The common theme is "misconceptions".

Bat

A common theme among those who jump for joy, PVP minority excluded because there are a few fair points (e.g. zerg healing becoming less overpowered should these changes go through to live, which I sincerely hope can be avoided), that I've noticed, is that those who are the most cheerful about suggested changes, also seem to be the most clueless about what this game's combat system is, even at a rudimentary level.

I'm going to have a look at some common misconceptions, this turned into a long post so thanks if you read it (paraphrased, common sentiments remain intact);

"DPS is too high when some people can skip mechanics by having high DPS"

This seems to be built around envy, and for that reason it's on a fallacious footing. There are also numerous examples where mechanics can be "skipped" without deploying burn strats, I'll mention one of them towards the end of this paragraph - this should show that the point made with DPS being too high when mechanics can be skipped by DPS racing, is moot at best.

I think of calls to nerf DPS because of high DPS meaning possibility to skip certain mechanics, as synonymous to suggesting ZOS should put a wall up at the waterfall in Fungal Grotto so no one can skip the Dreugh/Spider lady boss, both of which serve no purpose for completing the content of either dungeons. If a group has high enough DPS to ignore a mechanic, which in essence serves no purpose to be "played" against, then all the more power to them - why in the world should it be a concern of anyone that others are able to skip a few mechanics in the game in favour of mangling past them? It shouldn't, unless the concern you have stems from envy. You can still play against mechanics, if you want to or need to.

Let's look at a couple examples;

Maligalig (in veteran hard mode difficulty Coral Aerie)

This boss fight involves two phases of a maelstrom mechanic in which players have to go up on platforms and kill a spectral yagra enemy on all three platforms. The mechanic which needs to be taken into consideration here is a debuff that starts building up on group members from the moment they set foot on one platform, and which eventually leads to a one shot unless countered by either killing the spectral yagra on the platform quick enough, or by going back in the maelstrom, and depending on strategy deployed either going up on the next platform or the second next platform, because the debuff will wear off during the time players are in the water. If your group has high enough damage to skip on having to debuff from one platform to the next, what harm is there in that for any other group that lacks that DPS? None - the mechanic can still be cleared by using the latter strategy.

Let's also look at the burn strat (potion skip) on Plague Concoctor Mortieu in Scalecaller Peak. If the tank fails to stand on top of vents, the group will likely wipe - that's the entire mechanic that needs to be played against during that fight. All damage and debuff coming from other sources in this fight are of negligible importance for most groups - you don't even have to be "high end DPS" to deploy a burn strat on this, having high DPS only means the burn strat will take less time to reach the clear with. This strat is more of a heal check (if anything); simply focus only the boss (and tank makes sure to taunt his assistant when he comes out) and the fight takes a lot less time than if you were to go around killing adds and making potions during it.

Let's also look at another example of a mechanic skip where you don't need high DPS to skip some of its mechanics; Ondagore the Mad in Unhallowed Grave. You can skip the recurrence of a specific mechanic during this fight, simply by leaving one of the stagnant healer wraiths alive. This prevents the phase where entire group has to grapple out to platforms and kill archers from recurring.

Honorable mention: Shipwright's Regret final hard mode - you can as a group either choose to kill both the hulks in the second hulk phase, or tab target the boss himself and ignore damaging the hulks (tank taunts them though, of course). This strategy is actually preferable for all DPS ranges (even though certain guides on the internet will want you to believe different), granted you've cleared the Nazaray HM prior to this fight. Either way you go about this, the two hulks are a mechanic which you can deal with in a number of ways depending on your group composition and what you reckon will be better for your group.

Skips can rather more objectively be described as, variation on strategy.

As we can see, "skips" are possible even without high DPS, this would be my main reflection on this idea that DPS must be nerfed because it allows certain players to "skip" certain mechanics.

"Light Attack Weaving is bad because people with disabilities can't do it, and because content requires it they are punished out of clears because of disabilities"

It's not bad, it's actually quite engaging and fun once you get the hang of it, and I would wager most people with physical disabilities can do it, if not to a full extent then at least to some extent, it's condescending to suggest that weaving is some sort of superhuman feat which disabled people can't accomplish - but even if you literally can not (in which case, respectfully, more challenging content might not be your forte in any game), you can in theory still squeeze out decent enough damage with a good enough build and rotation to clear practically most content in the game, save for a couple rather niche examples of e.g. trial trifectas.

I literally have early onset arthritis, and I weave just fine (LAs are at ≤0.1 in most cases - some abilities I weave into better, some worse, but I'd wager it's safe to say it's normal to not get great LA weaves on all your abilities, unless you use macros, which of course you should not because it's disallowed) - how you go about setting your game keybinds up help a long way in this regard. I play with a controller as to not have to sit up at a desk - just this small change in how I interact with the game makes a huge difference in any levels of pain that I experience - even mitigating the risks if not entirely, then close to entirely. I will have days on which I don't feel well and on those days I also know to not push myself - personal responsibility actually is a thing to emphasize, and I don't think it can be emphasized enough; if you don't feel well playing a game or doing certain content within that game, you should not. It's really as simple as that.

On the point that content requires weaving, in most cases no, it does not. Weaving DPS possibilities for specific classes (because it's important to distinguish between possibilities per class, I think this is often overlooked in some comments and the end result of what is stated in those comments becomes an over-generalization and inherently misleading for that reason) will only grant clears to some very niche examples, but let's look at a recent less-than-niche example to illustrate why suggested combat system changes aren't going to help with any of that.

You might not clear the DPS check on Nazaray's hard mode if either your rotation consists of abilities that are too weak, or if your weaving is too weak, or if you fail to put your abilities down in a consistent and tight enough manner - that is already the case, and it will only be even more pronounced if the suggested changes go through. Which means, the problem here lies more in how some more recent content is designed, than in how >100k DDs play their builds - this isn't a mechanic that can be "skipped" by having great DPS (almost no mechanics can, mechanics are mechanics and need to be cleared, more often by the way they are designed than by having high enough DPS; but the fact remains, some DPS checks exist). Nerfing LAs, HAs, and simultaneously nerfing DOTs, is going to mean the diametrical opposite of what some people seem to think it will.

What this comes down to is, players who struggle clearing veteran content, aren't struggling to clear because they can not LA weave - their struggle instead is putting enough abilities down in a consistent enough manner under the pressure of mechanics so that those mechanics can be cleared. The suggested changes will literally not change this problem for the better, but they might very well instead exacerbate it. You will now have a 20 second time frame during which you can add more DOTs before circling back to your initial DOT, or choose to just spam something in between reapplying it. But your DOTs now also instead deal significantly less damage, and the DPS checks, where they exist, will be even further away on the horizon for you. Your tank in Banished Cells 2 will now instead have to juggle 20 Daedroths instead of just the 10 if you want those 2 keys (actually this might be one of the better and more readily accessible examples of how and where these changes will hurt a lot, because of how Rilis keeps jumping around - say "Bye bye!" to your DOTs entirely in that fight). Your healer in veteran Kyne's Aegis will now sweat 2 times more and question their own proficiency as a healer with increased frequency as people keep dying to the left and right of Falgravn, even though they put down all the HOTs their bars can hold, maybe they should just go back to healing FG1?

To conclude, light attack weaving adds a certain oomph to any rotation, that much is true - it isn't, however, the end-all-be-all in terms of having enough damage to clear most of the game's content - not taking the time to build right is a much greater obstacle and it isn't going to be leveled by the proposed changes but they will likely instead exacerbate the problems. Which leads me to the next misconception.

"Difficult content will now be more accessible for me as a lower--to-mid range DPS"

I can't begin to see where this sentiment makes sense. Unless they also change how all enemies in the entire game behave, and make them all just as stagnant as Oraneth from Elden Hollow 1, this sentiment is questionable. You will still have to reapply DOTs under pressure of mechanics. You will still have to clear eventual DPS checks. You will still have to interrupt or evade attacks that build up to one shots. You will still have to manage self healing and shielding from incoming damage in solo content.

The difference is that your damage output will be even lower than it currently is, and for that reason Pale Order will not work as well for you, and you will have to manage your resources much more carefully, and you will have to walk enemies back and forth through your AOEs for a much longer duration because they will apply much less damage, and you also will not deal as much damage with your light and heavy attacks, so overall, how exactly is this going to help? The only conclusion you should come to is, that this won't help you if you already struggle. It will literally make it more difficult for those who struggle, and more tedious for those who do not.

"I'm just glad that those sweaty DPS who can achieve more than I, now won't be able to huehuehue "

This sentiment comes up with less frequency than previous misconceptions and of course it's difficult to tell whether the sentiment is truly held or just ill-conceived attempts at making light of a bad situation (or something only malicious or non-constructive), but it does come up and it is nonetheless a misconception; ZOS will of course evaluate and readjust content in accordance, and the better performing groups will still be the ones that can achieve more than the groups who perform worse. And that's the way it should be, should it not? Making progress, feeling like progress is rewarding, feeling rewarded for making progress, should be at the core of every gaming experience leading up to an end game environment.

I don't envy Godslayers for being Godslayers, even though I don't think I'll ever be considered for joining a progression core group, but I will say I take pity on those who are so flustered by the fact there are better players than them and who are so petty that the only reason they are happy with these changes is that they would hurt other players and their capacity for achieving personal progress and reaching goals.

I don't think people who share the above paraphrased sentiment will be just so happy if the changes go through to live; having quests take double the time because trash packs will take minutes to clear each, just won't be fun. I know for certain I feel rewarded killing trash packs when they die without having to pull an entire rotation on them; I put in the time and effort to build towards having a less tedious time in the game and I sure hope all that time spent won't be for naught. I want my trash in the bin pronto.

I think a more fair and balanced path would be to look at where things are unfair and/or give certain people unfair advantages; for example I know casuals often are happy to be casual - making their questing take double the time because they won't bother to build more efficient damage output is unfair but that's what these proposed changes will achieve. Preventing them from looting world bosses (especially during events) because they don' t deal "enough damage", is unfair and prevents them from obtaining items they might need or want (also especially true in new zones or zones where items have been added to daily rewards), and also I think this longstanding "rule" has lent hands in promoting widespread envy - entirely unnecessarily! I don't think I've spoken to anyone who disagreed with my sentiment that overland bosses should drop for anyone who hits them period. So what if someone comes along and just presses a light attack to get some loot, lol. An overhaul on to how some of those things work, would be received with less scorn from across the board I reckon.

I think it would be more fair to have some sort of gear/skill check system on grouping with randoms for content, than it is now - people who are just dipping their toes in veteran content are constantly being showed that bad behavior is rampant and often times isn't even handled with a kick when votes are initiated, leading to widespread misconceptions about game difficulty and group role requirements. Fake tanks who don't taunt, fake healers who tell the other DDs that keep dying to just do an entire rebuild on the fly while preventing them to do so by continuing to attack enemies, it's much too often a very toxic environment at the moment to create a constructive environment for learning proper team play, and it creates unreasonable expectations in both inexperienced players and on content for those who learn by those fakers who went in with their solo build equipped from the start - oh this other DD who keeps dying is bad, I should listen to this healer who keeps alive, content is too easy or too hard, no one needs proper roles, et cetera. And then BAM they are slapped in the face when coming to actual content where it matters and they have no idea why because they were being carried or prevented to clear with because of randoms who faked their roles.

I also think it would be more fair to bridge the gaps by implementing numerous tutorials rather than bringing everyone down to levels where even finding a PUG for a non-HM vSS or similar would require lengthy application forms. There could be class and role specific tutorials - with repeatable quest stages where people had a need for it! So even if you complete a tutorial, you could revisit it and your NPC helper would say something like "Oh hey, it's nice to see you again! Did you want to go over some concepts of X role for your class again?" and you could choose the parts you wanted some help with again and play through it again to recap on existing knowledge or acquire new should you want to make something else for your character.

Say, DOTs, for example. A tutorial to help players understand how DOT implementation on a rotation can help bring DPS up could be very useful - longer DOTs earlier in a rotation as you'd circle back to them later on your rotation.

A tutorial showing how to light attack weave for DPS would be helpful, I think it would also be helpful to explain that weaving is not an end-all-be-all for damage dealing but that it will provide some extra kick to your character's output. Having a set value where your quest stage would advance, say you manage to weave with at least 0.5 into a single ability X times in a row.

A tutorial showing how to HOT and burst heal, with a quest stage having to perform such a feat on a target.

A tutorial showing how to taunt enemies, crowd control, chain in adds.

These tutorials would be optional - but could assign tags to character. Characters with these tags could be put in queues with each other, and characters who don't have this tag could be put in queues with each other - they would queue for the same basic content but the latter would play slightly nerfed versions of the content - with nerfed hard modes too! And get 2 keys if that was their goal. Or acquire the monster head piece they wanted but didn't find groups that could pull through because of fakers. The achievements would be the same, too, to some extent - this could make content more fair and balanced, and making some stuff more attainable to and in tune with people with physical or psychological disadvantages, without causing a feeling in those who already can clear such content that they are being punished for playing at a proficient level.

I've been in enough random groups to know that many players are just randomly firing off abilities if they even remember they have abilities. I can carry on the DPS through such random groups, maybe not for hard modes but it depends on the content itself. With these proposed changes, I just wouldn't bother because the gap would be too wide and the workload too heavy.

I think it would be more fair if instead of burning down the house, ZOS really took this opportunity to listen to their end game player base - those of us who have the most experience with the game, and said "Alright, we'll not go through with these changes at this point in time because your criticisms are not only heard, but we also acknowledge they hold considerable weight, and we value your input on this as experienced consumers of our product."

I apologize if there were any errors in this text. If anyone has some more examples of misconceptions they want to address that might be pertinent to mention in these turbulent times, feel free.

Mr_Stach

I really think that a "Dojo System" would be beneficial.

FF14 has this and it teaches you how to do basically every aspect of your Role before you are able to go and do dungeons. I'm not saying that Zos should do a straight Copy and Paste, but instead of dumbing down and simplifying systems patch after patch, give the players the tools to be successful, don't lower the bar.

Galiferno

I think the most important thing people need to understand is that everyone's DPS will go down. So those players parsing in the 70-80k range and barely getting into certain vet content will parse lower and may be turned away from runs. I see people complaining about strict DPS requirements for trials, and now if those requirements are kept the same or even lowered, some people will no longer qualify even if their parsing ability is the same. Weaving's damage was nerfed, but some of the best sets like Rele, Kinras, Tzog, AY, etc will still require weaving, in other words, weaving isn't going anywhere and is still completely required for vet content. If you weren't being considered for runs before, now your dps is going to be even worse, and you definitely won't be considered when you post a new, lower parse. So what exactly is there to celebrate? The good players will now be even more desired for runs and will still get in. Average and improving players will be looked on with skepticism and turned away more.

adamsmith42

@ZOS_GinaBruno you listening?

Tannus15

Great write up @Bat

I cannot stress enough how much dps is being lost if things go live as they are now. with the current sets my dps is back to pre summerset levels. 40k to 45k on the 3m dummy.

On live i'm doing 55k+ depending on setup.

The buffs to the 21m dummy they added this update are very strong and are doing a lot to mask how hard we have been hit. I honestly don't think I could clear vSS HM portals with the current level of dps.

I don't know what they are thinking, but this will utterly destroy progression trial groups.

starkerealm

Bat wrote: »

"Difficult content will now be more accessible for me as a lower--to-mid range DPS"

I can't begin to see where this sentiment makes sense.

It doesn't make sense, but it was what they were told to expect. I've seen a strong correlation for this one with players who haven't been on the PTS, or seriously processed what the balance changes were doing. It's very much a case of, "I was told this is how it would work, so this is what it must be."