Will weaving update give everyone an 80k parse?

Dagoth_Rac

Daggerfell0929 wrote: »

Damage will be going down across the board from this change. No one's will go up.

Tannus15 wrote: »

it's going to bring everyone's dps down.

Why do people keep saying this. It is absolutely not true. They are not making an across the board percentage reduction to light attack damage. They are setting it to a flat value. If that flat value is above a particular player's current light attack damage, it will be a buff. If that flat value is below a particular player's current light attack damage, it will be a nerf.

Of course, if they set light attacks to do 1000 damage, yes, it will be an across the board nerf. But if they set them to like 12000, that will be a significant nerf to meta groups with 20k+ light attacks, a mild buff to mid-tier progression groups with 10k light attacks and a significant buff to Craglorn pug groups with 5k light attacks.

Light attack damage is not just about weaving. It is also about how hard the light attacks hit. Meta groups with super high uptimes on buffs and penetration and crit chance and crit damage and coordinated ult drop cycles and on and on have their light attacks hit harder.

It is not that some players have 20k light attacks but miss half their weaves while other groups have 20k light attacks and hit all their weaves. It is that having 15k light attacks and hitting 75% of your weaves is 11k DPS while having 20k light attacks and hitting them 100% of the time is 20k DPS. Those 15k and 75% numbers sound pretty good. Yet they result in DPS of not much more than half of the meta group. Mid-tier groups are punished twice. Once for not having the buffs and stats and gear to have the highest hitting light attacks and punished again for not having a perfect weave. The goal of this change is to have it where non-meta group light attacks are only punished for imperfect weaving, not for imperfect stats/buffs/gear.

Kappachi

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Daggerfell0929 wrote: »

Damage will be going down across the board from this change. No one's will go up.

Tannus15 wrote: »

it's going to bring everyone's dps down.

Why do people keep saying this. It is absolutely not true. They are not making an across the board percentage reduction to light attack damage. They are setting it to a flat value. If that flat value is above a particular player's current light attack damage, it will be a buff. If that flat value is below a particular player's current light attack damage, it will be a nerf.

Of course, if they set light attacks to do 1000 damage, yes, it will be an across the board nerf. But if they set them to like 12000, that will be a significant nerf to meta groups with 20k+ light attacks, a mild buff to mid-tier progression groups with 10k light attacks and a significant buff to Craglorn pug groups with 5k light attacks.

Light attack damage is not just about weaving. It is also about how hard the light attacks hit. Meta groups with super high uptimes on buffs and penetration and crit chance and crit damage and coordinated ult drop cycles and on and on have their light attacks hit harder.

It is not that some players have 20k light attacks but miss half their weaves while other groups have 20k light attacks and hit all their weaves. It is that having 15k light attacks and hitting 75% of your weaves is 11k DPS while having 20k light attacks and hitting them 100% of the time is 20k DPS. Those 15k and 75% numbers sound pretty good. Yet they result in DPS of not much more than half of the meta group. Mid-tier groups are punished twice. Once for not having the buffs and stats and gear to have the highest hitting light attacks and punished again for not having a perfect weave. The goal of this change is to have it where non-meta group light attacks are only punished for imperfect weaving, not for imperfect stats/buffs/gear.

They gave numbers in the blog post, and numbers will be going DOWN. From about 20%~ of your total damage to 6-11%, massive DECREASE.

spartaxoxo

Kappachi wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Daggerfell0929 wrote: »

Damage will be going down across the board from this change. No one's will go up.

Tannus15 wrote: »

it's going to bring everyone's dps down.

Why do people keep saying this. It is absolutely not true. They are not making an across the board percentage reduction to light attack damage. They are setting it to a flat value. If that flat value is above a particular player's current light attack damage, it will be a buff. If that flat value is below a particular player's current light attack damage, it will be a nerf.

Of course, if they set light attacks to do 1000 damage, yes, it will be an across the board nerf. But if they set them to like 12000, that will be a significant nerf to meta groups with 20k+ light attacks, a mild buff to mid-tier progression groups with 10k light attacks and a significant buff to Craglorn pug groups with 5k light attacks.

Light attack damage is not just about weaving. It is also about how hard the light attacks hit. Meta groups with super high uptimes on buffs and penetration and crit chance and crit damage and coordinated ult drop cycles and on and on have their light attacks hit harder.

It is not that some players have 20k light attacks but miss half their weaves while other groups have 20k light attacks and hit all their weaves. It is that having 15k light attacks and hitting 75% of your weaves is 11k DPS while having 20k light attacks and hitting them 100% of the time is 20k DPS. Those 15k and 75% numbers sound pretty good. Yet they result in DPS of not much more than half of the meta group. Mid-tier groups are punished twice. Once for not having the buffs and stats and gear to have the highest hitting light attacks and punished again for not having a perfect weave. The goal of this change is to have it where non-meta group light attacks are only punished for imperfect weaving, not for imperfect stats/buffs/gear.

They gave numbers in the blog post, and numbers will be going DOWN. From about 20%~ of your total damage to 6-11%, massive DECREASE.

That's not what they said.

Coming in Update 35, we’re reducing Light and Heavy Attacks’ impact in damage production by adjusting their damage to deal a flat amount, regardless of stats. We have spent a considerable amount of time investigating the baseline experience that a new player would have with these attacks, using that as our starting point for how much damage they do moving forward. The aim is to not harm the low-end experience, and target only the higher end

So they are picking a flat that will likely not affect baseline damage at all, but will reduce high end damage by about 11% with whatever number they selected.

For reference, in many of ESO’s high-end experiences and activities, the average build sees roughly 15–20% of their overall damage coming from Light Attacks alone, which is a huge contribution to the delta of power we see. While testing these adjustments internally, we’ve seen a reduction of 6–11% to overall damage

Deter1UK

BretonMage wrote: »

Deter1UK wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

Deter1UK wrote: »

This has been in the offing for a couple of years now. I recall a throw away remark on a stream ages ago to the effect that dungeon designers were fed up with people skipping mechanics.

Ugh. I HATE mechanics. I'm playing an Elder Scrolls game, not Super Mario Brothers. I'd rather chase DPS than have to spend hours studying up what to do, how to do it, in what order to do it, and what to do after. I still haven't figured out the short cut in FGI, let's put it that way.

Well, we are all different.

For me, I don't mind mechanical mechanics at all - levers, lifts, boxes, pressure plates, all that stuff gives a place character - if it's there for a good and discernable reason.

Yes, you’re right we need some design to make a dungeon interesting, and I’m aware mine is probably a minority viewpoint. I remember when Frostvault came out and many people loved it (not me). I tend to prefer boss mechanics because they’re usually skippable on normal, less so on vet, and I think that’s a great compromise.

Ahh Welcome to the Frostvault Hate Club - I don't do that many DLC dungeons anyway but that is one I approach with great trepidation, I find it almost incomprehensible, as for the skeever section...

BretonMage

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

Ugh. I HATE mechanics. I'm playing an Elder Scrolls game, not Super Mario Brothers. I'd rather chase DPS than have to spend hours studying up what to do, how to do it, in what order to do it, and what to do after. I still haven't figured out the short cut in FGI, let's put it that way.

Huh, I really find the mindless button-mashing of "rotation" utterly boring and would rather spend time engaging with the mechanics. I too think that it should be Elder Scrolls and not Mario (more button mashing). I find it frustrating that the time I put into learning the mechanics doesn't matter because people with really high DPS can just ignore them. But I like learning the more puzzle-oriented aspects of the game, it's what is interesting for me. But I'm embarrassed to admit that it had never occurred to me that what I find interesting others find as boring to them as the button-mashing is to me. So thanks, it always helps to learn to see things from someone else's point of view.

I especially hate the type of mechanics that feel tacked on, interrupting your fight. Like the ones where you have to stop damaging the boss, run/teleport somewhere in order to hit that thing/light that candle/kill that other thing, then run/teleport back before the main boss kills the entire team. It's stressful, especially if you don't do it fast enough (or get lost) and the boss kills you/your entire team. And it's frustrating because it doesn't feel intuitive.

Damage-avoiding mechanics are usually fine, because those tend to make more sense. But even then, it isn't always clear or the colour cues are not easy to interpret. Are you supposed to step in the white area or avoid the white area? What about the area that looks white but is actually white/pink?

I suppose many people must like it or ZOS wouldn't put it in as much as they do. I myself rather like my rotation. I've practised for it, I like to see it work. I also like fights to be as brief as possible because they can be really stressful in the harder dungeons.

Deter1UK wrote: »

Ahh Welcome to the Frostvault Hate Club - I don't do that many DLC dungeons anyway but that is one I approach with great trepidation, I find it almost incomprehensible, as for the skeever section...

Glad to know I'm not alone there

BahometZ

What's funny to me is that while zos have recently been nerfing individual means of doing damage, like cp nodes, dps sets, class skills and passives in an effort to rein in power creep, they've continued to add support sets and cp nodes that enable even more damage to groups that can build and organise around them. Top raid teams have and will continue to circumvent efforts to restrain them. Effectively its a lot more complicated to obtain the best group performance for raid than it ever has been, all while they have purported to be making endgame pve content more open.

Effectively what they've been doing is ensuring that highly skilled teams can continue crushing it in veteran trials and dungeons by mastering the nexus of tools the game provides them, while players who do not participate in endgame are bystanders caught in the crossfire of balance.

For people who quest, role-play, collect costumes and tour the overland world, none of the balance changes make any difference, but for people dedicated to mechanics and class mastery, these kinds of changes present destabilisation and discussion about the future of their game time.

Eiregirl

Those who can adapt will and those who cannot, will not.

Through the years of playing this game there have been many changes players, including myself, have complained about when ZOS has posted proposed changes and we told them how it would ruin the game or make certain characters virtually unplayable. Sometimes they listened and most times they did not but always we have adapted.

We make changes to our gear setup and/or our skill setup and press forward. Sometimes we change our rotation due to the skills or gear we have changed and always we march through the enemy like a hot knife through butter.

They could reduce the damage of high-end players by 25% and raise the low-end players damage by 25% and we would still march through our enemies. It might take a few seconds longer but we would still do it and eventually, If we want to, we would find ways to increase our damage just like we always have.

Regardless of any changes ZOS wants to make a parse of 75K or 100K DPS is not needed to complete any content in the game and if you know the mechanics and follow the mechanics you don't even need 50K.

To those who enjoy the game it does not matter what ZOS does to our damage output as long as the game is playable we will continue to play. A 10 to 25% reduction in overall damage output for a skilled player will only slow them down a little and only until they find a way to adapt and overcome, just like we always have.

BretonMage

Eiregirl wrote: »

Those who can adapt will and those who cannot, will not.

(snip)

A 10 to 25% reduction in overall damage output for a skilled player will only slow them down a little and only until they find a way to adapt and overcome, just like we always have.

Actually, I agree. And this is where it ties into the other threads about how it's less a skill gap than a knowledge gap. Top players have a broad understanding of the different aspects of combat (as well as access to the different top tier sets), which enables them to quickly adapt and adjust. And the general population often just lags behind.

Until that knowledge gap is dealt with, I feel that any action by ZOS to narrow the gap will only expand it.

ccfeeling

We completed all trials non hm with 35k dps average, our guild from RL friends mostly, play casual and no such high requirements, understand the trial mechanics and play smart are good enough.

High dps is cool, they can skip some mechanics, who doesnt like fast burn in vmol.

100k dps check, for real? What we need are 12 man show up at right time.

Ermiq

I'm pretty sure nothing in the game really requires more than 30-40K dps.
The problem is not that some people can't hit 80K, but that too many people believe that 40K is too low.

Sync01

Ermiq wrote: »

I'm pretty sure nothing in the game really requires more than 30-40K dps.
The problem is not that some people can't hit 80K, but that too many people believe that 40K is too low.

Most content doesn't require that much more than 40k dps. You can absolutely do dungeons, overland content or solo questlines without any real issue with that dps, even some trials, but what you can't do are trial trifectas.

There are dps requirements you just can't get around, if your group does less dps then you will wipe. If you aren't interested in that kind of content, then that's not an issue, but it's still a hard limit. Doing more dps also means enemies die faster, meaning there's less time for something to go wrong, which is why trial groups prefer as high dps as possible (and faster = higher score).

What's considered too low dps is really down to what type of content you're going for.