Will weaving update give everyone an 80k parse?

Whiskers

I'm skeptical on the idea that weaving changes will help players. If anything the content should be nerfed to allow non top tier players the ability to play it. In veteran trials they often have DPS checks where if you can't kill the ad/boss in a minute or so, it wipes the group. This makes having a 80k+ parse a requirement for many groups to let you join them. By making the weaving harder to benefit from, it locks more players out of the harder content.

Daggerfell0929

Damage will be going down across the board from this change. No one's will go up.

etchedpixels

Whiskers wrote: »

I'm skeptical on the idea that weaving changes will help players. If anything the content should be nerfed to allow non top tier players the ability to play it. In veteran trials they often have DPS checks where if you can't kill the ad/boss in a minute or so, it wipes the group. This makes having a 80k+ parse a requirement for many groups to let you join them. By making the weaving harder to benefit from, it locks more players out of the harder content.

More the other way around. By trying to bring down the top DPS a bit it makes it easier to have content that a wide range of people can do. It's not that long ago that 75K was god mode, it rose to about 100K with a mix of badly considered mythics and clever use of sets, then the hybridisation update sent it skyhigh and made the problem really bad. The flat scaling and the fact you can flat stack any attribute, regen level etc to silly levels of specialization at no more cost than more generalized builds unfortunately massively amplifies everything that ZoS miss and the army of smart theorycrafters exploit. Fixing that would be far better still.

Most of the "elite" group parse requirements (except for some vet hard and even then not really over 70K) are not about the trial, they are about ensuring that all the people in the group are willing to put in all the time and effort and skill mastery required. It's a filter and that's why even when the trial mechanics have not changed the vet trial groups tweak the numbers so they filter out all but the most dedicated. No ZoS change will alter that.

You can argue about whether that's elitism or just the really good players wanting to play with similarly dedicated folks, but that's another discussion altogether.

Sync01

There are few trials with true dps checks, there are however plenty of strategies where you ignore the mechanics. If your group doesn't have the damage you can't do that, but you can still do the trial by doing the mechanics - it just takes longer.

Tannus15

the light attack damage nerf is entirely to combat power creep.

it's going to bring everyone's dps down. update 34 they nerfed CP as a first step of bringing down the group dps. they are hoping the light attack nerf will bring down the maximum dps while affecting low dps players less.

honestly i find parse dummy dps requirements are arbitrary and rather pointless. it's too easy to cheese some good numbers. if someone wants to join a group it's easier to just bring them along and look at esologs. often that's not even required, you can just count how many times they die to stuff they shouldn't. it's very obvious when someone is out of their depth.

the combat change notes TL;DR is basically "we're nerfing dps. you're doing too much dps, do less dps."

CyberOnEso

Whiskers wrote: »

In veteran trials they often have DPS checks where if you can't kill the ad/boss in a minute or so, it wipes the group.

What veteran trials have a hard DPS check. Although having more DPS makes some fights easier ZOS seems to have a rule against hard DPS checks in veteran trials- but not in veteran hard mode.

e.g. Xalvakka's lava rises at a near constant rate in hard mode, making it a hard DPS check. However, only rises when Xalvakka hits the % threshold in veteran meaning there is no hard DPS check.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

CyberOnEso wrote: »

Whiskers wrote: »

In veteran trials they often have DPS checks where if you can't kill the ad/boss in a minute or so, it wipes the group.

What veteran trials have a hard DPS check. Although having more DPS makes some fights easier ZOS seems to have a rule against hard DPS checks in veteran trials- but not in veteran hard mode.

e.g. Xalvakka's lava rises at a near constant rate in hard mode, making it a hard DPS check. However, only rises when Xalvakka hits the % threshold in veteran meaning there is no hard DPS check.

I think the mage from the archive trial as one but due to the massive powercreep sice it released, its mostly irrelevent. Back then 25k and up was awesome dps

WinterHeart626

No. It won’t.
80k is what people who push for the top tier parse score use as a baseline for speed run trifecta teams (in my experience anyways)
Now, the last parse I did before my wrist went haywire (shard of glass through it a few years back, makes for some fun times to be sure 😑), I was cracking 37-40k on the 31M trial dummy in Law of Julianos + mothers sorrow as a Magicka blade with pair of infernos.
This was without knowing my rotations properly, and to be fair, I don’t exactly care for trying for a “higher score” on the dummy. What I do care about is holding my own in veteran content and not holding my team back by dying all the time

Deter1UK

Tannus15 wrote: »

the light attack damage nerf is entirely to combat power creep.
TL;DR is basically "we're nerfing dps. you're doing too much dps, do less dps."

This has been in the offing for a couple of years now. I recall a throw away remark on a stream ages ago to the effect that dungeon designers were fed up with people skipping mechanics.

I get that. If you’ve spent a huge amount of time designing writing and crafting a layout you want to see people engaged with the ride, you’d be pretty miffed if the combat team make it possible to ignore it all.

But anyway, to OP: No, people like me with the reflexes of a 70 yr old and having to keep one eye on the keyboard in case we get a bloody cat sitting on a crate mid combat , 30 dps remains a vaguely attainable goal - possibly. And, yes, I’ve been weaving for 5 years now.

francesinhalover

The 100k dps needed for trials leader to let you join trials will still exist, so if you were struggling to reach 100k like most people. Get ready

harponers nerf, cp nerf, Light attack nerf, Dot duration rework that DECREASES THE DMG, and future sustain nerfs.

I wouldn't be surprised if ppl lose 25% of their dps.

I aint bothering with pve endgame anymore, Just because pro players can do vmol faster doesn't mean your average endgame player can with all the stupid insta kills that plague the game.

francesinhalover

Deter1UK wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

the light attack damage nerf is entirely to combat power creep.
TL;DR is basically "we're nerfing dps. you're doing too much dps, do less dps."

This has been in the offing for a couple of years now. I recall a throw away remark on a stream ages ago to the effect that dungeon designers were fed up with people skipping mechanics.

I get that. If you’ve spent a huge amount of time designing writing and crafting a layout you want to see people engaged with the ride, you’d be pretty miffed if the combat team make it possible to ignore it all.

But anyway, to OP: No, people like me with the reflexes of a 70 yr old and having to keep one eye on the keyboard in case we get a bloody cat sitting on a crate mid combat , 30 dps remains a vaguely attainable goal - possibly. And, yes, I’ve been weaving for 5 years now.

Oh so dungeon designers add insta kill mechs to make people that Have a LIFE and a JOB waste a insane ammount of hours on a trial, and they can't accept those ppl use some shortcuts for the content they repeat constantly?

BretonMage

Deter1UK wrote: »

This has been in the offing for a couple of years now. I recall a throw away remark on a stream ages ago to the effect that dungeon designers were fed up with people skipping mechanics.

Ugh. I HATE mechanics. I'm playing an Elder Scrolls game, not Super Mario Brothers. I'd rather chase DPS than have to spend hours studying up what to do, how to do it, in what order to do it, and what to do after. I still haven't figured out the short cut in FGI, let's put it that way.

francesinhalover

WinterHeart626 wrote: »

No. It won’t.
80k is what people who push for the top tier parse score use as a baseline for speed run trifecta teams (in my experience anyways)
Now, the last parse I did before my wrist went haywire (shard of glass through it a few years back, makes for some fun times to be sure 😑), I was cracking 37-40k on the 31M trial dummy in Law of Julianos + mothers sorrow as a Magicka blade with pair of infernos.
This was without knowing my rotations properly, and to be fair, I don’t exactly care for trying for a “higher score” on the dummy. What I do care about is holding my own in veteran content and not holding my team back by dying all the time

"80k is what people who push for the top tier parse score use as a baseline for speed run trifecta teams (in my experience anyways)"
You need to tell me what guilds you belong to because i have joined over 15 and all asked for 100k min,
Some asked for installed addons, achievements etc too.

Sync01

100k seems pretty standard yeah, but the requirements tends to depend on the content.
Naturally, a team going for godslayer will have higher requirements than a team doing vHRC.

There are a lot of guilds who run training runs or put together progression groups for players who don't have a lot of experience though.

carlos424

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

CyberOnEso wrote: »

Whiskers wrote: »

In veteran trials they often have DPS checks where if you can't kill the ad/boss in a minute or so, it wipes the group.

What veteran trials have a hard DPS check. Although having more DPS makes some fights easier ZOS seems to have a rule against hard DPS checks in veteran trials- but not in veteran hard mode.

e.g. Xalvakka's lava rises at a near constant rate in hard mode, making it a hard DPS check. However, only rises when Xalvakka hits the % threshold in veteran meaning there is no hard DPS check.

I think the mage from the archive trial as one but due to the massive powercreep sice it released, its mostly irrelevent. Back then 25k and up was awesome dps

25k on a 3m dummy with no buffs/debuffs. Way different than trials atronach. Probably closer to like 60k-70k on current trials atro. But your point is well taken, damage is way higher now.

thorwyn

vSS hm Portal has a hard DPS check of around 45k DPS for each player - self sustained.

Kiralyn2000

Will weaving update give everyone an 80k parse?

No, but it's not intended to.


edit: seriously, though - every MMO I've ever played has had at least one "we're trying to narrow the range between the low DPS and the high DPS" patch. It's a problem for every game of this type.

mikemacon

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

CyberOnEso wrote: »

Whiskers wrote: »

In veteran trials they often have DPS checks where if you can't kill the ad/boss in a minute or so, it wipes the group.

What veteran trials have a hard DPS check. Although having more DPS makes some fights easier ZOS seems to have a rule against hard DPS checks in veteran trials- but not in veteran hard mode.

e.g. Xalvakka's lava rises at a near constant rate in hard mode, making it a hard DPS check. However, only rises when Xalvakka hits the % threshold in veteran meaning there is no hard DPS check.

I think the mage from the archive trial as one but due to the massive powercreep sice it released, its mostly irrelevent. Back then 25k and up was awesome dps

The Mage is a heal/mitigation check, not a DPS check. The Mage’s damage increases to a cap and then doesn’t increase after that. If you can survive at that damage cap, that fight can actually go on indefinitely if need be.

There are DPS checks in the game, but outside of a few DLC hardmodes they tend to be much less steep than people think they are.

starkerealm

mikemacon wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

CyberOnEso wrote: »

Whiskers wrote: »

In veteran trials they often have DPS checks where if you can't kill the ad/boss in a minute or so, it wipes the group.

What veteran trials have a hard DPS check. Although having more DPS makes some fights easier ZOS seems to have a rule against hard DPS checks in veteran trials- but not in veteran hard mode.

e.g. Xalvakka's lava rises at a near constant rate in hard mode, making it a hard DPS check. However, only rises when Xalvakka hits the % threshold in veteran meaning there is no hard DPS check.

I think the mage from the archive trial as one but due to the massive powercreep sice it released, its mostly irrelevent. Back then 25k and up was awesome dps

The Mage is a heal/mitigation check, not a DPS check. The Mage’s damage increases to a cap and then doesn’t increase after that. If you can survive at that damage cap, that fight can actually go on indefinitely if need be.

There are DPS checks in the game, but outside of a few DLC hardmodes they tend to be much less steep than people think they are.

Huh, legitimately never knew that. I was always under the impression that The Mage was 100k group (so, split between 8 - 9 players, that works out to slightly north of 10k.)

I knew Skoria was one of these, though. If you've got a healer that can out-pace the, "wipe," damage, you can grind the boss down no matter how low the damage is.

Deter1UK

francesinhalover wrote: »

Oh so dungeon designers add insta kill mechs to make people that Have a LIFE and a JOB waste a insane ammount of hours on a trial, and they can't accept those ppl use some shortcuts for the content they repeat constantly?

Well, I think that instant kill mechanics can be a lazy cop-out, good dungeon design can be much more inventive and witty than that.

And. Nobody is making anyone do anything. It's a game. That is all it is. If I felt I was seriously wasting time that should be devoted elsewhere - then I would devote it elsewhere. YMMV.

jecks33

CyberOnEso wrote: »

What veteran trials have a hard DPS check.

vAA, vMOL first boss, vSS, vHOF last boss, even dungeons and arenas have dps checks

Deter1UK

BretonMage wrote: »

Deter1UK wrote: »

This has been in the offing for a couple of years now. I recall a throw away remark on a stream ages ago to the effect that dungeon designers were fed up with people skipping mechanics.

Ugh. I HATE mechanics. I'm playing an Elder Scrolls game, not Super Mario Brothers. I'd rather chase DPS than have to spend hours studying up what to do, how to do it, in what order to do it, and what to do after. I still haven't figured out the short cut in FGI, let's put it that way.

Well, we are all different.

For me, I don't mind mechanical mechanics at all - levers, lifts, boxes, pressure plates, all that stuff gives a place character - if it's there for a good and discernable reason.

I do have a hard time with Boss mechanics etc but that's down to my own lack of coordination and skill. Thankfully I muddle through thanks to some understanding and chilled Guild mates who actually offer to take me places I wouldn't dream of going to

Edit: Oh and for what it's worth I know where the FG1 shortcut is BUT by the time I struggle out of the water everything is dead all ready!

starkerealm

jecks33 wrote: »

CyberOnEso wrote: »

What veteran trials have a hard DPS check.

vAA, vMOL first boss, vSS, even dungeons and arenas have dps checks

vAA's checks are around 100k group, so, even if you're asleep at the switch, that's almost more of a historical footnote than a relevant check.

vMoL's is also pretty tame. The vast majority of Rakhat's fight isn't checked at all (beyond trash clearing), and execute phase is pretty tame. It only gets squirrely if you have people down going into execute.

vSS HM has one of the highest wipe checks in the game, requiring 35 or 40k personal from three party members.

They're there, but as for difficult, mandatory, DPS checks? There aren't many. vSS is the clear standout here.

Dragonlord573

Unless they decrease the damage our abilities do, you can hit 91k without light attacking right now.

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/vubx9c/no_la_91k/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

BretonMage

Deter1UK wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

Deter1UK wrote: »

This has been in the offing for a couple of years now. I recall a throw away remark on a stream ages ago to the effect that dungeon designers were fed up with people skipping mechanics.

Ugh. I HATE mechanics. I'm playing an Elder Scrolls game, not Super Mario Brothers. I'd rather chase DPS than have to spend hours studying up what to do, how to do it, in what order to do it, and what to do after. I still haven't figured out the short cut in FGI, let's put it that way.

Well, we are all different.

For me, I don't mind mechanical mechanics at all - levers, lifts, boxes, pressure plates, all that stuff gives a place character - if it's there for a good and discernable reason.

Yes, you’re right we need some design to make a dungeon interesting, and I’m aware mine is probably a minority viewpoint. I remember when Frostvault came out and many people loved it (not me). I tend to prefer boss mechanics because they’re usually skippable on normal, less so on vet, and I think that’s a great compromise.

etchedpixels

Deter1UK wrote: »

Oh and for what it's worth I know where the FG1 shortcut is BUT by the time I struggle out of the water everything is dead all ready!

If your group DPS is high enough the shortcut is a loss unless you have four argonians.

Dawnblade

It is not designed to give everyone 80K, it is designed to lower the top end, which has been in need of some serious lowering for quite some time.

Unabated power creep is just not good for a game, especially one that doesn't do a hard reset with each expansion like a verticle progression game.

nhaley54ub17_ESO2

The game wasn't originally designed with Weaving in mind. That's why it's not explained through tutorials.. ZOS has never been happy with it, but they can't change the way combat works to actually take it out. Sadly they created content knowing that it existed, but over the past few years they've been trying to create content that wasn't just about DPS, and more mechanic based. They've been looking at reducing APM )actions per minute) for a long time. They want casual fans to pick up the game enjoy endgame content without needing to "practice" or "study" in order to complete the content. This is an Elder Scrolls Game, no one has to "practice" or "get good" to play Skyrim. Skyrim is one of the best selling games of all time. Elder Scrolls 6 wont be out for maybe 4-6 years, ZOS wants to capitalize on the players that want to play an Elder Scrolls game until then.

MidniteOwl1913

BretonMage wrote: »

Deter1UK wrote: »

This has been in the offing for a couple of years now. I recall a throw away remark on a stream ages ago to the effect that dungeon designers were fed up with people skipping mechanics.

Ugh. I HATE mechanics. I'm playing an Elder Scrolls game, not Super Mario Brothers. I'd rather chase DPS than have to spend hours studying up what to do, how to do it, in what order to do it, and what to do after. I still haven't figured out the short cut in FGI, let's put it that way.

Huh, I really find the mindless button-mashing of "rotation" utterly boring and would rather spend time engaging with the mechanics. I too think that it should be Elder Scrolls and not Mario (more button mashing). I find it frustrating that the time I put into learning the mechanics doesn't matter because people with really high DPS can just ignore them. But I like learning the more puzzle-oriented aspects of the game, it's what is interesting for me. But I'm embarrassed to admit that it had never occurred to me that what I find interesting others find as boring to them as the button-mashing is to me. So thanks, it always helps to learn to see things from someone else's point of view.

ManDraKE

nhaley54ub17_ESO2 wrote: »

The game wasn't originally designed with Weaving in mind.

Actually it is. If you understood how the combat is build around the global cooldowns, you can easily see that it's an intended design, plus this has been explained many times by the devs and the content difficulty is balanced around DPS output considering LA weaving. Same for PvP, class burst combos and/or pressure rotations are also built around weaving

Amottica

Daggerfell0929 wrote: »

Damage will be going down across the board from this change. No one's will go up.

Players that do not weave will not be affected by the changes to basic attack damage.

But to answer the question in the title, NO!. Players that do low DPS now have bad builds and have not developed the player skill to do high damage. They will not be helped.

Ofc, what happens to the heavy attack builds that do decent damage without requiring much skill will be interesting.

Testing the changes is needed to know the real effect. ATM we are really just guessing.