Wonder if Bare Hands do the same as weapons on the PTS

Auldwulfe

I'm curious, with the new patch on PTS, has anyone done any bare handed combat to see how it works?
And, since they made light and heavy attacks the same damage, does it apply to bare hands?

Just a curiosity --- unfortunately, I cannot get PTS up and working on my system, and if someone could answer this, I would much appreciate it

Auldwulfe

Malkosha

Auldwulfe wrote: »

I'm curious, with the new patch on PTS, has anyone done any bare handed combat to see how it works?
And, since they made light and heavy attacks the same damage, does it apply to bare hands?

Just a curiosity --- unfortunately, I cannot get PTS up and working on my system, and if someone could answer this, I would much appreciate it

Auldwulfe

I just ran this real quick on the PTS. I'm using a Magplar with 5 piece Orders Wrath, 5 piece Hexo's Ward, Ring of the Pale Order and Slimecraw Shoulders. The Hexos' staff is precise with Absorb Magika. Everything is goldened out. I did each attack for 50 hits apiece.

Light Attacks: 4787.4
Heavy Attacks: 3776.6
Fist Attacks: 3497.9

This was done very quickly since your question intrigued me. I can only assume the crit damage was a the main modifier in these number which could be mitigated by a different setup. Perhaps no gear and a normal staff with no bonuses. Think I may try that next.

Malkosha

This time, I wore no gear except a level 1 Maple Lightning Staff. I attacked with 50 hits on each style of play. Let me add the level 1 Staff had a base damage of 168.

Light: 2754.5
Heavy: 2059.2
Fists: 2438.5

Interesting numbers. Surely there is a flaw here that I overlooked.

Drammanoth

Pity that ZOS will never introduce Unarmed Combat... And the Monk class...

Dalsinthus

Wait - heavy attacks are doing 1k less damage per attack than light attacks?

Malkosha

Dalsinthus wrote: »

Wait - heavy attacks are doing 1k less damage per attack than light attacks?

I noticed this as well. I can only assume my methods of testing are off. After all, I never test much of anything until recently when I got on the PTS. I'm using Combat Metrics on it's default settings as installed. Maybe it was because I only did 50 attacks and there wasn't enough time spent to get accurate numbers?

Unless of course, these are correct in which case we have a problem here.

chessalavakia_ESO

I did some brief testing on a minotar and my heavy attacks did more damage than light attacks for both weapons and fists.

MashmalloMan

Drammanoth wrote: »

Pity that ZOS will never introduce Unarmed Combat... And the Monk class...

Still possible. A few years ago when Mythics were announced, I offered an idea that compensated for the loss of your 2 weapon set slots, damage, passives, weapon traits and enchants.

This was before they made a Mythic that locked you to 1 bar, enabling entirely different playstyles.

Off the top of my head, something like this would be cool:

• When unarmed, increase your Weapon/Spell damage by 1335, Offensive Penetration by 3300, and 7.2% Crit .
  • Covers 1x Gold 1h Weapon value, 2x Maces, 2x Precise.
• Gain Minor Mending, Minor Vitality and Minor Berserk increasing your Healing Done, Healing Received and Damage Done by 5%.
  • Covers remaining 4/5 weapon passives.
• Your first light attack will charge your enemy by up to 10m away dealing +____ physcal damage, this has a 6s CD and can reset every 3rd light attack.
  • Covers 2x less set effect slots and enchant from weapons missing as well as the Mythic effect.

Auldwulfe

I appreciate the answers --- and if the tests are reasonably accurate, it almost appears that with the nerfs to Light Attacks, that bare handed damage is now competitive ......

That could lead to some interesting build ideas, even if just for overland fun

Auldwulfe

Talonlord

Malkosha wrote: »

This time, I wore no gear except a level 1 Maple Lightning Staff. I attacked with 50 hits on each style of play. Let me add the level 1 Staff had a base damage of 168.

Light: 2754.5
Heavy: 2059.2
Fists: 2438.5

Interesting numbers. Surely there is a flaw here that I overlooked.

You mention using a lightning staff where the HA damage is divided amongst several smaller hits. Did you calculate around this or just use CMX's average damage info? If it's the latter that would explain the low damage for your heavy attacks.
Another way to make the test easier is to use a frost staff instead since that one has the most basic heavy attack amongst staves.

Rasande_Robin

Drammanoth wrote: »

Pity that ZOS will never introduce Unarmed Combat... And the Monk class...

The reason I quit WoW...

divnyi

@MashmalloMan if we are going for monk-style mythics, why wouldn't it be a "weapon" item that is like none of the weapon types we know, so the downside is you can't use weapon skill lines obviously.

If we worry about bar swapping, can make it take both weapon bars.

Troodon80

Malkosha wrote: »

This time, I wore no gear except a level 1 Maple Lightning Staff. I attacked with 50 hits on each style of play. Let me add the level 1 Staff had a base damage of 168.

Light: 2754.5
Heavy: 2059.2
Fists: 2438.5

Interesting numbers. Surely there is a flaw here that I overlooked.

Did you have any of the Destruction Staff passives?

Troodon80

Decided to look into this as well.

So, at base, yes, unarmed does the same damage as weapons. However, given that weapons also give other bonuses (crit, weapon damage, etc.), it doesn't make unarmed more viable.

Here's a log, each being 40+ seconds (there's only so long I can stand spamming one button). Each test had no gear on aside from the weapons, and the weapons were CP 160, white, no glyphs.

1. Dual wield. Daggers. Nirnhoned and Precise. Has a base of 3256 with 6187 being a crit.
2. Unarmed, with the same numbers from #1; 3256 and 6187. However, crit rating has gone from 33.3% to 26.9%, so less DPS from this one.
3. Precise inferno staff with all destruction staff passives. Base damage is 3480 and 6612 being a crit.
4. Nirnhoned inferno staff with all destruction staff passives. Base damage is 3480 and 6612 being a crit.
5. Nirnhoned inferno staff with no destruction staff passives. Base damage is 3204 and 6087 being a crit.

The numbers are all very similar for base damage. Higher damage tends to come largely from passives; e.g. inferno staff single target passive, ignore 10% of target resistance; daggers extra crit giving higher overall DPS.

JanTanhide

Auldwulfe wrote: »

I'm curious, with the new patch on PTS, has anyone done any bare handed combat to see how it works?
And, since they made light and heavy attacks the same damage, does it apply to bare hands?

Just a curiosity --- unfortunately, I cannot get PTS up and working on my system, and if someone could answer this, I would much appreciate it

Auldwulfe

I was thinking the same thing this morning.

starkerealm

Dalsinthus wrote: »

Wait - heavy attacks are doing 1k less damage per attack than light attacks?

individual hit damage should be higher, but yeah, the DPS is lower. Heavies take over a second to charge, meaning that the larger damage gets split up over multiple seconds and results in lower DPS.

Auldwulfe

Now, I am thinking of doing a bare handed DK with Dragonleap, and a mix of Fighter and Mage Guild skills, supported with Undaunted, and bare hands --- the weapon skill passives are so weapon specific, that it actually isn't going to hurt as much going without them - Splinter will take care of ranged and some AOE spammable, and I have already tested, you can do HA with a bare handed punch, and it seemed to give me back some of each resource, as it is not a weapon (stam), or staff (mag)....

This is now creating an idea for play... at least, on the overland

Auldwulfe

Auldwulfe

I also looked at the idea for my Nightblade -- I already have him in the Honor set light .... this would just reinforce the "ninja" aspect of the character.

Too bad they don't have chain style weapons in game ..... that would be very awesome .... although using the garb, with my dragonknight and the flame whip........ ok, ideas are now percolating.....


Auldwulfe

Necrotech_Master

Troodon80 wrote: »

Decided to look into this as well.

So, at base, yes, unarmed does the same damage as weapons. However, given that weapons also give other bonuses (crit, weapon damage, etc.), it doesn't make unarmed more viable.

Here's a log, each being 40+ seconds (there's only so long I can stand spamming one button). Each test had no gear on aside from the weapons, and the weapons were CP 160, white, no glyphs.

1. Dual wield. Daggers. Nirnhoned and Precise. Has a base of 3256 with 6187 being a crit.
2. Unarmed, with the same numbers from #1; 3256 and 6187. However, crit rating has gone from 33.3% to 26.9%, so less DPS from this one.
3. Precise inferno staff with all destruction staff passives. Base damage is 3480 and 6612 being a crit.
4. Nirnhoned inferno staff with all destruction staff passives. Base damage is 3480 and 6612 being a crit.
5. Nirnhoned inferno staff with no destruction staff passives. Base damage is 3204 and 6087 being a crit.

The numbers are all very similar for base damage. Higher damage tends to come largely from passives; e.g. inferno staff single target passive, ignore 10% of target resistance; daggers extra crit giving higher overall DPS.

my experience is that the passives that say "ignore 10% of target resist" ACTUALLY meant "increase your penetration by 10%"

i noticed this with maces back before they were given flat +pen values because they effectively added no penetration before (10% increase of low penetration is not much)

why it states it like that is completely misleading compared to what it actually does

MashmalloMan

divnyi wrote: »

@MashmalloMan if we are going for monk-style mythics, why wouldn't it be a "weapon" item that is like none of the weapon types we know, so the downside is you can't use weapon skill lines obviously.

If we worry about bar swapping, can make it take both weapon bars.

Thought of that, best candiate is the off hand slot, but I'm mostly working within the barriers I think ZOS creates for themselves. While it sounds simple on paper, the question then becomes:

• What does the style of the weapon look like?
• Is it actually a shield, just happens to be really small?
• How do you lock it to only your off hand or does it matter which slot?
• Why does it only fill 1 gear slot instead of 2 like you would expect from bracelets/gauntlets?
• Have they even coded the ability for weapon based mythics?
• The condition changes from "you must be unarmed" to "you must have an empty main hand" which contradicts the idea behind the purpose of the mythic.

Basically, it's simpler to make it a jewelry piece to avoid those problems and force the effects to only be active when you have no weapons equipped. Then, the mythic accounts for having -2 item slots in the overall power budget like how Oakensoul accounts for -6 skill slots from backbar.

But hey, thats just the logic I'm using to make it as simple as possible to increase the possibility of it getting made. It would make more sense objectively, to be 2 items you wear on both weapon slots like gauntlets, just not for ESO, or really ZOS..