What U35 should have been and what went wrong

Vylaera

I actually understand what ZOS was thinking, I figured it out.

ZOS Identified what separates the Low Tier from the Mid, and the Mid Tier from the High. And then nerfed things specifically to make the gaps narrower. The problem is that, as a consequence, damage has reduced across the board. This was and still is avoidable.

So to start out, I'm going to briefly identify what primarily causes the gaps between the three tiers.


The gap between the Low Tier and the Mid Tier is effectiveness in weaving, primarily.
The Low Tier either doesn't know how to weave or isn't good at it. The Mid Tier has a solid grasp on it.

So, ZOS nerfed the effectiveness of weaving to narrow the gap between the Low Tier and Mid Tier.

This is solution is flawed and the better solution would be to implement a tutorial that you're required to go through the first time you join the Undaunted that teaches you the fundamentals of weaving, not standing stupid, using synergies, the differences and nuances of Spammables, DOTs, and AOEs, as well as how to fill a DPS, Tank, or Healer role effectively.


Moving on, the gap between the Mid Tier and the High Tier is how well the High Tier is able to utilize the game's allowed APM.
The Mid Tier either doesn't have good uptime one DOTs and AOEs, or doesn't use them effectively, or doesn't use enough of them, whereas the high tier does.

So, ZOS nerfed the effectiveness of DOTs and AOEs to narrow the gap between the Mid Tier and the High Tier.

This solution is flawed, or rather half-baked, because damage potential overall has been nerfed into the ground. The better solution would have been to buff the damage of spammables alongside the DOT nerf so that damage remains about where it was previously, as the Mid Tier, to reiterate, has weaving and spamming down, and the gap primarily sits on the ability of the High Tier to make efficient use of the game's allowed APM and ability bar space.


I don't believe that ZOS was inherently flawed in their approach to this update's combat rebalance, I just don't think it was well executed, and needs to be much more carefully reconsidered.

Light and heavy Attacks do not need to be nerfed, especially not like this.
DOTs and AOEs maybe should be nerfed, but other sources of damage, like Spammables and maybe ultimates as well, need to be buffed to counterbalance the loss in damage potential.

My solution would be to change DOTs to last 15 seconds with a 1sec tick rate (and damage adjusted accordingly) rather than 20 seconds and a 2sec tick rate so that uptime is a bit easier, as was the goal, but not so long that simply sitting there spamming doesn't make the combat so boring. Alongside this, I would buff spammable damage by about 25% so that where an average instant cast spammable (with well rounded character sheet stats) that does 10k tooltip damage now does about 12.5k damage instead, to compensate for the loss of damage from DOTs and AOEs.

merpins

If they did a tutorial in the undaunted for game mechanics, it would be kinda funny if they hired the ESO youtubers and twitch streaming community to do the voices. Deltia's Gaming, Nefas, Skinny Cheeks, Lucky Ghost... Have them voice the NPCs that teach the game mechanics. It would be a fun nod to the community that already actively teaches these mechanics the most.

BretonMage

The problem with DoTs, especially ground-based DoTs, is that most fights are pretty mobile (especially if you solo or don't have a tank, which will be most times in overland). So you put down a Wall of Elements but in 2 seconds, either the boss has moved out of it, or half the adds have. Nerfing the damage will be catastrophic to its usability. If they're worrying about uptime, extending it to 15 seconds is more than enough. But I wouldn't nerf the damage.

I agree we need a tutorial that teaches newer players about combat in ESO.

ccfeeling

Good suggestion , that's what new players need the most .

They already have Gilliamtherogue in combat team ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSkzR2g3-Mw

Mr_Stach

The issue is they didn't just touch on weaving, or on DoTs or Ground AoEs. They did this all at the same time, with also large sweeping changes to abilities and sustain.

If you really want to make things get to that good spot, they should do some micro-patches tackle one issue at a time.

DairyCat

Mr_Stach wrote: »

The issue is they didn't just touch on weaving, or on DoTs or Ground AoEs. They did this all at the same time, with also large sweeping changes to abilities and sustain.

If you really want to make things get to that good spot, they should do some micro-patches tackle one issue at a time.

God no. I'd rather they just rip the band aid off than peel it off slowly over an entire year or something.

Faulgor

This is a very important thread. After voicing our misgivings with these changes to no end, we should now take ZOS stated goals and give them some ideas about how to achieve them properly.

I agree with the problem, but not really the solutions.

For the weaving-problem, I think bringing down light attack damage a bit to lower its relevance is generally fine. It still retains the rhythm and satisfaction for higher level players, without making the gap too wide. It not only helps those who can't weave at all, but everyone who drops occasional light attacks. However, you'd have to bring up other sources of damage to compensate everyone who even weaves a little bit. I'll get to that.

Another, better option for the weaving problem is just to give more playstyle options, with less demanding rotations that can give viable DPS.
Not all low level players are made equal. Some only use abilities, and would be helped by moving damage from light and heavy attacks to those abilities. Others - we have seen them - mainly use light attacks.

I think both approaches could be combined, by going through with the light attack nerf to help non-weavers, and improve heavy attack and consecutive light attack builds to add more viable alternatives to high APM rotations.
IMO, it should be a standard feature that consecutive light attacks increase in damage - think combos. The first should do normal damage, the second 150%, and the third 200%. Fancy it up with appropriate animations. This wouldn't effect weavers at all, but help people starting out tremendously.
Then they just need to buffs heavy attack damage some more, which should be feasible as they have already professed to want to improve these builds.

As for the mid to high tier gap, I disagree with your proposal to buff spammables and nerf DOTs. In fact, I think it should be the very opposite. The current situation with 20 second DOTs is already that people have to use their spammable for 12-18 times in a row, and it is absolutely mind-numbing.
I'm also not convinced struggling players are helped by making spammables a larger part of your DPS. The game does not revolve around target dummies, all challenging encounters also require you to pay attention to mechanics. DOTs are a big relief in this regard, because once applied, you can pay attention to other things. Allegedly, keeping their uptimes in mind is a challenging part of building a rotation, but this could be tackled by normalizing DOT durations, so going through all your DOTs in sequence would actually be one of the easiest rotations.

However, as with the light attack issue, not every low-tier player has the same issues. Some would surely prefer rotations that focus on spammables, while others would be helped by DOTs. Therefore, I think we should have the same solution as above: More options. Long-term, there need to be better ways to focus on one or the other, e.g. through new enchantments that specifically buff direct damage. Of course, this has to be carefully balanced with PVP in mind, but IMO, more options are the best way to invite more people into higher level content.

In summary, my suggestions would be:

• lower light attack damage moderately to lessen the impact of perfect weaving
• buff heavy attack builds - heavy attack doesn't just mean lightning staff btw, other weapons need to offer more in this regard
• buff consecutive light attack builds - there are some sets that already do this, but it needs to be a base game feature
• buff base damage to compensate for light attack dmg loss
• extend and normalize DOT duration to 15 seconds, same tick frequency, same tick damage - this would ease up some pressure on keeping your rotation perfect, without having to use your spammable too often
• long term, add more ways to focus on direct damage or damage over time
• add a new questline to the fighters guild, that teaches you new combat mechanics as you level up to level 50 - preferably with a new skill line that includes direct damage, DOT, channel, AOE, etc, so no matter your current build you have access to all "tools" that are taught

The game plan is simply to make the more challenging mechanics - namely perfect light attack weaving - less mandatory, while offering more options on the low end that lets people progress into higher tier content in a way that is comfortable to them.

Amottica

Vylaera wrote: »

The gap between the Low Tier and the Mid Tier is effectiveness in weaving, primarily.

This is inaccurate. Weaving is only a percentage of our damage and the difference between the low and mid-tier is much greater than what weaving can provide on live. When taking into account the difference between the low end and high end or even mid-tier and high end it becomes clear that there is something much bigger in play.

That something is knowledge of the game at its core. The lack of knowledge leads to weak gear, poor choice in skills, and bad rotations. For some, they may not know where to look for this information. Some may not care as they are having fun doing what they are doing. This has been discussed ad nauseam since we were informed about these changes.

Even then, Zenimax is merely changing two aspects of the game to make them less challenging for those that are challenged with those two areas. In that, they have accomplished their stated goals which are to make weaving less important without eliminating it and make it easier to keep up with DoTs and some buffs.

Arthtur

I dont think LA damage is the problem. Like... it doesnt matter if this gives 15k dps or 5k dps. U still need to do it.

Relequen - U need to weave
Kinras - U need to weave

Bahsei/Stamina Bahsei - Perfect sustain managment

How in the world less damage on LA will help ppl use those sets? Hint, it wont.

Like add mythic item that buffs your damage done by 15-20% but u cant use LA. It wont outperfrom weaving with good sets but will bring other options up.
Nerfing damage of core mechanic wont change how important it is when a lot of popular sets is build around it...

DairyCat

I'm not against your changes in theory, but buffing spammables across the board would necessitate significant endurance buffs in PvP or gank builds in PvP would become way too strong.

DairyCat

Arthtur wrote: »

I dont think LA damage is the problem. Like... it doesnt matter if this gives 15k dps or 5k dps. U still need to do it.

Relequen - U need to weave
Kinras - U need to weave

Bahsei/Stamina Bahsei - Perfect sustain managment

How in the world less damage on LA will help ppl use those sets? Hint, it wont.

Like add mythic item that buffs your damage done by 15-20% but u cant use LA. It wont outperfrom weaving with good sets but will bring other options up.
Nerfing damage of core mechanic wont change how important it is when a lot of popular sets is build around it...

That mythic would have the same problem Oakensoul would have, i.e. make gank and burst builds too strong in PvP. Unless they gate it behind a PvE buff like Major and Minor Slayer.