What purpose does Magicka night blade serve?

Jpk0012

Ganking in PvP.

Holycannoli

Jpk0012 wrote: »

Ganking in PvP.

Agreed. That's what it should excel at. The magblade isn't so great at it compared to the stamblade but yes the nightblade's true role should be DPS from stealth and using stealth to escape. Not heals lol.

PrimusTiberius

Holycannoli wrote: »

Too much homogenization now.

Agree 100%

spacefracking

Jpk0012 wrote: »

Ganking in PvP.

Yep. That's about the size of it.

spacefracking

Troodon80 wrote: »

spacefracking wrote: »

We can talk hps, sure, but when it comes to buffs, where did the night blade lay before the slightly altered refreshing path? Hps, except in select content is much less a priority than buffs, colo's etc. etc. wardens are buff machines.

The person I replied to specifically talked about groups outside of the top 1%, in terms of survival and actual healing. Nightblade is on top this patch, and quite possibly was for many patches but people didn't see it because it wasn't meta. Which also shows the impact that meta has on the collective mindset toward certain classes in certain roles.

In terms of what else they bring.

• AoE Major Projection from the Consuming Darkness/morphs ultimate.
• Superior sustain (only for the user, of course) via Incapacitating Strike being slotted or by using either of the two preferred Siphoning Strikes morphs.
• Hemorrhage's Minor Savagery.
• Major Expedition, Minor Endurance, and Minor Intellect from Refreshing Path (the latter two are the same as Warden, but Warden is a targeted conal heal where Refreshing Path is a persistent AoE heal and affects anyone who steps into it after being cast).
• Debilitate giving guaranteed Minor Magickasteal; it's not huge given that most higher end groups are leaning toward stamina now, but there are a number of magicka skills being used and sustain is still important. Looking outside those groups, a lot of people are still predominantly magicka. With Elemental Drain not really being needed now due to the number of sources of Major Breach, Debilitate serves a purpose here, as well as also doing damage.

That's just naming the most important. Warden is indeed a machine when it comes to buffs, but Nightblade is basically next in line. Second from the top is better than being second from the bottom. Though I would argue every class has a place depending on your group composition.

In more recent content where HPS is important, Nightblade excels. In groups which are not the top 1% where survival is paramount because players don't know mechanics or don't know how much damage they'll take from certain abilities, Nightblade excels. Even more so since those same groups would tend to be on the lower DPS side. Nightblade can also add to DPS and HPS simultaneously in a way that other classes wouldn't normally be able to though abilities like Funnel Health (single target) or Sap Essence (AoE).

1. Consuming darkness can barely be called an ability because of how ridiculous it's properties are, and the utter lack of it ever being a reasonable use of that much ulti
2. Any Magicka attack can apply overcharged, which gives minor Magicka steal. The "every tick" thing is just to add extra damage to each tick because the damage is frontloaded on the 4 second duration of the status effect
3. Minor savagery is about the size of what they bring
4. The only change this patch, which I was quite upfront about, is the marginally improved sustain. In a meta where the best sets are predicated on riding mag or stam at 0 and managing sustain via orbs and other synergies. (Bahsei and whatever the new stam-bahseinis called)
5. And moreover, if we're seriously going to argue the buff standpoint of warden vs NB. Warden provides multiple hot and direct heals, minor endurance and intellect, toughness, *major resolve*, brittle, self buff of *major mending*, and an otherwise very complete set of tools for supporting a group that I haven't mentioned

The majority of what I see in this thread regarding NB healing reads like omega-cope from the 5 mythical NB healers that existed before high isle dropped

MudcrabAttack

So the general consensus seems to be they’re fine for healing, fine for tanking,

And if you don’t like their trial DPS, haven’t you heard you don’t really need that extra 15%-20% DPS? Guess Nightblade DD’s won’t be seeing any improvements with this outpouring of support for the crappy state they’re stuck in

zaria

All magic NB characters will be deleted tonight because they perform 10% worse on the very theoretical trial dummy.
Now NB is probably over nerfed as they are so good as gankers and bombers, done 20 player quest, some has kill 20 NB as we are going to IC
And if you are doing vet dlc trials you should have loads of alts anyway, just for farming CP.

Troodon80

spacefracking wrote: »

1. Consuming darkness can barely be called an ability because of how ridiculous it's properties are, and the utter lack of it ever being a reasonable use of that much ulti
2. Any Magicka attack can apply overcharged, which gives minor Magicka steal. The "every tick" thing is just to add extra damage to each tick because the damage is frontloaded on the 4 second duration of the status effect
3. Minor savagery is about the size of what they bring
4. The only change this patch, which I was quite upfront about, is the marginally improved sustain. In a meta where the best sets are predicated on riding mag or stam at 0 and managing sustain via orbs and other synergies. (Bahsei and whatever the new stam-bahseinis called)
5. And moreover, if we're seriously going to argue the buff standpoint of warden vs NB. Warden provides multiple hot and direct heals, minor endurance and intellect, toughness, *major resolve*, brittle, self buff of *major mending*, and an otherwise very complete set of tools for supporting a group that I haven't mentioned

The majority of what I see in this thread regarding NB healing reads like omega-cope from the 5 mythical NB healers that existed before high isle dropped

1. Again, you're arguing a moot point. The post I was originally replying to specifically mentioned survival and healing outside of the top 1%. AoE Major Protection can be useful, regardless of one's own predjuices toward it.
2. Any Magic based damage -- not magicka abilities -- has a chance to apply it. If you read the various tables which show you this percentage chance, usually between 1% and 10%, with some things having higher than that, you know that chance is actually extremely low compared to someone running an ability with a guaranteed application. Which is why for a long time Debilitate was a staple in raid groups over Crippling Grasp (though only one person needed to run it).
3. Minor Savagery has nothing to do with size. It's a class buff that gives you and your group extra weapon critical rating.
4. Nightblade brings an ability with the same appeal as an ability on Warden, but there's no point discussing it. Okay.
5. Yeah, all absolutely true. But no one was making a comparison that Nightblade was somehow better. This is why Nightblades accompany Wardens, not replace them (Nightblades replace Templar healers).

I'm not going to rise to that last bit. You are very clearly predisposed to not liking Nightblade healers.

Cadbury

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

So the general consensus seems to be they’re fine for healing, fine for tanking,

And if you don’t like their trial DPS, haven’t you heard you don’t really need that extra 15%-20% DPS? Guess Nightblade DD’s won’t be seeing any improvements with this outpouring of support for the crappy state they’re stuck in

Plus, I've seen some claim Oaken+cloak+ Incap = God tier OP. I doubt that helps matters much.

Varana

Holycannoli wrote: »

I'm very much a traditionalist when it comes to MMORPGs. Very defined classes with very defined roles and weaknesses, and let me tell you the classes that had stealth were not invited to groups for their healing abilities lol, or mages to tank or knights for their DPS.

This is Elder Scrolls, though, and as you said, there have been no classes since Daggerfall.

All classes being able to perform in all roles is the best thing since sliced bread.

EnerG

Holycannoli wrote: »

Gothrock wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

Anyone else find it ridiculous that a nightblade is a good healer? The stealthy assassin DPS class?

Nightblade is not a "The stealthy assassin DPS class"

It's supposed to be. That was its original intention, just like sorcerers were summons and elemental DPS, templars excelled at healing and DKs were meant to be the best tanks. I'm talking beta days, the very very beginning of this game. It's why the classes are named as they are.

What's even the point of classes when all classes can do everything? Elder Scrolls never had classes anyway, but ESO did.

Too much homogenization now. We shouldn't have a nightblade join our group and say to ourselves "ooh good we have some heals now". What's the nightblade's defining role? What sets it apart from the other classes?

I'm very much a traditionalist when it comes to MMORPGs. Very defined classes with very defined roles and weaknesses, and let me tell you the classes that had stealth were not invited to groups for their healing abilities lol, or mages to tank or knights for their DPS.

Classes should not be role restricting, thats just absurd, the class identity is how it does things, and how readily the class has diffrent buffs and skills available. A nightblades identity is shadow and damage, and even on a healer or a tank that identity shines through. Nb tank major resolve is litterally a passive off casting the ability that makes you a shadow, and the best heal over times for a nb deal damage or cost hp too cast. That IS their identity.

Foxtrot39

Cadbury wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

So the general consensus seems to be they’re fine for healing, fine for tanking,

And if you don’t like their trial DPS, haven’t you heard you don’t really need that extra 15%-20% DPS? Guess Nightblade DD’s won’t be seeing any improvements with this outpouring of support for the crappy state they’re stuck in

Plus, I've seen some claim Oaken+cloak+ Incap = God tier OP. I doubt that helps matters much.

Anything with oaken become god tier, good thing about it overland as tank became a lot more fun as you don't have to fight basic grunts for +10s (and don't get me started on soloing WB as tank before that)

On another note

About no one use consuming darkness for one simple reason : you get nothing from it,so unless you're in a group play you gimp yourself with a 200 cost ult replaceable by only sloting a skill

Main advantage is it last 20s so people can come in when they need the synergy's healing and get out with major protection for the time left on the ult, the speed boost basicaly allowing them to return faster to their intended position, the caster however is the big looser by only getting major protection from it

Soul syphon on the other hand is cheaper and can burst heal anyone near you back to full health no matter your health pool's size

Holycannoli

Varana wrote: »

Classes should not be role restricting, thats just absurd, the class identity is how it does things, and how readily the class has diffrent buffs and skills available. A nightblades identity is shadow and damage, and even on a healer or a tank that identity shines through. Nb tank major resolve is litterally a passive off casting the ability that makes you a shadow, and the best heal over times for a nb deal damage or cost hp too cast. That IS their identity.

The traditional MMORPG class system is classes with defined roles - tank, DPS, healer, CC depending on the game.

Without defined roles what's the point in having classes?

I'm kind of torn on all of this actually. Homogenization and less strict roles brings this closer to a proper Elder Scrolls game, but it still has classes like a MMORPG. It's weird.

Foxtrot39

Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games

By role it means the basic trinity of tank DD and healer, classes themselves are optionnal, but the flavour/twist they can add has always been welcomed

Djennku

Holycannoli wrote: »

Gothrock wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

Anyone else find it ridiculous that a nightblade is a good healer? The stealthy assassin DPS class?

Nightblade is not a "The stealthy assassin DPS class"

It's supposed to be. That was its original intention, just like sorcerers were summons and elemental DPS, templars excelled at healing and DKs were meant to be the best tanks. I'm talking beta days, the very very beginning of this game. It's why the classes are named as they are.

What's even the point of classes when all classes can do everything? Elder Scrolls never had classes anyway, but ESO did.

Too much homogenization now. We shouldn't have a nightblade join our group and say to ourselves "ooh good we have some heals now". What's the nightblade's defining role? What sets it apart from the other classes?

I'm very much a traditionalist when it comes to MMORPGs. Very defined classes with very defined roles and weaknesses, and let me tell you the classes that had stealth were not invited to groups for their healing abilities lol, or mages to tank or knights for their DPS.

I'd just like to point out that every TES game aside from Skyrim or the spin-offs had classes and specific skills your class excelled in. Going back to Daggerfall and Arena, it was closer to the tabletop DnD setup than what we have now.

The Nightblade and sorcerer are actually two of the classes you can pick starting out the game in the main series titles.

And yes, while each Class in the game has their own unique playstyle, the core foundation of the game is all about choice, and the very role playing aspect of being whoever you decide, so no matter what class (or even race) you pick in the game, it does not restrict you from being able to play a particular role, or prevent you from participating in any content.

Unlike other MMOs like WoW or FFXIV whose classes have a specific set role they play and nothing else, ESO is designed to have minimal restrictions as to what you can do with each class. This freedom of choice is somewhat unique to ESO as far as MMOs go, and one of the reasons it is so successful as a game.

As far as Nightblades are concerned, they do take a more stealthy, stab-you-in-the-back type approach when it comes to the DPS side of things, as seen in their passives. As a dps, Nightblades excel at finishing off opponents during the execute phase of a fight. But in regards to their skill set as a whole, it fits well with tanking and healing too, not just DPS.

Nightblades have a very strong and highly overlooked skill in the siphoning tree called Malevolent offering. It works like you would find the Templar's Breath of Life skill as a burst heal that can affect allies.

Nightblades themselves have alot of utility. Skills like Killer's blade while an execute, has a heal that scales off of your health. Using it as a tank while not necessarily going to kill an enemy, it you hit it and it dies, you get a big heal from the kill. Same with Reaper's Mark, which is a free skill and has a debuff.

There's a lot more they can do along with everything else previously mentioned.

Foxtrot39

The problem with both reapers mark and killers blade as tank is that YOU don't choose when the target dies and therefore can't get the heal when its needed, the heal is however indeed absurd with me hitting +35k with reapers mark if I used it

However those skills are effectively worthless in boss fight with no adds and trash packs don't deal enough damage to you to make it usefull there too

xaraan

Troodon80 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

1st off, this is a good write up IMO.

But, it does show a clear break between the top 1% of end gamer min/max players and everyone else.

Essentially this write up equates to: NB is the best healer b/c it can do some damage to also offer a passive to the group, not because it's actually the best healer in general. (I'm not dismissing the passive, buffing is part of the support job)

While I don't disagree, the numbers I'm generally seeing in terms of raw HPS are equally as powerful as Templar or Warden. When it comes to the role, it's easily up to the player as much as the class itself. If we take a look at this public log, you can see that the Nighblade healer has overall higher HPS than the Warden on Xalvakka. And if you look at raw HPS, they have close to 100k versus the Warden's 65k. People throw around "NB healer is second to worst" -- and it's not just OP -- without fully understanding just how good it actually is or can be, especially now.

And you can look at the other fights in that log as well; the Nightblade healer is getting over 100k raw HPS on Bahsei versus the Warden's 62k, who is Nightblade second worst to again? I'm confused?

I can see this. I don't feel weak when I use my NB healer. A lot of the time doing support with a class that isn't traditional, like when someone starts templar tanking, or NB healing or DK healing, there is also an adjustment period where you have to get used to the fact that class works quite a bit differently than what you might be used to.

My point wasn't to say you were wrong and they were bad explanations. Just that as perfect an explanation of why they are in the top meta groups that was, just wanted to point out that it might not be the answer a lot of players that aren't in that category will make sense for. They won't see any of that when they try the class and the true explanation for them will be much more akin to your info here.

Or, if we have any NB healers or tanks out there, maybe pointing out some significant differences a new player for that class/role can watch out for and tips on skills they should be running, etc. Stats, personal history in the role and such are great for setting up the explanation, but often not much help by themselves for players struggling with a class or role.

I've tanked a lot of every class (but not healed), and I've definitely noticed some big differences between using my NB, Templar, DK, Necro or Warden tanks on various content. Someone that tries to jump onto a NB tank from a DK might just not think to slot a particular skill or use something in a certain way that really makes it feel weaker than it should be. So if anyone knows any easy tips that might set off a lightbulb, we should share them.

I'd also say though for healer, there are other considerations as well as raw healing. If you are in a 4 man dungeon, or a non min-maxed group, a warden healer can feel really powerful b/c you have a huge assortment of buffs to offer a group that they might be missing out on, plus bonus health, a heal they can self synergize, etc. Things that are less noticeable in some other groups that will have enough covered already. So I can see how someone just doing HM dungeons on a warden and shifting to a NB will feel underwhelmed.

xaraan

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

The problem with both reapers mark and killers blade as tank is that YOU don't choose when the target dies and therefore can't get the heal when its needed, the heal is however indeed absurd with me hitting +35k with reapers mark if I used it

However those skills are effectively worthless in boss fight with no adds and trash packs don't deal enough damage to you to make it usefull there too

Yea, I was going to point out much the same thing. Heals that heal after a mob dies are usually not great on a boss fight (maybe a couple out there if you time it right and need the heal when a mob they summon during fight dies). But they are far too situational to be useful and if you need them during regular trash fights, then you have other build issues to work on IMO.

With my NB tank, much like my Templar tank, I found layering HoTs has been the best thing for me. (I know Templar has a couple burst heals, but on a tank they don't hit as hard and can be expensive, so if you aren't built for them, it's better to do without). Anyway, using Vigor with both those classes, keeping path down (or purify on templar) and a couple other options, NBs dark cloak heal is pretty solid. It's not quite a dragon's blood, but should do the trick, especially when you have a few other hots going. One thing on a NB tank is keeping up the Major armor buff, it triggers passively from shadow skills, but has a shorter duration than most armor buffs you trigger with skills, So you either need to get used to this, or use an armor buff from a non class skill line like mage guild or heavy armor. The other big thing is that all classes have a resource management skill, with a NB tank you have to keep in mind to continue making light attacks to recover stam or magicka depending on which morph you need when using syphoning. If you are used to just stomping on rocks to get stam back or standing in your circle for a templar or casting a netch once in a blue moon, you don't wanna get lazy and forget to keep working at it for a NB.

I think the class can tank well enough to do any content, but I can definitely see how someone coming from some other classes will feel like they have to work harder to do the same job sometimes.

Jaimeh

Troodon80 wrote: »

spacefracking wrote: »

2nd worst healing class
No reasonably important buffs
Completely dropped off the leaderboard for most content on eso-logs

You've not seen the World's First Swashbuckler Supreme on EU by Unchained Animals, I assume? Or other scorepushing groups? Or just about any of the highest scoring groups not even aiming for world records?

Wipe on Reset and Unchained Animals on EU both have Nightblade healers. An NA group holding highest score in Rockgrove this patch has a Nightblade healer. Some of the highest scoring groups so far have Nightblade healers. I'm not sure why you consider them "second worst." *Shrug*

There's a reason why end game groups are moving over to Nightblade healing (partially because Templar healing is completely and utterly obsolete). That people are not actively chasing that meta doesn't mean not they're good; it's very much the opposite.

Tbf these groups are not really using them for pure healing, they are doing dps half the trial, so it's the dual potential that these groups are after for, for this role. Same with a lot of sorc healers in top groups. But OP has a point because NB is or was at least a class tailor made for dps and it has been underperforming for a long while, especially for aoe fights. In Cyrodiil necros can bomb better and stamsorcs can gank better, so there is a point to OP's post that NB has been second, third, etc. best in a lot of areas lately.

spacefracking

Troodon80 wrote: »

spacefracking wrote: »

1. Consuming darkness can barely be called an ability because of how ridiculous it's properties are, and the utter lack of it ever being a reasonable use of that much ulti
2. Any Magicka attack can apply overcharged, which gives minor Magicka steal. The "every tick" thing is just to add extra damage to each tick because the damage is frontloaded on the 4 second duration of the status effect
3. Minor savagery is about the size of what they bring
4. The only change this patch, which I was quite upfront about, is the marginally improved sustain. In a meta where the best sets are predicated on riding mag or stam at 0 and managing sustain via orbs and other synergies. (Bahsei and whatever the new stam-bahseinis called)
5. And moreover, if we're seriously going to argue the buff standpoint of warden vs NB. Warden provides multiple hot and direct heals, minor endurance and intellect, toughness, *major resolve*, brittle, self buff of *major mending*, and an otherwise very complete set of tools for supporting a group that I haven't mentioned

The majority of what I see in this thread regarding NB healing reads like omega-cope from the 5 mythical NB healers that existed before high isle dropped

1. Again, you're arguing a moot point. The post I was originally replying to specifically mentioned survival and healing outside of the top 1%. AoE Major Protection can be useful, regardless of one's own predjuices toward it.
2. Any Magic based damage -- not magicka abilities -- has a chance to apply it. If you read the various tables which show you this percentage chance, usually between 1% and 10%, with some things having higher than that, you know that chance is actually extremely low compared to someone running an ability with a guaranteed application. Which is why for a long time Debilitate was a staple in raid groups over Crippling Grasp (though only one person needed to run it).
3. Minor Savagery has nothing to do with size. It's a class buff that gives you and your group extra weapon critical rating.
4. Nightblade brings an ability with the same appeal as an ability on Warden, but there's no point discussing it. Okay.
5. Yeah, all absolutely true. But no one was making a comparison that Nightblade was somehow better. This is why Nightblades accompany Wardens, not replace them (Nightblades replace Templar healers).

I'm not going to rise to that last bit. You are very clearly predisposed to not liking Nightblade healers.

1. I am unsure of where casting consuming darkness is a common thing. It is an incredibly unsuitable ultimate, at a very high cost, in comparison to many, many healer/tank/dps ultimates. I am dumbstruck, as are others, when the synergy the ability offers actually appears on the screen. Soul siphon alone outmodes it on a healer, then we have barrier, horn, etc.
2. While I'll allow for splitting hairs on what I meant by magicka based vs magic based abilities (I am very aware), nb's use daggers, usually with one with the incredibly buffed 240% chance to apply a status effect, or a destro staff, which gives a flat 100% status effect bonus. If a magblade, in a dps role, or even a healer role, isn't keeping high uptime one minor magickasteal, they are not using a complete rotation. The base chances, for reference, are 1% for aoe dots, 3% for single target dots, 5% for aoe direct damage, 10% for single target direct damage, and (if for some reason a nb wants to run a mag steal enchant on frontbar) 25% via enchant procs. With the % buffs from weapon passives, the idea that in the modern day, since overcharged was added as a status effect a few patches back, that debilitate is at all necessary is categorically false, as the status effect lasts 4 seconds. The only case this wouldn't be true is if the magblade is just light attacking or something. And in trial environments, it is *super* not relevant. The buff does not stack, if that was part of any justification for this point.
3. I will admit, minor savagery has become (highly unexpectedly) ever so slightly relevant due to this stam meta that just dropped, it is a single group buff, that among relevant magblade abilities used in any role is augmented solely by the recently altered refreshing path, which doesn't really add all that much to group composition buffs, particularly considering the commonality of other major expedition buffs, the commonality of people running channelled acceleration, etc. Debilitate *may* have been *kind of* a staple at some point, if the healer wasn't doing their job in the pre-bahsei meta, where running mag at 0 wasn't the norm, and healers were running sets for mag/stam regen, and providing minor magickasteal anyway. It's a decent dot, but it isn't even in many non-niche setups this patch because of all this hybridization, and much better dot alternatives. It's a placeholder to get a siphoning ability on frontbar for the 8% magicka buff I guess, but still.....
4. Agreed.
5. The idea that nb's would be chosen over a templar for a healer role, when one isn't already present, is a pretty bizarre statement imo. Purify synergy?? Shards?? I mean, come on....


As a final note, if people really need 100k hps, then they aren't playing their role particularly well, and aren't able to dance around the death circle aoes on the ground in whatever color you have set (I prefer the unnatural pepto bismol pink tiny, but default is red).

So again, I contend that nb is a mediocre healer due to lack of group buff utility, hps above what a warden can provide is a huge crutch, consuming darkness makes 0 sense in pve or pvp (I'd like it to apply major vuln or something, but that's a separate story), and seeing someone try to tank any content of significant difficulty with a nightblade over a necro or dk is like seeing a real living and breathing unicorn standing in a walmart parking lot.

And again, if we're really going to just go on the utility of its execute ability's strength, the crazy execute abilities of the now viable stam classes in pvp makes it about average in the grand scheme of things.

It is the lowest parsing class at present, can basically only gank in pvp (and bombing was tedious anyway, but also now dead), single target parses do matter when a boss has many many millions of health, and are the win condition of any boss fight, and as a result of the previous two items, the sole non-pvp (pvp=shadowy disguise+ganking which is blegh) is the now uncompetitive execute ability that the nightblade employs (except for vas2 I guess?)

In conclusion, in any role, in any fight, in almost any content, there are much better choices than the now lowly magblade, the downtrodden stepchild of meta cycle churn, dlc after dlc, for about as long as I can remember. And no. I'm not going to run a 2h maelstrom backbar with stampede and carve. What is "mag" or ranged about that???

Magblade needs some love. It is sad

spacefracking

Jaimeh wrote: »

Troodon80 wrote: »

spacefracking wrote: »

2nd worst healing class
No reasonably important buffs
Completely dropped off the leaderboard for most content on eso-logs

You've not seen the World's First Swashbuckler Supreme on EU by Unchained Animals, I assume? Or other scorepushing groups? Or just about any of the highest scoring groups not even aiming for world records?

Wipe on Reset and Unchained Animals on EU both have Nightblade healers. An NA group holding highest score in Rockgrove this patch has a Nightblade healer. Some of the highest scoring groups so far have Nightblade healers. I'm not sure why you consider them "second worst." *Shrug*

There's a reason why end game groups are moving over to Nightblade healing (partially because Templar healing is completely and utterly obsolete). That people are not actively chasing that meta doesn't mean not they're good; it's very much the opposite.

Tbf these groups are not really using them for pure healing, they are doing dps half the trial, so it's the dual potential that these groups are after for, for this role. Same with a lot of sorc healers in top groups. But OP has a point because NB is or was at least a class tailor made for dps and it has been underperforming for a long while, especially for aoe fights. In Cyrodiil necros can bomb better and stamsorcs can gank better, so there is a point to OP's post that NB has been second, third, etc. best in a lot of areas lately.

Exactly. What purpose does the magblade even serve anymore?? Score pushers don't need 100,000,000,000 hps. It's not particularly good at anything at this point except (and I say this with some trepidation) as off-healers in score pushing groups, and to top it off it can't even get a nice parse screenshot this patch

Troodon80

Jaimeh wrote: »

Tbf these groups are not really using them for pure healing, they are doing dps half the trial, so it's the dual potential that these groups are after for, for this role.

I don't dispute that at all. However, the OP asked what purpose they serve and threw out a baseless assertion that Nightblades were seconds worst healer. I have refuted that with actual proof and the only replies are moving goalposts and more baseless assertions. I don't see there being anything else to say on it.

Nothing so far has disproven what I initially said (only the assertion that I'm somehow trying to say that Nightblades are better than Wardens, which I never said and is a quite frankly baffling take-away from the discussion; I said they complement each other, not replace). Nightblade healing is effortless and does allow you to do damage simply as part of its toolkit, making it an ideal choice for both new players looking to do solo content and end game score-pushers doing the hardest PvE content (partially because with such high HPS, it potentially allows for just one healer). Which also isn't saying people should go this route.

spacefracking wrote: »

What purpose does the magblade even serve anymore??

Absolutely nothing. As a DPS role, it is lacking on the magicka front and I never contested that, but so much is when compared to those classes you "stack" in any given patch. Current meta is stamina Necros, Sorcerers, and Wardens.

• U33 was DK.
• U32 was DK (as well as Templar and Nightblade, but only through the use of Vampire toggle; but then that was taken away in U33).
• U31 was Nightblade.
• U30 was Nightblade.
• U29 was Necro.
• U28 was Necro.
• U27 was Nightblade.
• U26 was Necro.
• U25 was DK/Necro/Nightblade (arguably one of the better balance updates, but still missing some classes)
• U24 was Necro/Nightblade.
• U23 was Necro.
• U22 was Necro.

Almost everything before that was dominated by Nightblade on the DPS front all the way back to Morrowind (U14) where stamina DKs ruled jointly with Nightblades, and before that it was magicka Templars and Nightblades. In recorded/logged history, Nightblades and Necros have been meta more than any other class. There hasn't been a single patch to date where all classes performed equally as well as each other on the DPS front and I believe there's a reason for that. But that's a whole different tangent for a different topic and a different time.

A couple updates from now and Nightblade will be on top again. Have no fear. And even when they're on top, they'll be saying they're at the bottom. Moreover, if we want to talk about the absolute worst in terms of DPS, where's the love for stamina DK? With more parses than both Warden and Nightblade combined, it has a total DPS considerably lower than anything else.



There's also ZOS's new direction which makes getting statistics on what is truly a magicka Nightblade challenging. If you look at Trial Atronach parses on ESO Logs, there's a whole two parses for magicka Nightblades with a median DPS of 81k (available from one public Log (some optimisations I can think of for this as well which would get substantially higher DPS)). That's not enough data to get any information from. That doesn't mean no one is playing it because it's bad, it means no one uploading public logs for it. Or the people who would upload logs for it are people who will simply chase whatever they see as being the next new meta because getting the nifty, shiny "100k+ DPS" tag in some guid Discord matters to them.

Class and race balance is completely off and should get looked at again.

doesurmindglow

I don't disagree that the class might need some attention in PVE but it is very strong currently in optimized guild compositions ("ball groups") in PVP.

This is because it has:

• Hard CC
• Stealth positioning for stacking/pulls
• Class kit source of Major Evasion and thus access to light armor passives
• A very strong (and recently buffed) healing kit, plus access to Minor Mending on demand
• Minor Savagery, essential for any stamina damage comp
• Crazy high ulti gen, making it a favorite for bringing the Pillager's, Lamia, and Saxhleel sets
• Good scaling on burst AOE damage

Most groups I run with have two magicka nightblade healers and usually a magicka nightblade crown; in many cases there will also be one or more additional magicka nightblade DD(s), and often they'll put up the top damage. I usually play nightblade healer in these comps, and can often clock top HPS playing it, depending on sets/roster/both the game's and my performance/etc.

Cutest Boys is probably the strongest fully comped PVP guild on the PC-NA server and though I do not run with them, I think close to half their comp is magicka or at least hybrid nightblades. Morgan leads his group on a magicka nightblade virtually every raid: https://www.twitch.tv/cptmorgangaming

I'd argue it's "for" at least group (and probably also some styles of solo) PVP. I'm less versed in the meta of PVE so I could be persuaded it is struggling there, though I have seen some very good scorepushing guilds rostering it for healers at least.

luen79rwb17_ESO

It's great for complete dungeon endeavors since you can skip trash and unnecesary bosses really FAST.

Morgaledh

Grianasteri wrote: »

It is possible that at the elite end of the game, NB has less utility. Though I am not sure and plenty in the thread seem to suggest otherwise.

But personally I have several, both mag and stam and I have fun with them all.

PVP, stamina sniper.
PVP, magica bomber.
PVE, magica DPS.
PVE, stamina DPS.

This, exactly. When I see threads say a spec sucks and within a few sentences I see "parse" and "leaderboards" I realize it's a tempest in a teapot and stop reading. That stuff has a place for those who care, no question, and it can help at the outer limits to show what sorts of numbers are possible. But mostly, it devolves into epeening and doesn't matter.

gwdodd

She's my first toon I made, my Grand Master Crafter and writ slave.
After running around High Isle with her, I decided to retire her permanently to writs, master writs and surveys.
She's okay with it.

EmEm_Oh

vivisectvib16_ESO wrote: »

spacefracking wrote: »

2nd worst healing class

lmao no - refreshing path is one of the most powerful HOT's in the game.

Would agree and most don't know it's there. I have to call it out in zone. I've had to do this with both morph versions.

spacefracking

Troodon80 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

Tbf these groups are not really using them for pure healing, they are doing dps half the trial, so it's the dual potential that these groups are after for, for this role.

I don't dispute that at all. However, the OP asked what purpose they serve and threw out a baseless assertion that Nightblades were seconds worst healer. I have refuted that with actual proof and the only replies are moving goalposts and more baseless assertions. I don't see there being anything else to say on it.

Nothing so far has disproven what I initially said (only the assertion that I'm somehow trying to say that Nightblades are better than Wardens, which I never said and is a quite frankly baffling take-away from the discussion; I said they complement each other, not replace). Nightblade healing is effortless and does allow you to do damage simply as part of its toolkit, making it an ideal choice for both new players looking to do solo content and end game score-pushers doing the hardest PvE content (partially because with such high HPS, it potentially allows for just one healer). Which also isn't saying people should go this route.

spacefracking wrote: »

What purpose does the magblade even serve anymore??

Absolutely nothing. As a DPS role, it is lacking on the magicka front and I never contested that, but so much is when compared to those classes you "stack" in any given patch. Current meta is stamina Necros, Sorcerers, and Wardens.

• U33 was DK.
• U32 was DK (as well as Templar and Nightblade, but only through the use of Vampire toggle; but then that was taken away in U33).
• U31 was Nightblade.
• U30 was Nightblade.
• U29 was Necro.
• U28 was Necro.
• U27 was Nightblade.
• U26 was Necro.
• U25 was DK/Necro/Nightblade (arguably one of the better balance updates, but still missing some classes)
• U24 was Necro/Nightblade.
• U23 was Necro.
• U22 was Necro.

Almost everything before that was dominated by Nightblade on the DPS front all the way back to Morrowind (U14) where stamina DKs ruled jointly with Nightblades, and before that it was magicka Templars and Nightblades. In recorded/logged history, Nightblades and Necros have been meta more than any other class. There hasn't been a single patch to date where all classes performed equally as well as each other on the DPS front and I believe there's a reason for that. But that's a whole different tangent for a different topic and a different time.

A couple updates from now and Nightblade will be on top again. Have no fear. And even when they're on top, they'll be saying they're at the bottom. Moreover, if we want to talk about the absolute worst in terms of DPS, where's the love for stamina DK? With more parses than both Warden and Nightblade combined, it has a total DPS considerably lower than anything else.



There's also ZOS's new direction which makes getting statistics on what is truly a magicka Nightblade challenging. If you look at Trial Atronach parses on ESO Logs, there's a whole two parses for magicka Nightblades with a median DPS of 81k (available from one public Log (some optimisations I can think of for this as well which would get substantially higher DPS)). That's not enough data to get any information from. That doesn't mean no one is playing it because it's bad, it means no one uploading public logs for it. Or the people who would upload logs for it are people who will simply chase whatever they see as being the next new meta because getting the nifty, shiny "100k+ DPS" tag in some guid Discord matters to them.

Class and race balance is completely off and should get looked at again.

Yeah, people are genuinely embarassed to post magblade parses this patch. It's that bad. In the post active discord parse channels I know of.

spacefracking

doesurmindglow wrote: »

I don't disagree that the class might need some attention in PVE but it is very strong currently in optimized guild compositions ("ball groups") in PVP.

This is because it has:

• Hard CC
• Stealth positioning for stacking/pulls
• Class kit source of Major Evasion and thus access to light armor passives
• A very strong (and recently buffed) healing kit, plus access to Minor Mending on demand
• Minor Savagery, essential for any stamina damage comp
• Crazy high ulti gen, making it a favorite for bringing the Pillager's, Lamia, and Saxhleel sets
• Good scaling on burst AOE damage

Most groups I run with have two magicka nightblade healers and usually a magicka nightblade crown; in many cases there will also be one or more additional magicka nightblade DD(s), and often they'll put up the top damage. I usually play nightblade healer in these comps, and can often clock top HPS playing it, depending on sets/roster/both the game's and my performance/etc.

Cutest Boys is probably the strongest fully comped PVP guild on the PC-NA server and though I do not run with them, I think close to half their comp is magicka or at least hybrid nightblades. Morgan leads his group on a magicka nightblade virtually every raid: https://www.twitch.tv/cptmorgangaming

I'd argue it's "for" at least group (and probably also some styles of solo) PVP. I'm less versed in the meta of PVE so I could be persuaded it is struggling there, though I have seen some very good scorepushing guilds rostering it for healers at least.

Yeah, nb's are pretty strong in PVP group situations this patch, and can actually sorta solo (tho only for ganking) with oakensoul, but for pve, things are quite grim this patch, no matter what some of the misinformed people in this thread are indicating.

In particular, why is my whole backbar aoe dots for a class that is supposed to be an assassin? Why isn't there a single target toolkit? Loss of class identity in pve

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding.