Developer Public Relations

Jordan.nick11b14_ESO

I've never seen a more divisive environment in this game since I joined the community in 2013. From BETA to today I think it's important developers ask themselves why they're doing the job they have. Is it because of money? You can make money doing a lot of things. This game requires passionate people who love the game 'and' the consumer base. I feel over the years that's been lost. They push through updates THEY want to see regardless how the community feels. In a way, many ultimately feel like developers serving themselves--not those paying to be here. And, the passive-aggressive tones coming from the company to the players. Wow. That's just sad; talk about a step backwards. If players are unhappy and complaining, why miss the opportunity to engage with the community to learn why? I just don't get it.

Something has to give. [snip]

[Edited for Bashing]

EdmondDontes

Jordan.nick11b14_ESO wrote: »

I've never seen a more divisive environment in this game since I joined the community in 2013. From BETA to today I think it's important developers ask themselves why they're doing the job they have. Is it because of money? You can make money doing a lot of things. This game requires passionate people who love the game 'and' the consumer base. I feel over the years that's been lost. They push through updates THEY want to see regardless how the community feels. In a way, many ultimately feel like developers serving themselves--not those paying to be here. And, the passive-aggressive tones coming from the company to the players. Wow. That's just sad; talk about a step backwards. If players are unhappy and complaining, why miss the opportunity to engage with the community to learn why? I just don't get it.

Something has to give. [snip]

[Edited for Bashing]

I would also add that the communication should take place on this forum. Not on social media where no sane person would ever spend their time.

Mr_Stach

When this Post gets taken down, I want you to know I was here. Watching it happen.

JustAGoodPlayer

I think not communication but combat team is a problem.

What do communication team do ? Talk to people, answer some peoples questions and other marketing ?

But we have problem with balance, how will it help ?

Faded

The communications people are visibly competent, and presumably doing their jobs as directed. The problem you're hoping to solve is higher up and not noticeably interested in player satisfaction with their policies.

Rohamad_Ali

It's easy to see the lines of applicants circling around ZoS, just for a chance to be the messenger that gets shot daily. Truly a honorable position sought by millions.

JustAGoodPlayer

For now if PTS go live all we as a players can really do is to show, that we are dissapointed. And wright as more as we can do it be clearly seen.

But may be thingth will not be really bad. But I always prepare if thingth become really bad.

Because last 3 years combat changes was not really good. It was bad each time.

Freelancer_ESO

Last I knew, Game Development was relatively poor pay and poor hours relative to the skill set most of the individuals possessed.

My impression is that most are in it for the passion of making games.

The problem is, that as the scale of games grows, the audience becomes less and less likely to share the developer's passions which in turn produces conflict.

You also ram into the issue that forums design and social media design have a tendency to draw in people that have problems with the game and people that aren't terribly representative of the overall population which messes up the quality of feedback. Even if the developers are actually trying to get feedback from the community beyond their personal bubble it's quite hard to do.

I wonder how much different the discourse in gaming would be if reddit didn't have the downvote.

In the long run, game development should probably shift towards primarily professional staff.

But, companies haven't really made the shift because professional staff would expect more pay and better conditions, because passion sells well, lets you use the staff in marketing, and because training the new professional staff would take time.

YandereGirlfriend

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Last I knew, Game Development was relatively poor pay and poor hours relative to the skill set most of the individuals possessed.

My impression is that most are in it for the passion of making games.

The problem is, that as the scale of games grows, the audience becomes less and less likely to share the developer's passions which in turn produces conflict.

You also ram into the issue that forums design and social media design have a tendency to draw in people that have problems with the game and people that aren't terribly representative of the overall population which messes up the quality of feedback. Even if the developers are actually trying to get feedback from the community beyond their personal bubble it's quite hard to do.

I wonder how much different the discourse in gaming would be if reddit didn't have the downvote.

In the long run, game development should probably shift towards primarily professional staff.

But, companies haven't really made the shift because professional staff would expect more pay and better conditions, because passion sells well, lets you use the staff in marketing, and because training the new professional staff would take time.

The thing is... what percentage of the devs do you think play ESO as their primary game? And for those that do... do you imagine that they're doing anything other than the sort of casual questing and normal mode instanced game play that seems to be their vision for the game these days?

It might just be me but I would feel a lot more confidence in the direction of the game if we had devs that were publicly out there running Swashbuckler Supreme progs or playing in high-end ball groups in Cyro or dunking on the top PvP streamers in BGs or pushing for all of the dungeon trifecta achievements, etc.

To me, that would signal that they have a complete understanding of all of the most difficult end-game content in the game because they would be actually engaging in all of that content. Especially for PvP, I increasingly get the feeling that they just sort of browse the forum and respond to the loudest nerf threads against individual builds or classes. Most of the PvP changes demonstrate a lack of insight into the actual meta of group play in Cyrodiil, BGs, etc. Any seasoned PvP player can see this - has been able to see it for a long while.

So I would disagree with your sentiment that the game isn't already run by a largely professional staff. And I, for one, would not mind seeing a bit more public passion for the types of high-level end-game content that feels increasingly under-resourced (read: PvP) or under attack these days (high-end group PvE and raiding). To the OP's original point, that would be the best public relations campaign of them all.

Faulgor

I just miss the bi-weekly ESO live with a member of the dev team as a guest.
Even if they couldn't always talk about something new or what they were working on rn, it still brought the studio and the community closer together. These days you'd be forgiven for getting the impression that the dev team actively avoids their players.

JustAGoodPlayer

We as a players can try to make some solutions, that not part of players but all or at least the most part will like and try to ask to do it that way and do not change it?

It can help with such situations in future.

What do you think ?

shadyjane62

When I read that infamous tweet, I knew it was over. The blurb posted on the forums was not much better. Been there done that with the AWA.

EdmondDontes

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Last I knew, Game Development was relatively poor pay and poor hours relative to the skill set most of the individuals possessed.

My impression is that most are in it for the passion of making games.

The problem is, that as the scale of games grows, the audience becomes less and less likely to share the developer's passions which in turn produces conflict.

You also ram into the issue that forums design and social media design have a tendency to draw in people that have problems with the game and people that aren't terribly representative of the overall population which messes up the quality of feedback. Even if the developers are actually trying to get feedback from the community beyond their personal bubble it's quite hard to do.

I wonder how much different the discourse in gaming would be if reddit didn't have the downvote.

In the long run, game development should probably shift towards primarily professional staff.

But, companies haven't really made the shift because professional staff would expect more pay and better conditions, because passion sells well, lets you use the staff in marketing, and because training the new professional staff would take time.

I think about 3-4 years into ESO's life ZOS replaced the devs that created the game and were passionate about the game and replaced them with (fill in the blank). I think it was an economic decision by ZOS. The truly talented and passionate often expect to get paid in proportion to their abilities and dedication.

Everything since about year 4 has been reskinned and reworked versions of what we already had for the most part is why I think this. That, and this was when PvP became a back burner concern in essentially every way when PvP was the main selling point for end game activity when the game was released.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

Faulgor wrote: »

I just miss the bi-weekly ESO live with a member of the dev team as a guest.
Even if they couldn't always talk about something new or what they were working on rn, it still brought the studio and the community closer together. These days you'd be forgiven for getting the impression that the dev team actively avoids their players.

I miss those too!
And I'll say it. I miss Paul Sage and Nick Konkle.
How Rich can ask us to trust them after AWA is beyond me.

Wolfpaw

Jordan.nick11b14_ESO wrote: »

I've never seen a more divisive environment in this game since I joined the community in 2013. From BETA to today I think it's important developers ask themselves why they're doing the job they have. Is it because of money? You can make money doing a lot of things. This game requires passionate people who love the game 'and' the consumer base. I feel over the years that's been lost. They push through updates THEY want to see regardless how the community feels. In a way, many ultimately feel like developers serving themselves--not those paying to be here. And, the passive-aggressive tones coming from the company to the players. Wow. That's just sad; talk about a step backwards. If players are unhappy and complaining, why miss the opportunity to engage with the community to learn why? I just don't get it.

Something has to give. So, I hope to see a new face on the communication team--one with empathy and understanding to bridge the growing divide between the dev team and the player base.

The impression they're burned-out, and not much love for the community comes across for sure.

FluffWit

Gina really has two jobs from what I can see- writing the patch notes and hosting the developer streams. She does fine at both of them.

[snip]

In terms of combat.... idk

[Edited for Bashing]

Freelancer_ESO

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Last I knew, Game Development was relatively poor pay and poor hours relative to the skill set most of the individuals possessed.

My impression is that most are in it for the passion of making games.

The problem is, that as the scale of games grows, the audience becomes less and less likely to share the developer's passions which in turn produces conflict.

You also ram into the issue that forums design and social media design have a tendency to draw in people that have problems with the game and people that aren't terribly representative of the overall population which messes up the quality of feedback. Even if the developers are actually trying to get feedback from the community beyond their personal bubble it's quite hard to do.

I wonder how much different the discourse in gaming would be if reddit didn't have the downvote.

In the long run, game development should probably shift towards primarily professional staff.

But, companies haven't really made the shift because professional staff would expect more pay and better conditions, because passion sells well, lets you use the staff in marketing, and because training the new professional staff would take time.

The thing is... what percentage of the devs do you think play ESO as their primary game? And for those that do... do you imagine that they're doing anything other than the sort of casual questing and normal mode instanced game play that seems to be their vision for the game these days?

It might just be me but I would feel a lot more confidence in the direction of the game if we had devs that were publicly out there running Swashbuckler Supreme progs or playing in high-end ball groups in Cyro or dunking on the top PvP streamers in BGs or pushing for all of the dungeon trifecta achievements, etc.

To me, that would signal that they have a complete understanding of all of the most difficult end-game content in the game because they would be actually engaging in all of that content. Especially for PvP, I increasingly get the feeling that they just sort of browse the forum and respond to the loudest nerf threads against individual builds or classes. Most of the PvP changes demonstrate a lack of insight into the actual meta of group play in Cyrodiil, BGs, etc. Any seasoned PvP player can see this - has been able to see it for a long while.

So I would disagree with your sentiment that the game isn't already run by a largely professional staff. And I, for one, would not mind seeing a bit more public passion for the types of high-level end-game content that feels increasingly under-resourced (read: PvP) or under attack these days (high-end group PvE and raiding). To the OP's original point, that would be the best public relations campaign of them all.

Isn't one of the influential people on the Combat Team literally a former content creator for ESO that made guides for builds for various content items?

I'd argue the difficulty for much of the content is as easy as it is because the design shift occurred later for economic reasons and was done by people that aren't that casual and as a result have a challenging time picking the right difficulty.

It might be good marketing for people that like that sort of content but, for people that aren't as interested it looks like it's just catering to the top few %.

Matteo11

Aside from an ovezealous mod or two, I think the PR team, and specifically Gina do a good job.

The development and creative team, on the other hand, have some deep and fundamental issues with designing and cultivating a healthy game. This is where it looks like they need some new blood.

It would be great if the development team showed more of a passion and understanding for the project. The more you watch their live streams and read their comments, you can see that they really lack a deep understanding of what really makes ESO tick, and are making decisions that seem alien and off af to the actual players.

Financial mandates could be to blame for some things (like lack of Chapter features) but when it comes to the design and balancing, and when it comes to wrong statements being spoken with absolutely confidence, this is an issue of perspective and knowledge on the team.

Finedaible

I'm currently inclined to think that the current directors have lost all passion they once had for the game and really wish to move on to something else. I mean, the appointed Loremaster in 2019 (Leamon Tuttle who helped write some awesome lore) left the position for some other project merely 2 years after taking on the role, and several other talented, core employees had left even earlier than that (like the guy who wanted to implement spell crafting). There are still fantastic employees remaining at ZoS who do an amazing job at what they work on like Mike Finnigan and the asset teams, but they can only do so much in their own areas of expertise. I would not be surprised if the good employees have started seeking better opportunities under that kind of work environment. As for the theory that the studio may be struggling financially, I find that incredibly hard to believe when it already benefits from a highly-incentivized subscription, chapter expansions, 'micro'-transactions, and a predatory gambling system. Perhaps they have just spread themselves too thin, and now that exhaustion has set in there's not enough trained people to pass the torch on to.

Elder Scrolls has been (was?) a cherished memory since childhood, but recently I cannot even recall those memories without thinking about how toxic the development of this franchise has become. It feels immensely player-hostile. I really do hope my feelings turn out to be wrong, but I'm starting to wonder if it's even worth hoping anymore.

DarcyMardin

I don’t know who is responsible for the widening gap between the players’ expectations and the plans of the ZOS teams working on various aspects of the game, but I agree that things have gone downhill faster and faster with the past few updates. Not only have the changes been much too sweeping and discombobulating, but the communication about the reasons and need for these changes has also been very off-putting.

I really hope ZOS can do something to smooth things over, because it’s a mess.

BalticBlues

It think the PUBLIC RELATIONS of ESO as a game is EXCELLENT.
However, the COMBAT DEVELOPERS somehow have LOST CONNECTION to the player base.

DarcyMardin wrote: »

things have gone downhill faster and faster with the past few updates.
[...]the changes been much too sweeping and discombobulating

THIS. The game was in a good state about three years ago.
Since then it is has been going downhill with DRASTIC changes.
Players now have to RELEARN THE GAME every 3 months.

It feels as if the GAME IS BACK TO BETA, so unstable the combat core has become.
The next patch not only changes the COMBAT CORE of the game once gain.
It also NERFS DAMAGE so much that people LOSE YEARS OF PROGRESSION.

The sweeping changes have gotten so bad that PLAYERS DREAD THE PATCHES.
Even the most ambitious players do advise against releasing UPDATE 35 in this form:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArpuZKqDekc

merpins

I'm pretty sure the Devs love the game, or at least love doing what they're doing. I'm an animator, and I love doing what I do. It's a job, first and foremost, but if it wasn't my job it'd be something I do for fun. If anyone is pushing the development team to do weird things in search for profit, it would be higher ups like CEOs and share holders. That's normal at any and every gaming company.

Jaraal

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

I think not communication but combat team is a problem.

What do communication team do ? Talk to people, answer some peoples questions and other marketing ?

But we have problem with balance, how will it help ?

Because the combat team is tired of our “crying”, “whining, “and “vitriol.”

The community managers are more diplomatic, other than some mildly snarky comments in announcements and patch notes.

BahometZ

Expectations is the key word isn't it.

The devs have said it themselves that they are constrained by performance issues. The hardware and code is relatively ancient, so all devs have to be amazingly innovative in making content that is engaging and also works in combination with art design, class balance, combat mechanics, lore and other myriad elements all within the restrictions of possibility.

This means that we get recycled mechanics, story lines and zones limited to what actually exists in the TES universe somewhere around the same time as the game takes place. Combat that has to cater to a monumental variety of play styles and abilities.

How do you tune a class to be useful for damage, healing, tanking, vet hm content, pvp, overland questing, etc. If you scale for the top, then the easy stuff is a joke and you get calls for veteran overland content which is obviously not possible given the game structure. Scale for the bottom and hard content is out of reach for 98% of customers. And what is the middle at any given time? Not everyone in the game is going to be able to perform well even with tutorials.

So players expect their every whim to be catered to in this chaotic spaghetti code of a beast, that the devs are constantly wrangling with, and when it isn't their disappointment flows to the PR people who are limited in what they can say or do about it.

I will concede that the yoyo changes are beyond frustrating and the current dev team approach seems grossly out of step with the community, but I commiserate with them trying to find an answer. And I think besides a couple of missteps the PR team is phenomenal, Gina, Kevin and the mods do great work.

Caribou77

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Last I knew, Game Development was relatively poor pay and poor hours relative to the skill set most of the individuals possessed.

...So I would disagree with your sentiment that the game isn't already run by a largely professional staff. And I, for one, would not mind seeing a bit more public passion for the types of high-level end-game content that feels increasingly under-resourced (read: PvP) or under attack these days (high-end group PvE and raiding). To the OP's original point, that would be the best public relations campaign of them all.

I agree -- I would really like to see a developer (or 3) that's competitive in Cyrodiil or Battlegrounds. Long-standing server performance issues aside, many of the unpopular/poor changes seem to be the result of over-correcting perceived problems. Updates to combat (improving & nerfing various skills) are typically "done with a jackhammer" as many have noted. Finer adjustments could compliment gameplay without disrupting it.

For example, the U35 changes to stamsorc are 41.5% damage reduction for crystal weapon (main spammable for the class) and a 38% damage reduction to bound armaments. Now, I don't play a stamsorc, and I agree they've been pretty overpowered (especially those jerks using knock-off versions of Deltias bowsorc build with Savage Werewolf), but "adjustments" on this scale are absurd and to me appear to indicate ZOS game devs are out of touch with how PVP actually works. I've got to imagine that hundreds of happy stamsorcs have already abandoned their tunes and gone back to their overpowered DK build.

So yeah, how about some good public relations and communication and goodwill-building: ZOS Developers come play the game with us. Honestly, I think it would be very good for the game.

neferpitou73

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Last I knew, Game Development was relatively poor pay and poor hours relative to the skill set most of the individuals possessed.

My impression is that most are in it for the passion of making games.

The problem is, that as the scale of games grows, the audience becomes less and less likely to share the developer's passions which in turn produces conflict.

You also ram into the issue that forums design and social media design have a tendency to draw in people that have problems with the game and people that aren't terribly representative of the overall population which messes up the quality of feedback. Even if the developers are actually trying to get feedback from the community beyond their personal bubble it's quite hard to do.

I wonder how much different the discourse in gaming would be if reddit didn't have the downvote.

In the long run, game development should probably shift towards primarily professional staff.

But, companies haven't really made the shift because professional staff would expect more pay and better conditions, because passion sells well, lets you use the staff in marketing, and because training the new professional staff would take time.

The thing is... what percentage of the devs do you think play ESO as their primary game? And for those that do... do you imagine that they're doing anything other than the sort of casual questing and normal mode instanced game play that seems to be their vision for the game these days?

It might just be me but I would feel a lot more confidence in the direction of the game if we had devs that were publicly out there running Swashbuckler Supreme progs or playing in high-end ball groups in Cyro or dunking on the top PvP streamers in BGs or pushing for all of the dungeon trifecta achievements, etc.

To me, that would signal that they have a complete understanding of all of the most difficult end-game content in the game because they would be actually engaging in all of that content. Especially for PvP, I increasingly get the feeling that they just sort of browse the forum and respond to the loudest nerf threads against individual builds or classes. Most of the PvP changes demonstrate a lack of insight into the actual meta of group play in Cyrodiil, BGs, etc. Any seasoned PvP player can see this - has been able to see it for a long while.

So I would disagree with your sentiment that the game isn't already run by a largely professional staff. And I, for one, would not mind seeing a bit more public passion for the types of high-level end-game content that feels increasingly under-resourced (read: PvP) or under attack these days (high-end group PvE and raiding). To the OP's original point, that would be the best public relations campaign of them all.

100% This.

They told us they'd do special PvP events. Let's get a Dev stream in Cyrodiil, and let them watch how all their changes the past year have played out.

joerginger

shadyjane62 wrote: »

I don't think they actually ever play this game.

I only know of two familiar faces who actually play the game at least on occasion, and those two are the creative diorector and the German community manager.
As for the other employees, I also doubt that any of them really plays the game much, if ever. After all ESO already is their job, so why should they burden themselves with dealing with the game in their free time, too? That would be extrremely surprising. Usually most people don't want to be reminded of work in their free time.

Arrodisia

EdmondDontes wrote: »

I would also add that the communication should take place on this forum. Not on social media where no sane person would ever spend their time.

I would like to see this as well. Official comments from employees in the official forums during work hours when they're not too busy makes total sense.

Amottica

Well, for one all of us do our jobs for money. That is undeniably the main driving force almost all of us have for getting up and going to work. So to suggest if they do their job for money that they could make money doing a lot of things is not a very compelling reason why anyone should change jobs.

Further, we know that at least some of the devs enjoy their job and gaming. Rich clearly plays ESO and has for a while. From what I understand, Gilliam was one of the top players in ESO and proved to be one of the brightest players. He provided himself extremely knowledgeable about game mechanics with an ability to troubleshoot issues in the game.

So we know for a fact that there are developers are very much into gaming, including with ESO.

washbern

No one in their right mind would ever go to the forums and try to talk to the masses. As much as I dislike this patch thus far, I think that their communication about it is reasonably acceptable for now.
They told us why they think the changes are good them when we were not happy they told us when to expect updates.
To come on the forums and try to make peace is a rather suicidal maneuver. Everyone will never be happy and to open one self to public outrage is not something that anyone wants.
I am sitting with my fingers crossed that they indeed look at the ample feedback and test results we provided, got their heads out of the sand and understood how bad the proposed changes were. Next Monday we will find out.

LikiLoki

At the moment, there is no feedback from the developer in this area. Players here write interesting things, complain about other things, offer and communicate. Do the gods pay attention to the bustle of ants? Only in one thing, when ants step on someone else's paws and start biting.
Do you want to see a new face? An angel descended from heaven? This will not give results, he does not understand the ant language and is too arrogant. We need an ant from the players who ascended to the sky. Only in this case the voices will be heard