regeneration changes and pvp feedback

silentxthreat

Regeneration: Reduced the healing per tick of this ability and its morphs by 40%.
Rapid Regeneration (morph): This morph now also increases healing done by up to 50% on targets under 100% Health.

I think this is a really good change overall but in pvp its been abused by groups years having every member in the raid of 20+ player raids spam it Rapid Regeneration (morph). These all stack where the group is almost impossible to kill by normal pick up groups or by a single player through the amount of healing because every rapid regen cast stacks. Even though lag in large scale pvp is better its still very noticeable when these groups are around and I do believe its because the spam of these type of spells

I propose we nerf regeneration and other like spells to not stack. If you apply this spell to your self or someone else they only get one hot not 30 from all members

Wolfpaw

I know, how about groups have to collect firewood and cloth to build a fire/tent and rest for 5 min to heal.

Would that help players who choose to solo in group content?

doesurmindglow

It's gonna have the opposite of the intended effect. It'll buff ball groups while depriving pug zergs of most of their healing.

But I'm not really gonna say much more about it this time, or explain why. I'm just gonna let it play out and enjoy.

jaws343

The biggest problem with the nerf that I see is that even solo players were running this morph due to its reliability. The rapid regen morph hit too few targets to be reliable for a self heal. The radiating morph hits more targets and heals less, but is more likely to heal yourself with it. So it was the better solo morph to run.

Now, it will hurt solo players more to run the morph, and the rapid morph is still unreliable, but now, groups will switch to it, and have greater healing.

WreckfulAbandon

This change does nothing to curb the power of ball groups and only incentivizes running in a ball group more as most sources of healing have been nerfed, except of course for heal stacking.

MentalxHammer

Radiating regeneration was the real culprit of ball group HOT stacking, I’m for this change as rapid regen is still adequate for solo play. Ball groups may switch to using rapid regeneration, but now the HOT won’t constantly be ticking on numerous group members at once, but rather only a few that are taking damage.

Radiating regen was a problem because every ball group member was being overhealed with 3-4 HOTs so their HP bars couldn’t be moved, now this won’t be the case.

Wolfpaw

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

This change does nothing to curb the power of ball groups and only incentivizes running in a ball group more as most sources of healing have been nerfed, except of course for heal stacking.

Cyrodiil is group content.

doesurmindglow

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

This change does nothing to curb the power of ball groups and only incentivizes running in a ball group more as most sources of healing have been nerfed, except of course for heal stacking.

It not only fails to curb their power, it actively makes them stronger, especially when fighting against larger groups of less optimized players who now just have less heals. But most people seem to be under the hilarious impression that only ball groups benefit from healing over time currently, so I'm content to let this play out.

Durham

Wolfpaw wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

This change does nothing to curb the power of ball groups and only incentivizes running in a ball group more as most sources of healing have been nerfed, except of course for heal stacking.

Cyrodiil is group content.

Yes but ball grouping has hurt the game for years. They have tried for years to break up that style of play. However each time they try they fail lol. This patch seems like they will have to make some major adjustments next patch.

Running 4 mans and 6 mans and assisting/ bombing and actually knowing who you kill adds so much more dept to the PVP experience.

Wolfpaw

Durham wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

This change does nothing to curb the power of ball groups and only incentivizes running in a ball group more as most sources of healing have been nerfed, except of course for heal stacking.

Cyrodiil is group content.

Yes but ball grouping has hurt the game for years. They have tried for years to break up that style of play. However each time they try they fail lol. This patch seems like they will have to make some major adjustments next patch.

Running 4 mans and 6 mans and assisting/ bombing and actually knowing who you kill adds so much more dept to the PVP experience.

Looks to me ZOS has been improving organized group play for years, not break it up.

4-6 player groups imo just run around rocks & towers while running 1vX builds that encompass dd/tank/heals in one build, killing unorganized solo players. Different perspectives I suppose.

Didgerion

silentxthreat wrote: »

Regeneration: Reduced the healing per tick of this ability and its morphs by 40%.
Rapid Regeneration (morph): This morph now also increases healing done by up to 50% on targets under 100% Health.

I think this is a really good change overall but in pvp its been abused by groups years having every member in the raid of 20+ player raids spam it Rapid Regeneration (morph). These all stack where the group is almost impossible to kill by normal pick up groups or by a single player through the amount of healing because every rapid regen cast stacks. Even though lag in large scale pvp is better its still very noticeable when these groups are around and I do believe its because the spam of these type of spells

I propose we nerf regeneration and other like spells to not stack. If you apply this spell to your self or someone else they only get one hot not 30 from all members

There is nothing wrong for big groups being strong and immortal.

What is wrong is that these groups are extremely efficient on the Cyrodiil map. If 2 players could quickly undo what a group of 20 are doing then 20 players would have to split, half would protect the keep they just took and half would take another keep.

Does it make any sense?

doesurmindglow

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Looks to me ZOS has been improving organized group play for years, not break it up.

4-6 player groups are still groups. They have a lot more in common with ball groups than they really like to admit. Most ball groups *are* 4-6 man groups short of the 2 nights/whatever a week that they are organized for a full raid.

But what I think he's saying is "they try but they fail." Which for some reason in the forums' bizarro world doesn't get applied going forward, only backward. "Like yes, they've tried many times and failed every single time; but this time, this time they will succeed" tends to be the prevailing wisdom out here, which I've come to believe is so hilarious I no even longer bother trying to explain why a specific change will not do what it's imagined it will do.

Didgerion

Wolfpaw wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

This change does nothing to curb the power of ball groups and only incentivizes running in a ball group more as most sources of healing have been nerfed, except of course for heal stacking.

Cyrodiil is group content.

So is the soccer game. But for some reason a team won't get away with all 11 players attacking then all 11 players defending. Something is clearly wrong with Cyrodiil if all the players of one faction can form one big zerg group and claim the map.

Wolfpaw

doesurmindglow wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Looks to me ZOS has been improving organized group play for years, not break it up.

4-6 player groups are still groups. They have a lot more in common with ball groups than they really like to admit. Most ball groups *are* 4-6 man groups short of the 2 nights/whatever a week that they are organized for a full raid.

But what I think he's saying is "they try but they fail." Which for some reason in the forums' bizarro world doesn't get applied going forward, only backward. "Like yes, they've tried many times and failed every single time; but this time, this time they will succeed" tends to be the prevailing wisdom out here, which I've come to believe is so hilarious I no even longer bother trying to explain why a specific change will not do what it's imagined it will do.

In a way I agree with you, the community looks at all these changes over the years and (some) realize it hurts unorganized players harder than a organized group.

But this idea that ZOS is trying to break organized "ball" groups is false imo, I think, assume, ZOS is trying to reduce the gap of vet organized groups and new/inexperienced groups.

I rather have more organized groups in Cyrodiil to fight, not less, and I do mean fight not steam roll.

I love large player pops, I love them more when I have to work for it though.

divnyi

Buffs vamp3 even more. IDK I don't like this "more healing the less hp" thing, it was ok on one DK skill, we don't need every skill to be that.

xylena_lazarow

Wolfpaw wrote: »

I know, how about groups have to collect firewood and cloth to build a fire/tent and rest for 5 min to heal.

Immersion achieved. Seriously though, how about instead of healing for an hour wall running, the ball group wipes the zerg and takes the objective, then moves to the next objective. Don't worry, pugs still won't be able to hurt you.

Wolfpaw

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

I know, how about groups have to collect firewood and cloth to build a fire/tent and rest for 5 min to heal.

Immersion achieved. Seriously though, how about instead of healing for an hour wall running, the ball group wipes the zerg and takes the objective, then moves to the next objective. Don't worry, pugs still won't be able to hurt you.

If the ball group is not flipping flags/objective it's no loss to your points.

Stop sending half you're faction to that keep and starve them.

Send your faction's special forces to ball vs ball.

Play the map, if that ball group is busy you don't have to worry about them.

Go deep and pull them off.

Just saying options are there, also a ball group not playing the map/campaign is a good thing for your faction.

neferpitou73

Inb4. “Nerf BoR” threads

Thecompton73

Didgerion wrote: »

silentxthreat wrote: »

Regeneration: Reduced the healing per tick of this ability and its morphs by 40%.
Rapid Regeneration (morph): This morph now also increases healing done by up to 50% on targets under 100% Health.

I think this is a really good change overall but in pvp its been abused by groups years having every member in the raid of 20+ player raids spam it Rapid Regeneration (morph). These all stack where the group is almost impossible to kill by normal pick up groups or by a single player through the amount of healing because every rapid regen cast stacks. Even though lag in large scale pvp is better its still very noticeable when these groups are around and I do believe its because the spam of these type of spells

I propose we nerf regeneration and other like spells to not stack. If you apply this spell to your self or someone else they only get one hot not 30 from all members

There is nothing wrong for big groups being strong and immortal.

What is wrong is that these groups are extremely efficient on the Cyrodiil map. If 2 players could quickly undo what a group of 20 are doing then 20 players would have to split, half would protect the keep they just took and half would take another keep.

Does it make any sense?

Your mistake is you're assuming that the immortal ball groups care about the campaign score. Most of those ball groups only care about drawing attention and farming players and couldn't care less if their faction loses all it's keeps while they have their "fun".

Cuddlypuff

It won't be a negligible nerf but it is pretty trivial in the whole scheme of farming ball groups. The two things that keep ball groups alive are still Snow Treaders and Earthgore. Pugs don't know this and complain about HOTS instead. The average ball group transitioning off ground HOTS will be wiped by 1-2 DD even with existing OP heal numbers.

Tendoshii

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

This change does nothing to curb the power of ball groups and only incentivizes running in a ball group more as most sources of healing have been nerfed, except of course for heal stacking.

Cyrodiil is group content.

Yes but ball grouping has hurt the game for years. They have tried for years to break up that style of play. However each time they try they fail lol. This patch seems like they will have to make some major adjustments next patch.

Running 4 mans and 6 mans and assisting/ bombing and actually knowing who you kill adds so much more dept to the PVP experience.

Looks to me ZOS has been improving organized group play for years, not break it up.

4-6 player groups imo just run around rocks & towers while running 1vX builds that encompass dd/tank/heals in one build, killing unorganized solo players. Different perspectives I suppose.

They’ve routinely stated they're trying to break it up, but in a show of their understanding of game balance and the game itself, they’ve done the exact opposite.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

But most people seem to be under the hilarious impression that only ball groups benefit from healing over time currently, so I'm content to let this play out.[/quote]

nobody is under the impression only balls benefit from hots LOL they just benefit much more from hot stacking: an organized group of 12 with 10 back bar spamming radiating will all have more hots up on each player than a random group of 20 pugs with a bunch in stam builds and solo builds with no cross heals. If there was no hot stacking of the same skill and it refreshed the time instead, everyone would actually have the same amount on them. that would easily be a 15-20k hps nerf to some groups while a much smaller nerf to unorganized groups that might, if they are lucky, have 2-3 rapid regen instead of 8-12

doesurmindglow

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

nobody is under the impression only balls benefit from hots LOL they just benefit much more from hot stacking: an organized group of 12 with 10 back bar spamming radiating will all have more hots up on each player than a random group of 20 pugs with a bunch in stam builds and solo builds with no cross heals. If there was no hot stacking of the same skill and it refreshed the time instead, everyone would actually have the same amount on them. that would easily be a 15-20k hps nerf to some groups while a much smaller nerf to unorganized groups that might, if they are lucky, have 2-3 rapid regen instead of 8-12

Yeah the thing is: They don't benefit from HOT stacking, not really. They benefit from adapting rapidly. HOT stacking is an adaptation they devised because a lot of people demanded they nerf purge, which they did. Another adaptation will follow this one, and people will be back here demanding they must now nerf that also.

Let's cut to the chase: "Ball groups" have already adapted to these changes. Most of them have been testing and gearing damage shields and high ulti gen setups for several weeks already. Some are going to 40k health across the board. Many of them have already replaced the missing HPS by this afternoon. The ones that haven't have alternatives in mind.

Less optimized groups might get around to realizing they've lost a lot of their healing maybe a week or two after the patch goes live, if ever.

But like how Plaguebreak was finally going to get rid of ball groups for good, no one will listen to me this time either. So I guess we'll just see how this plays out.

doesurmindglow

All of the claims that are made about HOT stacking are based in the false and uncreative assumption that there wouldn't be any alternative to HOT stacking if it was not as strong, and I promise you -- with as much certainty as I predicted (accurately!) that Plaguebreak would buff ball groups in actual practice -- there already is one.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

doesurmindglow wrote: »

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

nobody is under the impression only balls benefit from hots LOL they just benefit much more from hot stacking: an organized group of 12 with 10 back bar spamming radiating will all have more hots up on each player than a random group of 20 pugs with a bunch in stam builds and solo builds with no cross heals. If there was no hot stacking of the same skill and it refreshed the time instead, everyone would actually have the same amount on them. that would easily be a 15-20k hps nerf to some groups while a much smaller nerf to unorganized groups that might, if they are lucky, have 2-3 rapid regen instead of 8-12

Yeah the thing is: They don't benefit from HOT stacking, not really. They benefit from adapting rapidly. HOT stacking is an adaptation they devised because a lot of people demanded they nerf purge, which they did. Another adaptation will follow this one, and people will be back here demanding they must now nerf that also.

Let's cut to the chase: "Ball groups" have already adapted to these changes. Most of them have been testing and gearing damage shields and high ulti gen setups for several weeks already. Some are going to 40k health across the board. Many of them have already replaced the missing HPS by this afternoon. The ones that haven't have alternatives in mind.

Less optimized groups might get around to realizing they've lost a lot of their healing maybe a week or two after the patch goes live, if ever.

But like how Plaguebreak was finally going to get rid of ball groups for good, no one will listen to me this time either. So I guess we'll just see how this plays out.

so your saying its impossible for something that ball groups use to be imbalanced because they will find something else strong if its adjusted. do you not understand the flaw in logic... plaguebreak is not overperforming, all the ball groups are stronger and they will just change sets if it changes too much, nothing to see here LOL for real?
Look, i understand and completely agree with what your saying, competitive players are the best at finding things that are overtuned and abusing it and they will adapt very quickly; this however has zero to do with if what is being used is balanced and good for the game or unbalanced and causing isssues.

Sandman929

HoT stacking needs to be addressed not to deal with ball groups, but because it's a mechanic that leads to an imbalance in the game. Just like in small scale, when healing outweighs damage we have an imbalanced environment where players can't die, or require a heroic effort or just plain bad server luck to die.
This isn't healthy and ZOS has left it this way, presumably, for the sake of PvE encounters where this stacked overhealing is necessary. I don't expect anything to be done at this point, but IMO it was never a vendetta against ball groups, it's just a bad mechanic that shouldn't exist.
Organized would still beat disorganized often without it, but that's not a reason to leave it as is.

doesurmindglow

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

so your saying its impossible for something that ball groups use to be imbalanced because they will find something else strong if its adjusted. do you not understand the flaw in logic... plaguebreak is not overperforming, all the ball groups are stronger and they will just change sets if it changes too much, nothing to see here LOL for real?
Look, i understand and completely agree with what your saying, competitive players are the best at finding things that are overtuned and abusing it and they will adapt very quickly; this however has zero to do with if what is being used is balanced and good for the game or unbalanced and causing isssues.

No, that's not what I'm saying, but I see how pretending that's what I'm saying makes for an easier argument.

I used Plaguebreak as an example because it shows how easily changes this narrowly focused and poorly thought-out result in the opposite of the intended effect: Plaguebreak not only failed to "stop" ball groups or address the imbalanced mechanics they exploit, it actively added a new imbalanced mechanic for them to exploit. Put simply, they switched from compositions with a dedicated purge healer to compositions with many healers stacking heal over time, and now are using Plaguebreak to get easy kills on less organized groups that don't or can't do that.

Trying to go after specifically one or two heal over time abilities will end exactly the same way. It already has.

I would like to see a different, more comprehensive, and more thoughtful approach to balance in PVP, not "nerf this" and then "nerf that" and then "nerf that" with no real change in outcome. If you're interested in my alternatives you can read through the many warnings I've issued on this topic in the last couple years, as I've offered them before with no traction.

But nerfing RR won't actually do what you think it does. It'll do the opposite.

doesurmindglow

Here's a detailed explanation of why, I can't be bothered to rewrite it for people who refuse to listen anyway so I'm just reposting here:

I mean I keep trying to explain this to people but no one wants to listen to me about it. They just keep believing what they believe despite clear information to the contrary that's based in years of experience healing ball groups and putting together ball group compositions.

But trying one more time, I guess, because I'm unreasonably patient: the issue isn't actually with healing or healing stacks in PVP. That's the part everyone "sees" so they think it's the issue. The issue is actually with damage, or simply that a group only needs 3 or 4 dedicated damage dealers to put up insane damage capable of nuking much larger groups, many times outnumbering them 3:1 or 4:1. Further, even these damage dealers can afford to be "off-healers" while still retaining that massive and way overtuned killing power.

Being able to bring so few people in the damage role as a result means more are able to be dedicated healers and supports. This is how and why they actually get their "too many stacks."

The problem is nerfing just the healing without even slightly touching the damage is that it firstly has unforeseen and poorly thought out consequences for other aspects of the game, such as PVE, and also that it reduces the survivability of everyone in PVP, meaning that the already obscene damage will get even worse.

As a result, no one is ready for the actual outcome: That the groups will be able to take advantage of the reduced healing of all players to now drop to only two or three damage dealers, and add yet another healer or support role to make up for any HPS loss, or alternatively, will be able to lose a damage buff set and swap in a healing or damage shield or ultimate generation buff set to cover that difference. These are both very easy adjustments to make and most of the groups in question have already made them in the time since the patch notes were released.

I'm all for a limit on the number of stacks you can have as a better solution to this problem that wouldn't as adversely impact PVE, but I know for a fact it will not do what people think it does in PVP, and it will result in the opposite of the intended effect. But it would likely address the OP's concerns somewhat, so I guess I'd welcome that.

divnyi

It's always incredibly fun to see how ball players defend their 9 Resolving Vigors of cross-heal HoTs, saying that this is not what carries ball groups and that we don't understand anything.

doesurmindglow

I'm not defending it. I'm even on record here saying cutting down the number of stacks is a good idea. Literally agreeing.

But it's not what carries ball groups and you don't understand anything.

doesurmindglow

For reference, here is what you said on my post about the last round of ball group nerfs that became buffs:



You were wrong then and you're wrong now.