anyone say "light attacks" much less explained what they were and how to use them. We finally organized DPS, Healer, and Tank training in our trade guild, because it was so opaque. Not every player knows to look for unexplained combat approaches outside the game in video, so let's have them IN THE GAME. Here are some initial thoughts... players may differ on what order they would put these in, but the general idea is that by the time you're level 50 - you've been formally introduced to all the important combat concepts. This would do more to raise the floor than any one other thing.
COMBAT ACADEMY
You would go through combat academy with your first character on an account. There would always be an option to skip it (for players transferring servers) or review any of the lessons at any time.
The initial tutorial when you make a character gives you a few basics: attack with a skill, block, bash, heavy attack. OK. That's probably enough to get you through the first few levels and get used to the game. There's also the suggested skills and attributes help you get as you level up. Let's add some more onto this:
Level 5 Some basics that nobody tells you (other than fairly cryptic comments on the loading screens). Why is there an alchemy skill - to use and make potions, that are essential for buffing your combat. Similarly, making food and drink. Putting enchants on your gear, and what are traits? And hey, not coincidentally, this would be right before 6th level where you can start crafting.
Level 10 Discuss the importance of sets - 5-piece sets, monster sets. Walk them through a typical set, and each of the lines - and how the final line is most important. Explain that you can get sets from overland, dungeons, trials, and crafting. Describe what the stickerbook is, and how they can put pieces in and take them out again, and retrait them.
Level 15 Dedicate this tutorial to light attack weaving. It's time - EARLY so people really know how to use it. Explain cool-down, ultimates, and how potions fit into using the bar. Now introduce the backbar. Explain bar-swapping and animation cancelling, and how to use a combat dummy and combat metrics to evaluate your overall DPS, LAs, which skills are doing the most damage or healing, etc. Don't forget about healers and tanks, and include them in each and every lesson.
Level 20 By this time they've got a fair number of skills, so it is time to talk about the difference between direct damage, single target, DOTs, HOTs, buffs and debuffs. Show examples of each and when you would use them. Explain targeting (e.g., ground-casting, "smart" targetting skills, tab-targeting). Explain which skills typically go on which bar and how to organize them.
Level 25 Explain the different levels of difficulty in the game, e.g., overland, delves, WBs/dolmens, normal/vet/HM dungeons, normal/vet/HM trials, and the basic requirements and rewards for each. Give them a sense of the progression that could be ahead so they are motivated to improve their skills and may have a clue what it means when they see "6-key pledges" in zone chat or Craglorn pugs forming.
Level 30 Explain skill line and racial passives and how they interact with the skills to provide important bonuses (and some penalties). Reiterate that these things also interact with the sets you're using and show examples of the combinations. Get players excited about what they could accomplish with these combinations.
Level 35 They're going to be starting to earn some CPs, so before they get too many, have a tutorial just for this.
Level 40 Start talking about group composition. Healers don't just heal, tanks don't just tank, DPS don't just do damage (unlike some other games). Each has a primary role to play and secondary functions. Explain how these skills and sets can work together to synergistically make a group stronger (compared to a random pug), and how groups can coordinate to avoid duplicating buffs and improve overall damage. Mention player guilds and how they can help you learn and practice these skills in organized groups.
Level 45 Discuss how base-game UI and add-ons can help track and report on combat, alert you to important mechanics, etc. Mention the player-base instruction videos that can help improve combat, learn dungeon and trial mechs, etc. This will all give them a sense of the broad player community that supports this game, which they can tap into.
Level 50 Graduation! Let them review any prior tutorials they aren't clear on, them give them a hard boss to defeat (maybe with a choice between individual and group play). Get some nice reward for completing the entire combat academy - just as they graduate from leveling.
COMBAT ACADEMY
You would go through combat academy with your first character on an account. There would always be an option to skip it (for players transferring servers) or review any of the lessons at any time.
The initial tutorial when you make a character gives you a few basics: attack with a skill, block, bash, heavy attack. OK. That's probably enough to get you through the first few levels and get used to the game. There's also the suggested skills and attributes help you get as you level up. Let's add some more onto this:
Level 5 Some basics that nobody tells you (other than fairly cryptic comments on the loading screens). Why is there an alchemy skill - to use and make potions, that are essential for buffing your combat. Similarly, making food and drink. Putting enchants on your gear, and what are traits? And hey, not coincidentally, this would be right before 6th level where you can start crafting.
Level 10 Discuss the importance of sets - 5-piece sets, monster sets. Walk them through a typical set, and each of the lines - and how the final line is most important. Explain that you can get sets from overland, dungeons, trials, and crafting. Describe what the stickerbook is, and how they can put pieces in and take them out again, and retrait them.
Level 15 Dedicate this tutorial to light attack weaving. It's time - EARLY so people really know how to use it. Explain cool-down, ultimates, and how potions fit into using the bar. Now introduce the backbar. Explain bar-swapping and animation cancelling, and how to use a combat dummy and combat metrics to evaluate your overall DPS, LAs, which skills are doing the most damage or healing, etc. Don't forget about healers and tanks, and include them in each and every lesson.
Level 20 By this time they've got a fair number of skills, so it is time to talk about the difference between direct damage, single target, DOTs, HOTs, buffs and debuffs. Show examples of each and when you would use them. Explain targeting (e.g., ground-casting, "smart" targetting skills, tab-targeting). Explain which skills typically go on which bar and how to organize them.
Level 25 Explain the different levels of difficulty in the game, e.g., overland, delves, WBs/dolmens, normal/vet/HM dungeons, normal/vet/HM trials, and the basic requirements and rewards for each. Give them a sense of the progression that could be ahead so they are motivated to improve their skills and may have a clue what it means when they see "6-key pledges" in zone chat or Craglorn pugs forming.
Level 30 Explain skill line and racial passives and how they interact with the skills to provide important bonuses (and some penalties). Reiterate that these things also interact with the sets you're using and show examples of the combinations. Get players excited about what they could accomplish with these combinations.
Level 35 They're going to be starting to earn some CPs, so before they get too many, have a tutorial just for this.
Level 40 Start talking about group composition. Healers don't just heal, tanks don't just tank, DPS don't just do damage (unlike some other games). Each has a primary role to play and secondary functions. Explain how these skills and sets can work together to synergistically make a group stronger (compared to a random pug), and how groups can coordinate to avoid duplicating buffs and improve overall damage. Mention player guilds and how they can help you learn and practice these skills in organized groups.
Level 45 Discuss how base-game UI and add-ons can help track and report on combat, alert you to important mechanics, etc. Mention the player-base instruction videos that can help improve combat, learn dungeon and trial mechs, etc. This will all give them a sense of the broad player community that supports this game, which they can tap into.
Level 50 Graduation! Let them review any prior tutorials they aren't clear on, them give them a hard boss to defeat (maybe with a choice between individual and group play). Get some nice reward for completing the entire combat academy - just as they graduate from leveling.
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PrincessOfThieves✭✭✭✭✭
✭That's one of the easiest ways to raise the floor. I don't know why ZOS doesn't wanna try adding tutorials, people were suggesting it for ages. Well, they kinda tried it with the addition of skill advisor, but it's kinda outdated and not that useful.
It would be really nice if they could add some tutorials. If they don't want to interrupt questers who aren't interested in group content, they could just add it to the Undaunted introduction quest. There is a training quest in Cyrodiil, why can't we have something like that in pve?5 -
Kusto✭✭✭✭✭Lack of tutorial is not the reason why the average player hits only 10k. They just don't care. 10k is enough for the content they're doing, mainly questing, overland, housing, trading and occasionally normal group content. You don't need 100k dps to do any of that. And the ones who really wanna learn and improve their dps will look up guides from YT. Everyone who wants has access to them. I know, the game should also have some basic tutorials but that's entirely different topic and not the reason why the floor is so low.5 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Kusto I bet there is a fair chunk of the player base who if they were given a few pointers from the game would make slightly better choices when making their "builds" which would in effect double their dps.
Just simple things like "damage enchants are really good" and "your max resource affects your damage, so put all your attributes in stam or mag but not both". or "eat food". or "major prophesy / savagery and major brutality / sorcery are really good, you can get them here"
it doesn't even have to fix their rotations, they will do twice as much damage with just some basic fundamentals.2 -
sbr32✭✭✭✭PrincessOfThieves wrote: »That's one of the easiest ways to raise the floor. I don't know why ZOS doesn't wanna try adding tutorials, people were suggesting it for ages. Well, they kinda tried it with the addition of skill advisor, but it's kinda outdated and not that useful.
It would be really nice if they could add some tutorials. If they don't want to interrupt questers who aren't interested in group content, they could just add it to the Undaunted introduction quest. There is a training quest in Cyrodiil, why can't we have something like that in pve?
We know why, Brian Wheeler told us during a Live Stream. if they make a combat tutorial it will be harder to make changes to the combat system without having to remake the tutorial.
I'm not going to try to guess what he meant by that, but as a customer I would see that as a sign that they do not intend to stop these sorts of drastic changes in the combat system anytime soon. YMMV3 -
Grandesdar✭✭✭
As an average DPS player, on console without addons, can confirm.Lack of tutorial is not the reason why the average player hits only 10k. They just don't care. 10k is enough for the content they're doing, mainly questing, overland, housing, trading and occasionally normal group content. You don't need 100k dps to do any of that. And the ones who really wanna learn and improve their dps will look up guides from YT. Everyone who wants has access to them. I know, the game should also have some basic tutorials but that's entirely different topic and not the reason why the floor is so low.
Main: The Charismatic StamDK DD
Side: A Handsome Warden Healer
Side: (upcoming) Stam Necro DD
CP: 680
EU PSN: Style35131 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭(I posted this in another thread about the same topic.)
There are many problems with implementing a “training” quest (or whatever) in eso.
…
Is it mandatory?
Do I have to do it? What if a player does not want to? Can they still do dungeons if they don’t want to do it? If it’s optional, and the majority of players skip it, was it wasted development money?
If it’s not optional, and a player can’t do weaving, then what? Are they then excluded from content? What if they can but don’t like it, did zos just create an angry customer who may have had no internet in dungeons in the first place?
What if they change combat substantially?
Combat changes in the game all the time. Imagine all of the class abilities in U36 stayed the same. AND all the armor etc. what if the big combat change was the elimination of light attacks all together. So weaving is completely gone. Would a training quest be adaptable to this heavy of a change? Would it be even needed?0 -
desndb✭✭✭A friend of mine suggested just adding a toggle to settings...
"Automatic light attacks: on/off"
That would solve the weaving issue. And you could still choose to do it yourself or have the game do it for you. This would also help those with disabilities be able to weave also.
Sounds like a good suggestion to me.0 -
Eldartar✭✭✭✭Lack of tutorial is not the reason why the average player hits only 10k. They just don't care. 10k is enough for the content they're doing, mainly questing, overland, housing, trading and occasionally normal group content. You don't need 100k dps to do any of that. And the ones who really wanna learn and improve their dps will look up guides from YT. Everyone who wants has access to them. I know, the game should also have some basic tutorials but that's entirely different topic and not the reason why the floor is so low.
This.
I really don't care, I get by, I'm not one to chase CP/The Meta/Leader Boards etc etc. I play my way, in my own time and it's the RIGHT WAY for me, it works for me. If YOU want to spend hours practicing your rotation or learning dungeon mechanics, go for it, if that's your thing But, leave me to do my thing in my own way. My Main I have had since Beta, I play him every day, he is at 1,797 CP and that's fine with me because I have never chased levels or CP I just enjoy this game and play at MY speed and in MY OWN way that suits me.2 -
Dulkur✭✭✭Combat text would help tremendously, no way to know what is going on without add-on.
Teaching weaving seems like a good idea the earlier the better, if it was a legitimate mechanic, but it isn't. Weaving and animation cancelling are mechanics many will not find enjoyable, why scare people away from the game early? Anyone that sticks with the game and wants to do high end content will learn.
The game really doesn't have a middle ground, the difference between vet and normal is huge, the difference between the game zones and vet is insane. The game goes from 10k is fine to complete everything to 20k+ is too little. The buffs low level players get feeds into this, you don't really need to do much to succeed. Where is the difficulty progression?1 -
JustAGoodPlayer✭✭✭✭PrincessOfThieves wrote: »That's one of the easiest ways to raise the floor. I don't know why ZOS doesn't wanna try adding tutorials, people were suggesting it for ages. Well, they kinda tried it with the addition of skill advisor, but it's kinda outdated and not that useful.
It would be really nice if they could add some tutorials. If they don't want to interrupt questers who aren't interested in group content, they could just add it to the Undaunted introduction quest. There is a training quest in Cyrodiil, why can't we have something like that in pve?
As example - i download PSO yesterday - there was new patch there - and they added some learning thing - it was long so i just delete the game )
If it will be possible to skip - it is no use.
If no possible - a lot of players will not even play it.
Tutorials give such low level of help = waste of time.
If players needs it to get real combat skill will take him years - so what will it change ?
How is it any different from quests or overland ?Edited by JustAGoodPlayer on July 25, 2022 1:02PM1 -
JustAGoodPlayer✭✭✭✭Aashiana - game not only have LA - it has HA too.
I do not see reason to force players play the way you like.
I as a player am not interested in LA gamplay - as example.1 -
K9002✭✭✭✭✭
This is the first thing in this PTS cycle that made laugh out loud. Because I've never seen any MMO that would change its combat and itemization systems so often that a simple combat tutorial would become obsolete after the next major update. ESO is truly something else, it's a satire on every possible level, from the Elder Scrolls setting to the MMO industry.We know why, Brian Wheeler told us during a Live Stream. if they make a combat tutorial it will be harder to make changes to the combat system without having to remake the tutorial.
I'm not going to try to guess what he meant by that, but as a customer I would see that as a sign that they do not intend to stop these sorts of drastic changes in the combat system anytime soon. YMMV1 -
Aashiana✭✭✭Grandesdar wrote: »
As an average DPS player, on console without addons, can confirm.Lack of tutorial is not the reason why the average player hits only 10k. They just don't care. 10k is enough for the content they're doing, mainly questing, overland, housing, trading and occasionally normal group content. You don't need 100k dps to do any of that. And the ones who really wanna learn and improve their dps will look up guides from YT. Everyone who wants has access to them. I know, the game should also have some basic tutorials but that's entirely different topic and not the reason why the floor is so low.
I disagree with this, or I wouldn't have suggested it. They do care, they just don't have the slightest idea how to go about it. When we started introducing dungeon and trial content in our guilds, we got a lot of anguished questions from players who just for the life of them could not figure out how to get their dps above 10K or 20K. This is why the guild leadership went to the trouble of offering in person and group training, and people were VERY appreciative.
To answer some other questions, in my vision, the tutorial would be 100% voluntary and would not gate any content. It would also always be there in case at a later date players realize they could benefit from the topics covered. I think the suggestions I'm offering are not set- or skill-specific, so if ZOS changes things around it would not change the fundamental point of tutorials like this.0 -
PrincessOfThieves✭✭✭✭✭
✭PrincessOfThieves wrote: »That's one of the easiest ways to raise the floor. I don't know why ZOS doesn't wanna try adding tutorials, people were suggesting it for ages. Well, they kinda tried it with the addition of skill advisor, but it's kinda outdated and not that useful.
It would be really nice if they could add some tutorials. If they don't want to interrupt questers who aren't interested in group content, they could just add it to the Undaunted introduction quest. There is a training quest in Cyrodiil, why can't we have something like that in pve?
We know why, Brian Wheeler told us during a Live Stream. if they make a combat tutorial it will be harder to make changes to the combat system without having to remake the tutorial.
I'm not going to try to guess what he meant by that, but as a customer I would see that as a sign that they do not intend to stop these sorts of drastic changes in the combat system anytime soon. YMMV
That's really disappointing. Designing random changes might be fun, but that's a detriment to the game. If there is something the majority of ESO players can agree upon, it's that change fatigue is real and it's one of the worst things about ESO.
I mean, yeah, changes are normal for mmos... But they should stop making them so drastic all the time. It's unhealthy both for the game and it's population. ESO is 8 years old at this point, it's not in beta anymore.1