These Changes Destroy Solo PvP

Nevidyra

Survivability on live is already extremely difficult when you're outnumbered. 1vX, one of the most skill expressive playstyles in the entire game, something that is a core staple of the endgame PvP community and commonly watched on Twitch, is arguably in its worst state in years. These changes to healing, along with the new Nocturnal set, will shove solo PvP into a grave and bury it. Nocturnal will make it impossible to play outnumbered, but there's already a thread on that. Let's talk about healing.

A flat 40% nerf to regeneration and a 22% nerf to resolving vigor will make magicka, stamina, and hybrid specs borderline unplayable if you're doing anything but zerging in Cyrodiil. You're actively forcing players back together and encouraging ballgroups.

Let me be clear, healing was out of control. CROSSHEALING was out of control. We all wanted healing fixed, but NOT in a way that destroys Solo/Outnumbered PvP whilst keeping ballgroups and zergs insanely overtuned.

A much more reasonable way to go about this would be to disable the ability to heal players outside of your group, and introduce a healing efficiency reduction that begins to scale downwards in groups past 4 people, without nerfing these heals into the ground that you already struggle to survive with on live due to the amount of damage in the game. I cannot fathom the reasoning behind these changes; they seem to be made without any true knowledge of how they'll affect PvP. Please reconsider.

taugrim

Nevidyra wrote: »

Let me be clear, healing was out of control. CROSSHEALING was out of control. We all wanted healing fixed, but NOT in a way that destroys Solo/Outnumbered PvP whilst keeping ballgroups and zergs insanely overtuned.

Agreed that cross-healing is the issue, in particular the stacking of Radiating Regen on the same target.

A much simpler fix, which has been brought up multiple times on these forums, is to simply limiting the stacking to something reasonable, e.g. 2 stacks per target.

Tendoshii

They could remove cross healing. They could fix the tree next to glade mist. But instead we’re going to nerf healing skills that impact solo players the most and add major resolve for some reason.

MetallicMonk

They don't consider PvP when they make balancing changes whatsoever, or at most very rarely. They have such a poor and misinformed way of balancing that the changes they make seem to actively seek to remove any sliver of fun that has been left by accident in PvP.

Cuddlypuff

Doesn't seem like a huge deal for solo/duo unless your goal is to survive forever rather than maximize kills / minute. I'll be switching back from resto cheese to sword and board / frost staff though. Vigor with major resolve is great as it frees up an extra bar slot for another heal/buff.

Thecompton73

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

Doesn't seem like a huge deal for solo/duo unless your goal is to survive forever rather than maximize kills / minute. I'll be switching back from resto cheese to sword and board / frost staff though. Vigor with major resolve is great as it frees up an extra bar slot for another heal/buff.

The thing with vigor's healing getting nerfed in return for major resolve is many of the class skill that give the same buff have strong secondary effects so you still need both on your bar such as Rune focus or Hurricane. It's just another dumb and pointless change for the sake of changing things. Vigor currently ticks for like 2-2.5 per seconds on most builds and is certainly not in need of a nerf.

fred4

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

Doesn't seem like a huge deal for solo/duo unless your goal is to survive forever rather than maximize kills / minute. I'll be switching back from resto cheese to sword and board / frost staff though. Vigor with major resolve is great as it frees up an extra bar slot for another heal/buff.

The thing with vigor's healing getting nerfed in return for major resolve is many of the class skill that give the same buff have strong secondary effects so you still need both on your bar such as Rune focus or Hurricane. It's just another dumb and pointless change for the sake of changing things.

Yep.

WreckfulAbandon

Thecompton73 wrote: »

The thing with vigor's healing getting nerfed in return for major resolve is many of the class skill that give the same buff have strong secondary effects so you still need both on your bar such as Rune focus or Hurricane. It's just another dumb and pointless change for the sake of changing things. Vigor currently ticks for like 2-2.5 per seconds on most builds and is certainly not in need of a nerf.

Funny thing is its going to give NB more Major Resolve uptime in some situations. As if we needed more NB buffs this patch.

FrancisCrawford

MetallicMonk wrote: »

They don't consider PvP when they make balancing changes whatsoever, or at most very rarely. They have such a poor and misinformed way of balancing that the changes they make seem to actively seek to remove any sliver of fun that has been left by accident in PvP.

Really?

I thought they focused mainly on PvP, because a lot of the changes are bad from both a PvE and a casual QoL standpoint.

MetallicMonk

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

They don't consider PvP when they make balancing changes whatsoever, or at most very rarely. They have such a poor and misinformed way of balancing that the changes they make seem to actively seek to remove any sliver of fun that has been left by accident in PvP.

Really?

I thought they focused mainly on PvP, because a lot of the changes are bad from both a PvE and a casual QoL standpoint.

They definitely do not consider PvP hardly at all, and surely do not focus on it. I can agree that the changes are bad for other aspects of the game as well, eso really doesn't have a target audience they do right by except people that do not play the game in any real substantial way.

fred4

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

The thing with vigor's healing getting nerfed in return for major resolve is many of the class skill that give the same buff have strong secondary effects so you still need both on your bar such as Rune focus or Hurricane. It's just another dumb and pointless change for the sake of changing things. Vigor currently ticks for like 2-2.5 per seconds on most builds and is certainly not in need of a nerf.

Funny thing is its going to give NB more Major Resolve uptime in some situations. As if we needed more NB buffs this patch.

I would agree that all forms of ganking are out of control, right now. However if you play a more flexible spec, NB feels kind of crap this patch. Not survivable at all. With Oakensoul in it's current form, I don't think better resolve uptime will help, but you're right. If it's going to help any spec, it's probably NB.

Kusto

MetallicMonk wrote: »

They don't consider PvP when they make balancing changes whatsoever, or at most very rarely. They have such a poor and misinformed way of balancing that the changes they make seem to actively seek to remove any sliver of fun that has been left by accident in PvP.

You must be joking. 99% of all the changes are always done from pvp perspective. Pve monsters dont complain.

JustAGoodPlayer

A lot of players run with out a group, so do not let to heal players not in group is a bad idea. Max 12 targets - OK, but only in group is even bad idea.

MetallicMonk

Kusto wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

They don't consider PvP when they make balancing changes whatsoever, or at most very rarely. They have such a poor and misinformed way of balancing that the changes they make seem to actively seek to remove any sliver of fun that has been left by accident in PvP.

You must be joking. 99% of all the changes are always done from pvp perspective. Pve monsters dont complain.

Are players on these forums actually delusional to the point of thinking ZoS balances around PvP more than anything? Yes the aspect of their game that has the least amount of players and is the most poorly balanced is definitely what they're focusing on.

Truly eye opening I can't believe I never saw it before, no wonder when I talk to PvP players they can't stop talking about how much ZoS listens to them.

IZZEFlameLash

Well, that's what vague 'nerf healing' or 'healing is out of control' complaints will get you basically. I've not seen 'nerf cross heal' much compared to 'nerf heal'

Pepegrillos

1vx is a ridiculous playstyle that no game designer can seriously encourage. It consists of a veteran or experienced player stomping on new or bad players. It's literally a guy clubbing baby seals.

I can't think of another MMO where this kind of playstyle is lauded by the players or encouraged by the developers. It just isn't a thing.

fizzylu

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

They don't consider PvP when they make balancing changes whatsoever, or at most very rarely. They have such a poor and misinformed way of balancing that the changes they make seem to actively seek to remove any sliver of fun that has been left by accident in PvP.

You must be joking. 99% of all the changes are always done from pvp perspective. Pve monsters dont complain.

Are players on these forums actually delusional to the point of thinking ZoS balances around PvP more than anything? Yes the aspect of their game that has the least amount of players and is the most poorly balanced is definitely what they're focusing on.

Truly eye opening I can't believe I never saw it before, no wonder when I talk to PvP players they can't stop talking about how much ZoS listens to them.

Am I the only one that thinks ZOS doesn't balance around PVE or PVP? xD the new update won't benefit either side.... Oakensoul Ring didn't either. Yes, it might have helped players with accessibility issues.... but there were other ways to do that than a broken mythic item that very clearly would be OP in PVP and useless in endgame PVE. I honestly think they just write down ideas and pull them out from a hat just to stir the pot meanwhile avoiding putting time and money into fixing or adding things that would actually better the game for everyone.

FlamingBeard

fizzylu wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

They don't consider PvP when they make balancing changes whatsoever, or at most very rarely. They have such a poor and misinformed way of balancing that the changes they make seem to actively seek to remove any sliver of fun that has been left by accident in PvP.

You must be joking. 99% of all the changes are always done from pvp perspective. Pve monsters dont complain.

Are players on these forums actually delusional to the point of thinking ZoS balances around PvP more than anything? Yes the aspect of their game that has the least amount of players and is the most poorly balanced is definitely what they're focusing on.

Truly eye opening I can't believe I never saw it before, no wonder when I talk to PvP players they can't stop talking about how much ZoS listens to them.

Am I the only one that thinks ZOS doesn't balance around PVE or PVP? xD the new update won't benefit either side.... Oakensoul Ring didn't either. Yes, it might have helped players with accessibility issues.... but there were other ways to do that than a broken mythic item that very clearly would be OP in PVP and useless in endgame PVE. I honestly think they just write down ideas and pull them out from a hat just to stir the pot meanwhile avoiding putting time and money into fixing or adding things that would actually better the game for everyone.

You're on the right track. ZOS has said they balance based on statistics (how much a skill or set is used) and mathematics (damage/healing done and cost or risk associated) but that's pretty much where all "balance" standards end.

They make nigh-unrealistic endgame achievements which <1% of players will be able to clear, and then get mad at players for achieving high DPS and decent clear times for that content (but still not getting the top scores most of the time).

Instead of making functional lag-free content that's fun but also challenging, ZOS would rather kill off what's left of an already-dying endgame crowd and put ESO into life-support mode and feed off the remaining whales and naive new adopters.

Rohamad_Ali

Pepegrillos wrote: »

1vx is a ridiculous playstyle that no game designer can seriously encourage. It consists of a veteran or experienced player stomping on new or bad players. It's literally a guy clubbing baby seals.

I can't think of another MMO where this kind of playstyle is lauded by the players or encouraged by the developers. It just isn't a thing.

Literally?

Pepegrillos

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Pepegrillos wrote: »

1vx is a ridiculous playstyle that no game designer can seriously encourage. It consists of a veteran or experienced player stomping on new or bad players. It's literally a guy clubbing baby seals.

I can't think of another MMO where this kind of playstyle is lauded by the players or encouraged by the developers. It just isn't a thing.

Literally?

Pixelated baby seals wearing daedric armors that jump around and hold block.

WoppaBoem

taugrim wrote: »

Nevidyra wrote: »

Let me be clear, healing was out of control. CROSSHEALING was out of control. We all wanted healing fixed, but NOT in a way that destroys Solo/Outnumbered PvP whilst keeping ballgroups and zergs insanely overtuned.

Agreed that cross-healing is the issue, in particular the stacking of Radiating Regen on the same target.

A much simpler fix, which has been brought up multiple times on these forums, is to simply limiting the stacking to something reasonable, e.g. 2 stacks per target.

Big problem how to prioritize the simple regeneration without effects and the regens with spell power cure - transmutation and many others? Do you want to receive the lower healing regeneration from a healer with many buffs attached or the higher healing version from a dmg dealer with no additional bonuses. I think my magdk will be shafted next patch so many changes and regeneration is very important on my build but I am at least happy they are making and attempt to reduce overpowered healing in groups.

fred4

Pepegrillos wrote: »

1vx is a ridiculous playstyle that no game designer can seriously encourage. It consists of a veteran or experienced player stomping on new or bad players. It's literally a guy clubbing baby seals.

I can't think of another MMO where this kind of playstyle is lauded by the players or encouraged by the developers. It just isn't a thing.

This is coming from someone who rarely pulls off a 1vX. It's hard. Is it lauded? I don't know. I think it's respected and that has nothing to do with ZOS or this particular game. My YouTube video that has gotten the most views consists of me killing a bunch of players in quick succession in Cyrodiil. I didn't dress it up. There is no music, no editing, no comment. I am not a streamer. People naturally gravitate towards YouTube videos that look impressive. 1vX is such a thing.

All YouTube videos are cherry-picked, almost without exception. It's the nature of short or edited videos that they misrepresent reality to some degree. It becomes more impressive when you watch someone on Twitch and you realise how consistently, or not, they're 1vXing, and how much, or not, they go out of their way to create the right conditions. It's not easy to pull off. As a single player you are the underdog against groups by default and you never know what you're going to get. Yeah, there are cases where you might look at footage and call the 1vXer the favorite against a bad group or zerg. In general, though, it's hard and they're struggling, having to heavily rely on line of sight, hanging on to life themselves. It's generally much harder when it's a genuine 1vX and not a 2vX or a small group fighting a large zerg.

EDIT: Or maybe it does have something to do with this game. Contrary to other games you do not have much of a gear advantage in ESO. It is less grindy. The must-have item at present, Oakensoul, can be farmed by any solo player and only requires a time investment, not even that much anymore. Since they fixed Murkmire, I've heard claims of people farming it in 1.5 hours. Other than that, crafted and store-bought sets can make you completely competitive. If you play in BGs or Ravenwatch, you don't even need CP. ESO PvP is largely about experience. In my estimation it's 70% experience and 30% having a good build. There is no barrier to having a good build. That's what makes 1vX that much more impressive.

Faded

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Pepegrillos wrote: »

1vx is a ridiculous playstyle that no game designer can seriously encourage. It consists of a veteran or experienced player stomping on new or bad players. It's literally a guy clubbing baby seals.

I can't think of another MMO where this kind of playstyle is lauded by the players or encouraged by the developers. It just isn't a thing.

Literally?

I didn't even know there were seals in Cyrodiil. At the lake by Bruma?

Stx

Vigor change is actually good. It frees up a bar slot for all classes except NB, and the duration increase means less spamming of this ability.

1vXers can adjust their playstyle, as you can't and should never balance a game around 1vX. If 1vX is truly what you consider the most skillful gameplay (running away and using LoS to pick off noobs), then you will find a way to adapt to these changes and still succeed.

Holycannoli

Nevidyra wrote: »

Survivability on live is already extremely difficult when you're outnumbered. 1vX, one of the most skill expressive playstyles in the entire game, something that is a core staple of the endgame PvP community and commonly watched on Twitch, is arguably in its worst state in years. These changes to healing, along with the new Nocturnal set, will shove solo PvP into a grave and bury it. Nocturnal will make it impossible to play outnumbered, but there's already a thread on that. Let's talk about healing.

A flat 40% nerf to regeneration and a 22% nerf to resolving vigor will make magicka, stamina, and hybrid specs borderline unplayable if you're doing anything but zerging in Cyrodiil. You're actively forcing players back together and encouraging ballgroups.

Let me be clear, healing was out of control. CROSSHEALING was out of control. We all wanted healing fixed, but NOT in a way that destroys Solo/Outnumbered PvP whilst keeping ballgroups and zergs insanely overtuned.

A much more reasonable way to go about this would be to disable the ability to heal players outside of your group, and introduce a healing efficiency reduction that begins to scale downwards in groups past 4 people, without nerfing these heals into the ground that you already struggle to survive with on live due to the amount of damage in the game. I cannot fathom the reasoning behind these changes; they seem to be made without any true knowledge of how they'll affect PvP. Please reconsider.

Don't worry, the have a "long term plan" and you should try out the changes before coming to conclusions.



It's already an infamous patch it's so bad.

fred4

Stx wrote: »

Vigor change is actually good. It frees up a bar slot.

• Templar rune gives you 480 equivalent regen, plus healing while standing on it. Impossible to give up.
• DK armor skill gives +12% healing from a class passive, while active, and offers a nightblade detection option. Come to think of it, the DK burst heal activates the same passive so, yeah, it would work for DK. Not sure how I feel about that. Depends on the overall strength of DK, next patch.
• The sorc armor skill offers speed and AOE. For stamsorc with it's bad healing and no shields, and if we're assuming bowsorc isn't going to stay meta forever, Hurricane has always served to help activate Crit Surge and keep them alive in melee combat.
• Well, OK, the warden armor skill is so crap in PvP, that's the class that will actually benefit. Minor protection isn't much to write home about and warden (or at least magden) is overburdened with buffs as a class. Cutting one out will help that class alright and it's a class that's not in a good place IMO. I can see this being a good change here.
• Nightblades, specifically ranged ones that don't spam Surprise Attack / Concealed nor cloak all the time, will IMO benefit.

I don't know necros, but it seems like a weird change. It's a mixed bag that will benefit some classes.