U35 - Surprise attack is blatantly overpowered.

MentalxHammer

Surprise attack is already one of the hardest hitting spammables in the game. On top of this damage it has minor breach, off balance, and a CC tied to it. There is a general consensus that this is already an overloaded skill.

In U35 surprise attack now has guaranteed crit from the sides or back. There is simply no need for an overloaded skill to see such a dramatic buff, it doesn’t need guaranteed crit from flank, or even 10% extra crit chance from the flank to be an extremely strong skill.

With that being said I play all classes in PvP, but have over 5000 hours on brawler NB alone. I would obviously benefit from this buff, but I honestly don’t want it. Why? Because it’s overpowered and I’ll feel cheesy for using a skill that will inevitably see a nerf. Just scrap this idea. There will be an inevitable influx of NBs chasing the meta and balance will be tipped in one direction if this single change goes live.

X_K

PvPBlade needed a Merciless Resolve buff not a Surprise attack buff. and PvE blade needed a Merciless Resolve buff. SA buff is wild in both pvp and pve and super unneeded.

Suligost

I'm playing NB and I don't want to see Caluurion being replaced by surpise attack . I have disgust myself enough from fighting DK whips and don't want another class to have 1 button killer.

DrSlaughtr

It's not as big a deal as you're making it out to be, OP.

SA already crits whether from front or back fairly often. It auto crits if you lead from cloak anyway. All this does is punish you for not defending. ALWAYS ROLL THROUGH THE ATTACKER, NOT AWAY.

Another thing you're missing is that melee NB will still be using Caluurions, which means leading when an LA or HA. That means we're losing a lot of damage. My guess is these changes are to help overcome that will skill damage.

I'm more interested in the concealed weapon change as a way to finally meet Stam damage with a mag based melee build.

Wuuffyy

Take guaranteed effect off. It can only proc it normally and I like this much better

chongguang

I feel so suprise that still there are ppl not find out this SA change is made for PVE , a love ZOS gave to NB for PVE content rather than PVP oriented
Please please go to visit ESO logs and see how many dks necs dominate the parses and see how weak Nbs are right now. Almost one of the weakest class right now get a little buff and being blamed OP... This really shocks me.
TBH, I think Nb need more buffs to bring them back to the top tier in PVE like they were

robpr

If at all, the Concealed morph should get it, not Surprise.

Klingenlied

People got it the wrong way. Nightblade spamable now has flavor, uniqueness, power. It's great!

Wanna complain? Complain why Necro or Warden spamable just pale in comparison. Give us cool stuff for all classes. Not just for one or two. They nerfed enough. I do not need more power then we do have on live. But I don't want us nerfed into the ground like they did with some PTS classes.

React

Yeah, as another player with 3-4k hours on NB, I do not understand this buff.

Surprise attack is one of, if not the best spammables in the game. It was fine with just the guaranteed sundered proc - arguably, the stun shouldn't have even been present on it. Allowing it to perma crit from the flank is just a mistake. This should be rolled back.

On the other hand, concealed weapon DID need a buff to be brought up to par with surprise attack (the version of surprise on live, that is). I like the changes to concealed weapon, however I'd like to see the 300 WD be tied to casting the ability rather than leaving stealth. Tying it to stealth is just silly.

DrSlaughtr

React wrote: »

Yeah, as another player with 3-4k hours on NB, I do not understand this buff.

Surprise attack is one of, if not the best spammables in the game. It was fine with just the guaranteed sundered proc - arguably, the stun shouldn't have even been present on it. Allowing it to perma crit from the flank is just a mistake. This should be rolled back.

On the other hand, concealed weapon DID need a buff to be brought up to par with surprise attack (the version of surprise on live, that is). I like the changes to concealed weapon, however I'd like to see the 300 WD be tied to casting the ability rather than leaving stealth. Tying it to stealth is just silly.

SA is not the best spammable in the game. Whip and jabs are better, both actively and passively. Look at all you get from both morphs of jabs.

As pointed out above, this SA change is better for PvE. It's nice for pvp but really isn't that big of a deal. The fights where I need more damage are not usually fought from flank do to the player being better at maneuvering and defending.

As for your complaint of concealed, this will give it a chance to meet SA for damage output. If you required it to be cast to get the buff it would be significantly less useful because you would be forced to lead with CW rather than soul harvest or a heavy attack. You would be doing a lot less damage.

As of now, it basically gets you around the most negative issue with running a mag melee gank. You can't stack frenzied momentum with mag skills. This gives you the ability to have the weapon/spell damage only Stam has access to.

kypranb14_ESO

It only has the guaranteed critical hit if it stuns. The patch notes are misleading.

React

ninjagank wrote: »

React wrote: »

Yeah, as another player with 3-4k hours on NB, I do not understand this buff.

Surprise attack is one of, if not the best spammables in the game. It was fine with just the guaranteed sundered proc - arguably, the stun shouldn't have even been present on it. Allowing it to perma crit from the flank is just a mistake. This should be rolled back.

On the other hand, concealed weapon DID need a buff to be brought up to par with surprise attack (the version of surprise on live, that is). I like the changes to concealed weapon, however I'd like to see the 300 WD be tied to casting the ability rather than leaving stealth. Tying it to stealth is just silly.

SA is not the best spammable in the game. Whip and jabs are better, both actively and passively. Look at all you get from both morphs of jabs.

As pointed out above, this SA change is better for PvE. It's nice for pvp but really isn't that big of a deal. The fights where I need more damage are not usually fought from flank do to the player being better at maneuvering and defending.

As for your complaint of concealed, this will give it a chance to meet SA for damage output. If you required it to be cast to get the buff it would be significantly less useful because you would be forced to lead with CW rather than soul harvest or a heavy attack. You would be doing a lot less damage.

As of now, it basically gets you around the most negative issue with running a mag melee gank. You can't stack frenzied momentum with mag skills. This gives you the ability to have the weapon/spell damage only Stam has access to.

You do realize that the class can do things other than gank, right?

Brawler stam/hybrid, or just standard melee magNB both exist. Neither can benefit from the concealed weapon change.

As far as PVP spammables go, surprise is undeniably top 3 with the two you just listed, and I wouldn't be quick to place any of them above on another as they all have strong, unique effects attached to them.

kypranb14_ESO wrote: »

It only has the guaranteed critical hit if it stuns. The patch notes are misleading.

It actually is a guaranteed crit only from the sides. It doesn't matter if it stuns or not - the guaranteed crit only happens on the flanks, which are apparently the 90* sections conal sections on either sides of your character. Does not include the rear.

Firstmep

ninjagank wrote: »

It's not as big a deal as you're making it out to be, OP.

SA already crits whether from front or back fairly often. It auto crits if you lead from cloak anyway. All this does is punish you for not defending. ALWAYS ROLL THROUGH THE ATTACKER, NOT AWAY.

Another thing you're missing is that melee NB will still be using Caluurions, which means leading when an LA or HA. That means we're losing a lot of damage. My guess is these changes are to help overcome that will skill damage.

I'm more interested in the concealed weapon change as a way to finally meet Stam damage with a mag based melee build.

This would be cool, if this game didnt have a huge issue with position desync.
I regularly get SA stunned while on my screen the night blade is still literally in front of me.
And I know most people face this issue.
Regardless as op stated, this skill didnt need another mechanic on top of what it already has.
It's already 1 button spammable and cc and many NBs dont even bother with an execute since it hits so hard anyway.

And i just want to point out that have already been down this road before, and it was followed by a huge wave of nerfs to nightblades.
If this goes live, people will flock to the forum, and zos will hit you with all the kneejerk overnerfs a growing nightblade needs.

exeeter702

ninjagank wrote: »

React wrote: »

Yeah, as another player with 3-4k hours on NB, I do not understand this buff.

Surprise attack is one of, if not the best spammables in the game. It was fine with just the guaranteed sundered proc - arguably, the stun shouldn't have even been present on it. Allowing it to perma crit from the flank is just a mistake. This should be rolled back.

On the other hand, concealed weapon DID need a buff to be brought up to par with surprise attack (the version of surprise on live, that is). I like the changes to concealed weapon, however I'd like to see the 300 WD be tied to casting the ability rather than leaving stealth. Tying it to stealth is just silly.

SA is not the best spammable in the game. Whip and jabs are better, both actively and passively. Look at all you get from both morphs of jabs.

As pointed out above, this SA change is better for PvE. It's nice for pvp but really isn't that big of a deal. The fights where I need more damage are not usually fought from flank do to the player being better at maneuvering and defending.

As for your complaint of concealed, this will give it a chance to meet SA for damage output. If you required it to be cast to get the buff it would be significantly less useful because you would be forced to lead with CW rather than soul harvest or a heavy attack. You would be doing a lot less damage.

As of now, it basically gets you around the most negative issue with running a mag melee gank. You can't stack frenzied momentum with mag skills. This gives you the ability to have the weapon/spell damage only Stam has access to.

Its so exhausting trying to have a discussion about NB when people by default, assume NBs inherently and exclusively play stealth.

CW does nothing for non stealth, and brawlerblade absolutely could have benefited from the WD/SD, magblade in particular.

DrSlaughtr

React wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

React wrote: »

Yeah, as another player with 3-4k hours on NB, I do not understand this buff.

Surprise attack is one of, if not the best spammables in the game. It was fine with just the guaranteed sundered proc - arguably, the stun shouldn't have even been present on it. Allowing it to perma crit from the flank is just a mistake. This should be rolled back.

On the other hand, concealed weapon DID need a buff to be brought up to par with surprise attack (the version of surprise on live, that is). I like the changes to concealed weapon, however I'd like to see the 300 WD be tied to casting the ability rather than leaving stealth. Tying it to stealth is just silly.

SA is not the best spammable in the game. Whip and jabs are better, both actively and passively. Look at all you get from both morphs of jabs.

As pointed out above, this SA change is better for PvE. It's nice for pvp but really isn't that big of a deal. The fights where I need more damage are not usually fought from flank do to the player being better at maneuvering and defending.

As for your complaint of concealed, this will give it a chance to meet SA for damage output. If you required it to be cast to get the buff it would be significantly less useful because you would be forced to lead with CW rather than soul harvest or a heavy attack. You would be doing a lot less damage.

As of now, it basically gets you around the most negative issue with running a mag melee gank. You can't stack frenzied momentum with mag skills. This gives you the ability to have the weapon/spell damage only Stam has access to.

You do realize that the class can do things other than gank, right?

Brawler stam/hybrid, or just standard melee magNB both exist. Neither can benefit from the concealed weapon change.

As far as PVP spammables go, surprise is undeniably top 3 with the two you just listed, and I wouldn't be quick to place any of them above on another as they all have strong, unique effects attached to them.

kypranb14_ESO wrote: »

It only has the guaranteed critical hit if it stuns. The patch notes are misleading.

It actually is a guaranteed crit only from the sides. It doesn't matter if it stuns or not - the guaranteed crit only happens on the flanks, which are apparently the 90* sections conal sections on either sides of your character. Does not include the rear.

First, I listed two ahead of it, watch makes it #3. Sorc, warden and necro (especially the last two) are behind the times. But all three of those classes have significant other advantages. That's another thread though. 😬

Second, there's nothing stopping you from running a dark cloak blade. I see them every night. There's a whole dark cloak guild on XB. I'm not sure what this has to do with the discussion, unless of course you're making the argument ELIMINATE GANKING MAKE ALL NBS BRAWLERS, which is kinda tired at this point. We aren't going anywhere. We are playing the class as conceived from the start.

The game gives you the tools to play a brawler blade but make no mistake, the class identity is stealth and you can see that all over their own marketing materials.

For me, if I want to play a brawler I'll get on my DK or sorc.

Like it or not, we're only doing well because of two things. Oakensoul, which is getting nerfed (rightfully so) which will lead to our numbers dropping back down (as they should), and Caluurions, which is dodgeball/blockable, and we only run that because we have no other options. Every other set we've used in the past has been taken away from us.

Everyone else is running around in proc sets but apparently NBs aren't allowed. I'd happily go back to wearing straight damage gear but our damage isn't high enough to compete.

Firstmep wrote: »

This would be cool, if this game didnt have a huge issue with position desync.
I regularly get SA stunned while on my screen the night blade is still literally in front of me.
And I know most people face this issue.
Regardless as op stated, this skill didnt need another mechanic on top of what it already has.
It's already 1 button spammable and cc and many NBs dont even bother with an execute since it hits so hard anyway.

I've explained this before.

Surprise Attack isn't desyncing you. The CC is. And if they're hitting you from stealth you're getting cc'd anyway, which gives you CC immunity. My point is desyncing happens because of CC's. I get desync'd by talons and dark convergence all the time. I'm all for fixing this issue but it's not NB specific.

Firstmep

ninjagank wrote: »

React wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

React wrote: »

Yeah, as another player with 3-4k hours on NB, I do not understand this buff.

Surprise attack is one of, if not the best spammables in the game. It was fine with just the guaranteed sundered proc - arguably, the stun shouldn't have even been present on it. Allowing it to perma crit from the flank is just a mistake. This should be rolled back.

On the other hand, concealed weapon DID need a buff to be brought up to par with surprise attack (the version of surprise on live, that is). I like the changes to concealed weapon, however I'd like to see the 300 WD be tied to casting the ability rather than leaving stealth. Tying it to stealth is just silly.

SA is not the best spammable in the game. Whip and jabs are better, both actively and passively. Look at all you get from both morphs of jabs.

As pointed out above, this SA change is better for PvE. It's nice for pvp but really isn't that big of a deal. The fights where I need more damage are not usually fought from flank do to the player being better at maneuvering and defending.

As for your complaint of concealed, this will give it a chance to meet SA for damage output. If you required it to be cast to get the buff it would be significantly less useful because you would be forced to lead with CW rather than soul harvest or a heavy attack. You would be doing a lot less damage.

As of now, it basically gets you around the most negative issue with running a mag melee gank. You can't stack frenzied momentum with mag skills. This gives you the ability to have the weapon/spell damage only Stam has access to.

You do realize that the class can do things other than gank, right?

Brawler stam/hybrid, or just standard melee magNB both exist. Neither can benefit from the concealed weapon change.

As far as PVP spammables go, surprise is undeniably top 3 with the two you just listed, and I wouldn't be quick to place any of them above on another as they all have strong, unique effects attached to them.

kypranb14_ESO wrote: »

It only has the guaranteed critical hit if it stuns. The patch notes are misleading.

It actually is a guaranteed crit only from the sides. It doesn't matter if it stuns or not - the guaranteed crit only happens on the flanks, which are apparently the 90* sections conal sections on either sides of your character. Does not include the rear.

First, I listed two ahead of it, watch makes it #3. Sorc, warden and necro (especially the last two) are behind the times. But all three of those classes have significant other advantages. That's another thread though. 😬

Second, there's nothing stopping you from running a dark cloak blade. I see them every night. There's a whole dark cloak guild on XB. I'm not sure what this has to do with the discussion, unless of course you're making the argument ELIMINATE GANKING MAKE ALL NBS BRAWLERS, which is kinda tired at this point. We aren't going anywhere. We are playing the class as conceived from the start.

The game gives you the tools to play a brawler blade but make no mistake, the class identity is stealth and you can see that all over their own marketing materials.

For me, if I want to play a brawler I'll get on my DK or sorc.

Like it or not, we're only doing well because of two things. Oakensoul, which is getting nerfed (rightfully so) which will lead to our numbers dropping back down (as they should), and Caluurions, which is dodgeball/blockable, and we only run that because we have no other options. Every other set we've used in the past has been taken away from us.

Everyone else is running around in proc sets but apparently NBs aren't allowed. I'd happily go back to wearing straight damage gear but our damage isn't high enough to compete.

Firstmep wrote: »

This would be cool, if this game didnt have a huge issue with position desync.
I regularly get SA stunned while on my screen the night blade is still literally in front of me.
And I know most people face this issue.
Regardless as op stated, this skill didnt need another mechanic on top of what it already has.
It's already 1 button spammable and cc and many NBs dont even bother with an execute since it hits so hard anyway.

I've explained this before.

Surprise Attack isn't desyncing you. The CC is. And if they're hitting you from stealth you're getting cc'd anyway, which gives you CC immunity. My point is desyncing happens because of CC's. I get desync'd by talons and dark convergence all the time. I'm all for fixing this issue but it's not NB specific.

It is a suprise attack issue, beacuse it's the thing that gets the flanking bonus when your opponent doesnt see you flanking. It's that simple.
And again, SA doesnt need any more mechanics crammed into it, its already one of the best spammable in the game.

Didgerion

ninjagank wrote: »

It's not as big a deal as you're making it out to be, OP.

SA already crits whether from front or back fairly often. It auto crits if you lead from cloak anyway. All this does is punish you for not defending. ALWAYS ROLL THROUGH THE ATTACKER, NOT AWAY.

Another thing you're missing is that melee NB will still be using Caluurions, which means leading when an LA or HA. That means we're losing a lot of damage. My guess is these changes are to help overcome that will skill damage.

I'm more interested in the concealed weapon change as a way to finally meet Stam damage with a mag based melee build.

It is a big deal. Now you can have both your ultimate and SA critting when you open up from stealth. That is a strong opener that will promote ganking even further.

DrSlaughtr

Firstmep wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

React wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

React wrote: »

Yeah, as another player with 3-4k hours on NB, I do not understand this buff.

Surprise attack is one of, if not the best spammables in the game. It was fine with just the guaranteed sundered proc - arguably, the stun shouldn't have even been present on it. Allowing it to perma crit from the flank is just a mistake. This should be rolled back.

On the other hand, concealed weapon DID need a buff to be brought up to par with surprise attack (the version of surprise on live, that is). I like the changes to concealed weapon, however I'd like to see the 300 WD be tied to casting the ability rather than leaving stealth. Tying it to stealth is just silly.

SA is not the best spammable in the game. Whip and jabs are better, both actively and passively. Look at all you get from both morphs of jabs.

As pointed out above, this SA change is better for PvE. It's nice for pvp but really isn't that big of a deal. The fights where I need more damage are not usually fought from flank do to the player being better at maneuvering and defending.

As for your complaint of concealed, this will give it a chance to meet SA for damage output. If you required it to be cast to get the buff it would be significantly less useful because you would be forced to lead with CW rather than soul harvest or a heavy attack. You would be doing a lot less damage.

As of now, it basically gets you around the most negative issue with running a mag melee gank. You can't stack frenzied momentum with mag skills. This gives you the ability to have the weapon/spell damage only Stam has access to.

You do realize that the class can do things other than gank, right?

Brawler stam/hybrid, or just standard melee magNB both exist. Neither can benefit from the concealed weapon change.

As far as PVP spammables go, surprise is undeniably top 3 with the two you just listed, and I wouldn't be quick to place any of them above on another as they all have strong, unique effects attached to them.

kypranb14_ESO wrote: »

It only has the guaranteed critical hit if it stuns. The patch notes are misleading.

It actually is a guaranteed crit only from the sides. It doesn't matter if it stuns or not - the guaranteed crit only happens on the flanks, which are apparently the 90* sections conal sections on either sides of your character. Does not include the rear.

First, I listed two ahead of it, watch makes it #3. Sorc, warden and necro (especially the last two) are behind the times. But all three of those classes have significant other advantages. That's another thread though. 😬

Second, there's nothing stopping you from running a dark cloak blade. I see them every night. There's a whole dark cloak guild on XB. I'm not sure what this has to do with the discussion, unless of course you're making the argument ELIMINATE GANKING MAKE ALL NBS BRAWLERS, which is kinda tired at this point. We aren't going anywhere. We are playing the class as conceived from the start.

The game gives you the tools to play a brawler blade but make no mistake, the class identity is stealth and you can see that all over their own marketing materials.

For me, if I want to play a brawler I'll get on my DK or sorc.

Like it or not, we're only doing well because of two things. Oakensoul, which is getting nerfed (rightfully so) which will lead to our numbers dropping back down (as they should), and Caluurions, which is dodgeball/blockable, and we only run that because we have no other options. Every other set we've used in the past has been taken away from us.

Everyone else is running around in proc sets but apparently NBs aren't allowed. I'd happily go back to wearing straight damage gear but our damage isn't high enough to compete.

Firstmep wrote: »

This would be cool, if this game didnt have a huge issue with position desync.
I regularly get SA stunned while on my screen the night blade is still literally in front of me.
And I know most people face this issue.
Regardless as op stated, this skill didnt need another mechanic on top of what it already has.
It's already 1 button spammable and cc and many NBs dont even bother with an execute since it hits so hard anyway.

I've explained this before.

Surprise Attack isn't desyncing you. The CC is. And if they're hitting you from stealth you're getting cc'd anyway, which gives you CC immunity. My point is desyncing happens because of CC's. I get desync'd by talons and dark convergence all the time. I'm all for fixing this issue but it's not NB specific.

It is a suprise attack issue, beacuse it's the thing that gets the flanking bonus when your opponent doesnt see you flanking. It's that simple.
And again, SA doesnt need any more mechanics crammed into it, its already one of the best spammable in the game.

Desyncing is a CC issue. Latching it onto your disdained for surprise attack isn't a fair criticism.

"Flanking bonus when your opponent doesn't see you flanking" is the whole point of flanking. If you knew someone was flanking you with a big warning sign, you'd turn around.

By the way, as I first mentioned, roll dodge through the NB, not away, and you will take away the advantage.

People always say stuff like "it's already one of the best." There can only be one and it isn't SA. It's firmly #3. And if you're complaining that a spammable has too many advantages, I expect to see a Puncturing Strikes complaint thread soon.

I'll break this down again. Our class is built for burst damage and yet our toolkit is quite behind other classes in damage output. This is because we were balanced around a dozen proc sets that USED to work on NB. Most of them have been altered to no longer work on NB.

Maybe they're making this changes to see where our damage goes, and if it looks right they'll take a look at Caluurions. But no, some players would rather NB get shelved all together because we interrupt duals or burn your lancer.

There are players who just want to stand on one spot and spam a single attack over and over without fearing getting flanked. They will continue to be disappointment or learn how to defend. The amount of people I know who run flare for the protection but won't keep it under their feet while on a meat bag is hilarious.

olsborg

X_K wrote: »

PvPBlade needed a Merciless Resolve buff not a Surprise attack buff.

Yes this, id rather see Merciless get a buff, the problem with it is its travel time, it gets dodged 50% of the time and the rest of the time its blocked, way too telegraphed skill and ppl know when its coming. Also the 300 wepdmg you get from the 5 proccs should stay for 1s after casting the bow so it at the very least also buffs itself.

DrSlaughtr

You guys do realize that Caluurions is nuked for NBs on the pts, right? That's why our skill damage was increased. They didn't put it in the notes.

CameraBeardThePirate

ninjagank wrote: »

You guys do realize that Caluurions is nuked for NBs on the pts, right? That's why our skill damage was increased. They didn't put it in the notes.

There are other proc sets. Flame blossom comes to mind as a good alternative. Caluurions was overloaded anyways.

Firstmep

ninjagank wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

React wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

React wrote: »

Yeah, as another player with 3-4k hours on NB, I do not understand this buff.

Surprise attack is one of, if not the best spammables in the game. It was fine with just the guaranteed sundered proc - arguably, the stun shouldn't have even been present on it. Allowing it to perma crit from the flank is just a mistake. This should be rolled back.

On the other hand, concealed weapon DID need a buff to be brought up to par with surprise attack (the version of surprise on live, that is). I like the changes to concealed weapon, however I'd like to see the 300 WD be tied to casting the ability rather than leaving stealth. Tying it to stealth is just silly.

SA is not the best spammable in the game. Whip and jabs are better, both actively and passively. Look at all you get from both morphs of jabs.

As pointed out above, this SA change is better for PvE. It's nice for pvp but really isn't that big of a deal. The fights where I need more damage are not usually fought from flank do to the player being better at maneuvering and defending.

As for your complaint of concealed, this will give it a chance to meet SA for damage output. If you required it to be cast to get the buff it would be significantly less useful because you would be forced to lead with CW rather than soul harvest or a heavy attack. You would be doing a lot less damage.

As of now, it basically gets you around the most negative issue with running a mag melee gank. You can't stack frenzied momentum with mag skills. This gives you the ability to have the weapon/spell damage only Stam has access to.

You do realize that the class can do things other than gank, right?

Brawler stam/hybrid, or just standard melee magNB both exist. Neither can benefit from the concealed weapon change.

As far as PVP spammables go, surprise is undeniably top 3 with the two you just listed, and I wouldn't be quick to place any of them above on another as they all have strong, unique effects attached to them.

kypranb14_ESO wrote: »

It only has the guaranteed critical hit if it stuns. The patch notes are misleading.

It actually is a guaranteed crit only from the sides. It doesn't matter if it stuns or not - the guaranteed crit only happens on the flanks, which are apparently the 90* sections conal sections on either sides of your character. Does not include the rear.

First, I listed two ahead of it, watch makes it #3. Sorc, warden and necro (especially the last two) are behind the times. But all three of those classes have significant other advantages. That's another thread though. 😬

Second, there's nothing stopping you from running a dark cloak blade. I see them every night. There's a whole dark cloak guild on XB. I'm not sure what this has to do with the discussion, unless of course you're making the argument ELIMINATE GANKING MAKE ALL NBS BRAWLERS, which is kinda tired at this point. We aren't going anywhere. We are playing the class as conceived from the start.

The game gives you the tools to play a brawler blade but make no mistake, the class identity is stealth and you can see that all over their own marketing materials.

For me, if I want to play a brawler I'll get on my DK or sorc.

Like it or not, we're only doing well because of two things. Oakensoul, which is getting nerfed (rightfully so) which will lead to our numbers dropping back down (as they should), and Caluurions, which is dodgeball/blockable, and we only run that because we have no other options. Every other set we've used in the past has been taken away from us.

Everyone else is running around in proc sets but apparently NBs aren't allowed. I'd happily go back to wearing straight damage gear but our damage isn't high enough to compete.

Firstmep wrote: »

This would be cool, if this game didnt have a huge issue with position desync.
I regularly get SA stunned while on my screen the night blade is still literally in front of me.
And I know most people face this issue.
Regardless as op stated, this skill didnt need another mechanic on top of what it already has.
It's already 1 button spammable and cc and many NBs dont even bother with an execute since it hits so hard anyway.

I've explained this before.

Surprise Attack isn't desyncing you. The CC is. And if they're hitting you from stealth you're getting cc'd anyway, which gives you CC immunity. My point is desyncing happens because of CC's. I get desync'd by talons and dark convergence all the time. I'm all for fixing this issue but it's not NB specific.

It is a suprise attack issue, beacuse it's the thing that gets the flanking bonus when your opponent doesnt see you flanking. It's that simple.
And again, SA doesnt need any more mechanics crammed into it, its already one of the best spammable in the game.

Desyncing is a CC issue. Latching it onto your disdained for surprise attack isn't a fair criticism.

"Flanking bonus when your opponent doesn't see you flanking" is the whole point of flanking. If you knew someone was flanking you with a big warning sign, you'd turn around.

By the way, as I first mentioned, roll dodge through the NB, not away, and you will take away the advantage.

People always say stuff like "it's already one of the best." There can only be one and it isn't SA. It's firmly #3. And if you're complaining that a spammable has too many advantages, I expect to see a Puncturing Strikes complaint thread soon.

I'll break this down again. Our class is built for burst damage and yet our toolkit is quite behind other classes in damage output. This is because we were balanced around a dozen proc sets that USED to work on NB. Most of them have been altered to no longer work on NB.

Maybe they're making this changes to see where our damage goes, and if it looks right they'll take a look at Caluurions. But no, some players would rather NB get shelved all together because we interrupt duals or burn your lancer.

There are players who just want to stand on one spot and spam a single attack over and over without fearing getting flanked. They will continue to be disappointment or learn how to defend. The amount of people I know who run flare for the protection but won't keep it under their feet while on a meat bag is hilarious.

No. Merciless is easy to avoid is the issue with nb burst, not suprise attack not hitting hard enough.
As for jabs, it's still the only spammable where you can literally just walk sideways and avoid it, and it got nerfed by 40% btw.
This buff to sa is completely unnecessary.
And again, we have been down this path before, zos buffs a skill that doesnt need buffing and they will nerf it just as hard soon enough, rather than addressing the actual problems.
Since you brought up templar, I have asked for so long that zos makes dark flare into a decent spammable and yet they instead nerfed its damage many times over and made burning light practically only proc on jabs, which was just as stupid as this buff would be.
They made living dark into this disgusting self heal that for a while was so strong that you barely had to run any other healing skill, and guess what, now it ticks for 900 hp and a lot of people still think it's too strong.
This kind of over buffing creates very unhealthy gameplay, just like oaken did to this patch, because the meta is so much stronger than anything else that you feel crippled for not going along with it.
So yeah they will overbuff nbs and people will flock to it, and others will complain, when zos could try to actually balance their game for once.

DrSlaughtr

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

You guys do realize that Caluurions is nuked for NBs on the pts, right? That's why our skill damage was increased. They didn't put it in the notes.

There are other proc sets. Flame blossom comes to mind as a good alternative. Caluurions was overloaded anyways.

Every other option pales in comparison. Flame and mad tinkerer both miss more often than hit because of the way they work. They don't heat seek the target. Scavenging demise only procs off crit poison damage and takes 2 seconds to show up.

You can't cut our main damage set's tooltip I in half and not buff our damage elsewhere.

MetallicMonk

NB hits hard enough without caluurions or other procs, especially if you build into crit damage. Seems like a lot of uinformed people who specifically only gank lmao.

NB spammable was already literally one of the hardest hitting if not the hardest hitting in the game if you had a good build, absurd change from a PvP perspective.

Fhritz

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

You guys do realize that Caluurions is nuked for NBs on the pts, right? That's why our skill damage was increased. They didn't put it in the notes.

There are other proc sets. Flame blossom comes to mind as a good alternative. Caluurions was overloaded anyways.

Shadow of the red mountain is basically soft Caluurion (~1k difference with 2 sec shorter cooldown). Way of fire also have a great dps (4k/2 sec), but is more aimed for pressure rather than gank

CameraBeardThePirate

ninjagank wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

You guys do realize that Caluurions is nuked for NBs on the pts, right? That's why our skill damage was increased. They didn't put it in the notes.

There are other proc sets. Flame blossom comes to mind as a good alternative. Caluurions was overloaded anyways.

Every other option pales in comparison. Flame and mad tinkerer both miss more often than hit because of the way they work. They don't heat seek the target. Scavenging demise only procs off crit poison damage and takes 2 seconds to show up.

You can't cut our main damage set's tooltip I in half and not buff our damage elsewhere.

You shouldn't be missing flame blossom on a gank. It procs on the first heavy attack out of stealth and will hit before the enemy breaks free.

DrSlaughtr

Fhritz wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

You guys do realize that Caluurions is nuked for NBs on the pts, right? That's why our skill damage was increased. They didn't put it in the notes.

There are other proc sets. Flame blossom comes to mind as a good alternative. Caluurions was overloaded anyways.

Shadow of the red mountain is basically soft Caluurion (~1k difference with 2 sec shorter cooldown). Way of fire also have a great dps (4k/2 sec), but is more aimed for pressure rather than gank

Red mountain is a big giant red flare coming out of a volcano with a big travel time. The only proc set with a worse chance to hit is coldharbour's favorite.

MetallicMonk wrote: »

NB hits hard enough without caluurions or other procs, especially if you build into crit damage. Seems like a lot of uinformed people who specifically only gank lmao.

NB spammable was already literally one of the hardest hitting if not the hardest hitting in the game if you had a good build, absurd change from a PvP perspective.

It's not the hardest hitting as is. Can we really still using "one of the best of" when there are only 6 classes? Being in the 66th percentile isn't the same as being number one. It's #3 behind Puncturing and whip on live.

When the meta is high healing, high mitigation classes, which won't change, then the high burst, low survivability class needs to have the damage to compete. Just blowing up your crit damage with a set like wrath with a damage set like stygian isn't, in the current live game, enough output to attack a magDK or templar of equal skill level UNLESS you're running oakensoul.

People have been screaming about Caluurions forever. Now they're nerfing it so we gotta complain about SA getting a flank crit when it already crits more often than not anyway and you can just counter it by moving correctly.

MetallicMonk

ninjagank wrote: »

Fhritz wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

You guys do realize that Caluurions is nuked for NBs on the pts, right? That's why our skill damage was increased. They didn't put it in the notes.

There are other proc sets. Flame blossom comes to mind as a good alternative. Caluurions was overloaded anyways.

Shadow of the red mountain is basically soft Caluurion (~1k difference with 2 sec shorter cooldown). Way of fire also have a great dps (4k/2 sec), but is more aimed for pressure rather than gank

Red mountain is a big giant red flare coming out of a volcano with a big travel time. The only proc set with a worse chance to hit is coldharbour's favorite.

MetallicMonk wrote: »

NB hits hard enough without caluurions or other procs, especially if you build into crit damage. Seems like a lot of uinformed people who specifically only gank lmao.

NB spammable was already literally one of the hardest hitting if not the hardest hitting in the game if you had a good build, absurd change from a PvP perspective.

It's not the hardest hitting as is. Can we really still using "one of the best of" when there are only 6 classes? Being in the 66th percentile isn't the same as being number one. It's #3 behind Puncturing and whip on live.

When the meta is high healing, high mitigation classes, which won't change, then the high burst, low survivability class needs to have the damage to compete. Just blowing up your crit damage with a set like wrath with a damage set like stygian isn't, in the current live game, enough output to attack a magDK or templar of equal skill level UNLESS you're running oakensoul.

People have been screaming about Caluurions forever. Now they're nerfing it so we gotta complain about SA getting a flank crit when it already crits more often than not anyway and you can just counter it by moving correctly.

Seems like you didn't even read what I wrote, caluurions wasn't the only way nb had damage, surprise attack hits as hard as some classes burst abilities and it's their spammable. Do you really think because they nerfed a set that wasn't even needed to begin with on nb to do damage, that they needed an ability that did not need a buff to be brought up even more? That's just disingenuous.

It stuns, has an incredibly high tooltip, sunders, sets off balance, and now will crit constantly. Not to mention the fact eso just can not read positional requirements well at all, the server and positional desync does not allow it, it's why you get stunned by surprise attack whether it's behind you or not and it's why this will now crit randomly whether they're flanking or not.

React

ninjagank wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

You guys do realize that Caluurions is nuked for NBs on the pts, right? That's why our skill damage was increased. They didn't put it in the notes.

There are other proc sets. Flame blossom comes to mind as a good alternative. Caluurions was overloaded anyways.

Every other option pales in comparison. Flame and mad tinkerer both miss more often than hit because of the way they work. They don't heat seek the target. Scavenging demise only procs off crit poison damage and takes 2 seconds to show up.

You can't cut our main damage set's tooltip I in half and not buff our damage elsewhere.

It's laughable that you're citing a proc set being nerfed as the reason why NB received a completely un-needed buff. It shows that you literally only play the class to gank (although your name suggested as much, anyways). Calu has been in need of a nerf for a long time now.

Additionally, you stating above that the class "doesn't have enough damage" is telling of either your ability with the class, or your knowledge of the damage sets in the game. I was (and still am) playing a non-stealth build that was able to frequently hit 18-20k merciless's. Using invis cloak would only have boosted my damage further via the vampire passive.

Surprise is better than jabs by miles on the PTS as well.

Edit: I should probably add, since you mentioned how NB is "low survivability", that on live it is capable of having the second best healing in the game, and on the PTS using dark cloak (with the changes to all heals) it genuinely has the highest healing in the game.

DrSlaughtr

MetallicMonk wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

Fhritz wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

You guys do realize that Caluurions is nuked for NBs on the pts, right? That's why our skill damage was increased. They didn't put it in the notes.

There are other proc sets. Flame blossom comes to mind as a good alternative. Caluurions was overloaded anyways.

Shadow of the red mountain is basically soft Caluurion (~1k difference with 2 sec shorter cooldown). Way of fire also have a great dps (4k/2 sec), but is more aimed for pressure rather than gank

Red mountain is a big giant red flare coming out of a volcano with a big travel time. The only proc set with a worse chance to hit is coldharbour's favorite.

MetallicMonk wrote: »

NB hits hard enough without caluurions or other procs, especially if you build into crit damage. Seems like a lot of uinformed people who specifically only gank lmao.

NB spammable was already literally one of the hardest hitting if not the hardest hitting in the game if you had a good build, absurd change from a PvP perspective.

It's not the hardest hitting as is. Can we really still using "one of the best of" when there are only 6 classes? Being in the 66th percentile isn't the same as being number one. It's #3 behind Puncturing and whip on live.

When the meta is high healing, high mitigation classes, which won't change, then the high burst, low survivability class needs to have the damage to compete. Just blowing up your crit damage with a set like wrath with a damage set like stygian isn't, in the current live game, enough output to attack a magDK or templar of equal skill level UNLESS you're running oakensoul.

People have been screaming about Caluurions forever. Now they're nerfing it so we gotta complain about SA getting a flank crit when it already crits more often than not anyway and you can just counter it by moving correctly.

Seems like you didn't even read what I wrote, caluurions wasn't the only way nb had damage, surprise attack hits as hard as some classes burst abilities and it's their spammable. Do you really think because they nerfed a set that wasn't even needed to begin with on nb to do damage, that they needed an ability that did not need a buff to be brought up even more? That's just disingenuous.

It stuns, has an incredibly high tooltip, sunders, sets off balance, and now will crit constantly. Not to mention the fact eso just can not read positional requirements well at all, the server and positional desync does not allow it, it's why you get stunned by surprise attack whether it's behind you or not and it's why this will now crit randomly whether they're flanking or not.

One, you're already stunning from stealth. Most NB CC's are from stealth, not the cc attached to SA or Incap. If you're hit from a cloaked NB, that's the CC that hits you. The SA and incap CC's are useful when chasing people down out of cloak.

Two, its damage is less than whip and jabs.

Three, it will not crit constantly. It will only crit from flank. So if your NB leads with a heavy attack, you'll get the one SA crit from flank but most people will still go incap/soul after the heavy because it's a lot more damage. So now you have 1.5 seconds after the heavy to move to counter flank.

If you lead with SA rather than a heavy, you're going to crit anyway.

I'd understand this reaction if they were putting a 10% crit DAMAGE buff to the skill. All this is going doing is give you a little better consistency on your damage. People acting like they brought back Mechanical.

Everything else you said is a.server side issue that can happen with any CC in the game.

MetallicMonk

ninjagank wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

Fhritz wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

You guys do realize that Caluurions is nuked for NBs on the pts, right? That's why our skill damage was increased. They didn't put it in the notes.

There are other proc sets. Flame blossom comes to mind as a good alternative. Caluurions was overloaded anyways.

Shadow of the red mountain is basically soft Caluurion (~1k difference with 2 sec shorter cooldown). Way of fire also have a great dps (4k/2 sec), but is more aimed for pressure rather than gank

Red mountain is a big giant red flare coming out of a volcano with a big travel time. The only proc set with a worse chance to hit is coldharbour's favorite.

MetallicMonk wrote: »

NB hits hard enough without caluurions or other procs, especially if you build into crit damage. Seems like a lot of uinformed people who specifically only gank lmao.

NB spammable was already literally one of the hardest hitting if not the hardest hitting in the game if you had a good build, absurd change from a PvP perspective.

It's not the hardest hitting as is. Can we really still using "one of the best of" when there are only 6 classes? Being in the 66th percentile isn't the same as being number one. It's #3 behind Puncturing and whip on live.

When the meta is high healing, high mitigation classes, which won't change, then the high burst, low survivability class needs to have the damage to compete. Just blowing up your crit damage with a set like wrath with a damage set like stygian isn't, in the current live game, enough output to attack a magDK or templar of equal skill level UNLESS you're running oakensoul.

People have been screaming about Caluurions forever. Now they're nerfing it so we gotta complain about SA getting a flank crit when it already crits more often than not anyway and you can just counter it by moving correctly.

Seems like you didn't even read what I wrote, caluurions wasn't the only way nb had damage, surprise attack hits as hard as some classes burst abilities and it's their spammable. Do you really think because they nerfed a set that wasn't even needed to begin with on nb to do damage, that they needed an ability that did not need a buff to be brought up even more? That's just disingenuous.

It stuns, has an incredibly high tooltip, sunders, sets off balance, and now will crit constantly. Not to mention the fact eso just can not read positional requirements well at all, the server and positional desync does not allow it, it's why you get stunned by surprise attack whether it's behind you or not and it's why this will now crit randomly whether they're flanking or not.

One, you're already stunning from stealth. Most NB CC's are from stealth, not the cc attached to SA or Incap. If you're hit from a cloaked NB, that's the CC that hits you. The SA and incap CC's are useful when chasing people down out of cloak.

Two, its damage is less than whip and jabs.

Three, it will not crit constantly. It will only crit from flank. So if your NB leads with a heavy attack, you'll get the one SA crit from flank but most people will still go incap/soul after the heavy because it's a lot more damage. So now you have 1.5 seconds after the heavy to move to counter flank.

If you lead with SA rather than a heavy, you're going to crit anyway.

I'd understand this reaction if they were putting a 10% crit DAMAGE buff to the skill. All this is going doing is give you a little better consistency on your damage. People acting like they brought back Mechanical.

Everything else you said is a.server side issue that can happen with any CC in the game.

Surprise attack hits harder than jabs and whip unless it's a triple stacked molten whip or corrosive is up, so wrong.

Also it will not only crit from the flank because as I previously started ESO can not read positional requirements on moving targets, it just does not work. It's not going to crit 100% of the time but it will randomly crit quite often, so wrong again.

I'm still looking for the justification that one of the highest damage, burstiest classes in the game needed a damage boost besides the fact a set that most good nightblades don't even use got nerfed.