Idea how to fix DPS problems:

JustAGoodPlayer

Current PTS idea is to nerf LA damage to make difference in DPS smaller.

Such changes will add a lot of new problems. Lose of DPS - content that will not be possible to pass, sets/skills will need changes.

I have better idea for it. Now all is ok with the game - it is not perfect, but to make it better lets just stop do big changes.

Current DPS is OK, all content is possible to pass. Some classes have 20% more DPS than others, but just this classes have to be fixed.

To make players who do no LA or do mistakes in rotation stronger is possible to empower, by not empowering top DPS players.

What is LA - it is free damage you use betwin skills, free source of damage.

For players who do not want to do it we can add another free damage sources.

As example buff their next skill damage per 10% if they use no LA.

So if now player with LA do 120k damage, player with no LA will do not 100k as example, but 110k.

Players who skip part of his attacks will do 110-120k DPS, so it will not be too much difference in DPS.

For players who use HA - HA is a lose of DPS itself - after pllayer do HA it can give him buff for 3-4 seconds making his attacks do 10-15%more damage as example ?

So not LA builds will get DPS close to good LA rotation builds. LA will give more DPS, players can combine LA/HA/Skills in rotation more easely.

We will not do any other changes in skills for now.

And change some sets:
Z'en - sustained bonus change on SPD/WPD and this set now proc on HA too.

Inphelible aether - give 900 not only to HA but to LA too.

Undaunted infiltrator and same sets:
Stamina/mana changes on spd/wpd or crit chance.
5- bonus is the same buff - as aether -
but gives 900 to LA and HA and 1 set as example buff all party members SPD per 200-300 wpd/spd or gives 5% to damage or 300+ resource regeneration.

As exampke infiltrator gives to group members 200spd and wpd, unwever 200mana and stamina regen, noble dualist 5% all melee damage.

So it will not make sets to OP make it usefull in PVE and PVP.

And let buff group.

We will not need nerf any body the same time.

To make characters based on sustained races less nerfed we can make LA and HA of this races more on some fixed ammount in passives to let them do a little more damage too, so characters with stamina/mana recovery bonuses can be little less nerfed too.

Or make their race buff gives a little fixed bonus if they do not use la to next attack too as example.

What do you think about such idea ?

(Can not add vote for topic with good/bad/just look results variants )

(Can not create pol - forum is not mobile device friendly)

Ratzkifal

I think your suggestion is already unnecessarily complicated.

We know what light attack damage is at right now at the top.
We have a damage standard for spammables.
So we just need to nerf light attack damage and then buff the spammable damage standard by the same amount of dps assuming perfect weaving.

This would keep dps pretty much the same for people who are perfect at weaving and buff anyone who hasn't been weaving before, because light attacks matter less in the grand scheme of things. People with improper weaving will receive a smaller buff but still close the gap towards the top.

JustAGoodPlayer

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I think your suggestion is already unnecessarily complicated.

We know what light attack damage is at right now at the top.
We have a damage standard for spammables.
So we just need to nerf light attack damage and then buff the spammable damage standard by the same amount of dps assuming perfect weaving.

This would keep dps pretty much the same for people who are perfect at weaving and buff anyone who hasn't been weaving before, because light attacks matter less in the grand scheme of things. People with improper weaving will receive a smaller buff but still close the gap towards the top.

There are builds who use HA use only LA or do not use spammable - such builds will get hard nerf.

So it will again be just empowering some part of builds, not real short the gap between players.

spartaxoxo

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I think your suggestion is already unnecessarily complicated.

We know what light attack damage is at right now at the top.
We have a damage standard for spammables.
So we just need to nerf light attack damage and then buff the spammable damage standard by the same amount of dps assuming perfect weaving.

This would keep dps pretty much the same for people who are perfect at weaving and buff anyone who hasn't been weaving before, because light attacks matter less in the grand scheme of things. People with improper weaving will receive a smaller buff but still close the gap towards the top.

This is honestly how I thought they were gonna do it. I was expecting class buffs to offset the dot and light attack nerfs. Alongside a small buff to heavy attack builds. In this manner, high end builds would go down only about 6% and people in the middle get buffed up a little. And the gap was closed a bit while still being quite present. By placing a bit more emphasis on class skills versus weaving, they'd ensure that players were hitting closer.

I was completely blown away that they decided to gut class skills to adjust for nerfs for Dots/LAs.

I genuinely don't understand how they thought that gutting everyone's damage was supposed to lower the gap or get more people into vet content, which they did not adjust in accordance with the new power levels. I literally am completely confused as to how that was supposed to work.

JustAGoodPlayer

Current PTS changes are really strange and more have ninja fixes, that breake a lot of builds and sets - that even are not listed in patch notes.

Holycannoli

The thing is the LA + HA nerf isn't even the issue with the patch. It's all other nerfs.

If they had left it at just that LA + HA nerf it would be no big deal. But noooo, they went and nerfed DoTs and classes, in some cases so much those classes will be shelved and those skills will be respecced out of. Who is gonna use Crystal Weapons after this? Who's gonna choose Carve over Brawler after this? Who's even going to want to play a stam sorc after this?

JustAGoodPlayer

Holycannoli wrote: »

The thing is the LA + HA nerf isn't even the issue with the patch. It's all other nerfs.

If they had left it at just that LA + HA nerf it would be no big deal. But noooo, they went and nerfed DoTs and classes, in some cases so much those classes will be shelved and those skills will be respecced out of. Who is gonna use Crystal Weapons after this? Who's gonna choose Carve over Brawler after this? Who's even going to want to play a stam sorc after this?

Current dots of DK are 14 seconds, mage guild dots are 14 seconds.

If just make some dots morpghs 14 seconds other 10 and weapon wall skills 10/14 seconds it is already good.

20 seconds dots are to much, it is not needed.

Buffs from some skills can be make longer a little as exampke dot works 10-14 seconds but buff from it for 20 seconds.

You will use it every 10/14 seconds any way, but for some players who lose in rotation it can be helpfull.

But current PTS is .... mamma mia - what the hell i just see ))

Agenericname

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I think your suggestion is already unnecessarily complicated.

We know what light attack damage is at right now at the top.
We have a damage standard for spammables.
So we just need to nerf light attack damage and then buff the spammable damage standard by the same amount of dps assuming perfect weaving.

This would keep dps pretty much the same for people who are perfect at weaving and buff anyone who hasn't been weaving before, because light attacks matter less in the grand scheme of things. People with improper weaving will receive a smaller buff but still close the gap towards the top.

This is honestly how I thought they were gonna do it. I was expecting class buffs to offset the dot and light attack nerfs. Alongside a small buff to heavy attack builds. In this manner, high end builds would go down only about 6% and people in the middle get buffed up a little. And the gap was closed a bit while still being quite present. By placing a bit more emphasis on class skills versus weaving, they'd ensure that players were hitting closer.

I was completely blown away that they decided to gut class skills to adjust for nerfs for Dots/LAs.

I genuinely don't understand how they thought that gutting everyone's damage was supposed to lower the gap or get more people into vet content, which they did not adjust in accordance with the new power levels. I literally am completely confused as to how that was supposed to work.

Im not sure that was their goal, or maybe not their focus. They talk about progression points and such which lead me to believe that they're talking about it a broad sense, like low dps players wanting to progress from normal to vet, then I read this a little closer;
Currently, to be truly effective in ESO’s combat, you need to learn to manipulate something that is known as “weaving,”
Weaving isnt necessary to be effective, its necessary to be optimal. A player can already clear, or transition, from normal to veteran without light attacks at all. They simply dont bridge the gap between 40-50k dps and +100k. There are other reasons why those gaps exist, it doesn't rest on the shoulders of LAs.

The content that their talking about is high end content where LAs are essential, not "hey, lets go get the Work Cult personality" prog.

JustAGoodPlayer

Agenericname wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I think your suggestion is already unnecessarily complicated.

We know what light attack damage is at right now at the top.
We have a damage standard for spammables.
So we just need to nerf light attack damage and then buff the spammable damage standard by the same amount of dps assuming perfect weaving.

This would keep dps pretty much the same for people who are perfect at weaving and buff anyone who hasn't been weaving before, because light attacks matter less in the grand scheme of things. People with improper weaving will receive a smaller buff but still close the gap towards the top.

This is honestly how I thought they were gonna do it. I was expecting class buffs to offset the dot and light attack nerfs. Alongside a small buff to heavy attack builds. In this manner, high end builds would go down only about 6% and people in the middle get buffed up a little. And the gap was closed a bit while still being quite present. By placing a bit more emphasis on class skills versus weaving, they'd ensure that players were hitting closer.

I was completely blown away that they decided to gut class skills to adjust for nerfs for Dots/LAs.

I genuinely don't understand how they thought that gutting everyone's damage was supposed to lower the gap or get more people into vet content, which they did not adjust in accordance with the new power levels. I literally am completely confused as to how that was supposed to work.

Im not sure that was their goal, or maybe not their focus. They talk about progression points and such which lead me to believe that they're talking about it a broad sense, like low dps players wanting to progress from normal to vet, then I read this a little closer;
Currently, to be truly effective in ESO’s combat, you need to learn to manipulate something that is known as “weaving,”
Weaving isnt necessary to be effective, its necessary to be optimal. A player can already clear, or transition, from normal to veteran without light attacks at all. They simply dont bridge the gap between 40-50k dps and +100k. There are other reasons why those gaps exist, it doesn't rest on the shoulders of LAs.

The content that their talking about is high end content where LAs are essential, not "hey, lets go get the Work Cult personality" prog.

There are players who want to pass any content on favorite class and build. And they even do not move a finger to do it on some META or ALT character. But if it is possible to do when your damage is 100k, after you get nerf to 80-70-60 k dps as exampke it is not possible. You just will not land in time.

Is it honest - no.

But a lot of players get their nerfs because of "la players point of view = it is not skilled" - but no one see any skilled in them too to start with.

Now we see how deep it all goes to. And than more people can rotate and do "wiwing" - if people do not really like it and are forced to do it, than more problems "la-gods" get on their own head.

They self proclaimed themselves skilled and game is now balanced for them.

Of course a lot of players do not like it. And you can see how much. That such changes appears so much.

But i think that it must be some honest concept how it all must look like, to make all players and builds happy.

Why do you think i have so much hate to LA players ? )

But to make game bad is not a good option too. All we really need is a good balance in different play styles. Stability and make some core balance that then will not be changed.

And if your play style is META - toxic players is what you get. So have a liiitle less damage some times is even better )))

But this damage difference must not be a reason for really good players be restricted to get in some groups because of "DPS".

As exampke I pass HM of RED dragon with 35 k DPS group ))

I was tank. We kill it second in second when he start his wipe mechanick

It was quite fun )))

And i see no reason why such players are less exp. Because of DPS difference ? But this difference is because a lot of builds and players was nerfed by the reason of some on say - that you need La+ skill 24*7

Ratzkifal

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I think your suggestion is already unnecessarily complicated.

We know what light attack damage is at right now at the top.
We have a damage standard for spammables.
So we just need to nerf light attack damage and then buff the spammable damage standard by the same amount of dps assuming perfect weaving.

This would keep dps pretty much the same for people who are perfect at weaving and buff anyone who hasn't been weaving before, because light attacks matter less in the grand scheme of things. People with improper weaving will receive a smaller buff but still close the gap towards the top.

There are builds who use HA use only LA or do not use spammable - such builds will get hard nerf.

So it will again be just empowering some part of builds, not real short the gap between players.

Are you talking about PvP here? Because these builds aren't that great in PvE and switching your playstyle to just use a spammable is not actually that difficult, especially with weaving not being mandatory anymore.
The only thing that really needs to be adjusted is werewolf because werewolves are primarily using light attacks, so they could use a damage buff if we go with that approach.
Heavy attack builds are only popular because they are so easy to play, so giving them an alternative (using just a spammable without weaving) should be able to replace this playstyle without issue.
If it's really a big issue then the heavy and light attack buffing sets can get a buff as well so that you can build into that if you want to without anyone being forced to make use of weaving to be effective. That's really no big deal.

JustAGoodPlayer

Ratzkifal wrote: »

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I think your suggestion is already unnecessarily complicated.

We know what light attack damage is at right now at the top.
We have a damage standard for spammables.
So we just need to nerf light attack damage and then buff the spammable damage standard by the same amount of dps assuming perfect weaving.

This would keep dps pretty much the same for people who are perfect at weaving and buff anyone who hasn't been weaving before, because light attacks matter less in the grand scheme of things. People with improper weaving will receive a smaller buff but still close the gap towards the top.

There are builds who use HA use only LA or do not use spammable - such builds will get hard nerf.

So it will again be just empowering some part of builds, not real short the gap between players.

Are you talking about PvP here? Because these builds aren't that great in PvE and switching your playstyle to just use a spammable is not actually that difficult, especially with weaving not being mandatory anymore.
The only thing that really needs to be adjusted is werewolf because werewolves are primarily using light attacks, so they could use a damage buff if we go with that approach.
Heavy attack builds are only popular because they are so easy to play, so giving them an alternative (using just a spammable without weaving) should be able to replace this playstyle without issue.
If it's really a big issue then the heavy and light attack buffing sets can get a buff as well so that you can build into that if you want to without anyone being forced to make use of weaving to be effective. That's really no big deal.

In LA point of view other builds even do not exist in PVE ? )))

I am HA player and i play both PVE and PVP.

Some only PVE LA only builds do about 90-100 k dps in some updates to as example.

Yes we have not 140-150 k dps 100k is a limit for such builds but yes we do exist )))

Ratzkifal

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I think your suggestion is already unnecessarily complicated.

We know what light attack damage is at right now at the top.
We have a damage standard for spammables.
So we just need to nerf light attack damage and then buff the spammable damage standard by the same amount of dps assuming perfect weaving.

This would keep dps pretty much the same for people who are perfect at weaving and buff anyone who hasn't been weaving before, because light attacks matter less in the grand scheme of things. People with improper weaving will receive a smaller buff but still close the gap towards the top.

This is honestly how I thought they were gonna do it. I was expecting class buffs to offset the dot and light attack nerfs. Alongside a small buff to heavy attack builds. In this manner, high end builds would go down only about 6% and people in the middle get buffed up a little. And the gap was closed a bit while still being quite present. By placing a bit more emphasis on class skills versus weaving, they'd ensure that players were hitting closer.

I was completely blown away that they decided to gut class skills to adjust for nerfs for Dots/LAs.

I genuinely don't understand how they thought that gutting everyone's damage was supposed to lower the gap or get more people into vet content, which they did not adjust in accordance with the new power levels. I literally am completely confused as to how that was supposed to work.

I think it's a case of organizational blindness. ZOS has been collectively looking at numbers so much that they've lost touch. They see the game as variables, numbers and data. The DPS delta is the value they want to minimize because that is the size of the gap. If the gap is small, so they think, the best and worst players will be closer together and the progression will become easier because there is less of a difference to overcome to "get good". But that's simply not true. Mathematically speaking ZOS has been obsessing over the relative values that they've lost track of the absolute values in the process and these are the ones that count when it comes to actually completing content.
To clarify with an extreme example, if we removed all damage in the game, the delta would be 0, but that wouldn't actually be a good solution even if there would be 0 difference to overcome, because content would also become impossible.

They thought lowering the ceiling would be an option because that would reduce the delta, but only raising the floor is actually an acceptable solution. The trick is to raise the floor without also raising the ceiling, and players at the top are notorious for taking advantage of little changes to great effect. If the new rotations were actually easier to handle ZOS' suggestion could have worked, but that is not the case, and they forgot that content needs to be adjusted if they are going to lower the ceiling. So instead everyone loses and ZOS is getting flak for their bad changes.

Agenericname

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I think your suggestion is already unnecessarily complicated.

We know what light attack damage is at right now at the top.
We have a damage standard for spammables.
So we just need to nerf light attack damage and then buff the spammable damage standard by the same amount of dps assuming perfect weaving.

This would keep dps pretty much the same for people who are perfect at weaving and buff anyone who hasn't been weaving before, because light attacks matter less in the grand scheme of things. People with improper weaving will receive a smaller buff but still close the gap towards the top.

This is honestly how I thought they were gonna do it. I was expecting class buffs to offset the dot and light attack nerfs. Alongside a small buff to heavy attack builds. In this manner, high end builds would go down only about 6% and people in the middle get buffed up a little. And the gap was closed a bit while still being quite present. By placing a bit more emphasis on class skills versus weaving, they'd ensure that players were hitting closer.

I was completely blown away that they decided to gut class skills to adjust for nerfs for Dots/LAs.

I genuinely don't understand how they thought that gutting everyone's damage was supposed to lower the gap or get more people into vet content, which they did not adjust in accordance with the new power levels. I literally am completely confused as to how that was supposed to work.

Im not sure that was their goal, or maybe not their focus. They talk about progression points and such which lead me to believe that they're talking about it a broad sense, like low dps players wanting to progress from normal to vet, then I read this a little closer;
Currently, to be truly effective in ESO’s combat, you need to learn to manipulate something that is known as “weaving,”
Weaving isnt necessary to be effective, its necessary to be optimal. A player can already clear, or transition, from normal to veteran without light attacks at all. They simply dont bridge the gap between 40-50k dps and +100k. There are other reasons why those gaps exist, it doesn't rest on the shoulders of LAs.

The content that their talking about is high end content where LAs are essential, not "hey, lets go get the Work Cult personality" prog.

There are players who want to pass any content on favorite class and build. And they even do not move a finger to do it on some META or ALT character. But if it is possible to do when your damage is 100k, after you get nerf to 80-70-60 k dps as exampke it is not possible. You just will not land in time.

Is it honest - no.

But a lot of players get their nerfs because of "la players point of view = it is not skilled" - but no one see any skilled in them too to start with.

Now we see how deep it all goes to. And than more people can rotate and do "wiwing" - if people do not really like it and are forced to do it, than more problems "la-gods" get on their own head.

They self proclaimed themselves skilled and game is now balanced for them.

Of course a lot of players do not like it. And you can see how much. That such changes appears so much.

But i think that it must be some honest concept how it all must look like, to make all players and builds happy.

Why do you think i have so much hate to LA players ? )

But to make game bad is not a good option too. All we really need is a good balance in different play styles. Stability and make some core balance that then will not be changed.

And if your play style is META - toxic players is what you get. So have a liiitle less damage some times is even better )))

But this damage difference must not be a reason for really good players be restricted to get in some groups because of "DPS".

As exampke I pass HM of RED dragon with 35 k DPS group ))

I was tank. We kill it second in second when he start his wipe mechanick

It was quite fun )))

And i see no reason why such players are less exp. Because of DPS difference ? But this difference is because a lot of builds and players was nerfed by the reason of some on say - that you need La+ skill 24*7

As far as players hating other players for how they a video game; the concept seems as foreign to me as hating someone for liking onions on their cheeseburger. I think game balance may not be as important as it seems, in comparison.

Light attacks require more effort in many cases. The extra effort gets rewarded. I dont see an issue with that.

Players arent the only ones that embraced light attacks. In Sumerset ZOS introduced sets and abilities that were dependent on them; Relequen, Psyjic Order, later Kinras, and passive effects like Empower, not to mention classes that depend heavily on them like NightBlades for the sustain and bow proc.

Players say you need light attacks, yes. Sometimes thats erroneous. Sometimes it isn't. ZOS also said that in the text that I quoted.

You can not like light attacks all youd like, but you cant honestly lay this at the feet of the players. Its not the players point of view, ZOS created this. If there is single mechanic in this game that requires the player integrate light attacks into their build to pass the mechanic, it was put there by ZOS.

I tend to agree, less change. This is exhausting.

spartaxoxo

Agenericname wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I think your suggestion is already unnecessarily complicated.

We know what light attack damage is at right now at the top.
We have a damage standard for spammables.
So we just need to nerf light attack damage and then buff the spammable damage standard by the same amount of dps assuming perfect weaving.

This would keep dps pretty much the same for people who are perfect at weaving and buff anyone who hasn't been weaving before, because light attacks matter less in the grand scheme of things. People with improper weaving will receive a smaller buff but still close the gap towards the top.

This is honestly how I thought they were gonna do it. I was expecting class buffs to offset the dot and light attack nerfs. Alongside a small buff to heavy attack builds. In this manner, high end builds would go down only about 6% and people in the middle get buffed up a little. And the gap was closed a bit while still being quite present. By placing a bit more emphasis on class skills versus weaving, they'd ensure that players were hitting closer.

I was completely blown away that they decided to gut class skills to adjust for nerfs for Dots/LAs.

I genuinely don't understand how they thought that gutting everyone's damage was supposed to lower the gap or get more people into vet content, which they did not adjust in accordance with the new power levels. I literally am completely confused as to how that was supposed to work.

Im not sure that was their goal, or maybe not their focus.

If you watch the ESO Live, you'll see that it actually was the goal and focus of this patch.

Ratzkifal

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I think your suggestion is already unnecessarily complicated.

We know what light attack damage is at right now at the top.
We have a damage standard for spammables.
So we just need to nerf light attack damage and then buff the spammable damage standard by the same amount of dps assuming perfect weaving.

This would keep dps pretty much the same for people who are perfect at weaving and buff anyone who hasn't been weaving before, because light attacks matter less in the grand scheme of things. People with improper weaving will receive a smaller buff but still close the gap towards the top.

There are builds who use HA use only LA or do not use spammable - such builds will get hard nerf.

So it will again be just empowering some part of builds, not real short the gap between players.

Are you talking about PvP here? Because these builds aren't that great in PvE and switching your playstyle to just use a spammable is not actually that difficult, especially with weaving not being mandatory anymore.
The only thing that really needs to be adjusted is werewolf because werewolves are primarily using light attacks, so they could use a damage buff if we go with that approach.
Heavy attack builds are only popular because they are so easy to play, so giving them an alternative (using just a spammable without weaving) should be able to replace this playstyle without issue.
If it's really a big issue then the heavy and light attack buffing sets can get a buff as well so that you can build into that if you want to without anyone being forced to make use of weaving to be effective. That's really no big deal.

In LA point of view other builds even do not exist in PVE ? )))

I am HA player and i play both PVE and PVP.

Some only PVE LA only builds do about 90-100 k dps in some updates to as example.

Yes we have not 140-150 k dps 100k is a limit for such builds but yes we do exist )))

Can you show me a parse of that? Because that honestly sounds hard to believe. You must be using a ton of dots to reach 100k dps if you are playing without a spammable. I know those builds exist, but these are not "LA only" builds. Or are you talking about crystal weapon? Because that's a spammable...

Agenericname

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I think your suggestion is already unnecessarily complicated.

We know what light attack damage is at right now at the top.
We have a damage standard for spammables.
So we just need to nerf light attack damage and then buff the spammable damage standard by the same amount of dps assuming perfect weaving.

This would keep dps pretty much the same for people who are perfect at weaving and buff anyone who hasn't been weaving before, because light attacks matter less in the grand scheme of things. People with improper weaving will receive a smaller buff but still close the gap towards the top.

This is honestly how I thought they were gonna do it. I was expecting class buffs to offset the dot and light attack nerfs. Alongside a small buff to heavy attack builds. In this manner, high end builds would go down only about 6% and people in the middle get buffed up a little. And the gap was closed a bit while still being quite present. By placing a bit more emphasis on class skills versus weaving, they'd ensure that players were hitting closer.

I was completely blown away that they decided to gut class skills to adjust for nerfs for Dots/LAs.

I genuinely don't understand how they thought that gutting everyone's damage was supposed to lower the gap or get more people into vet content, which they did not adjust in accordance with the new power levels. I literally am completely confused as to how that was supposed to work.

Im not sure that was their goal, or maybe not their focus.

If you watch the ESO Live, you'll see that it actually was the goal and focus of this patch.

And my argument is this; what content requires weaving? What content is weaving light attacks required to be effective? Not optimal, effective?

Ratzkifal

Agenericname wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I think your suggestion is already unnecessarily complicated.

We know what light attack damage is at right now at the top.
We have a damage standard for spammables.
So we just need to nerf light attack damage and then buff the spammable damage standard by the same amount of dps assuming perfect weaving.

This would keep dps pretty much the same for people who are perfect at weaving and buff anyone who hasn't been weaving before, because light attacks matter less in the grand scheme of things. People with improper weaving will receive a smaller buff but still close the gap towards the top.

This is honestly how I thought they were gonna do it. I was expecting class buffs to offset the dot and light attack nerfs. Alongside a small buff to heavy attack builds. In this manner, high end builds would go down only about 6% and people in the middle get buffed up a little. And the gap was closed a bit while still being quite present. By placing a bit more emphasis on class skills versus weaving, they'd ensure that players were hitting closer.

I was completely blown away that they decided to gut class skills to adjust for nerfs for Dots/LAs.

I genuinely don't understand how they thought that gutting everyone's damage was supposed to lower the gap or get more people into vet content, which they did not adjust in accordance with the new power levels. I literally am completely confused as to how that was supposed to work.

Im not sure that was their goal, or maybe not their focus.

If you watch the ESO Live, you'll see that it actually was the goal and focus of this patch.

And my argument is this; what content requires weaving? What content is weaving light attacks required to be effective? Not optimal, effective?

Most dungeon DLC hardmodes. All veteran trials. All veteran trial hardmodes. You may be able to squeeze by not doing it, but if all of the damage dealers aren't doing it, you are just not going to complete that trial.
My dps record is 68k, my buff uptimes are perfect. What isn't perfect is my weaving (I think it was 0.7LA/s). My trial guild had a requirement of 75k dps, so i never made the cut for proper runs and eventually gave up because trying harder than that, while possible, is making my hand hurt which ruins the fun of it.

Agenericname

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I think your suggestion is already unnecessarily complicated.

We know what light attack damage is at right now at the top.
We have a damage standard for spammables.
So we just need to nerf light attack damage and then buff the spammable damage standard by the same amount of dps assuming perfect weaving.

This would keep dps pretty much the same for people who are perfect at weaving and buff anyone who hasn't been weaving before, because light attacks matter less in the grand scheme of things. People with improper weaving will receive a smaller buff but still close the gap towards the top.

This is honestly how I thought they were gonna do it. I was expecting class buffs to offset the dot and light attack nerfs. Alongside a small buff to heavy attack builds. In this manner, high end builds would go down only about 6% and people in the middle get buffed up a little. And the gap was closed a bit while still being quite present. By placing a bit more emphasis on class skills versus weaving, they'd ensure that players were hitting closer.

I was completely blown away that they decided to gut class skills to adjust for nerfs for Dots/LAs.

I genuinely don't understand how they thought that gutting everyone's damage was supposed to lower the gap or get more people into vet content, which they did not adjust in accordance with the new power levels. I literally am completely confused as to how that was supposed to work.

Im not sure that was their goal, or maybe not their focus.

If you watch the ESO Live, you'll see that it actually was the goal and focus of this patch.

And my argument is this; what content requires weaving? What content is weaving light attacks required to be effective? Not optimal, effective?

Most dungeon DLC hardmodes. All veteran trials. All veteran trial hardmodes. You may be able to squeeze by not doing it, but if all of the damage dealers aren't doing it, you are just not going to complete that trial.
My dps record is 68k, my buff uptimes are perfect. What isn't perfect is my weaving (I think it was 0.7LA/s). My trial guild had a requirement of 75k dps, so i never made the cut for proper runs and eventually gave up because trying harder than that, while possible, is making my hand hurt which ruins the fun of it.

LAs may be the difference between your parse and your guilds requirements. I wouldnt debate that. What I meant is the actual content itself.

As to dungeon HMs, no, I dont think thats the case. I have done most and about 2/3s of the tris. My weaving average is somewhere in the neighborhood of .15-.3 on average and .4 on the high side. Thats doing comparable numbers to the other DD. We are usually within 5k of each other.

A while back someone posted a parse of +100k without weaving at all. Another posted +90k without them.

I think if ZOS were truly concerned about helping players transition they would shift the focus from the 10-15% damage from weaving to how other players are able to make up much larger differences without them.

JustAGoodPlayer

Ratzkifal wrote: »

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I think your suggestion is already unnecessarily complicated.

We know what light attack damage is at right now at the top.
We have a damage standard for spammables.
So we just need to nerf light attack damage and then buff the spammable damage standard by the same amount of dps assuming perfect weaving.

This would keep dps pretty much the same for people who are perfect at weaving and buff anyone who hasn't been weaving before, because light attacks matter less in the grand scheme of things. People with improper weaving will receive a smaller buff but still close the gap towards the top.

There are builds who use HA use only LA or do not use spammable - such builds will get hard nerf.

So it will again be just empowering some part of builds, not real short the gap between players.

Are you talking about PvP here? Because these builds aren't that great in PvE and switching your playstyle to just use a spammable is not actually that difficult, especially with weaving not being mandatory anymore.
The only thing that really needs to be adjusted is werewolf because werewolves are primarily using light attacks, so they could use a damage buff if we go with that approach.
Heavy attack builds are only popular because they are so easy to play, so giving them an alternative (using just a spammable without weaving) should be able to replace this playstyle without issue.
If it's really a big issue then the heavy and light attack buffing sets can get a buff as well so that you can build into that if you want to without anyone being forced to make use of weaving to be effective. That's really no big deal.

In LA point of view other builds even do not exist in PVE ? )))

I am HA player and i play both PVE and PVP.

Some only PVE LA only builds do about 90-100 k dps in some updates to as example.

Yes we have not 140-150 k dps 100k is a limit for such builds but yes we do exist )))

Can you show me a parse of that? Because that honestly sounds hard to believe. You must be using a ton of dots to reach 100k dps if you are playing without a spammable. I know those builds exist, but these are not "LA only" builds. Or are you talking about crystal weapon? Because that's a spammable...

I am more focused on HA builds - but the same fo LA spamming builds too. better look it on youtube.

But with constant changes - we get hurt each update. A lot of our streamers and good players leave the game the same way.

https://youtu.be/G4jg6B9c39A

Hybridization ? La builds get sustain - we get really nothing - but than what ? DPS nerf - who lose damage all lose damage )))

The same way each update )

Sets - nerf - CP - nerf - some thing good nerf again.

This update - lightning stuff - sets - damage all nerfed on pts )))

But ZOS wants better for us )) But why we always lose damage ? )))

Ratzkifal

Agenericname wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I think your suggestion is already unnecessarily complicated.

We know what light attack damage is at right now at the top.
We have a damage standard for spammables.
So we just need to nerf light attack damage and then buff the spammable damage standard by the same amount of dps assuming perfect weaving.

This would keep dps pretty much the same for people who are perfect at weaving and buff anyone who hasn't been weaving before, because light attacks matter less in the grand scheme of things. People with improper weaving will receive a smaller buff but still close the gap towards the top.

This is honestly how I thought they were gonna do it. I was expecting class buffs to offset the dot and light attack nerfs. Alongside a small buff to heavy attack builds. In this manner, high end builds would go down only about 6% and people in the middle get buffed up a little. And the gap was closed a bit while still being quite present. By placing a bit more emphasis on class skills versus weaving, they'd ensure that players were hitting closer.

I was completely blown away that they decided to gut class skills to adjust for nerfs for Dots/LAs.

I genuinely don't understand how they thought that gutting everyone's damage was supposed to lower the gap or get more people into vet content, which they did not adjust in accordance with the new power levels. I literally am completely confused as to how that was supposed to work.

Im not sure that was their goal, or maybe not their focus.

If you watch the ESO Live, you'll see that it actually was the goal and focus of this patch.

And my argument is this; what content requires weaving? What content is weaving light attacks required to be effective? Not optimal, effective?

Most dungeon DLC hardmodes. All veteran trials. All veteran trial hardmodes. You may be able to squeeze by not doing it, but if all of the damage dealers aren't doing it, you are just not going to complete that trial.
My dps record is 68k, my buff uptimes are perfect. What isn't perfect is my weaving (I think it was 0.7LA/s). My trial guild had a requirement of 75k dps, so i never made the cut for proper runs and eventually gave up because trying harder than that, while possible, is making my hand hurt which ruins the fun of it.

LAs may be the difference between your parse and your guilds requirements. I wouldnt debate that. What I meant is the actual content itself.

As to dungeon HMs, no, I dont think thats the case. I have done most and about 2/3s of the tris. My weaving average is somewhere in the neighborhood of .15-.3 on average and .4 on the high side. Thats doing comparable numbers to the other DD. We are usually within 5k of each other.

A while back someone posted a parse of +100k without weaving at all. Another posted +90k without them.

I think if ZOS were truly concerned about helping players transition they would shift the focus from the 10-15% damage from weaving to how other players are able to make up much larger differences without them.

I haven't seen any of these parses. Please show them to me. The only dungeon DLC hard mode that immediately comes to mind that can be completed without weaving is Moon Hunter Keep, because the strategy is to kill the boss slowly to keep the ads managable. Bosses with similar anti-burst mechanics would also be possible.
But something like Nerieneth back in the day where your mechanic is a dps check to prevent someone from dying to the blade, the dps check to stop Zaan from oneshotting everyone which is tougher in hardmode, or the secret final boss in Black Drake Villa where you simply die if you do not take care of the ads asap... If you have a specific build that doesn't require LAs to reach 100k dps, then sure. But I wanna see a build like this, because I cannot imagine an "easy mode" existing in this game, mainly because it would have been clickbaited to death by content creators on youtube calling their videos something like "GODLIKE DPS, NO LIGHT ATTACKS REQUIRED?!?!?!"
I think I would have come across that by now, so I can only imagine it's a very complicated dynamic rotation that's hard to master, so not actually an alternative for most people at all. But yeah, please show me a parse of those, because I am not taking anyone's word for it, I wanna see it. I believe that your LA/s in actual content is as low as you claim, mainly because bosses have mechanics and that adds downtime pulling the average down as well, so I would be interested in seeing one of your dummy parses too just for reference.

Agenericname

@Ratzkifal
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/610460/weaving-nerf-good-or-bad/p4
Page 4 of this discussion has the comparison parses. Neither are mine.
I also did one of my own Id be happy to post when I get home, however, it wasnt on the trial dummy. I did particpate in that original discussion, but not a lot. One of the advocates of the removal of LA suggested the same but on a dummy without trial buffs. My results were 56k with and 48k without, iirc.
My parses on the attronarch will show LAs. I dont specifically parse without them usually, but, if you want, and youre on PC/NA, Id be happy to run a dungeon with you.

I didnt say it was easy or easy mode. I dont think the person that generated that parse did either. They used sets that werent dependent on LAs and there was very little time lost between their casts and great uptimes. Im not advertising any build as a god-like-dps build without LAs because quite frankly, in a patch where 130-140k is possible, 100k isnt awesome, but its enough to do content.

Ratzkifal

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I think your suggestion is already unnecessarily complicated.

We know what light attack damage is at right now at the top.
We have a damage standard for spammables.
So we just need to nerf light attack damage and then buff the spammable damage standard by the same amount of dps assuming perfect weaving.

This would keep dps pretty much the same for people who are perfect at weaving and buff anyone who hasn't been weaving before, because light attacks matter less in the grand scheme of things. People with improper weaving will receive a smaller buff but still close the gap towards the top.

There are builds who use HA use only LA or do not use spammable - such builds will get hard nerf.

So it will again be just empowering some part of builds, not real short the gap between players.

Are you talking about PvP here? Because these builds aren't that great in PvE and switching your playstyle to just use a spammable is not actually that difficult, especially with weaving not being mandatory anymore.
The only thing that really needs to be adjusted is werewolf because werewolves are primarily using light attacks, so they could use a damage buff if we go with that approach.
Heavy attack builds are only popular because they are so easy to play, so giving them an alternative (using just a spammable without weaving) should be able to replace this playstyle without issue.
If it's really a big issue then the heavy and light attack buffing sets can get a buff as well so that you can build into that if you want to without anyone being forced to make use of weaving to be effective. That's really no big deal.

In LA point of view other builds even do not exist in PVE ? )))

I am HA player and i play both PVE and PVP.

Some only PVE LA only builds do about 90-100 k dps in some updates to as example.

Yes we have not 140-150 k dps 100k is a limit for such builds but yes we do exist )))

Can you show me a parse of that? Because that honestly sounds hard to believe. You must be using a ton of dots to reach 100k dps if you are playing without a spammable. I know those builds exist, but these are not "LA only" builds. Or are you talking about crystal weapon? Because that's a spammable...

I am more focused on HA builds - but the same fo LA spamming builds too. better look it on youtube.

But with constant changes - we get hurt each update. A lot of our streamers and good players leave the game the same way.

https://youtu.be/G4jg6B9c39A

Hybridization ? La builds get sustain - we get really nothing - but than what ? DPS nerf - who lose damage all lose damage )))

The same way each update )

Sets - nerf - CP - nerf - some thing good nerf again.

This update - lightning stuff - sets - damage all nerfed on pts )))

But ZOS wants better for us )) But why we always lose damage ? )))

Ah, yes. Frenzy. The dummy cheesing skill that loses a lot of effectiveness in actual combat because it disables allied healing and costs health, which you can sustain while hitting a dummy but not while actually being damaged as well. Any build can reach that damage if you have essentially an extra 5-piece bonus active at no cost, so I am not surprised. I'm sure you can reach some high damage numbers in some content but this is definitely not suited for every type of content. But I suppose you have convinced me that these are actually a thing.

Well, my first impulse in regards to builds like these is that they are silly, that I don't like them and they can be dismissed. But it would be hypocritical of me to dismiss these just because I personally dislike them. While I wouldn't address them in the balance patch, I would release a set or CP that lowers direct damage and increases damage over time as an olive branch (lightning staff heavy attacks are damage over time), so you can optimize that way if you like, without forcing anyone into this playstyle or making changes around this niche that would negatively affect others. The fact of the matter is most people don't play this way.
If you show me a video like that for a build using LA I can think about what I would do to adress these, but the first thing I can think of would be to buff the CP that increases LA damage, which makes sense anyway if my original suggestion was to lower LA damage across the board and buff spammable damage accordingly.

Ratzkifal

Agenericname wrote: »

@Ratzkifal
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/610460/weaving-nerf-good-or-bad/p4
Page 4 of this discussion has the comparison parses. Neither are mine.
I also did one of my own Id be happy to post when I get home, however, it wasnt on the trial dummy. I did particpate in that original discussion, but not a lot. One of the advocates of the removal of LA suggested the same but on a dummy without trial buffs. My results were 56k with and 48k without, iirc.
My parses on the attronarch will show LAs. I dont specifically parse without them usually, but, if you want, and youre on PC/NA, Id be happy to run a dungeon with you.

I didnt say it was easy or easy mode. I dont think the person that generated that parse did either. They used sets that werent dependent on LAs and there was very little time lost between their casts and great uptimes. Im not advertising any build as a god-like-dps build without LAs because quite frankly, in a patch where 130-140k is possible, 100k isnt awesome, but its enough to do content.

Yeah, that was my guess, some type of incredibly dot heavy build with what is likely a very difficult rotation. Necros buff all dots so it makes sense for it to be on one. I am guessing the other sets used there other than Pillar of Nirn and Harpooner's Wading kilt is something like Deadly Strikes or even Blood Drinker. But in all fairness it's not quite the same build because that person is running Relequen on the parse with LAs unless the parse without LAs is actually not with Deadly Strikes but with Relequen... which would really blow my mind. Good on that guy. Maybe I should give that build a try, since I was never able to reach that dps... No wait, ZOS is nerfing Necro passive next patch, god damnit! xD

But yeah, if you are using a build like that, you don't need LAs for content at all. But not everyone has the option to use this build as it seems to be very specific to Necros, so I would still say that weaving is generally required for this content and that only exceptional builds can do without. I'm not sure Sorcerers have that option for example and Templars definitely do not (on the PTS they do, but that's not a fun world to be in). I'm also curious how this build would fare in real combat situations and 4man setups due to the lack of available buffs, but I'm sure it won't fall off enough for it to matter. Cool stuff.

That just makes it more weird ZOS is so dead set on reducing what "the ceiling" is capable off, when they could simply try to buff niche playstyles to be more effective. It's probably harder than it sounds, but these sweeping changes are breaking too much. It doesn't help that they nerfed Oakensoul the way they did. I liked the suggestion of adding Major Slayer to it just to keep it strong in PvE without affecting PvP.

Agenericname

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

@Ratzkifal
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/610460/weaving-nerf-good-or-bad/p4
Page 4 of this discussion has the comparison parses. Neither are mine.
I also did one of my own Id be happy to post when I get home, however, it wasnt on the trial dummy. I did particpate in that original discussion, but not a lot. One of the advocates of the removal of LA suggested the same but on a dummy without trial buffs. My results were 56k with and 48k without, iirc.
My parses on the attronarch will show LAs. I dont specifically parse without them usually, but, if you want, and youre on PC/NA, Id be happy to run a dungeon with you.

I didnt say it was easy or easy mode. I dont think the person that generated that parse did either. They used sets that werent dependent on LAs and there was very little time lost between their casts and great uptimes. Im not advertising any build as a god-like-dps build without LAs because quite frankly, in a patch where 130-140k is possible, 100k isnt awesome, but its enough to do content.

Yeah, that was my guess, some type of incredibly dot heavy build with what is likely a very difficult rotation. Necros buff all dots so it makes sense for it to be on one. I am guessing the other sets used there other than Pillar of Nirn and Harpooner's Wading kilt is something like Deadly Strikes or even Blood Drinker. But in all fairness it's not quite the same build because that person is running Relequen on the parse with LAs unless the parse without LAs is actually not with Deadly Strikes but with Relequen... which would really blow my mind. Good on that guy. Maybe I should give that build a try, since I was never able to reach that dps... No wait, ZOS is nerfing Necro passive next patch, god damnit! xD

But yeah, if you are using a build like that, you don't need LAs for content at all. But not everyone has the option to use this build as it seems to be very specific to Necros, so I would still say that weaving is generally required for this content and that only exceptional builds can do without. I'm not sure Sorcerers have that option for example and Templars definitely do not (on the PTS they do, but that's not a fun world to be in). I'm also curious how this build would fare in real combat situations and 4man setups due to the lack of available buffs, but I'm sure it won't fall off enough for it to matter. Cool stuff.

That just makes it more weird ZOS is so dead set on reducing what "the ceiling" is capable off, when they could simply try to buff niche playstyles to be more effective. It's probably harder than it sounds, but these sweeping changes are breaking too much. It doesn't help that they nerfed Oakensoul the way they did. I liked the suggestion of adding Major Slayer to it just to keep it strong in PvE without affecting PvP.

The difference in the sets was intentional, from what I understand. In a later thread they mention it. Choosing a set(s) that didnt rely on LAs was part of the reason it worked. I have personally seen several parses where a person would wear sets that relied heavily on weaving on LAs and wonder why their damage wasnt as high as they had hoped when they started missing them. They may have been better off choosing sets that didnt invest so heavily into them in the first place.

I play templar mostly. I think its one of the more forgiving classes when it comes to LAs until you get into the really competitive content. For dungeons sets like War Maiden and Deadly pair well together. War Maiden buffs everything but wall, trap, and light attacks on a magplar.

In four person content I think a lot depends on the healer and tank, and sometimes other DD. The healers contribution to the groups damage can be significant. Major slayer and major courage are nice. Even if the tank isnt using a fancy set, they can take a pair of light armor wearing DDs to just under pen cap by being there and poking stuff. By the time you add turning tide youre giving/getting some great buffs. It all adds up.

I agree with the sweeping changes. Theyre exhausting.