Maintenance for the week of January 27:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – January 27
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – January 27
We will be performing maintenance for patch 10.3.2 on the PTS on Monday at 8:00AM EST (13:00 UTC).
Guide for ZOS, how to make balance:
JustAGoodPlayer
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I do not think, that some one really read it and my english is bad, but - i'll try 
First of all, lets think what we want to make.
I want stable MMO game with good PVE and PVP part where me and a lot of good players be happy.
How to make it ? First we need to decide what is core of the game ! What must balance be based on !
In some MMO - it is just logick of real world, in some - i do not know may be heavy drugs. But TESO is game about elders scrolls - and I know nothing about it, because I did not play any TES games before this
But for the MMO like this, it have to - as i think - be based on TES lore !
I do not know nothing about it, but you have LOR master for this.
To balance LOR based MMO - you need to think, how PVP will be balanced first !!! Than you can easely do all other balances, including good PVE.
TESO has race:
Imperial
Nord
Elf
High elf
Dark elf
Argonian
Breton
...
What is specialization of races based on LOR ?
I do not know - but as example NORDS - big guys.
Just based on logick - what do big guy have ? He has a lot of streanth ! He has good protection and HP. But it is harder to move if you are big, so no stamina bonus as example.
As example Redgard - more agille, more sustainable - no HP bonus.
Do in real fight STR make hit harder ? Yes.
Do agility and techniques do it too ? Yes.
So both this parametrs need to work on damage of skills and proc sets, or be removed from proc sets at all !
As example - when you fire gun you get backstrike. If you are big or more agill you will strike more accurate than if you are like barbie as example.
When you have some logick behind thingth - it will be possible to balance it !
Now about Ally - if Races are not fraction lock - player who take the RACE with max damage stats and go to ALLY with all TANK races will be OP !
Do you want to do some thing about it ?
So you make ally balanced as 1 tank/dd/healer race each - or give hard counterplay skills against it !
As example we have 3 fractions - more tank/more dd /more sustain.
More DD race is more easy to wipe. How to protect from invis ? Give some skills to detect. Make invis skills less powerfull.
How to make TANK ally killable ? Add combos, dots and etc.
So first you make core base and do not rework or remove or delete it each time - but add a way of how to counterplay some skills/sets and etc.
You make a direct task what you want to do and make this task.
As example: High difference between players.
It is MMO - and it is normal for player of 1600 CP be stronger than 100 CP, if 100 CP player is more skilled - it is good if he would have chance against lower skilled 1600CP as example !
But how to do it ? If player player plays better - he is smarter, faster, or more task based than other player. More task based - more level. Faster - press button fast. More smarter - do clewer engeneering hard builds.
It is normal ! Next.
Will you force players play only 1 strict way ? I think no. So you add a lot of ways to counter different thingth. And this ways have to really work !
Then you balance skills - do all players need to do near the same damage in PVE ? Yes you want it be playable !
What options do you have ? You have sets/skills/LA/HA/Bash.
If player do rotation like
( Skill+bash+la+skill ) is it harder than press la+ skill ? Yes !
How much do he make with it ? 1-2 k DPS more !
So you already decided that 1 more fast action - makes 1-2 k more DPS than just skills !
So player who only press skill1/skill2 ... do as example 100k DPS.
Player who do LA+skill/ or LA+bash = 102 k damage.
LA + skill+bash = 104 k damage.
What to do with HA ?
Player of sustained race have LESS damage, but no problems with sustain !
So make his HA hits harder and do HA based builds hit ass sustained race on skill with out la and bash ! But make their HA hits a little harder.
So all HA builds will hit the same ! Sustained more with HA, more DD race with skills.
As example HA based build = 100k DPS.
And (HA + LA) based build = 101k DPS with no problems with sustain !
HA is more problematick - it cast it moves slower, it can not block when cast = more dangerous gameplay but high concentration on what happens near them.
LA gameplay - hit buttons faster. More DPS, lose resources.
Only skills gameplay - can permoblock =lose resources but more save.
LA+HA+Skill = good sustain, normal damage, normall all aspects.
As example you have sets that balance sustain and WPD of group. It is no reason to make HA players lose to much damage !
Stamina players lose stamina on hit, so can not permablock, give 2+ k dps to them.
And for melee classes + 2 k dps when in melee range.
Balance all achivments to be possible to close on 90-95k DPS and make 100k DPS on only skill with no la/ha achivable on 1200 CP.
By passive stars as example.
Next give active skills to CP, that work like classes skills. Players are limited by panel bar limit, but getting unique skills from CP make character - more unique and strong.
As example - DK has no PET, Templar - no pet.
Give fire atronach girl to CP. So all can have pets !
So sorc can use 3 pets - if he wants. It will be lose of 6 slots for skills, so may be it will not be effective, but cool !
Or may be it is better to make pet be in 1 only slot and be summoned for all the time untill you desummon it with the same skill ? It may be can be good idea too by the way. But than they have to be untargetable on the players choise in their menu, to prevent players from pet problems.
Then you make classes:
What is sorc - it is mage !
What is DK - fire mage. But with close range skills.
So some skills have to be the same.
Wings - what do wings do ? Animals fly with it ! Sorc fly with streak, so why not to make it the same like skill ? May be less ranged powerfull but with some cool effect ?
Than you think - how range class to counter it ? Chain it to yourself or push back with some skill.
Thats how balance work !
Than you take Night Blade.
Based on games LOR - what is invisiability ? Are they full invisible, do they make sounds when invisible ?
Can they stand in lava, fire AOE when invisible ? When they lose blood are the blood they lose invisible too ?
Thats how you can balance invisiability skill ! To work it good. And not to be OP !
If some player is to unkillable, you can make skills and sets against parts of that build. So you have always have options what to do.
But not to remake game core each update !!!
Now base core is bad and balance is bad !
CP, classes rework, and all other changes was a mistake.
To make good balance you need base game core on some logick - as example logick and games LOR.
Or the game will become only worse !
I do not know LOR, but you have LOR master. Base balance on LOR is not hard, if you say what you want to do it is not hard to balance, you can even ask players about it !
But now not players not may be even you it looks like do not understand what you want to do )))
Edited by JustAGoodPlayer on July 13, 2022 11:53AM First of all, lets think what we want to make.
I want stable MMO game with good PVE and PVP part where me and a lot of good players be happy.
How to make it ? First we need to decide what is core of the game ! What must balance be based on !
In some MMO - it is just logick of real world, in some - i do not know may be heavy drugs. But TESO is game about elders scrolls - and I know nothing about it, because I did not play any TES games before this
But for the MMO like this, it have to - as i think - be based on TES lore !
I do not know nothing about it, but you have LOR master for this.
To balance LOR based MMO - you need to think, how PVP will be balanced first !!! Than you can easely do all other balances, including good PVE.
TESO has race:
Imperial
Nord
Elf
High elf
Dark elf
Argonian
Breton
...
What is specialization of races based on LOR ?
I do not know - but as example NORDS - big guys.
Just based on logick - what do big guy have ? He has a lot of streanth ! He has good protection and HP. But it is harder to move if you are big, so no stamina bonus as example.
As example Redgard - more agille, more sustainable - no HP bonus.
Do in real fight STR make hit harder ? Yes.
Do agility and techniques do it too ? Yes.
So both this parametrs need to work on damage of skills and proc sets, or be removed from proc sets at all !
As example - when you fire gun you get backstrike. If you are big or more agill you will strike more accurate than if you are like barbie as example.
When you have some logick behind thingth - it will be possible to balance it !
Now about Ally - if Races are not fraction lock - player who take the RACE with max damage stats and go to ALLY with all TANK races will be OP !
Do you want to do some thing about it ?
So you make ally balanced as 1 tank/dd/healer race each - or give hard counterplay skills against it !
As example we have 3 fractions - more tank/more dd /more sustain.
More DD race is more easy to wipe. How to protect from invis ? Give some skills to detect. Make invis skills less powerfull.
How to make TANK ally killable ? Add combos, dots and etc.
So first you make core base and do not rework or remove or delete it each time - but add a way of how to counterplay some skills/sets and etc.
You make a direct task what you want to do and make this task.
As example: High difference between players.
It is MMO - and it is normal for player of 1600 CP be stronger than 100 CP, if 100 CP player is more skilled - it is good if he would have chance against lower skilled 1600CP as example !
But how to do it ? If player player plays better - he is smarter, faster, or more task based than other player. More task based - more level. Faster - press button fast. More smarter - do clewer engeneering hard builds.
It is normal ! Next.
Will you force players play only 1 strict way ? I think no. So you add a lot of ways to counter different thingth. And this ways have to really work !
Then you balance skills - do all players need to do near the same damage in PVE ? Yes you want it be playable !
What options do you have ? You have sets/skills/LA/HA/Bash.
If player do rotation like
( Skill+bash+la+skill ) is it harder than press la+ skill ? Yes !
How much do he make with it ? 1-2 k DPS more !
So you already decided that 1 more fast action - makes 1-2 k more DPS than just skills !
So player who only press skill1/skill2 ... do as example 100k DPS.
Player who do LA+skill/ or LA+bash = 102 k damage.
LA + skill+bash = 104 k damage.
What to do with HA ?
Player of sustained race have LESS damage, but no problems with sustain !
So make his HA hits harder and do HA based builds hit ass sustained race on skill with out la and bash ! But make their HA hits a little harder.
So all HA builds will hit the same ! Sustained more with HA, more DD race with skills.
As example HA based build = 100k DPS.
And (HA + LA) based build = 101k DPS with no problems with sustain !
HA is more problematick - it cast it moves slower, it can not block when cast = more dangerous gameplay but high concentration on what happens near them.
LA gameplay - hit buttons faster. More DPS, lose resources.
Only skills gameplay - can permoblock =lose resources but more save.
LA+HA+Skill = good sustain, normal damage, normall all aspects.
As example you have sets that balance sustain and WPD of group. It is no reason to make HA players lose to much damage !
Stamina players lose stamina on hit, so can not permablock, give 2+ k dps to them.
And for melee classes + 2 k dps when in melee range.
Balance all achivments to be possible to close on 90-95k DPS and make 100k DPS on only skill with no la/ha achivable on 1200 CP.
By passive stars as example.
Next give active skills to CP, that work like classes skills. Players are limited by panel bar limit, but getting unique skills from CP make character - more unique and strong.
As example - DK has no PET, Templar - no pet.
Give fire atronach girl to CP. So all can have pets !
So sorc can use 3 pets - if he wants. It will be lose of 6 slots for skills, so may be it will not be effective, but cool !
Or may be it is better to make pet be in 1 only slot and be summoned for all the time untill you desummon it with the same skill ? It may be can be good idea too by the way. But than they have to be untargetable on the players choise in their menu, to prevent players from pet problems.
Then you make classes:
What is sorc - it is mage !
What is DK - fire mage. But with close range skills.
So some skills have to be the same.
Wings - what do wings do ? Animals fly with it ! Sorc fly with streak, so why not to make it the same like skill ? May be less ranged powerfull but with some cool effect ?
Than you think - how range class to counter it ? Chain it to yourself or push back with some skill.
Thats how balance work !
Than you take Night Blade.
Based on games LOR - what is invisiability ? Are they full invisible, do they make sounds when invisible ?
Can they stand in lava, fire AOE when invisible ? When they lose blood are the blood they lose invisible too ?
Thats how you can balance invisiability skill ! To work it good. And not to be OP !
If some player is to unkillable, you can make skills and sets against parts of that build. So you have always have options what to do.
But not to remake game core each update !!!
Now base core is bad and balance is bad !
CP, classes rework, and all other changes was a mistake.
To make good balance you need base game core on some logick - as example logick and games LOR.
Or the game will become only worse !
I do not know LOR, but you have LOR master. Base balance on LOR is not hard, if you say what you want to do it is not hard to balance, you can even ask players about it !
But now not players not may be even you it looks like do not understand what you want to do )))
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Klingenlied✭✭✭✭You can not balance games on lore. Adding flavor? Yea, that is possible. But for balance? You balance using brains, thus math, to calculate how strong monster hp and damage is vs player hp and damage to optimally make for a fun, engaging and challenging experience.
Of course math only does never work because there will be classes that are maybe more difficult to use or synergize then others. Thus, you needa manually adjust for the gaming reality human players do create.
Where ESO does fail however is starting at the very first top priority.
Fun, enganging and challenging experience. Part of what makes games fun is that games can look awesome, animations looking clean, combat having impact. There is almost none of it in ESO unless you enter at least veteran content. And even there you can ask yourself: is it really fun to move through the same rotation over and over again with what separates you from other players primarily being better at "weaving", meaning over and over pressing light attack just before skill activation? Plain and simple - feels bad.
But even when I dismiss this and take it as it is: We have got decent balance with some outliers. Fixing those would be enough to keep players happy. The planned changes will hammer some classes into the ground in a unprecedented manner, not able to be explained with math or logic alone. We will have huge dps disparity between classes. We will have a significantly harder game for intermediate players in veteran content. New players actually won't really be affected for some time. Base game and story content is too easy to realize any of this.
The issue though is scaring old players away. The current patch has the potential to scare away even chill casual players that might find themselves suddenly struggling in vet dungeons or other content. Cripple raid progression. Or just really anger people because what is worse then destroying progression on a level that does actually set your power back YEARS. That's crazy.2 -
JustAGoodPlayer✭✭✭✭Klingenlied wrote: »You can not balance games on lore. Adding flavor? Yea, that is possible. But for balance? You balance using brains, thus math, to calculate how strong monster hp and damage is vs player hp and damage to optimally make for a fun, engaging and challenging experience.
Of course math only does never work because there will be classes that are maybe more difficult to use or synergize then others. Thus, you needa manually adjust for the gaming reality human players do create.
Where ESO does fail however is starting at the very first top priority.
Fun, enganging and challenging experience. Part of what makes games fun is that games can look awesome, animations looking clean, combat having impact. There is almost none of it in ESO unless you enter at least veteran content. And even there you can ask yourself: is it really fun to move through the same rotation over and over again with what separates you from other players primarily being better at "weaving", meaning over and over pressing light attack just before skill activation? Plain and simple - feels bad.
But even when I dismiss this and take it as it is: We have got decent balance with some outliers. Fixing those would be enough to keep players happy. The planned changes will hammer some classes into the ground in a unprecedented manner, not able to be explained with math or logic alone. We will have huge dps disparity between classes. We will have a significantly harder game for intermediate players in veteran content. New players actually won't really be affected for some time. Base game and story content is too easy to realize any of this.
The issue though is scaring old players away. The current patch has the potential to scare away even chill casual players that might find themselves suddenly struggling in vet dungeons or other content. Cripple raid progression. Or just really anger people because what is worse then destroying progression on a level that does actually set your power back YEARS. That's crazy.
You balance thingth on some thing - on some idea. And than you calculate how much power some thing have to have to all this system work.
To make game you need the full clear idea first of what you are doing.
If you have such idea - you can show it.As example post it to players of what they try to do. And we can see it.
As example - we want all damage be near same. After that we test it - like now, damage drops but not the same, so the first plan was not achived. So other change needed. It was bad solution, as example.
If you want game be fun - it have to be good skills and strong abilitys. On each class ! Not garbage skills and classes with unique skills. Such ability have to have counterplay.
Not nerfing everything each patch !Edited by JustAGoodPlayer on July 13, 2022 12:01PM0 -
Toxic_Hemlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭I myself would just be happy if they used a jewelers hammer and made minor adjustment to see things play out when and where needed...
Using a sledgehammer and totally upending the player/sets/abilities every few months is asinine and "might" just be the reason so many are upset!0 -
JustAGoodPlayer✭✭✭✭I do not see why for them it is a problem, it is very easy to balance. The same how players look for OP sets - it all can be balanced.
But i do not think that game will be interesting.
So balance PVE dps is a good change. Than give each class strong skills that you give a counter to all class and balance PVP this way is a good change.
I do not even understand now, what they are trying to make. What is a task to do ?
How they want it to work, what is a idea of all this.
It looks like no idea, so it is just change skill numbers that is not based on any idea.
If they look for numbers a lot of players can say this numbers even with out changes in this PTS updates. Because they the same way looks OP builds for self. They already know a lot of this values.
If it is to make different players to be OP and happy some patch - they are not, to much changes. Better some think more balanced with less changes.
So i do not even understand a reason behind this.Edited by JustAGoodPlayer on July 13, 2022 3:29PM0