The Biggest Barrier to Accessibility is Dramatic Balance Changes.

doesurmindglow

Title.

The truth is, casual players and new players cannot keep up with the constant stream of massive sledgehammer nerfs and buffs and wild shifts in the meta. Players who return after a break have a massive uphill climb to respond to shifts in game balance and grind their way into viability in a new meta. Every major update introduces new sets that are routinely overpowered compared to those previously in the game, and routinely nerfs sets and abilities that were overperforming from prior patches. Additionally, every major update make sweeping and dramatic changes to core systems of the game. Let's just look at the list of how many new or dramatically changed systems have happened since Greymoor:

• Introduced Antiquities and mythic items
• Introduced, and then reversed, a long series of "kiss-curse" sources of power
• Overhauled the Champion Points system dramatically
• Removed, and then reintroduced and expanded, powerful proc sets in PVP
• Hybridized most item set bonuses
• Hybridized scaling on most skills and abilities
• And now: Major changes to light attack weaving, over-time abilities and buffs

I'm not speaking for or against any of these changes on their own but I am concerned that as a result, there is a massive information gap new and casual players have to overcome every time they enter a new update. There are lots of myths and misconceptions players hold that generally are derived from advice that was once relevant and valid, but have persisted beyond sweeping changes due to inefficiencies in player and developer communication around the changes. Put simply, it is very hard to keep up with the meta when changes are so constant and dramatic, and the players who cannot for one reason or another are generally left behind.

This issue is a way bigger barrier and source of "delta" between experienced, knowledgeable players and those that are less experienced or less knowledgeable. The lack of stability in game balance creates a gap between players who have the knowledge and time to grind out the latest and greatest builds and group compositions and those that do not have either or both. Patch notes that read like short novels, easily stretched into thousands of words with hundreds of important details, are the single least accessible and most daunting aspect of developing skill in ESO.

It simply does not matter what is done as far as Champion Points, skill and item scaling, light attack weaving, ability durations, and anything else if players are expected to keep up with changes of the magnitude of those listed above on a regular basis. New players will often look to outdated guides, videos, and advice without the contextual knowledge that dramatic changes have occurred in the time since they were produced. Some content creators, largely without any support from ZOS or players, will take the time to go back and update their information to adjust for dramatic changes, but many do not, and players who rely on this information end up at a serious disadvantage compared to those that follow the game closely and spend many hours adapting to the patch notes.

Recently, many of these changes have been made with the promise that there will not be a need for future ones like it, and yet, they continue to be a mainstay of the game's balancing.

Please, consider the experience of players who do not have the time or ability to keep up with dramatic changes to the meta when implementing future combat adjustments. Consider additionally that the more dramatic changes are, the more outdated and irrelevant guides and tutorials produced for free will become, and the more likely information will proliferate that is no longer accurate, and that will present a knowledge and skill barrier to those players who are not as actively keeping up to date.

EnerG

Respectfully, no.

The acessibility issue is people not knowing where the information is, the baseline information needed to understand the changes and the community not being helpful to those who dont know these things.

And these are fixed with time, community, and being helpfull to one another.

doesurmindglow

The information barrier is only an issue because the changes are so dramatic and demanding of such significant upkeep.

If it weren't for those realities, the barriers in accessing the information, the information's tendency to become out of date, and finally, with the community being (or not being) helpful in updating it all kinda go away.

So basically what you're saying is the same thing I'm saying, except I'm looking at the causes and you're talking about the symptoms.

Cuddlypuff

The game is not hard guys. ESO lets first time, middle-aged gamers reach PVE and PVP endgame as long as you do a little bit of reading and practice. Very few other games are this lenient. Just look at first player shooters, MOBAs or Rocket League - these games require twitch reflexes, encyclopedic knowledge and years of muscle memory and mechanical practice to get anywhere close to competitive.

Unfortunately this casual nature is also reflected in the laziness of the some of the player base that refuses to learn even the bare minimum. This is perfectly fine (play how you want etc) but such players should simply refrain from complaining about underperformance or sweaty meta slaves. I'm just disappointed that every update is just kneejerk reactions to the casual playerbase rather than driven by carefully considered and articulated feedback from the endgame community.

doesurmindglow

I'm not saying it's hard.

I'm saying if your concern is primarily about the accessibility of the game to people who don't live and breathe it and who don't follow every single patch notes release line by line, one of the most common complaints I routinely hear from new and returning players in our guild is that so many things are changed so frequently that many sources of information available to them tend to be out of date, and they often face challenges adjusting to dramatic updates given limited time to spend in the game.

doesurmindglow

Significant shifts in the game's systems occurring at high frequency are much harder on casual or newer players who don't have the same level of time commitment, contextual knowledge, or ability to quickly adapt as long-term and veteran players.

The changes themselves might not make the game less accessible (it really depends heavily on which of the many recent huge changes we're talking about) but the chaos and lack of stability very much does.

AinSoph

EnerG wrote: »

Respectfully, no.

The acessibility issue is people not knowing where the information is, the baseline information needed to understand the changes and the community not being helpful to those who dont know these things.

And these are fixed with time, community, and being helpfull to one another.

This game has been going on for 8 years and they don't even have a built-in minimap yet, how much longer can we wait/stretch people's patience?

Cadbury

Every MMO goes through meta and class shifts, and It's a constant battle to keep up. But by and large the communities always find a way to keep and maintain relevant knowledge. It just requires those wanting to learn to actively seek it out...

Cuddlypuff

doesurmindglow wrote: »

Significant shifts in the game's systems occurring at high frequency are much harder on casual or newer players who don't have the same level of time commitment, contextual knowledge, or ability to quickly adapt as long-term and veteran players.

The changes themselves might not make the game less accessible (it really depends heavily on which of the many recent huge changes we're talking about) but the chaos and lack of stability very much does.

For PVE, you could literally pull out a meta char from 2 years ago (eg False Gods / Mothers Sorrow etc) and still slap any vet content. I doubt you'll lose any more than ~20% dmg compared to the current minmax options. I do agree with your points for PVP though - the yo-yo balancing is tiresome and simply promotes a few broken builds every patch cycle which go straight into the bin afterwards. That being said the basic mechanics of PVP remain the same which is why the better players still end up doing well regardless of class/meta.

Sync01

I can absolutely see that this is a bigger issue for casual players compared to end game players.

Players can absolutely find information if they want to, but there is a lot of information out there that is incorrect. For example guides that are no longer being updated, content on youtube (or other platforms) that give tips that are no longer relevant, old forum posts that show up, or just incorrect information that's spread in chat or guilds. An experienced player can tell if something isn't relevant, but you can't expect that a player with little experience knows what's legit and what isn't.

Parasaurolophus

AinSoph wrote: »

EnerG wrote: »

Respectfully, no.

The acessibility issue is people not knowing where the information is, the baseline information needed to understand the changes and the community not being helpful to those who dont know these things.

And these are fixed with time, community, and being helpfull to one another.

This game has been going on for 8 years and they don't even have a built-in minimap yet, how much longer can we wait/stretch people's patience?

not necessary

doesurmindglow

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

For PVE, you could literally pull out a meta char from 2 years ago (eg False Gods / Mothers Sorrow etc) and still slap any vet content. I doubt you'll lose any more than ~20% dmg compared to the current minmax options. I do agree with your points for PVP though - the yo-yo balancing is tiresome and simply promotes a few broken builds every patch cycle which go straight into the bin afterwards. That being said the basic mechanics of PVP remain the same which is why the better players still end up doing well regardless of class/meta.

Yes, if you limit your scope to "the item sets required for playing DPS in exclusively PVE," you probably would see less of an impact and be less concerned that much of the information available to new and casual players is perpetually out of date.

But if you actually haven't loaded the character in 2 years, your CP and skills will be entirely reset. Half of the major changes I listed originally primarily involve skills and abilities, and a third of them primarily impact PVP. The issue is simply that keeping up with those changes -- even if you completely ignore the dramatic shifts in the meta with regard to item sets -- is itself challenging for casual players who do not follow patch notes, and much more importantly than that, also results in a lot of the information available to new players frequently being wrong or no longer relevant.

There are dozens of guides and builds available on the internet using the old CP, for one example. Dozens more using a pre-hybridized skill loadout and it feels difficult, even if you don't care all that much, to know which is the "right" one. There's a list of item sets working in No Proc PVP that includes sets that do not work and excludes sets that do work, and also hasn't been updated by developers with the release of new sets in the time since it was introduced. And all of those problems are now likely to get much worse on Monday.

I'm not speaking so much to what is technically reality in terms of "you can go in with x set and do y damage" but rather to the actual experience of new and casual players as articulated by them to me, which is that they're extremely confused by all the sweeping changes and the resulting conflicting information, and find it very inaccessible as a result.

xylena_lazarow

You can spam one button through all overland questing and 1-50 progression. Good for accessibility, bad for teaching the game's mechanics. and then there is no skill check before moving into competitive Vet content or PvP.

keto3000

(PC/NA) I still use the minimap from AUI ( Advanced UI addon). I've used it successfully for years!!

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

EnerG wrote: »

Respectfully, no.

The acessibility issue is people not knowing where the information is, the baseline information needed to understand the changes and the community not being helpful to those who dont know these things.

And these are fixed with time, community, and being helpfull to one another.

This game has been going on for 8 years and they don't even have a built-in minimap yet, how much longer can we wait/stretch people's patience?

not necessary

Firstmep

EnerG wrote: »

Respectfully, no.

The acessibility issue is people not knowing where the information is, the baseline information needed to understand the changes and the community not being helpful to those who dont know these things.

And these are fixed with time, community, and being helpfull to one another.

I guess if you ignore the thousands of community made guides on literally every aspect of the game, the thousands of beginner friendly guilds and groups then sure, the community is not that helpful...

AinSoph

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

EnerG wrote: »

Respectfully, no.

The acessibility issue is people not knowing where the information is, the baseline information needed to understand the changes and the community not being helpful to those who dont know these things.

And these are fixed with time, community, and being helpfull to one another.

This game has been going on for 8 years and they don't even have a built-in minimap yet, how much longer can we wait/stretch people's patience?

not necessary

If anyone wants to talk about accessibility, you have to consider ALL platforms which include consoles which can't access add-ons at all which falls entirely on ZOS to provide and no add-on authors.

doesurmindglow

Firstmep wrote: »

I guess if you ignore the thousands of community made guides on literally every aspect of the game, the thousands of beginner friendly guilds and groups then sure, the community is not that helpful...

I think the community is extremely helpful. It's only because so many people have gone out of their way to provide advice and develop effective guides in the first place that the issue of frequent and sweeping changes that render that advice and those guides out of date is even an issue.

ZOS does very little of its own to provide updated and comprehensive information to its new playerbase. This almost entirely falls upon players and volunteers, who may or may not have the time, interest, or ability to keep it fully updated, leading to outdated and sometimes conflicting information that new or casual players often have to then navigate. Even the official information from the developers isn't kept up to date with the changes they're implementing into the game.

One way to solve this problem would be more robust and effective communication from the developers themselves, with paid staff who develop, expand, and update guides and tutorials that new players can use. I'd support that for sure. But even if that existed, which it generally doesn't, another more important thing they could do is stop making such huge adjustments to the game's core systems and instead focus on more modest tweaks (and well overdue bug fixes) that are informed by player feedback, so that the information gap between a player who can keep up with patch notes and one that cannot or does not is not nearly as severe.

Cadbury

doesurmindglow wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

I guess if you ignore the thousands of community made guides on literally every aspect of the game, the thousands of beginner friendly guilds and groups then sure, the community is not that helpful...

I think the community is extremely helpful. It's only because so many people have gone out of their way to provide advice and develop effective guides in the first place that the issue of frequent and sweeping changes that render that advice and those guides out of date is even an issue.

ZOS does very little of its own to provide updated and comprehensive information to its new playerbase. This almost entirely falls upon players and volunteers, who may or may not have the time, interest, or ability to keep it fully updated, leading to outdated and sometimes conflicting information that new or casual players often have to then navigate. Even the official information from the developers isn't kept up to date with the changes they're implementing into the game.

One way to solve this problem would be more robust and effective communication from the developers themselves, with paid staff who develop, expand, and update guides and tutorials that new players can use. I'd support that for sure. But even if that existed, which it generally doesn't, another more important thing they could do is stop making such huge adjustments to the game's core systems and instead focus on more modest tweaks (and well overdue bug fixes) that are informed by player feedback, so that the information gap between a player who can keep up with patch notes and one that cannot or does not is not nearly as severe.

If people don't search for the information, that's on them.

Also, supposedly the upcoming changes will lessen the need for big, sweeping changes in the future.

Vakiri

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

You can spam one button through all overland questing and 1-50 progression. Good for accessibility, bad for teaching the game's mechanics. and then there is no skill check before moving into competitive Vet content or PvP.

Then people get a very rude awakening when they attempt vet dungeons or worse, PvP. I remember that brick wall I ran headfirst into very well

doesurmindglow

Cadbury wrote: »

Also, supposedly the upcoming changes will lessen the need for big, sweeping changes in the future.

Lol: They have said that every single time one of these big, sweeping changes have been made. My question is simply: when is that actually going to become true? Is this the patch that finally does it? Or will we learn that actually no, more big sweeping changes are needed before we can finally get to incremental tweaks?

My experience points strongly toward the latter -- you can see above the list of 6+ patches in the last two years that have followed this pattern, despite multiple earlier promises that they wouldn't. I hope I'm wrong. But I won't be surprised when I'm not.

JustAGoodPlayer

Rebalance make all sets you farm and make gold = useless.

If you can get back all resources you spend on such set you make back - it would not be such a problem.

It hit us as a players to hard to remake gear, make it gold and than - it become useless. The gold jevelery is hell pain to make gold.

And when you love some sets you make it gold.

We as a player get hit each update - it takes to much resources to ramake gear(time), change skills, make it gold and etc.

If sets or game balance change a lot at least return resorces players spend to make it !!!

Everest_Lionheart

From a DPS standpoint the last couple of patches the game has never been easier. You can thank hybridization for that.

What hasn’t changed is the gate keeping to endgame content. As DPS rises so do the requirements to get into raids. Within weeks of release the console community is gatekeeping vDSR with requirements like 95K+, multiple clears and 150K+ score to get in for gear runs. Accessibility is a community problem not a game problem.

seranfall

Most casual players don't care nor need to worry about Meta. Most casual players are not doing a lot of veteran content if any. Virtually any build or combination of gear is enough to do any story quest and most of the overland content.

You seem to think Meta is so important to the game that it affects everyone and it simply doesn't. This game has millions of players. Many play it just a few hours a week to hang out with friends or blow off some steam. They just don't care about the same things that people that play 20+ hours a week do.

The hardcore players that need to be worried about Meta to be at near the top need to know far more to achieve that.

Jofootballo

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

From a DPS standpoint the last couple of patches the game has never been easier. You can thank hybridization for that.

What hasn’t changed is the gate keeping to endgame content. As DPS rises so do the requirements to get into raids. Within weeks of release the console community is gatekeeping vDSR with requirements like 95K+, multiple clears and 150K+ score to get in for gear runs. Accessibility is a community problem not a game problem.

Yeah, new player's aren't attempting vDSR, lol, that isn't what this combat update is about. I totally get where you're coming from, but I think this is an entirely different issue. I hate the fact that I can't easily find a group for every trial arena and dungeon in the game, but there's a reason for that. ZoS can't force people to lower their req's for trials, and they certainly shouldn't add a queue for them. Veteran trials are gatekept for a reason, as some are physically impossible to complete without enough dps and most get much more difficult with a "bad" batch of dps'. They're the pinnacle of pve content, and should be treated as such

jaws343

doesurmindglow wrote: »

The information barrier is only an issue because the changes are so dramatic and demanding of such significant upkeep.

If it weren't for those realities, the barriers in accessing the information, the information's tendency to become out of date, and finally, with the community being (or not being) helpful in updating it all kinda go away.

So basically what you're saying is the same thing I'm saying, except I'm looking at the causes and you're talking about the symptoms.

They only demand upkeep if you are trying to get that extra 2-3% of dps every patch.

I've been running the same PVE solo/4-man build since Elswyr, and I have only seen my DPS go up. For casual players, chasing those last few percent of DPS due to meta changes is never going to work for them anyways. At least not until they ware within 10% or so from the top, which, the balance shifting and updates are never stopping them from getting there. Even with outdated gear from 4+ patches ago.

GetAgrippa

One of the things that cracks me up is they literally JUST changed some sets to buff light and heavy attacks with a spell/weapon damage increase, and now those sets are obsolete AGAIN.

Not that I care, I don't use those sets. But it is too damn funny to see ZOS contradict their own changes over and over again.

doesurmindglow

seranfall wrote: »

Most casual players don't care nor need to worry about Meta. Most casual players are not doing a lot of veteran content if any. Virtually any build or combination of gear is enough to do any story quest and most of the overland content.

You seem to think Meta is so important to the game that it affects everyone and it simply doesn't. This game has millions of players. Many play it just a few hours a week to hang out with friends or blow off some steam. They just don't care about the same things that people that play 20+ hours a week do.

The hardcore players that need to be worried about Meta to be at near the top need to know far more to achieve that.

That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is the information gap is wider and more important than the actual skill gap, and also that the landscape of information available is often conflicting and thus confusing if you don't have the experience and context to navigate it. It's not just about keeping up to date as an existing player, though sure, for some players that will be a challenge; but it's much more about the fact so much information available to new players is just wrong, and usually because it's outdated and the game has changed dramatically since it was produced.

If they're not looking for information and not trying to learn the game, sure, that's not really going to be a problem. But none of the changes really make the game more accessible for this type of player either, as it really doesn't matter for them.

Marto

doesurmindglow wrote: »

• Introduced Antiquities and mythic items
• Introduced, and then reversed, a long series of "kiss-curse" sources of power
• Overhauled the Champion Points system dramatically
• Removed, and then reintroduced and expanded, powerful proc sets in PVP
• Hybridized most item set bonuses
• Hybridized scaling on most skills and abilities
• And now: Major changes to light attack weaving, over-time abilities and buffs

Mythic items are, and have always been, niche sets that have unique effects. They're not really meant to fit every build or every situation. New mythic items being introduced doesn't affect the overall meta or balance of the game, no matter how strong or overpowered they might be. X guild or Y guide might recommend them, but they can't really mandate them.

Those "kiss-curse" bonuses (let's call them tradeoffs, that's a better term) have always been there, and will always be there. It's game design 101. Guns that shoot faster deal less damage, units that use more resources are more powerful, and armor that is sturdier makes you walk slower.

The CP overhaul was many years in the making. They announced it when they stopped increasing the cap. The CP overhaul is also far better and easier on newer players. Veterans found it confusing because they were so used to the old system, but newcomers don't find it confusing.

While the hybridization sounds like it'd be a massive change to the game's balance... credit to ZOS, they managed to pull it off in such a way that old-style builds (that only use stam or magicka, but not both) work just as well as they used to.

ESO hasn't really had many big changes to the balance, function, or meta for many years now.

And no, the 1% buffs or nerfs that the endgame trial community complains about don't count as a "big change"

doesurmindglow

Marto wrote: »

ESO hasn't really had many big changes to the balance, function, or meta for many years now.

And no, the 1% buffs or nerfs that the endgame trial community complains about don't count as a "big change"

I'm not sure what to tell you if you don't care at all about the feedback that the information available to new players is often outdated and wrong, or that having a lot of conflicting information available can be confusing. That's a real concern.

The 1% buffs or nerfs the endgame trial community complains about do not actually matter to the endgame trial community, they'll be updated and adapt just fine no matter what the developers do. But nothing on my list of recent changes actually falls under that category. These are all changes that introduce entirely new systems or substantially revise old ones, and render lots of outdated advice, guides, and information outdated in the process, leading to a substantial gap between people relying heavily on that information, and those that are not.

GetAgrippa

Speaking of dramatic changes for no reason. They've completely overhauled Scorch. Deep fissure and its 3 second timer has been ingrained in my brain for years. Now it'll cast twice in 10 seconds? Once after 4 seconds and once after 6? I have to completely relearn how to use a skill that is the class's entire identity? This is ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. I'm so angry at Zos right now

Everest_Lionheart

Jofootballo wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

From a DPS standpoint the last couple of patches the game has never been easier. You can thank hybridization for that.

What hasn’t changed is the gate keeping to endgame content. As DPS rises so do the requirements to get into raids. Within weeks of release the console community is gatekeeping vDSR with requirements like 95K+, multiple clears and 150K+ score to get in for gear runs. Accessibility is a community problem not a game problem.

Yeah, new player's aren't attempting vDSR, lol, that isn't what this combat update is about. I totally get where you're coming from, but I think this is an entirely different issue. I hate the fact that I can't easily find a group for every trial arena and dungeon in the game, but there's a reason for that. ZoS can't force people to lower their req's for trials, and they certainly shouldn't add a queue for them. Veteran trials are gatekept for a reason, as some are physically impossible to complete without enough dps and most get much more difficult with a "bad" batch of dps'. They're the pinnacle of pve content, and should be treated as such

Outside of SOTN, GS, XS and the vDSR hard modes nothing in this game requires more than 80K DPS which you can be done in off meta gear without the need to weave perfectly. Honestly I wish ZOS would put in more punishing mechs for teams that over burn so people learn how to actually deal with mechs instead of burn through them. Make combat about fighting at a particular pace rather than all out max DPS. I would like to see DPS burst
matter in PvE rather than this sustained cleave damage meta and that’s coming from someone who plays Cro in these endgame groups.

But here we are anyway, Cro’s and DK’s only in the gate kept endgame trials. I got a blade, warden and plar that all do well over 100K but those aren’t invited because meta is all that matters.