"the Nightblade's melee spammable options are a bit behind..."

CameraBeardThePirate

This has to be one of the most ridiculous comments in any patch notes ever. I'll concede that it might be a little behind in PvE, but Surprise Attack is already one of, if not the best, melee spammables in PvP. This change boggles my mind.

chongguang

the SA change is good for stamblade , but still people told us dragon fights in SS not count as flanking...so will see ...
Also I was told SA is still lower than jabs even after the buff

Sandman929

Ask any nightblade and they'll tell you how bad everything is...meanwhile Wardens still throwing birds and Necros still lobbing skulls.

Suligost

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

This has to be one of the most ridiculous comments in any patch notes ever. I'll concede that it might be a little behind in PvE, but Surprise Attack is already one of, if not the best, melee spammables in PvP. This change boggles my mind.

Best spammable is DK whip but I agree... any change that will make NB kill you without allowing to react is a bad change. Period. Absoultly against that change even thou I'm playing mainly NB. Too strong. I don't like 1 button killer of DK (that should be even more nerfed in my opinion) and I don't want that in NB case aswell. Should be like 5% extra critical damage when flanking at best or honestly? Not changed at all.

xylena_lazarow

So why didn't they buff Swallow Soul then? What's with all these ranged class spammables being worse than the generic Destro one? The Surprise Attack buff may sound strange in PvP where it was already strong, but it doesn't buff gankers (who ate some unrelated big nerfs), it buffs the pressure that brawler NBs are able to put on, which should be fine.

If you wanna talk bad spammables, DK Stone Giant is the worst ability in any video game, ever.

CameraBeardThePirate

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

So why didn't they buff Swallow Soul then? What's with all these ranged class spammables being worse than the generic Destro one? The Surprise Attack buff may sound strange in PvP where it was already strong, but it doesn't buff gankers (who ate some unrelated big nerfs), it buffs the pressure that brawler NBs are able to put on, which should be fine.

If you wanna talk bad spammables, DK Stone Giant is the worst ability in any video game, ever.

It definitely still buffs gankers, because now they don't have to open with HA>Surprise Attack. They can open with HA>Incap and STILL crit with surprise attack out of stealth.

DrSlaughtr

From the other thread:

It's not as big a deal as you're making it out to be, OP.

SA already crits whether from front or back fairly often. It auto crits if you lead from cloak anyway. If I'm fighting you straight up it will crit more often than not.

All this does is punish you for not defending. ALWAYS ROLL THROUGH THE ATTACKER, NOT AWAY. Take away flank. Use some basic defense maneuvers.

Another thing you're missing is that melee NB will still be using Caluurions out of necessity, which means leading with an LA or HA. That means we're losing a lot of damage with the current nerf. My guess is these changes are to help overcome that with skill damage.

I'm more interested in the concealed weapon change as a way to finally meet Stam damage with a mag based melee build.

The last thing I want is for weekend warrior nightblades to overperform, like we're seeing with oakensoul. If this truly was game breaking I'd be sounding the bell as well, just like I did during the last "any average player can buy a set of VD and NB bomb entre groups within an hour" meta.

olsborg

Id rather they just give major breach back to Surprise attack, would be a better move then giving it guaranteed crit on flanking.

exeeter702

Its asinine to me that SA was deemed behind other spammables and now has how many mechanisms to it? Breach, off balance, stun, and now guarunteed crit from flank..

Meanwhile swallow soul, at the very least, getting its "minor vitality while slotted" back is crossing the line and would put the ability over the spammable ability power budget.

Lol....

Stx

When I read that line, it really demonstrates to me how little they know their own game. Surprise attack is one of the best spammables in the game and they said this...

endorphinsplox

I'm already getting hit for 8k SAs in PvP on a tanky WW templar build. As a nightblade main, I see no need to buff it. Relentless Focus needs a buff if anything.

Ultimately though this "class identity" subject is being handled so poorly by the dev team. Class identity shouldn't be focused on what buffs you get or the numbers involved. Yes those are important as you want all classes to maintain the same level relevance in content, but the most important concept for class identity is how it FEELS to play each class. If they're all playing the same with this update, what would be the point in playing them? Look how little build diversity is in PvP right now on top of that? "we wanna give attrition builds some love" No. Stop it. Fighting one dude for 10 minutes isn't fun gameplay. Survivability is one thing but permablocking until you have your potion and ult up so you can one-shot someone who sacrificed some survivability so they can kill people is just boring imo

MashmalloMan

Concealed Weapon definitely needed some changes, but when they did those changes it made Surprise Attack fall a little behind, so they added the guaranteed crit to make it more unique in comparison..

More often than not, it was critting anyway so I think it's not a substantial change. When you read out everything it does and how simple and easy it is to use. It makes other class spammables look like trash and that in lies the problem.

The top 3 dogs, Whip, Jabs and Surprise Attack still hold their crowns.

It's a gold standard for what a class spammable should be from launch.

How they chose to buff this, then gut Crystal Weapon and Bound Armaments because of flawed logic like hybrid changes, and lets be honest, Stam Sorcs abusing Oakensoal + Savage WW is beyond my level of comprehension. Couldn't make it through 1 patch with a good spammable, always the hammer, never the chisel.

starkerealm

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

This has to be one of the most ridiculous comments in any patch notes ever. I'll concede that it might be a little behind in PvE, but Surprise Attack is already one of, if not the best, melee spammables in PvP. This change boggles my mind.

I'll be honest, I came to this thread expecting a pun about flanking. I am now deeply disappointed, @CameraBeardThePirate.

DrSlaughtr

It's not in the pts notes. Caluurions was shadow nerfed. This is why they increased skill damage.

CameraBeardThePirate

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Concealed Weapon definitely needed some changes, but when they did those changes it made Surprise Attack fall a little behind, so they added the guaranteed crit to make it more unique in comparison..

More often than not, it was critting anyway so I think it's not a substantial change. When you read out everything it does and how simple and easy it is to use. It makes other class spammables look like trash and that in lies the problem.

The top 3 dogs, Whip, Jabs and Surprise Attack still hold their crowns.

It's a gold standard for what a class spammable should be from launch.

How they chose to buff this, then gut Crystal Weapon and Bound Armaments because of flawed logic like hybrid changes, and lets be honest, Stam Sorcs abusing Oakensoal + Savage WW is beyond my level of comprehension. Couldn't make it through 1 patch with a good spammable, always the hammer, never the chisel.

"More often than not it was critting anyways" isn't a good reason to make it crit more. Thats like saying "More often than not, blastbones hits for 7k+ so we're going to make the minimum damage 7k"

Like you said though, the real issue is that SA is completely overloaded. It stuns. It sets people off balance. It applies sundered. Why does it also need to crit from the flanks when other class spammables like Skulls don't have nearly as many cool things tied to it?

Even nightblade's own ranged spammable is laughable compared to SA.

Firstmep

ninjagank wrote: »

It's not in the pts notes. Caluurions was shadow nerfed. This is why they increased skill damage.

Yes beacuse only melee nightblades ever used caluurion.

Urvoth

Necro skulls are still slow, clunky, and the secondary effects are garbage, but hey let’s buff one of the most overloaded spammables in the game even more.

merpins

Yet again, they need to balance PVE and PVP separately. That way they can balance things properly. NB is super powerful in PVP, but in PVE, it's bottom of the barrel. Templar is also strong in PVP (I believe), but with the nerfs, it's now pretty low on the totem pole in PVE. It's not possible to really balance classes properly like this. It's going to constantly fluctuate. NB will always be bottom of the barrel in PVE because it's so strong in PVP, as long as they don't balance the game modes separately.

DrSlaughtr

Firstmep wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

It's not in the pts notes. Caluurions was shadow nerfed. This is why they increased skill damage.

Yes beacuse only melee nightblades ever used caluurion.

Are you referring to sap essence not being strong enough? It's a fair thought but it is an aoe. Those tend to do less damage than direct damage skills. I got no issue raising it's damage, too, so let's get behind that rather than trounce. Improvements for melee.

WreckfulAbandon

ninjagank wrote: »

Are you referring to sap essence not being strong enough? It's a fair thought but it is an aoe. Those tend to do less damage than direct damage skills. I got no issue raising it's damage, too, so let's get behind that rather than trounce. Improvements for melee.

Ever heard the saying dont look a gift horse in the mouth?

Other classes are getting taken to the cleaners by these patch notes. Plus the PTS cycle just started so maybe its a bit premature to ask for NB "improvements?"

fred4

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

This has to be one of the most ridiculous comments in any patch notes ever. I'll concede that it might be a little behind in PvE, but Surprise Attack is already one of, if not the best, melee spammables in PvP. This change boggles my mind.

You misunderstand. ZOS meant to say "they will be best used from behind".

DrSlaughtr

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

Are you referring to sap essence not being strong enough? It's a fair thought but it is an aoe. Those tend to do less damage than direct damage skills. I got no issue raising it's damage, too, so let's get behind that rather than trounce. Improvements for melee.

Ever heard the saying dont look a gift horse in the mouth?

Other classes are getting taken to the cleaners by these patch notes. Plus the PTS cycle just started so maybe its a bit premature to ask for NB "improvements?"

I saw Sorc was getting hit but everyone else looks fine. Did I miss something bad for DKs and templars? Nothing jumped out when I scrolled through yesterday.

WreckfulAbandon

For DK DoTs were nerfed, Molten Whip bonus damage nerfed, Templar got a "rework" of Jabs and Burning Light, Necro Intensive Mender nerfed by almost 50%, DoT passive nerfed. Maybe a wash on Necro if Tether ends up being better. Wardens seem to be mixed but there is definitely some negative. We all know what happened to Sorc. NB got out the best by far.

J18696

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

For DK DoTs were nerfed, Molten Whip bonus damage nerfed, Templar got a "rework" of Jabs and Burning Light, Necro Intensive Mender nerfed by almost 50%, DoT passive nerfed. Maybe a wash on Necro if Tether ends up being better. Wardens seem to be mixed but there is definitely some negative. We all know what happened to Sorc. NB got out the best by far.

Nb came out ahead if anything and sorc got sent to the bargain bin

DrSlaughtr

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

For DK DoTs were nerfed, Molten Whip bonus damage nerfed, Templar got a "rework" of Jabs and Burning Light, Necro Intensive Mender nerfed by almost 50%, DoT passive nerfed. Maybe a wash on Necro if Tether ends up being better. Wardens seem to be mixed but there is definitely some negative. We all know what happened to Sorc. NB got out the best by far.

I did see all that. DoTs are hit for everyone though, so that sucks all around. I saw the DK and sweeps stuff. I guess it just didn't jump out at me as a major issue, since both classes are rocking and rolling right now in PVP, and I tend to think PVP first.

olsborg

It doesnt work as stated in the patch notes, no crits is happening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhhmFm17z-o

CameraBeardThePirate

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

For DK DoTs were nerfed, Molten Whip bonus damage nerfed, Templar got a "rework" of Jabs and Burning Light, Necro Intensive Mender nerfed by almost 50%, DoT passive nerfed. Maybe a wash on Necro if Tether ends up being better. Wardens seem to be mixed but there is definitely some negative. We all know what happened to Sorc. NB got out the best by far.

Tbf the intensive mender nerf was needed, it healed for the same as resistant flesh every 2 seconds. It will likely still be one of the stronger HoTs in the game. However, they also gutted the already low Guardian healing on top of allowing the guardian to die. It's basically a whopping 3000 damage shield now.

Firstmep

Urvoth wrote: »

Necro skulls are still slow, clunky, and the secondary effects are garbage, but hey let’s buff one of the most overloaded spammables in the game even more.

I remember when Necro was teased for the first time and it was leaked that it would come with a scythe melee spammable, I was so hyped.
Than it turned out to be a tank ability that doesnt even look good and they got a weak ranged spammable instead .

Sandman929

Firstmep wrote: »

Urvoth wrote: »

Necro skulls are still slow, clunky, and the secondary effects are garbage, but hey let’s buff one of the most overloaded spammables in the game even more.

I remember when Necro was teased for the first time and it was leaked that it would come with a scythe melee spammable, I was so hyped.
Than it turned out to be a tank ability that doesnt even look good and they got a weak ranged spammable instead .

So much this. It's actually a pretty good looking skill too, but ZOS has decreed that it must be useless. Sadly they've also decided that skulls must remain useless too.

Firstmep

ninjagank wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

For DK DoTs were nerfed, Molten Whip bonus damage nerfed, Templar got a "rework" of Jabs and Burning Light, Necro Intensive Mender nerfed by almost 50%, DoT passive nerfed. Maybe a wash on Necro if Tether ends up being better. Wardens seem to be mixed but there is definitely some negative. We all know what happened to Sorc. NB got out the best by far.

I did see all that. DoTs are hit for everyone though, so that sucks all around. I saw the DK and sweeps stuff. I guess it just didn't jump out at me as a major issue, since both classes are rocking and rolling right now in PVP, and I tend to think PVP first.

Ngl dks and templars got the best of the hybridization changes to be sure, but it's not like nb is weak right now live.
I'd be all for making spectral bow less clunky and easier to land.
You know the funny thing is spectral bow and incap both got cast time beacuse they were deemed too powerful but suprise attack which more stacked now is an instant spammable.

Holycannoli

Time to shelve my stam sorc main and work on leveling my two nightblades again.