Fixing Oakensoul Ring For All Content

HackTheMinotaur

I don't see any feedback thread for Item Set Changes, only New sets, so I created a separate thread.

Text Version, video is below.

Most players believe that Oakensoul is fine for PVE content. Its current stats on Live (Major Buffs) fulfill its intended purpose which is to help raise the floor for new players and those with lower APM or physical disabilities to really compete in veteran level content. That said, those same buffs, specifically Major Heroism, Courage, Berserk and Force are too powerful in PVP (especially BG's) and enable some very oppressive builds that are not fun to fight against.

The current PTS 35 Week 1 solution to change these buffs to minor buffs only works to solve the issue in PVP, but has left PVE players scrambling. Those that have tested including myself have seen substantial decreases in DPS (30-40%) as well as reduced survivability (no Major Protection). This is a great example of PVE/PVP combined balancing, or a one-size-fits-all approach failing. Something more nuanced is needed.

First, Major Protection is not overpowered and should remain on the ring for all types of content. Second, the other Major Buffs can and should be made situational. This can be accomplished by using Battle Spirit as we've already seen with other sets like Rallying Cry:

(5 items) *While Battle Spirit is active*, critically healing yourself or an ally causes you and up to 11 other group members within 12 meters to gain 300 Weapon and Spell Damage, and 1650 Critical Resistance for 20 seconds.

This set shows that item set bonuses can be changed whether the player is in a PVP or PVE context via Battle Spirit. This same approach would fix Oakensoul balance for all types of content.

First, give the set baseline bonuses. These are not overpowered in any particular style of content so they can stay without adjustment.

While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets.
Also gain Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Major Resolve, Major Protection, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance and Minor Mending.

Next, apply MINOR Buffs while Battle Spirit is active. This is the PVP side of the set.

When battle spirit is active, gain minor heroism, minor courage, minor berserk and minor force.

Finally, apply MAJOR buffs only when Battle Spirit is NOT ACTIVE. This is the PVE side.

When battle spirit is *not* active, gain major heroism, major courage, major berserk and major force.

Here is the full tooltip for clarity:

While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets.
Also gain Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Major Resolve, Major Protection, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance and Minor Mending.

When battle spirit is active, gain minor heroism, minor courage, minor berserk and minor force.

When battle spirit is *not* active, gain major heroism, major courage, major berserk and major force.

Finally I will just say that the whole point of Mythic Items should not be about achieving perfect balance across all content. That's not possible. Instead, Mythics should provide powerful, fun, engaging and unique playstyles that players will enjoy. If a Mythic happens to be too powerful in one context (PVP), then adjust it in only that context by using Battle Spirit. Don't water it down. Keep it fun! This also open the door to more PVE and PVP focused Mythics that are strong without having to worry about breaking the other side of the game.

Here's the full video with examples and a lot of great community feedback in the comments: https://youtu.be/4obvOIoy-AY

@ZOS_Kevin since there is no official thread for Set Changes can you please make sure this gets seen by developers? Thanks!

Tannus15

At the risk of being that guy, why not just add "reduce damage done to players by 20%"

taugrim

HackTheMinotaur wrote: »

While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets.
Also gain Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Major Resolve, Major Protection, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance and Minor Mending.

When battle spirit is active, gain minor heroism, minor courage, minor berserk and minor force.

When battle spirit is *not* active, gain major heroism, major courage, major berserk and major force.

I posted a very similar solution back on June 24, albeit without the minor buffs in PVP:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/609192/cleanest-fix-for-broakensoul-have-some-of-the-buffs-only-apply-when-battle-spirit-is-not-present/p1

taugrim wrote: »

(1 item) While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets and gain Major Berserk, Major Courage, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Major Force, Major Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, and Major Heroism.
(1 item) While equipped and Battle Spirit is not active, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets and gain Major Berserk, Major Force, and Major Heroism.


So basically PVE players get everything, but PVP players don't have access to the greatly imbalanced buffs that are impacting PVP.

I don't expect ZoS to adopt the Battle Spirit toggle for buffs for Oakensoul. Or they'd have done it already.

xaraan

I don't think it should be a crutch for players to complete veteran content. I'd just have it to what it does now, but only on normal pve content. That way it can be an item to help players complete all content, without being a pay-2-carry item to artificially carry them through the harder stuff that is MEANT for vet/experienced/skilled players.

Tannus15

xaraan wrote: »

I don't think it should be a crutch for players to complete veteran content. I'd just have it to what it does now, but only on normal pve content. That way it can be an item to help players complete all content, without being a pay-2-carry item to artificially carry them through the harder stuff that is MEANT for vet/experienced/skilled players.

as a vet/experienced/skilled players the more people doing vet content the better. if this is a tool that will let someone get their first vSS clear, i'm all for it.

it's not going to help them with HM or trifectas, so it's not like they get everything for nothing. let them have a shot at clearing vDoM for the first time.

Trae12

Deltia had a video with a much simpler and equally good idea, just add the "increased damage to" and "reduced damage from" trials dungeon and arena mobs. Add those buffs, preferably major versions but at the absolute very least add the minors and the ring is perfectly balanced. I just started playing eso myself so im not sure how the developers take into account player feedback, but this massive oakensol nerf is probably the one thats gonna hurt me the most. This ring is for low cp newish players to help undergeared and possibly like you said disabled or older players be able to be somewhat competetive. Even in its current state it doesnt touch 2 bar numbers, how could it, your literally doubling your abilities.

I agree with nearly everyone Ive read or heard the opinion of, nerfing items across the board simply because they are unbalanced in pvp is a terrible system, its mid 2022. This seems like a 2002 technique.

merpins

Or give it Major Slayer and Major Aegis while also removing Minor Resolve. That would give it the tankiness back that it lost in dungeons and trials, and most of the damage it lost from the other nerfs. Heroism is a special case, they could make it battle spirit dependent, or remove it entirely. It's nice for PVE, but without the nerf, it didn't particularly need that buff to begin with though it helps PVE, especially dungeons and trials.

Urzigurumash

It's not going to give any Aegis or Slayer buff because those are the Trial set exclusive buffs and all PvE players are supposed to be motivated to farm Trials gear, it's part of the PvE progression.

merpins

Urzigurumash wrote: »

It's not going to give any Aegis or Slayer buff because those are the Trial set exclusive buffs and all PvE players are supposed to be motivated to farm Trials gear, it's part of the PvE progression.

The Oakensoul Ring is a placeholder for inexperienced players to be able to do that content. It can't be used in a top-end, end game build because it limits you too much. Even before the nerf, the highest you could expect to do with the ring was 20-30% less DPS than top-end builds... And every build that had that kind of DPS used Perfected Releguen! There is no one in mid or early game that can replicate those builds, and the end game players that use this ring aren't using it to do end game content, but for casual builds that they can run dailies on, or to just have fun playing rather than running the tough, hard to play top end builds. By introducing those buffs to a ring like this with such heavy limitations, it poses no problem to the end game. It only powers up PVE players that were using it back to where they were at, without stepping on the toes of real trial sets.

If a mid game or early game player wants to use this ring, and then they feel that they want to get better at the game, the buffs will motivate them to get better so they can get the good sets that have those buffs, as well as better gear in general so they can eventually move away from this ring and onto more complicated playstyles and sets. As for disabled players, the real demographic for this ring, in general they aren't able to participate in end game content, and those that do need the buffs to help with participation. Adding Aegis or Slayer does not harm end game motivation, since though you might be able to run end game with the ring equipped, it's only meant for end-game for a small percentage of the playerbase, and as a temporary crutch for the rest.

xDeusEJRx

Urzigurumash wrote: »

It's not going to give any Aegis or Slayer buff because those are the Trial set exclusive buffs and all PvE players are supposed to be motivated to farm Trials gear, it's part of the PvE progression.

New ironblood that gives major aegis would like to have a word with you.

Like zos is changing IB to now give major aegis, I think that indicates zos is moving slayer and aegis away from trial exclusivity, so I don't think it'd be out of their realm of possibility to give them to something like this in the near future.

Tannus15

I've been thinking for a while now that we need a mythic or monster set with minor slayer to allow for a greater variety of set combinations.

Yakidafi

Oakensoul now have minor force, berserk, courage. Added minor mending
Major courage is provided by healers mostly.
Major force is provided by healers and tanks mostly.
Only thing missing is major berserk.
Major heroism is added by tanks or healers sometimes.
Why do I see this as a buff for PvE group content where I suppose most players will be struggling at and some see it as a massive nerf?

Oakensoul will still be awesome and choice number one for one bar builds in group and Solo content.

IZZEFlameLash

Yakidafi wrote: »

Oakensoul now have minor force, berserk, courage. Added minor mending
Major courage is provided by healers mostly.
Major force is provided by healers and tanks mostly.
Only thing missing is major berserk.
Major heroism is added by tanks or healers sometimes.
Why do I see this as a buff for PvE group content where I suppose most players will be struggling at and some see it as a massive nerf?

Oakensoul will still be awesome and choice number one for one bar builds in group and Solo content.

Because it is a nerf to solo players that don't get properly built healers and tanks in groups.

In harder contents, you do more DPS with 2 bars than 1 bar build if you are with proper supports in the group. You may say, 'but the minor buffs stack with major buffs', yeah, most of those buffs are already also provided in form of DPS running Kinra for example, giving self Major Berserk while giving another member Minor Berserk. Minor Force is already provided by traps, which are commonly ran in DPS setups due to it giving buff and a strong dot damage or depending on what your tank is running or whether or not you run Tzogvin. There's literally no place for this ring in a proper group because you lose out 6 skill slots (5 + ult) and Minor Heroism itself is not worth losing another set of damage skills. Even on live, you'd only equip this ring if you were 100% sure the group you are running with (mostly in PUGs) don't have any support sets ran by support roles + you don't have meta dps sets. So yes, it is a hefty nerf.

jaws343

30-40% DPS decreases??

This has to be incredibly misleading imo.

You are seeing such drastic decreases due to the overall change in DOT and Light/heavy attack damage with PTS, paired with the very slight nerf on the ring.

The minor versions of the buffs aren't as much of a decrease from the major versions to provide a 30%+ decrease in DPS.

Minor courage is 200 less Weapon/Spell damage.
Minor berserk is 5% less damage done
Minor force is 10% less crit damage

None of that equates to a 30% decrease in DPS.

Heroism is the biggest nerf here, and that is more than justified, given that even in PVE people were chaining ultimates that were not meant to be cast nearly as often.

The minor versions on this are still really strong for what this ring does. Not to mention, adding the minor versions allows players to access the major versions in other ways, which increases power in certain group and build setups. Something that couldn't be done with the major buffs.

Urzigurumash

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

It's not going to give any Aegis or Slayer buff because those are the Trial set exclusive buffs and all PvE players are supposed to be motivated to farm Trials gear, it's part of the PvE progression.

New ironblood that gives major aegis would like to have a word with you.

Like zos is changing IB to now give major aegis, I think that indicates zos is moving slayer and aegis away from trial exclusivity, so I don't think it'd be out of their realm of possibility to give them to something like this in the near future.

Huh, weird, I stand corrected then.

@MovesLikeJaguar Sure that makes sense. I just thought limiting those buffs to Trials sets was a deliberate thing to ensure players who typically only play Dungeons and Arenas were compelled to try Trials, but I guess not.

If it gets Slayers and Aegis, which buffs will it have for PvP again? As it is on PTS and as Hack suggests is fairly well in line with how it "should" work in PvP since Minor Heroism, Berserk, Force, and Protection are all potentially backbarrable buffs (though they require Heroic Slash and Frost Impulse so not exactly realistic / practical) and Minor Courage is more in line with replacing Powerful Assault / Clever Alchemist / etc. than Major Courage (Olorime has a useless Slayer line and Moon Hunter is RNG dependent).

Still it "should" have a Mag Regen debuff or a Cost Increase for PvP, really. Even with the PTS version a number of specs will be more powerful with Oakensoul than without on account of the sustain / GCD savings possibly being stronger than an extra weapon trait / more passives from a backbar.

On the other hand I rather enjoy having my free 100% uptime on Major Force, Berserk, and Courage. Cheesy sure but with the amount of obnoxious Mist Form spam out there I can't say I feel any shame.

divnyi

jaws343 wrote: »

Minor courage is 200 less Weapon/Spell damage.
Minor berserk is 5% less damage done
Minor force is 10% less crit damage

None of that equates to a 30% decrease in DPS.

Except minors were easily obtainable from other sources, while majors aren't.

Treeshka

I think this item item should not work while Battle Spirit is active and the nerf should be reverted. Since many people stated that this item for new players or players who does not want to do lots of multi management while parsing or playing the game. I for some reason think that these sort of players are not engaging much player versus player activities.

jaws343

divnyi wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Minor courage is 200 less Weapon/Spell damage.
Minor berserk is 5% less damage done
Minor force is 10% less crit damage

None of that equates to a 30% decrease in DPS.

Except minors were easily obtainable from other sources, while majors aren't.

Except, not really...

Minor Courage: You can run 1 of 3 Heavy armor sets that have conditions. Or a medium set that forces you to slot a skill and remain in an area, or a monster set that has a cooldown. Or I guess you could be a Werewolf or a Nightblade. So, not reasonably accessible. Especially not with 100% uptime. Not even for 2 bar builds.

Minor Force: Wear a bunch of sets or slot a skill. But, Oakensould gives you limited skill slots and set choices. So, why would you complain on not having to slot a skill for a buff that required you to spend resources to get? Plus, Minor Force stacks with Major, which makes this a buff to group play in groups running warhorn. Which seems to kind of be the whole point of the ring, making players competitive with 1 bar.

Minor Berserk: Be a Nightblade or Warden. Slot Camo Hunter and only ever attack from the flank (which is useless in solo play and again, limited Oakensoul bar space has no need for slottable buffs) Or wear a 2 piece monster set or a healing set. Not really accessible at all. Or, you have to rely on a group member running Kinras.

These 3 changes have little to no impact and were hardly anything any of these builds were getting to begin with.

jaws343

jaws343 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Minor courage is 200 less Weapon/Spell damage.
Minor berserk is 5% less damage done
Minor force is 10% less crit damage

None of that equates to a 30% decrease in DPS.

Except minors were easily obtainable from other sources, while majors aren't.

Except, not really...

Minor Courage: You can run 1 of 3 Heavy armor sets that have conditions. Or a medium set that forces you to slot a skill and remain in an area, or a monster set that has a cooldown. Or I guess you could be a Werewolf or a Nightblade. So, not reasonably accessible. Especially not with 100% uptime. Not even for 2 bar builds.

Minor Force: Wear a bunch of sets or slot a skill. But, Oakensould gives you limited skill slots and set choices. So, why would you complain on not having to slot a skill for a buff that required you to spend resources to get? Plus, Minor Force stacks with Major, which makes this a buff to group play in groups running warhorn. Which seems to kind of be the whole point of the ring, making players competitive with 1 bar.

Minor Berserk: Be a Nightblade or Warden. Slot Camo Hunter and only ever attack from the flank (which is useless in solo play and again, limited Oakensoul bar space has no need for slottable buffs) Or wear a 2 piece monster set or a healing set. Not really accessible at all. Or, you have to rely on a group member running Kinras.

These 3 changes have little to no impact and were hardly anything any of these builds were getting to begin with.

But, to follow up, let's try to build a build that can get all of these Easy buffs on live:

Oakensoul (obviously)

Trap Beast (For Minor Force)
2 piece Slimecraw (Minor Berserk)
Power Extraction (Nightblade, Minor Courage)

So, I have burned 2 set pieces, and 2 of 5 skill slots. Still need a heal, still need an AOE/Dot and spammable. Am forced to only run 1 full 5 piece set. Have to be a nightblade. Still have to spend resources to get Minor Courage and Minor Force.

Trying to build for these 3 minor buffs alone would severely limit what you are capable of doing with the build. Having these 3 minor buffs on the ring, and allowing normal group play to provide the Major Buffs, is far stronger for PVE. And nothing this ring provides is even necessary for solo play.

kind_hero

I am glad that haven't bothered to farm this ring (which I know it's a pain to do).

Seems like there is no direction, it's so confusing to watch combat changes and to keep track of changes to sets, that it demotivates me to play the game in other way than super casual. It kills any desire to get better using a certain build/role, or going after and upgrading a certain set combo. I bet other people feel the same way.

Oshea_OK

I am all in for Hack's suggestion for Oakensoul.

As an average player, this ring really helps me complete Pve content.
I am liking the suggesting to make this ring be different for pve and pvp.

If the main reason is to help average and below, to make pve content easeir, then the ring needs to be designed for this as the # 1 goal. If it is overkill for pvp, then it needs to stay the same but act differently, in pvp, in order to satisfy its original goal.

MacCait

HackTheMinotaur wrote: »

I don't see any feedback thread for Item Set Changes, only New sets, so I created a separate thread.

Text Version, video is below.

Most players believe that Oakensoul is fine for PVE content. Its current stats on Live (Major Buffs) fulfill its intended purpose which is to help raise the floor for new players and those with lower APM or physical disabilities to really compete in veteran level content. That said, those same buffs, specifically Major Heroism, Courage, Berserk and Force are too powerful in PVP (especially BG's) and enable some very oppressive builds that are not fun to fight against.

The current PTS 35 Week 1 solution to change these buffs to minor buffs only works to solve the issue in PVP, but has left PVE players scrambling. Those that have tested including myself have seen substantial decreases in DPS (30-40%) as well as reduced survivability (no Major Protection). This is a great example of PVE/PVP combined balancing, or a one-size-fits-all approach failing. Something more nuanced is needed.

First, Major Protection is not overpowered and should remain on the ring for all types of content. Second, the other Major Buffs can and should be made situational. This can be accomplished by using Battle Spirit as we've already seen with other sets like Rallying Cry:

(5 items) *While Battle Spirit is active*, critically healing yourself or an ally causes you and up to 11 other group members within 12 meters to gain 300 Weapon and Spell Damage, and 1650 Critical Resistance for 20 seconds.

This set shows that item set bonuses can be changed whether the player is in a PVP or PVE context via Battle Spirit. This same approach would fix Oakensoul balance for all types of content.

First, give the set baseline bonuses. These are not overpowered in any particular style of content so they can stay without adjustment.

While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets.
Also gain Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Major Resolve, Major Protection, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance and Minor Mending.

Next, apply MINOR Buffs while Battle Spirit is active. This is the PVP side of the set.

When battle spirit is active, gain minor heroism, minor courage, minor berserk and minor force.

Finally, apply MAJOR buffs only when Battle Spirit is NOT ACTIVE. This is the PVE side.

When battle spirit is *not* active, gain major heroism, major courage, major berserk and major force.

Here is the full tooltip for clarity:

While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets.
Also gain Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Major Resolve, Major Protection, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance and Minor Mending.

When battle spirit is active, gain minor heroism, minor courage, minor berserk and minor force.

When battle spirit is *not* active, gain major heroism, major courage, major berserk and major force.

Finally I will just say that the whole point of Mythic Items should not be about achieving perfect balance across all content. That's not possible. Instead, Mythics should provide powerful, fun, engaging and unique playstyles that players will enjoy. If a Mythic happens to be too powerful in one context (PVP), then adjust it in only that context by using Battle Spirit. Don't water it down. Keep it fun! This also open the door to more PVE and PVP focused Mythics that are strong without having to worry about breaking the other side of the game.

Here's the full video with examples and a lot of great community feedback in the comments: https://youtu.be/4obvOIoy-AY

@ZOS_Kevin since there is no official thread for Set Changes can you please make sure this gets seen by developers? Thanks!

I had made another post on solving the Oakensoul nerf by making it PvE only (without being aware of the changes you suggested)... learnt about your suggested changes in the other post and only now got around to watching your video. Good video. I think your suggestion is best, introduce a clause in the set that involves Battle Spirit deactivating Major versions and enabling minor versions. Simple.

One feedback on the video, it was long with a lot of information... you could make a TL:DR version that just mentions existing precedence in Rallying Cry set for a fix utilising 'when Battle Spirit is present, X effects occur'.

I really hope the Devs listen to your post and watch the video