PTS Update 35 - Feedback Thread for Combat Balance Changes

Tsukyme

Why fix BOTs problem on consoles when you can just nerf everyone and destroy the game again right?
GG

DLM

prof_doom wrote: »

A good explanation of why healing is a problem in the new patch

And this also doesn't take into consideration the fact that less healing power means that you need to spam more heals, hence crippling your resources even more... except that heavy attacks are going to give less resources. There, you have a healer that is already underperforming with no more resource to perform anything.

emilyhyoyeon

I run pug vet pledges consistently. These are the casts of one of my DDs today:



This is not an outlier. DDs in my pugs regularly have casts like this. This is the average damage of their light attacks:



5.6k damage light attacks. Based on the current PTS changes, this player will be heavily nerfed next patch. I was the tank in this group today, and pulled 700 dps less than this player (I was in a full tank setup).

https://www.esologs.com/reports/4y6xwfMj8kGYWhAB/#fight=last&type=summary&translate=true

Darkstorne

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I run pug vet pledges consistently. These are the casts of one of my DDs today:



This is not an outlier. DDs in my pugs regularly have casts like this. This is the average damage of their light attacks:



5.6k damage light attacks. Based on the current PTS changes, this player will be heavily nerfed next patch. I was the tank in this group today, and pulled 700 dps less than this player in a full tank setup.

https://www.esologs.com/reports/4y6xwfMj8kGYWhAB/#fight=last&type=summary&translate=true

And what really concerns me about standardizing LA/HA damage (aka: nerfing everyone's damage for... reasons) is that it kills a fun part of the game for casual players, and for players like me who enjoy casual builds for questing when I'm not healing vet dungeons.

I have a LA build, with stats and buffs and sets geared towards dealing 10K+ damage with each LA. My skill casts are pre-buffs, and then I LA/HA my way through mobs like it's a single-player TES game because that's fun to do. I don't want to be spamming particle-heavy abilities every single second in combat. I just want to immerse myself in the story and do decent damage with LA/HAs. It's not OP. It's not harming anyone else. It's just fun to do.

I don't know why ZOS think that taking that option away from us, by standardizing and significantly lowering LA/HA damage and preventing it from scaling with anything but crit chance / crit damage, so that not even gear quality (even comparing white to gold) will affect the damage, is a good idea for an RPG. Especially when so many new players focus primarily on LA/HAs with the odd skill cast, and a lot of experienced but casual players resort to a lot of LA/HA swings when they've exhausted their resources for skill casts in boss fights.

Honestly I think if they want to raise the floor they should be increasing LA/HA damage, and they shouldn't be removing LA/HA stat scaling because this is an RPG and that's a fun optional build style they're removing. ZOS could achieve this by having consecutive LAs apply a stacking buff that increases the damage of your next LA by X, stacking up to 5 times, with stacks lost on casting a skill, or consumed by a HA with the HA damage amplified significantly by each stack. Now new and casual players get a buff, and perfect weavers don't (but importantly also don't get nerfed where LAs are concerned). Floor raised for LAs, ceiling stays the same.

I can't find a single thing about these patch notes I like as a StamSorc.
Class skills? Those are nerfed hard.
DOTs and HOTs? Those are nerfed hard.
LA/HA builds? Those are nerfed hard.

terrasight

Troodon80

prof_doom wrote: »

A good explanation of why healing is a problem in the new patch

The article touches on a few things, and it is a problem, but the explanation on how to "fix" this isn't on point.

[...] The intention from Zenimax could be to address power creep by forcing healers to use sets that buff their healing output as opposed to using sets that buff the group's damage output, however if healers are forced to do this then it will be a double whammy for DPS players who will not only have their light attacks [...]

Using sets to buff healing output won't be that meaningful, even sets like Winter's Respite which will also tick every 2 seconds, as in many cases the most severe DoTs don't tick every second or every two seconds, they can tick from anywhere between 0.2s up to 1s (I'm not counting duration here, just tick frequency), with some of them on 1s intervals stacking (e.g. Bleeds from abominations during the Bahsei fight) and ticking either at the same time or at offset intervals.

If the tick frequency change actually does go ahead, then all incoming damage ticks need to be changed to a baseline of 1s and going up to 2s (or higher). All the HPS in the world won't save someone who takes enough damage to kill them between your heal ticks, which can already happen.

As I also said in another post, it also indirectly affects tanks depsite the patch being targeted primarily at HPS and DPS. The effects are so far reaching that, like their initial article stated, this time is going to be absolutely chaotic. I just don't see why ZOS thinks chaos, of all things, will somehow bridge the gap.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I've noticed a problem with the 2s tick frequency on certain abilities that proc enchants. For example, 3 of the most useful enchants are berserker, crusher, and weakening, all 5 second buffs/debuffs which are used along with the infused trait to make the cooldown 5s for full uptime.

I mentioned the same thing over here.

Specifically:
Live uptime

PTS uptime


And this is on a static unmoving target dummy.

Necrotech_Master

Troodon80 wrote: »

prof_doom wrote: »

A good explanation of why healing is a problem in the new patch

The article touches on a few things, and it is a problem, but the explanation on how to "fix" this isn't on point.

[...] The intention from Zenimax could be to address power creep by forcing healers to use sets that buff their healing output as opposed to using sets that buff the group's damage output, however if healers are forced to do this then it will be a double whammy for DPS players who will not only have their light attacks [...]

Using sets to buff healing output won't be that meaningful, even sets like Winter's Respite which will also tick every 2 seconds, as in many cases the most severe DoTs don't tick every second or every two seconds, they can tick from anywhere between 0.2s up to 1s (I'm not counting duration here, just tick frequency), with some of them on 1s intervals stacking (e.g. Bleeds from abominations during the Bahsei fight) and ticking either at the same time or at offset intervals.

If the tick frequency change actually does go ahead, then all incoming damage ticks need to be changed to a baseline of 1s and going up to 2s (or higher). All the HPS in the world won't save someone who takes enough damage to kill them between your heal ticks, which can already happen.

As I also said in another post, it also indirectly affects tanks depsite the patch being targeted primarily at HPS and DPS. The effects are so far reaching that, like their initial article stated, this time is going to be absolutely chaotic. I just don't see why ZOS thinks chaos, of all things, will somehow bridge the gap.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I've noticed a problem with the 2s tick frequency on certain abilities that proc enchants. For example, 3 of the most useful enchants are berserker, crusher, and weakening, all 5 second buffs/debuffs which are used along with the infused trait to make the cooldown 5s for full uptime.

I mentioned the same thing over here.

Specifically:
Live uptime

PTS uptime


And this is on a static unmoving target dummy.

if they "stealth nerfed" ALL dot and hot gear sets (such as winters respite and pillar of nirn that arent even mentioned in the patch notes), yeah this is absolutely going to horrendously kill healing and dot gameplay

dots ticking every 2 sec is horrendously slow, and then to top it off the dmg is down, this is one of the reasons i never ran something like dagger cloak to begin with because its dmg was so low and slow

i looked at the numbers for dagger cloak on my tank build on live, which was about 1650 dmg every 2 sec, which is actually compareable with a DPS spec build of dagger cloak on the PTS, if they make everything this useless, that might end up hurting my dps numbers a lot more than im estimating (im currently estimating around a 15-20% decrease, but if they nerf every dot in the game then im probably gonna be down closer to 25-30%)

MindOfTheSwarm

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

The DoTs take too long to do their total damage. Instead of increasing them to 20s, why not make them all have the same duration instead of having random ones? 10-12 seconds was fine; it kept people on their toes. Eliminatong morphs that increase the duration is going to be necessary. You should replace them with a different bonus. If you made sticky DoTs last 10 seconds, they would retain their viability in PvP. We don't usually use ground DoTs in PvP, so if you made those last longer for PvE and have their damage ramp up every tick, it would make every one happy. Also, if you truly want to make DoTs stronger than HoTs, have the former tick every half second and the latter every second. Two seconds to deal damage is just too slow and sluggish. Having a shorter duration for sticky DoTs than ground DoTs will give PvErs a reason to keep bar swapping, instead of having them glued to their front bar for 20 seconds. There are some mobs in PvE that usually die quickly with a few DoTs and a spammable. But now, since the DoTs take longer to deal their damage, those mobs persist for unnecessary amounts of time. The longer duration for buffs and debuffs is nice in both PvP and PvE. But you're taking away the fast-paced combat that we all got accustomed to over the years. Buffs should last longer than debuffs. 10s duration for debuffs is nice; they're purgeable anyway. Shorter duration for debuffs will force people to keep applying them more frequently, increasing the pace of combat for anyone wanting to go offensive, rather than having it be boring. Same goes for HoTs, 10s duration for sticky HoTs, since they're more reliable than ground HoTs. Having a ramping increase in ground HoTs will make ot more rewarding for standing in them in intense combat scenarios.

You want to flip it the other way around. Ground DoT's need to be the shorter and harder hitting ones. For the simple reason being, that we do not want the 'DoT' meta from before where people would stack sticky DoT's in PvP and melt people with little counter play. ZoS solution at that time was to nerf all DoT's by 60%, and although this made sticky DoT's less threatening it made ground DoT's very underperforming in PvP. That particular nerf should never have touched ground DoT's at all, as they were very useful at zoning areas out back then. On live now, they barely achieve that without stacking them. ZoS solution is to nerf them even more.

The answer is to keep sticky DoT's as they are on live, albeit with a few buffs on particular ones such as Entropy and Poison Injection. But Buff ground DoT's by about 30% per tick. If they want them to tick every 2 seconds that is fine, but keep durations the same or maybe even shorter and have them deal same overall damage as is on live them for powerful zone control.

As an example:

Live Winter's Revenge: 12 seconds and deals about 2000 tooltip damage every second per tick on my toon.

PTS: 20 seconds and deals 800 damage every 2 seconds. That is 400 damage every second. That's an 88% damage nerf.


But imagine if they went the other way with it.

Alternative: Lasts 6 seconds, and deals 3000 damage per second (1500 every 0.5 seconds).

This would be overall less damage, but more power per tick. Also, it's not like you could spam it due to skill costs. But it would mean that you have a nice powerful tool in PVP for holding point. In PVE the devs would still achieve an overall DPS cut due to cooldown on the skill while you switch to backbar and start your rotation again.

However, you could not have this kind of DPS on a sticky due to being able to stick a bunch on target. WIth ground DoT's however it would be ok as a player can move out of them.

The easiest solution is to simply have a new optional CP start that allows for a specialized DoT build at the expense of Direct Damage.

Melzo

I'm happy with this patch. I play as Necro and I hate running after a sorcerer. His damage exceeded my healing by 2 times. And at the same time, I beat him 2 times weaker. Welcome to the bottom bro. I'm incredibly happy that four classes got a hard nerf. And incredibly disappointed that the nb did not receive it. Nb is a dishonest class that renders light armor mechanics useless. To survive, you need to have 25k+ armor. But even with 30 armor, you can still enter the tavern with 3 buttons from the NB. And if you're in light armor, and you have 18k armor and +5 physical damage... I can see my heels glisten away from him. It's just that I can't help but kill and save myself... And they made him stronger against the background of other classes. This is the price of my happiness. Nerf sorcerers and dc in exchange for buffing nb. heh(

Troodon80

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

if they "stealth nerfed" ALL dot and hot gear sets (such as winters respite and pillar of nirn that arent even mentioned in the patch notes), yeah this is absolutely going to horrendously kill healing and dot gameplay

Before we jump to conclusions, Winter's Respite already only ticks for 2 second intervals even on Live and I don't believe Pillar of Nirn has been touched (at least not according to its PTS tooltip). Which doesn't ease the healing aspect which I mentioned previously.

Edited to add:

Pillar of Nirn also ticks for 2s intervals on Live. According to my Combat Metrics, Pillar of Nirn will lose approximately 2.2% DPS from Live to PTS.

Gendizer

I play a heavy attack warden. My dps was 42k. On PTS, my dps became 31k. Also, it became extremely inconvenient to cast deep fissure - torn timings are very disturbing. Dear ZOSs, why are you doing this? Think before it's too late. This update does not solve the problem of weaving, but closes the ability for average players to play difficult content.

MindOfTheSwarm

Melzo wrote: »

I'm happy with this patch. I play as Necro and I hate running after a sorcerer. His damage exceeded my healing by 2 times. And at the same time, I beat him 2 times weaker. Welcome to the bottom bro. I'm incredibly happy that four classes got a hard nerf. And incredibly disappointed that the nb did not receive it. Nb is a dishonest class that renders light armor mechanics useless. To survive, you need to have 25k+ armor. But even with 30 armor, you can still enter the tavern with 3 buttons from the NB. And if you're in light armor, and you have 18k armor and +5 physical damage... I can see my heels glisten away from him. It's just that I can't help but kill and save myself... And they made him stronger against the background of other classes. This is the price of my happiness. Nerf sorcerers and dc in exchange for buffing nb. heh(

Welcome to the bottom?

Necromancer's are monsters in PvP. What are you talking about? Sounds to me you are not playing it right.

NB is dishonest? What do you mean by this?

You mean that you got bursted down from stealth? Yeah, that is what a Nightblade is supposed to do. Serves you right for going off solo and not sticking with your team mates. If it is duels, then that requires a different build set up.

If you want to see how nasty Necro can be then run Dark Convergence with Vicious Death and Boneyard.

Aldoss

Melzo wrote: »

I'm happy with this patch. I play as Necro and I hate running after a sorcerer. His damage exceeded my healing by 2 times. And at the same time, I beat him 2 times weaker. Welcome to the bottom bro. I'm incredibly happy that four classes got a hard nerf. And incredibly disappointed that the nb did not receive it. Nb is a dishonest class that renders light armor mechanics useless. To survive, you need to have 25k+ armor. But even with 30 armor, you can still enter the tavern with 3 buttons from the NB. And if you're in light armor, and you have 18k armor and +5 physical damage... I can see my heels glisten away from him. It's just that I can't help but kill and save myself... And they made him stronger against the background of other classes. This is the price of my happiness. Nerf sorcerers and dc in exchange for buffing nb. heh(

This is a toxic attitude to have. I play a PvP magden, arguably the worst spec right now in that arena. Yes, it's frustrating losing to all sorcs right now, but no class should ever be nerfed as hard as some of these classes are getting nerfed.

If you're happy by this, don't be shocked when you're next on the chopping block, begging for sympathy, but find none.

Melzo

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

I'm happy with this patch. I play as Necro and I hate running after a sorcerer. His damage exceeded my healing by 2 times. And at the same time, I beat him 2 times weaker. Welcome to the bottom bro. I'm incredibly happy that four classes got a hard nerf. And incredibly disappointed that the nb did not receive it. Nb is a dishonest class that renders light armor mechanics useless. To survive, you need to have 25k+ armor. But even with 30 armor, you can still enter the tavern with 3 buttons from the NB. And if you're in light armor, and you have 18k armor and +5 physical damage... I can see my heels glisten away from him. It's just that I can't help but kill and save myself... And they made him stronger against the background of other classes. This is the price of my happiness. Nerf sorcerers and dc in exchange for buffing nb. heh(

Welcome to the bottom?

Necromancer's are monsters in PvP. What are you talking about? Sounds to me you are not playing it right.

NB is dishonest? What do you mean by this?

You mean that you got bursted down from stealth? Yeah, that is what a Nightblade is supposed to do. Serves you right for going off solo and not sticking with your team mates. If it is duels, then that requires a different build set up.

If you want to see how nasty Necro can be then run Dark Convergence with Vicious Death and Boneyard.

I play this build. You can kill a bunch of noobs. But go to the bg there you will not find necromancers... If the crowd of noobs is no problem. But even with 18 ka armor. Another necromancer with the same build won't just kill. Block and goodbye for 3 minutes. Another build?? You're funny. Show me another build?? Any synergy is a bomb build. And it is simply impossible for a friend to play for this class. I played a ranged necromancer and knocked out a set of dogs and built a status effects build. To be nerfed in the next patch. Well thank you.

I have a ping of 250 in Cyro. And I didn’t get the bomb build assembly. I can't play shiro when all the kids are in the game. Only bg and imperial city. And there 1 against 1, 2.3. There are no crowds of noobs there. And there are no necro...

If you can implement your bomb in Cyrodiil, then I can't.(
Absolutely zero variety, and with such good updates, there is nothing in the necromancer other than synergy. You can play a week, a month, a year. But how many players hooked on the necromancer switched to other classes...

Melzo

Aldoss wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

I'm happy with this patch. I play as Necro and I hate running after a sorcerer. His damage exceeded my healing by 2 times. And at the same time, I beat him 2 times weaker. Welcome to the bottom bro. I'm incredibly happy that four classes got a hard nerf. And incredibly disappointed that the nb did not receive it. Nb is a dishonest class that renders light armor mechanics useless. To survive, you need to have 25k+ armor. But even with 30 armor, you can still enter the tavern with 3 buttons from the NB. And if you're in light armor, and you have 18k armor and +5 physical damage... I can see my heels glisten away from him. It's just that I can't help but kill and save myself... And they made him stronger against the background of other classes. This is the price of my happiness. Nerf sorcerers and dc in exchange for buffing nb. heh(

This is a toxic attitude to have. I play a PvP magden, arguably the worst spec right now in that arena. Yes, it's frustrating losing to all sorcs right now, but no class should ever be nerfed as hard as some of these classes are getting nerfed.

If you're happy by this, don't be shocked when you're next on the chopping block, begging for sympathy, but find none.

Hmm. the necromancer has not received a single adequate buff during its existence. Even now, he's been nerfed again. Do you think I'll be disappointed if he gets nerfed again?? hahaha

starkerealm

Melzo wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

I'm happy with this patch. I play as Necro and I hate running after a sorcerer. His damage exceeded my healing by 2 times. And at the same time, I beat him 2 times weaker. Welcome to the bottom bro. I'm incredibly happy that four classes got a hard nerf. And incredibly disappointed that the nb did not receive it. Nb is a dishonest class that renders light armor mechanics useless. To survive, you need to have 25k+ armor. But even with 30 armor, you can still enter the tavern with 3 buttons from the NB. And if you're in light armor, and you have 18k armor and +5 physical damage... I can see my heels glisten away from him. It's just that I can't help but kill and save myself... And they made him stronger against the background of other classes. This is the price of my happiness. Nerf sorcerers and dc in exchange for buffing nb. heh(

This is a toxic attitude to have. I play a PvP magden, arguably the worst spec right now in that arena. Yes, it's frustrating losing to all sorcs right now, but no class should ever be nerfed as hard as some of these classes are getting nerfed.

If you're happy by this, don't be shocked when you're next on the chopping block, begging for sympathy, but find none.

Hmm. the necromancer has not received a single adequate buff during its existence. Even now, he's been nerfed again. Do you think I'll be disappointed if he gets nerfed again?? hahaha

When it was introduced, the Necro was borderline P2W. Like, we were seeing full necro trial teams because of the colossus. They're still one of the top picks for any roll. Necros, straight up, do everything very well.

Mr_Stach

Necros are also Warden, if Wardens were designed well and not nerfed and reworked for 5 years

GetAgrippa

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Necros are also Warden, if Wardens were designed well and not nerfed and reworked for 5 years

Notice how Blastbones was untouched, but the already inferior Scorch was nerfed to the point it's unrecognizable.

silentxthreat

Melzo wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

I'm happy with this patch. I play as Necro and I hate running after a sorcerer. His damage exceeded my healing by 2 times. And at the same time, I beat him 2 times weaker. Welcome to the bottom bro. I'm incredibly happy that four classes got a hard nerf. And incredibly disappointed that the nb did not receive it. Nb is a dishonest class that renders light armor mechanics useless. To survive, you need to have 25k+ armor. But even with 30 armor, you can still enter the tavern with 3 buttons from the NB. And if you're in light armor, and you have 18k armor and +5 physical damage... I can see my heels glisten away from him. It's just that I can't help but kill and save myself... And they made him stronger against the background of other classes. This is the price of my happiness. Nerf sorcerers and dc in exchange for buffing nb. heh(

Welcome to the bottom?

Necromancer's are monsters in PvP. What are you talking about? Sounds to me you are not playing it right.

NB is dishonest? What do you mean by this?

You mean that you got bursted down from stealth? Yeah, that is what a Nightblade is supposed to do. Serves you right for going off solo and not sticking with your team mates. If it is duels, then that requires a different build set up.

If you want to see how nasty Necro can be then run Dark Convergence with Vicious Death and Boneyard.

I play this build. You can kill a bunch of noobs. But go to the bg there you will not find necromancers... If the crowd of noobs is no problem. But even with 18 ka armor. Another necromancer with the same build won't just kill. Block and goodbye for 3 minutes. Another build?? You're funny. Show me another build?? Any synergy is a bomb build. And it is simply impossible for a friend to play for this class. I played a ranged necromancer and knocked out a set of dogs and built a status effects build. To be nerfed in the next patch. Well thank you.

I have a ping of 250 in Cyro. And I didn’t get the bomb build assembly. I can't play shiro when all the kids are in the game. Only bg and imperial city. And there 1 against 1, 2.3. There are no crowds of noobs there. And there are no necro...

If you can implement your bomb in Cyrodiil, then I can't.(
Absolutely zero variety, and with such good updates, there is nothing in the necromancer other than synergy. You can play a week, a month, a year. But how many players hooked on the necromancer switched to other classes...

I would much raver the dev team work on ping performance over these drastic changes. In alaska I'm lucky to have 150 ping while I fight people with maybe 50. Any other game I only have 45 ping

starkerealm

silentxthreat wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

I'm happy with this patch. I play as Necro and I hate running after a sorcerer. His damage exceeded my healing by 2 times. And at the same time, I beat him 2 times weaker. Welcome to the bottom bro. I'm incredibly happy that four classes got a hard nerf. And incredibly disappointed that the nb did not receive it. Nb is a dishonest class that renders light armor mechanics useless. To survive, you need to have 25k+ armor. But even with 30 armor, you can still enter the tavern with 3 buttons from the NB. And if you're in light armor, and you have 18k armor and +5 physical damage... I can see my heels glisten away from him. It's just that I can't help but kill and save myself... And they made him stronger against the background of other classes. This is the price of my happiness. Nerf sorcerers and dc in exchange for buffing nb. heh(

Welcome to the bottom?

Necromancer's are monsters in PvP. What are you talking about? Sounds to me you are not playing it right.

NB is dishonest? What do you mean by this?

You mean that you got bursted down from stealth? Yeah, that is what a Nightblade is supposed to do. Serves you right for going off solo and not sticking with your team mates. If it is duels, then that requires a different build set up.

If you want to see how nasty Necro can be then run Dark Convergence with Vicious Death and Boneyard.

I play this build. You can kill a bunch of noobs. But go to the bg there you will not find necromancers... If the crowd of noobs is no problem. But even with 18 ka armor. Another necromancer with the same build won't just kill. Block and goodbye for 3 minutes. Another build?? You're funny. Show me another build?? Any synergy is a bomb build. And it is simply impossible for a friend to play for this class. I played a ranged necromancer and knocked out a set of dogs and built a status effects build. To be nerfed in the next patch. Well thank you.

I have a ping of 250 in Cyro. And I didn’t get the bomb build assembly. I can't play shiro when all the kids are in the game. Only bg and imperial city. And there 1 against 1, 2.3. There are no crowds of noobs there. And there are no necro...

If you can implement your bomb in Cyrodiil, then I can't.(
Absolutely zero variety, and with such good updates, there is nothing in the necromancer other than synergy. You can play a week, a month, a year. But how many players hooked on the necromancer switched to other classes...

I would much raver the dev team work on ping performance over these drastic changes. In alaska I'm lucky to have 150 ping while I fight people with maybe 50. Any other game I only have 45 ping

Nobody has 50. I do see sub100 sometimes, though.

Mr_Stach

GetAgrippa wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Necros are also Warden, if Wardens were designed well and not nerfed and reworked for 5 years

Notice how Blastbones was untouched, but the already inferior Scorch was nerfed to the point it's unrecognizable.

I mean one thing that Scorch has over BB is I can tell Scorch exactly where to go, I aim and it shoots. BB is like a Drunk Toddler with too much Caffeine sometimes.

KMarble

My numbers after one test on Live and one on PTS. Brain and fingers refused to talk to one another at the beginning. First test on live - a little over 14k. After that a test on PTS - a little over 11k. The "dummy" I used was the WB near Hammerdeath Bungalow.

Wood elf magsorc using the trifood from daily rewards, accompanied by the Tormentor and Bastian set up as a tank (not all his gear is purple).
Mother's Sorrow body (gold), Medusa weapons (gold, but not optimal specs) and jewelry (purple with original specs and *I think* enchants)
Head and shoulders from 2 different monster sets. Both increase crit, neither is optimized for a magsorc. Can't remember their names.

shadyjane62

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

I'm absolutely appalled by the lack of communication. It's pretty clear that people don't like this patch, and yet the only dev replies we get are related to a bugged helmet and some cp glitch. I wonder if they even see our feedback...

Only ones watching are the mods with the snippers.

Bucky Balls

I turned 80 years old last month. The second law of thermodynamics guarantees I function less spectacularly than I did in my youth.

I don't play much post-awa; I am still deeply disappointed that zos chose to steal character specifics so I spend less time/money in game than previously.

I suppose I would be categorised as very casual but thought it might be interesting to test the combat changes. Since I play mostly on eu I don't have as many options on na so just went with my generic templar healer/everything else(spc, bogdan, worm - all gold; crusher lightning staff, mag restore restoration staff(?), magicka regeneration glyphs of jewellery). Combat-wise in game: very rarely normal trial, sometimes vet random dungeons (including dlc/pugs), some overland. I think I may have around 1200cp on na.

I think there are issues with the accuracy of the combat dummy on live which seem to have been fixed on pts. So it's good that parity between combat metrics and dummy parse outputs has been re-established on pts.

I used the 3M dummy for tests as it's what I have on na and is most relevant to me. Test were conducted in the order pts1, live 1-5, pts 2-5 so, arguably, I became more experienced with pts since I had done more parses at that point. I was point blank range during all tests but I have no idea if the -10% light attack dps applied during pts parses simply because I was using magicka staves.

live - note I am including both dummy and combat metrics (cmx) results to show the current discrepancy(I think this is important to identify this potential source of error because otherwise others might misinterpret their own results if purely using the combat dummy stats between live and pts and over-estimate dps loss):

1. 30040 17912[cmx]; LA ratio: 0.63
2. 31890 18604[cmx]; LA ratio: 0.67
3. 33787 19088[cmx]; LA ratio: 0.69
4. 33040 18652[cmx]; LA ratio: 0.71
5. 32543 18450[cmx]; LA ratio: 0.69

averages[live]:

• 32260 18541[cmx]; LA ratio: 0.68
• LA (estimated from cmx) ~4k dps; 3rd in cmx dps contribution list

rotation[live]:

rotation: (i)burn light, lightning wall,
(ii)<SWAP>
(iii)combatP, caltrops, purify light, Lshards
(iv)<SWAP>
(v)4 x sweeps
(vi) loop to (i)

execute: Radiant Oppression (varied from 9-21% dummy health);

realistically <swap> could equal <CRAMP> or <HAND-LOCK> or <PAIN> due to arthritis/other health issues.

other stats[live]:

averaged:

• minor sorcery 95%
• major courage 97%
• major prophecy 90%
• major savagery 90%
• minor protect 84%
• minor resolve/berserk 65%
• major breach 85%
• off-balance 30%
• crusher 35%

pts - again listing both 3M dummy and cmx results; note other than first test, they are the same values:

1. 15285 15296[cmx]; LA ratio: 0.60
2. 16223 16223[cmx]; LA ratio: 0.66
3. 16158 16158[cmx]; LA ratio: 0.77
4. 15256 15256[cmx]; LA ratio: 0.55
5. 15280 15280[cmx]; LA ratio: 0.71

averages[pts]:

• 15640.4 15642.6; LA ratio: 0.64
• LA (estimated from cmx) ~2.8k; 3rd in cmx dps contribution list

Pts rotation was similar to live but, with longer dot durations, more sweep casting while struggling to keep combat prayer minor resolve going - the similarity between live/pts minor resolve/berserk uptimes is because I was consciously trying to 'bar watch' during 3rd and subsequent pts parses.

other stats[pts]:

averaged:

• • minor sorcery 98
  • major courage 95.8
  • major prophecy 98.2
  • major savagery 98.2
  • minor protect 86.2
  • minor resolve/berserk 68.6
  • major breach 95.5
  • off-balance 29.5
  • crusher 36.75

Conclusions:

• So comparing the cmx results (discarding live dummy - I had already put in bug report last patch and believe others have noted this issue, too) I have lost 2898.6 dps going from live to pts (15.6%) .
  
  From Update 35 combat preview:

  ZOS_Gilliam wrote:

  ... The aim is to not harm the low-end experience....

  
  Given that I am probably in low dps (despite doing 40-60% dps in some dungeon runs - mentioned only to illustrate that as weak/low as my healer's dps is, it is not the lowest) range targetted for improvement by this patch I can only conclude that zos has failed in this objective.
• I found sustain was easier on pts than live but less crucial for me since I use high regeneration/sustain anyway; I have considerable concerns about the reduction in resources returned from heavy attacks on pts, though.
• Despite concerns that 2-second ticks may result in less uptimes for the crusher enchantment I can't say I noticed a difference; this probably needs more testing with different enchantments and builds.
• Going forward I would have concerns that ALL healing will essentially be 2-second ticks, particularly since there seems no simple way to measure the impact this will have.

Suggestion:

Keep the longer dots but drop off damage at each 2-second tick to a minimum at ~10 seconds then slowly increment it at a lesser rate for the remaining duration(so that overall its does less dps for the second 10s segment). This will make it optimal for higher dps to recast dots at the 8-12 second range as I understand they currently do on live, while for those of us with less optimal capability and builds we would still see an increase in damage over the duration with less pressure to re-apply the dots. Not sure this would work for healing, though, especially with 2-second ticks.

Thank you.

Necrotech_Master

Troodon80 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

if they "stealth nerfed" ALL dot and hot gear sets (such as winters respite and pillar of nirn that arent even mentioned in the patch notes), yeah this is absolutely going to horrendously kill healing and dot gameplay

Before we jump to conclusions, Winter's Respite already only ticks for 2 second intervals even on Live and I don't believe Pillar of Nirn has been touched (at least not according to its PTS tooltip). Which doesn't ease the healing aspect which I mentioned previously.

Edited to add:

Pillar of Nirn also ticks for 2s intervals on Live. According to my Combat Metrics, Pillar of Nirn will lose approximately 2.2% DPS from Live to PTS.

thats why i was mentioning IF lol

if those already tick at a rate of once per 2 sec, then it may not hurt some of my builds as much as i thought

sheer venom is another one i can think of, that im fairly sure ticks at a rate of once per sec because it generally aligned ticks with poison injection

(i dont have PTS installed or i would do a little more investigating on numerical differences)

Sweetpea704

I wish that you would consider how this effects your veteran players. We need to feel like we have meaningful goals to stay in the game. Also, I've been playing since nearly the beginning. I'm not a spring chicken anymore. Long trials leave my hands literally aching. I moved to a heavy attack build, which helped. I worked my tail off getting Oakensoul and that helped. Then, of course, you nuke my entire build.

Making it take longer for me to do the same content is just not okay. It's not fun. I don't have warm fuzzies of accomplishment. Please reconsider.

Mr_Stach

Bucky Balls wrote: »

I turned 80 years old last month. The second law of thermodynamics guarantees I function less spectacularly than I did in my youth.

I don't play much post-awa; I am still deeply disappointed that zos chose to steal character specifics so I spend less time/money in game than previously.

I suppose I would be categorised as very casual but thought it might be interesting to test the combat changes. Since I play mostly on eu I don't have as many options on na so just went with my generic templar healer/everything else(spc, bogdan, worm - all gold; crusher lightning staff, mag restore restoration staff(?), magicka regeneration glyphs of jewellery). Combat-wise in game: very rarely normal trial, sometimes vet random dungeons (including dlc/pugs), some overland. I think I may have around 1200cp on na.

I think there are issues with the accuracy of the combat dummy on live which seem to have been fixed on pts. So it's good that parity between combat metrics and dummy parse outputs has been re-established on pts.

I used the 3M dummy for tests as it's what I have on na and is most relevant to me. Test were conducted in the order pts1, live 1-5, pts 2-5 so, arguably, I became more experienced with pts since I had done more parses at that point. I was point blank range during all tests but I have no idea if the -10% light attack dps applied during pts parses simply because I was using magicka staves.

live - note I am including both dummy and combat metrics (cmx) results to show the current discrepancy(I think this is important to identify this potential source of error because otherwise others might misinterpret their own results if purely using the combat dummy stats between live and pts and over-estimate dps loss):

1. 30040 17912[cmx]; LA ratio: 0.63
2. 31890 18604[cmx]; LA ratio: 0.67
3. 33787 19088[cmx]; LA ratio: 0.69
4. 33040 18652[cmx]; LA ratio: 0.71
5. 32543 18450[cmx]; LA ratio: 0.69

averages[live]:

• 32260 18541[cmx]; LA ratio: 0.68
• LA (estimated from cmx) ~4k dps; 3rd in cmx dps contribution list

rotation[live]:

rotation: (i)burn light, lightning wall,
(ii)<SWAP>
(iii)combatP, caltrops, purify light, Lshards
(iv)<SWAP>
(v)4 x sweeps
(vi) loop to (i)

execute: Radiant Oppression (varied from 9-21% dummy health);

realistically <swap> could equal <CRAMP> or <HAND-LOCK> or <PAIN> due to arthritis/other health issues.

other stats[live]:

averaged:

• minor sorcery 95%
• major courage 97%
• major prophecy 90%
• major savagery 90%
• minor protect 84%
• minor resolve/berserk 65%
• major breach 85%
• off-balance 30%
• crusher 35%

pts - again listing both 3M dummy and cmx results; note other than first test, they are the same values:

1. 15285 15296[cmx]; LA ratio: 0.60
2. 16223 16223[cmx]; LA ratio: 0.66
3. 16158 16158[cmx]; LA ratio: 0.77
4. 15256 15256[cmx]; LA ratio: 0.55
5. 15280 15280[cmx]; LA ratio: 0.71

averages[pts]:

• 15640.4 15642.6; LA ratio: 0.64
• LA (estimated from cmx) ~2.8k; 3rd in cmx dps contribution list

Pts rotation was similar to live but, with longer dot durations, more sweep casting while struggling to keep combat prayer minor resolve going - the similarity between live/pts minor resolve/berserk uptimes is because I was consciously trying to 'bar watch' during 3rd and subsequent pts parses.

other stats[pts]:

averaged:

• • minor sorcery 98
  • major courage 95.8
  • major prophecy 98.2
  • major savagery 98.2
  • minor protect 86.2
  • minor resolve/berserk 68.6
  • major breach 95.5
  • off-balance 29.5
  • crusher 36.75

Conclusions:

• So comparing the cmx results (discarding live dummy - I had already put in bug report last patch and believe others have noted this issue, too) I have lost 2898.6 dps going from live to pts (15.6%) .
  
  From Update 35 combat preview:

  ZOS_Gilliam wrote:

  ... The aim is to not harm the low-end experience....

  
  Given that I am probably in low dps (despite doing 40-60% dps in some dungeon runs - mentioned only to illustrate that as weak/low as my healer's dps is, it is not the lowest) range targetted for improvement by this patch I can only conclude that zos has failed in this objective.
• I found sustain was easier on pts than live but less crucial for me since I use high regeneration/sustain anyway; I have considerable concerns about the reduction in resources returned from heavy attacks on pts, though.
• Despite concerns that 2-second ticks may result in less uptimes for the crusher enchantment I can't say I noticed a difference; this probably needs more testing with different enchantments and builds.
• Going forward I would have concerns that ALL healing will essentially be 2-second ticks, particularly since there seems no simple way to measure the impact this will have.

Suggestion:

Keep the longer dots but drop off damage at each 2-second tick to a minimum at ~10 seconds then slowly increment it at a lesser rate for the remaining duration(so that overall its does less dps for the second 10s segment). This will make it optimal for higher dps to recast dots at the 8-12 second range as I understand they currently do on live, while for those of us with less optimal capability and builds we would still see an increase in damage over the duration with less pressure to re-apply the dots. Not sure this would work for healing, though, especially with 2-second ticks.

Thank you.

Wow, this is extremely informative for the mid30k DPS Tier of Players. Hopefully Zos can really take your data as well as data from different players to show that it's not just the Top End of the Spectrum that will be suffering.

Thank you for your Work!

GetAgrippa

Sweetpea704 wrote: »

I wish that you would consider how this effects your veteran players.

I don't believe Zos wants veteran players at all anymore. I'm convinced they want all of us gone.

shadyjane62

GetAgrippa wrote: »

Sweetpea704 wrote: »

I wish that you would consider how this effects your veteran players.

I don't believe Zos wants veteran players at all anymore. I'm convinced they want all of us gone.

I'm nowhere near being a top player but I feel they want us gone too.

BlackCatOnline-

Lots of good stuff here. I offer a tip of my imaginary hat and hope zos listens to the wisdom provided. Appreciate the in depth info Mr. Balls.

Also, instead of alternating which classes get to be top dog for the latch, why can't we have an even standard across the board so each class is equal without compromising class identity? Like who's not about to run stamblade next patch? Everyone migrating to whatever class gets to be king of the hill.... It's pretty lame