People are overreacting to the update

sneakymitchell

Players just uses the dummy to see their dps potential.

But how about doing a vet duegeon or a vet trail. People always speculate but never do the full results in a real scenario.

Four_Fingers

It may be also useful to read other post where people are testing comparing dungeons on live vs PTS.
They do exist.

Stx

Lol.

People have done actual content.

What's ironic about your post is, the test dummy is where these new 20 second dots will have their absolute maximum effectiveness, and still dps is way down across the board. If a target moves, or dies early, these new 20 second dots are extremely inefficient, and a waste of a global to cast. Basically, these changes make DOTs useless for 90% of the game, because literally only select bosses will stand still for 20 seconds, and also not die for twenty seconds.

Also, homogenizing all dots makes the game boring, and reduces class identity.

I don't think anyone is overreacting to these changes. These changes are a very bad idea.

Iselin

From everything I've read, players who don't understand the changes and haven't been on the PTS to try it out for themselves, think that players who fully understand the implications and are currently testing things on the PTS are overreacting.

Aldoss

Not over reacting. The changes are actually that bad.

ZOS is looking at the largest exodus of vet players they've ever had in one update if they don't walk these changes back and put any amount of character and joy back into their game.

Maybe it hasn't been stated enough: vet players love the skill ceiling of this game. It's quite literally what makes this game so fun. If you remove the skill ceiling, especially in the way the patch is proposing by homogenizing all classes, skills, and rotations, that joy of the challenge goes away.

How much time have you spent on the pts this week? What factors make you think these changes are a step in the right direction? Genuine question.

Elsonso

There are a lot of changes this time. I think people just got used to the relatively small but annoying changes that come every three months, and this is like a whole year crammed into one update. It is a lot to absorb.

Four_Fingers

Biggest problem is devs acknowledge changes will need to be made in future updates to balance out.
So we play broken till then?
Don't make changes till everything is done.

Pevey

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Players just uses the dummy to see their dps potential.

But how about doing a vet duegeon or a vet trail. People always speculate but never do the full results in a real scenario.

People on PTS are doing (attempting) vet trials and giving feedback.

https://www.esologs.com/reports/aBVHDWmR7cyFAKbn

What vet dungeons and trials are you doing? Do you at least read the patch notes and decide for yourself?

Pevey

There is only one ESO content creator who has looked at these changes and is for some reason telling his cult followers that they are somehow going to be okay for them. That is just not true.

Look for second opinions. Or look at the changes and how they would actually affect you and decide for yourself.

Just because he hates the "toxic elite," and just because that group he hates dislike these changes, that does not mean these changes are good. He just wants to be anti whatever they believe. That is petty stuff, and I stay out of either side. Bottom line is he is basing his support on bias and emotion.

Decide for yourself.

PrincessOfThieves

Even if they were overreacting, it means that people are unhappy with these changes and many might leave because of them. That is a a reason enough to be unhappy. Video games are supposed to be fun, right? And being pushed back all the time isn't fun, unless you're a masochist (inb4 someone comments "I'm a masochist and I don't like this patch).

Galiferno

If you've done certain content in this game, such as vKA HM or vRG HM, you can surmise just from reading the patch notes that doing that content is going to be much, much more difficult for the average group across all roles. Just because clearing vet base game dungeons will still be easy does not mean that all content will still be doable. Good luck to above average groups like mine doing Xalvakka HM.

Lykeion

Referring to parsing is pointless, ZOS has been applying buffs to dummies to cover up their nerf to dps. However u35 nerfs are so severe that even this tactic can't cover it up. Also, if the nerf only involved DPS I might be able to accept such a change, but the nerfs to healers is unconscionable. The HOT has been nerfed to roughly a third and the healing interval has been lengthened. Some trials are simply not possible to pass after this nerf. KAHM BOSS attacks the dps with 15k damage per second and the healer fights it hopelessly with every two seconds HOTs, and now you're saying I'm overreacting.

Riptide

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Players just uses the dummy to see their dps potential.

But how about doing a vet duegeon or a vet trail. People always speculate but never do the full results in a real scenario.

I could understand making this thread, going to the trouble to type it out and hit post - if you had went to PTS and had success in both vet dungeons and trials. I can’t imagine genuinely considering it constructive to do so if I hadn’t - knowing the back and forth it would create. I mean it is draining, you know?

But hey, people are different.

Necrotech_Master

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Players just uses the dummy to see their dps potential.

But how about doing a vet duegeon or a vet trail. People always speculate but never do the full results in a real scenario.

i can 100% guarantee to you that your dps will never be as high as you see it on a dummy except in certain ideal trial scenarios

starkerealm

Pevey wrote: »

There is only one ESO content creator who has looked at these changes and is for some reason telling his cult followers that they are somehow going to be okay for them. That is just not true.

Yeah, I know who you're talking about, and it's hard to watch. Especially given this applies a tactical nuke to his most popular build.

I'm actually worried for his livelihood. He's not seeing how it applies at the low end of the DPS spectrum, and is interpreting a lot of these conversations as the usual, "oh, no, my class has a 3% nerf, it's the end of days," tantrums. He's focusing on how you don't need a lot of damage to clear most content, which is true, then getting overly fixated on the ceilings being significantly above that, without regard to how it affects players at lower levels.

Like, if Hack can still break 100k, that's great, but, Hack is an amazing DPS. It's not going to help someone who's been struggling, and practicing, and just broke 30k or 40k before the patch landed.

renne

Stx wrote: »

What's ironic about your post is, the test dummy is where these new 20 second dots will have their absolute maximum effectiveness, and still dps is way down across the board.

What's even more ironic is the dummy has been buffed on the pts vs live and dps is STILL down.

Reverb

I’ve run several dlc dungeons on PTS as a healer. People aren’t overreacting about the changes to healing being terrible in group content.

The unintended consequence of this is that everyone will be more reliant on self heals, which will reduce dps by even more than they are projecting based on parses. DPS will need to give up a bar slot or two, and figure out how to work their own heals into their rotation and sustain.

Again, this is based on testing, not on patch notes. You aren’t qualified to judge the validity of anyone else’s feedback on the changes.

starkerealm

Reverb wrote: »

Again, this is based on testing, not on patch notes. You aren’t qualified to judge the validity of anyone else’s feedback on the changes.

I judge this feedback credible.

Though, legitimately, I do agree, if anyone reading this hasn't experienced the PTS, get on it, check out what's going on. You really need to feel this is in live content.

Skjaldbjorn

They really aren't.

Priyasekarssk

Actually, people are underreacting to updates. Who cares about an MMO that is not even in the top 10 and not even in the top 50 played games. Barely 1000 viewers on twitch and below 10000 active players on steam. Even 20-year-old GTA games beat ESO's number of active players on steam. Bethesda's next MMO will be a big failure than fallout 74. The Dev team is filled with entirely incompetent idiots. I think core competent people either moved to other projects or mostly moved out of the company itself. Entire money goes for voice acting instead of game development and bug fixes. Full of incompetent workplace politicians who barely know how to make a game and what is essential and leaching shareholders money as cancer.
Zos or Bethesda don’t care about people leaving or complaining. You are just hitting your own head and wasting time.
Combat lead is Nightblade cheese lover. The next patch will be full of hide and seek in cyrodil. Completely going to destroy the remaining player population. ESO is already a long-dead game. Learn to Move on. No point in beating a dead ☠️

James-Wayne

I have been doing actual content and I'm half the DPS I use to be so yeah.

wolfsilver00

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Players just uses the dummy to see their dps potential.

But how about doing a vet duegeon or a vet trail. People always speculate but never do the full results in a real scenario.

What game have you been playing man? Dummys are always more damage than real runs.. If you get bad damage on dummy, you will always get worst damage on the trial.. And think about it for a second,if now get 2 seconds dots, tahts double the time for the mob to get out of it.. Seriously dude, use your brain, you have it for a reason

BalticBlues

Overreacting? Real PTS gameplay:
"Damage is going down, I mean WAY DOWN"

"Dots are so weak [...] you need to stack 5 or 6 dots to make any type of impact."
"VMA, Vateshran: If you place a ground base dot [...] it's really not worth it anymore."
"PvP: Dot builds will go away for the most part."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwAimsO1gVE

Tannus15

it's pretty easy to spot people who are in a prog team for end game content and who are not.

we've been working on bahsei hm this year. we're getting to execute now, we're learning the last part of the fight. this update will significantly set us back.
i don't care at all about my lost "dummy dps". this has nothing to do with that, it's about how this is going to impact our progression in content.

I've cleared all HM apart from vRG and vDSR. I have the experience to look at the numbers on the dummy and translate it to how it's going to impact our group.
I have no motivation to head back into vRG HM prog once this update goes live.
None.

spacefracking

BalticBlues wrote: »

Overreacting? Real PTS gameplay:
"Damage is going down, I mean WAY DOWN"

"Dots are so weak [...] you need to stack 5 or 6 dots to make any type of impact."
"VMA, Vateshran: If you place a ground base dot [...] it's really not worth it anymore."
"PvP: Dot builds will go away for the most part."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwAimsO1gVE

Lot of power creep. 100k was godly about a year ago, and there are 140k parses out there now.

Certain classes have long needed that many dots to perform well. I see classes using 7 abilities to deal 40% more damage than God tier a year ago. Others have long needed 12 casted abilities to perform.

I do def agree on the planesbreaker thing tho, that place needs a big nerf to fall in line with its damage requirements vs those of the rest of the endgame content (which, with this power creep, a gap which can now be addressed).

4 second 4 man boss burn videos are a genre of YouTube video nowadays.

If people want content, try something like vMHK without no phasing everything, in basic gear (like, julianos and something else very basic).

There are two ends of argument as I see it here: end game is a bore now, and major achievements in endgame should be possible for an extremely large audience.

There are many factors at play here, and this is just a cursory take on it, and a valid one

Darkstorne

spacefracking wrote: »

Lot of power creep. 100k was godly about a year ago, and there are 140k parses out there now.

And if these changes were only lowering the ceiling without touching the floor, I might agree with you (there are still legit concerns about the two latest trials being balanced around the current high DPS ceiling on live servers, that aren't being retuned in line with these nerfs).

But that's not what's happening. ZOS is taking a sledgehammer to literally everyone's DPS. I already know a bunch of friends who I encouraged to try ESO because they are big Elder Scrolls fans, who got instantly turned off by how weak ESO's combat feels as a new player (all white gear, no set bonuses, no CP, is not a fun time even on live). Now for whatever mad reason ZOS is deciding to make it an even harder time for new players.

Mr_Stach

spacefracking wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

Overreacting? Real PTS gameplay:
"Damage is going down, I mean WAY DOWN"

"Dots are so weak [...] you need to stack 5 or 6 dots to make any type of impact."
"VMA, Vateshran: If you place a ground base dot [...] it's really not worth it anymore."
"PvP: Dot builds will go away for the most part."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwAimsO1gVE

Lot of power creep. 100k was godly about a year ago, and there are 140k parses out there now.

Certain classes have long needed that many dots to perform well. I see classes using 7 abilities to deal 40% more damage than God tier a year ago. Others have long needed 12 casted abilities to perform.

I do def agree on the planesbreaker thing tho, that place needs a big nerf to fall in line with its damage requirements vs those of the rest of the endgame content (which, with this power creep, a gap which can now be addressed).

4 second 4 man boss burn videos are a genre of YouTube video nowadays.

If people want content, try something like vMHK without no phasing everything, in basic gear (like, julianos and something else very basic).

There are two ends of argument as I see it here: end game is a bore now, and major achievements in endgame should be possible for an extremely large audience.

There are many factors at play here, and this is just a cursory take on it, and a valid one

I'm not going to say that the Damage Ceiling didn't need to be lowered, I think it did and that's fine. I'm more concerned with some of the Class Changes that hurt players at every level.

For Warden it's the Advanced Species Rework, it's their main damage boosting skill and it's essentially become something that is only useful in unoptimized groups, and if you run Light Armor? You don't get any use out of it at all. Might be nice in PvP but in Vet PvE Content, it's a waste. Also a huge hit on Warden DPS.

For Sorc, there's a number of changes, of course the Crystal weapon and Armaments are basically destroyed all because of the interaction between Savage Werewolf and Crystal Weapon, but also Storm Atro has been really nerfed as well.

I don't mind nerfing the juiced up over performing guys doing 140k Damage, but Warden? Warden was middle of the Pack and it got hit probably the hardest, or close to it. And a lot of these changes are not just nuking the top, it's nuking the bottom too. It's not making anything more Accessible, if anything it's making higher end content or even mid tier content even tougher for people already struggling to get there.

sneakymitchell

Pevey wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Players just uses the dummy to see their dps potential.

But how about doing a vet duegeon or a vet trail. People always speculate but never do the full results in a real scenario.

People on PTS are doing (attempting) vet trials and giving feedback.

https://www.esologs.com/reports/aBVHDWmR7cyFAKbn

What vet dungeons and trials are you doing? Do you at least read the patch notes and decide for yourself?

Look all I’ve been seeing is players just smacking a dummy and even if they say they lose dps but have it comes to mind if they actually doing some of the vet trails and duegeons than giving feedback on a dummy parse

sneakymitchell

spacefracking wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

Overreacting? Real PTS gameplay:
"Damage is going down, I mean WAY DOWN"

"Dots are so weak [...] you need to stack 5 or 6 dots to make any type of impact."
"VMA, Vateshran: If you place a ground base dot [...] it's really not worth it anymore."
"PvP: Dot builds will go away for the most part."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwAimsO1gVE

Lot of power creep. 100k was godly about a year ago, and there are 140k parses out there now.

Certain classes have long needed that many dots to perform well. I see classes using 7 abilities to deal 40% more damage than God tier a year ago. Others have long needed 12 casted abilities to perform.

I do def agree on the planesbreaker thing tho, that place needs a big nerf to fall in line with its damage requirements vs those of the rest of the endgame content (which, with this power creep, a gap which can now be addressed).

4 second 4 man boss burn videos are a genre of YouTube video nowadays.

If people want content, try something like vMHK without no phasing everything, in basic gear (like, julianos and something else very basic).

There are two ends of argument as I see it here: end game is a bore now, and major achievements in endgame should be possible for an extremely large audience.

There are many factors at play here, and this is just a cursory take on it, and a valid one

Yea the achievements and titles also the skins

Nowadays people need to buy the runs in order to get them. Or pull a heavy a lot of you weight. Thing is if one person screws up it be like WoW where they blame that person till the end of times. Calling them scrub, newb, and other things.

I did run with randoms for the Beast personality. It was fun going through it over and over while having fun and we didn’t get mad much at all for a wipe. We were at it mostly all night. But the player base nowadays don’t got time for all nighter and just want the highest dps as possible to get through to go to bed cause they got work. Once player base grows up players move on and others got jobs and can’t be on a lot of times

Kusto

I was also overreacting and panicking at first but after testing different setups for few days and seeing other peoples results, I can say it's not all doom and gloom. Top end players still hit 100k+. While that probably won't help them completing some HMs and trifectas, the more casual player who just does non hm trials is gonna be fine. Yes, we all lost dps but it only seems to affect the 0,1% who run for trifectas and score. Zos should just tone down some of the HMs and it's all good.

People who just do overland, housing, trading will not be affected and that's the majority of playerbase already. Then there's the next group who maybe does some normal group content. They currently hit 10k or so ( just my observation from pugging normals for transmutes and trial coffers). Not much gonna change for them either. Their dps may actually improve because they dont use many skills and usually just spamm spammable and maybe cast few dots when they remember. And then there's the next group who does vet dungeons and non hm trials, Crag pugs etc. Their dps may suffer some but it gives them more reason to get better. This group usually follows some big bois guide on YT and I'm sure all content creators will update their builds once the patch drops. Every time when there are major combat charges you need to adjust your build and rotation. If you jump on pts with your current build and parse the same rotation then ofcourse you'll panic seeing the results. I already climbed from 85k (dropped from 114k) to 90k by just making some changes. With little more tweaking I think I can reach 95k. I know its still down from live and considering the dummy buffs its even more down but unless you're score pusher, which I'm not, then it wont matter. I can still clear the same content as currently on live.

Ditronus

Aldoss wrote: »

Not over reacting. The changes are actually that bad.

ZOS is looking at the largest exodus of vet players they've ever had in one update if they don't walk these changes back and put any amount of character and joy back into their game.

Maybe it hasn't been stated enough: vet players love the skill ceiling of this game. It's quite literally what makes this game so fun. If you remove the skill ceiling, especially in the way the patch is proposing by homogenizing all classes, skills, and rotations, that joy of the challenge goes away.

How much time have you spent on the pts this week? What factors make you think these changes are a step in the right direction? Genuine question.

Going through a static rotation several dozen times in a boss fight with light attack weaves is a high skill ceiling to you? There's no intricacies to the gameplay. There's nothing dynamic. You literally buff, dot, spam, repeat until the thing dies. Every class and every build.