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Let's Talk about trust
Madhatten512
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I was recently made aware of a tweet put out by a member of the dev team over the proposed light and heavy attack changes. I won't post the entire tweet, but the TLDR was that the community shouldn't have knee jerk reactions to proposed changes, and just trust in the dev team, and Zenimax as a whole to make the right changes.... I am going to do my best to keep this post from getting deleted by moderators because I think this is a discussion that needs to happen. So, let's have a conversation about trust in the dev team when it comes to elder scrolls online.
Firstly, I would like to say trust is earned and after years of being ignored, lied to, and taken advantage of by this company they lost any trust I had in them long ago. Asking the community to "just trust us" is so condescending at this point. Speaking as a member of the pvp community, a portion of the game that has been abandoned by ZOS long ago I have no trust left for this company. I mean in the most recent live stream you couldn't even type "PvP' in the chat without it being removed by moderators. I could list hundreds of ways this company has broken any kind of trust I may have once had, but it would just be a wall of text.
Secondly, let's talk about how things are tested in this game, and how feedback is handled. I do not thing these "knee-jerk" reactions would happen so often if the balance team actually listened to feedback, and paid attention to what testers on the PTS are telling them. A lot of people use to spend hours a day on the PTS testing thing before content drops, but now it is a ghost town. When feedback is constantly ignored, bugs that are caught week 1 of the PTS cycle still go live, and when changes like the light/heavy attack changes are proposed no amount of testing changes the teams mind. So people gave up. Why waste your time. So, you are left with people that lash out when they see a change that they do not agree with. Strictly speaking from a PvP perspective the dev team is completely detached from what is actually going on. That was made clear in the changes to Mag Warden in the last patch. The dev comment about artic blast and shalks being to offensive and to easy to line up the cc with burst has 1 never actually played a Mag Warden and 2 can't PvP all that much.
Lastly, I think we should talk about communication. The dev team member in question really shouldn't be communicating this type of stuff via social media or twitch since there was another incident not long ago. I am not going to go into that further in fear of this post just being taken down, but to me, after the last incident anything that comes out of his mouth comes off as condescending. If we are going to discuss things like trust I think it would help if the combat team came on the forums and actually explained the direction they want to take combat. WIth these wild changes that rework the most basic mechanics of the game every few months no one knows what result they are aiming for. From the outside looking in, to me, it just looks like you are dumbing down combat as much as possible to cater to your target audience. Which is not veteran players that have put time, money, and a whole lot of effort into this game. So open and clear communication could maybe rebuild some of the trust that in my case no longer exists.
<snipped for Baiting>
Edited by ZOS_Hadeostry on July 10, 2022 7:30PM Firstly, I would like to say trust is earned and after years of being ignored, lied to, and taken advantage of by this company they lost any trust I had in them long ago. Asking the community to "just trust us" is so condescending at this point. Speaking as a member of the pvp community, a portion of the game that has been abandoned by ZOS long ago I have no trust left for this company. I mean in the most recent live stream you couldn't even type "PvP' in the chat without it being removed by moderators. I could list hundreds of ways this company has broken any kind of trust I may have once had, but it would just be a wall of text.
Secondly, let's talk about how things are tested in this game, and how feedback is handled. I do not thing these "knee-jerk" reactions would happen so often if the balance team actually listened to feedback, and paid attention to what testers on the PTS are telling them. A lot of people use to spend hours a day on the PTS testing thing before content drops, but now it is a ghost town. When feedback is constantly ignored, bugs that are caught week 1 of the PTS cycle still go live, and when changes like the light/heavy attack changes are proposed no amount of testing changes the teams mind. So people gave up. Why waste your time. So, you are left with people that lash out when they see a change that they do not agree with. Strictly speaking from a PvP perspective the dev team is completely detached from what is actually going on. That was made clear in the changes to Mag Warden in the last patch. The dev comment about artic blast and shalks being to offensive and to easy to line up the cc with burst has 1 never actually played a Mag Warden and 2 can't PvP all that much.
Lastly, I think we should talk about communication. The dev team member in question really shouldn't be communicating this type of stuff via social media or twitch since there was another incident not long ago. I am not going to go into that further in fear of this post just being taken down, but to me, after the last incident anything that comes out of his mouth comes off as condescending. If we are going to discuss things like trust I think it would help if the combat team came on the forums and actually explained the direction they want to take combat. WIth these wild changes that rework the most basic mechanics of the game every few months no one knows what result they are aiming for. From the outside looking in, to me, it just looks like you are dumbing down combat as much as possible to cater to your target audience. Which is not veteran players that have put time, money, and a whole lot of effort into this game. So open and clear communication could maybe rebuild some of the trust that in my case no longer exists.
<snipped for Baiting>
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Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Madhatten512 wrote: »If we are going to discuss things like trust I think it would help if the combat team came on the forums and actually explained the direction they want to take combat.
They did. They said they are nerfing light attack, heavy attack, heals, and damage over time.
It doesn't matter how many "positives" they spin into it, that's the bottom line. PvE end game will be much more difficult, and the PvP tank meta will just get stronger. Even casuals will notice how much power they lost.
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Madhatten512✭✭✭✭Madhatten512 wrote: »If we are going to discuss things like trust I think it would help if the combat team came on the forums and actually explained the direction they want to take combat.
They did. They said they are nerfing light attack, heavy attack, heals, and damage over time.
It doesn't matter how many "positives" they spin into it, that's the bottom line. PvE end game will be much more difficult, and the PvP tank meta will just get stronger. Even casuals will notice how much power they lost.
I was speaking more towards the overall direction of balance in ESO. They constantly go from one extreme to the other and then revert it. I mean they just reworked light and heavy attacks in Harrowstorm along with having to rework every light and heavy attack set in the game. That was around a year ago and we are back to reworking light and heavy attacks. Same with dots in Scalecaller (or whatever that dot patch was called) only to nerf dots into the ground and never touch them again a patch later. It is the constant swings from one extreme to another. I would like to know if there is an actual goal in mind. I 100% agree with you though. This change doesn't even help the people they are making it for. Someone doing 100k plus dps losing 5% to 10% still completes all content in the game. Someone doing 25k Dps now is struggling on random vet dungeons.Edited by Madhatten512 on July 10, 2022 6:47PM3 -
Arthtur✭✭✭✭✭
✭About "trust"... i will just leave this there. I know its not about combat but its shows how they answer to ppl's "trust".
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/596970/pts-update-33-feedback-thread-for-account-wide-achievements/p1
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Madhatten512✭✭✭✭About "trust"... i will just leave this there. I know its not about combat but its shows how they answer to ppl's "trust".
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/596970/pts-update-33-feedback-thread-for-account-wide-achievements/p1
Exactly. People wouldn't have such "knee-jerk" reactions if they had any hope of proposed changes (that no one asked for btw) wouldn't automatically go live.0 -
LeBrenn✭✭✭✭Yeah, shame this thread will be just another one locked or deleted.
You just have to say ''ZOS, I respectfully disagree with you'' to summon a dev calling your thread ''baiting'', ''offensive'' and against the rules.15 -
JustAGoodPlayer✭✭✭✭Madhatten512 wrote: »If we are going to discuss things like trust I think it would help if the combat team came on the forums and actually explained the direction they want to take combat.
They did. They said they are nerfing light attack, heavy attack, heals, and damage over time.
It doesn't matter how many "positives" they spin into it, that's the bottom line. PvE end game will be much more difficult, and the PvP tank meta will just get stronger. Even casuals will notice how much power they lost.
It is not true - it is not a big difference 10 dots now is 1.5 of a spammable.
In next patch if dots be 2 like spammable for 20 seconds = 9 dots + 11 spammable = (18+11)/20 = 1+9/20
Not a big difference.
Just math.
Now as HA player i feel BIG difference - because when sorc do 140 k DPS HA player do 90 k at best !
50 k or more than 50% is really big difference.
difference in less than 5-10% is not big difference )))
Casual players do not get hit.
<edited for Baiting>Edited by ZOS_Hadeostry on July 10, 2022 7:30PM0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The whole thing reminds me of RDR2. "I have a plan, Arthur. Just need some time and money. So have little faith!"4 -
Riptide✭✭✭✭✭
✭I have at some points been a white knight for the developers and creative direction team, particularly during the alpha, beta and first couple of years. And I’ve also been cynical and outright angry, as seen by some of my posts in the overland thread.
I’ve come to an acceptance that the team has moved in directions and made decisions I don’t agree with and there just isn’t anything I can do about it. Now I shake my head rather than grit my teeth, and it feels healthier.
I still come around for stretches, but I neither play the game year around nor advocate to my friends to play it or to keep playing it. And I don’t expect it to ever rise to the level where that will change.
I’ve seen this play out in other games in the second half of its overall lifecycle, and while ESO may run for decades, clearly it has passed its prime. I trust that, and try to enjoy what there is to enjoy without trying any more to put it in another box.
Esse quam videri.1 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well I for one welcome Our new combat overlords with welcoming nerf mittens. Yay Dev Team!2 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »It is not true - it is not a big difference 10 dots now is 1.5 of a spammable.
In next patch if dots be 2 like spammable for 20 seconds = 9 dots + 11 spammable = (18+11)/20 = 1+9/20
Not a big difference.
Just math.
Current DOTs are 10 seconds = 1.5x the damage of a spammable.
U35 DOTs will be 20 seconds = 2x the damage of a spammable.
10 ÷ 1.5 = 6.66
20 ÷ 2 = 10
6.66 x 2 = 13.3
That is almost 1/3 damage lost. And I can guarantee you that ZOS will increase the resource cost of the "extended" DOTs. So the total loss to the player will be significant.
Edited by Jaraal on July 10, 2022 7:10PM3 -
DagenHawk✭✭✭✭✭Madhatten512 wrote: »If we are going to discuss things like trust I think it would help if the combat team came on the forums and actually explained the direction they want to take combat.
They did. They said they are nerfing light attack, heavy attack, heals, and damage over time.
It doesn't matter how many "positives" they spin into it, that's the bottom line. PvE end game will be much more difficult, and the PvP tank meta will just get stronger. Even casuals will notice how much power they lost.
Like Rich said that is a overreaction... No one can say how much will be lost because no one has played it yet.
It's like ToT everyone hated it before they played it and now it's really popular.
ChillaxMadhatten512 wrote: »I could list hundreds of ways this company has broken any kind of trust I may have once had, but it would just be a wall of text.
Bro it already was a wall of text...
Edited by DagenHawk on July 10, 2022 7:14PM5 -
ZOS_HadeostrymodHey there,
Due to there already being a thread discussing combat changes. We are going to close this down so that you may continue the discussion here. Thank you for your understanding.1
This discussion has been closed.