Mother's Sorrow, Medusa, or Order's Wrath

Remathilis

As an alternative to Kinras for those who don't light-attack weave all that well, I'm wondering which is considered the best option for a weapons and jewels magicka DPS set: Mother's Sorrow, Medusa, or the new Order's Wrath?

Mother's Sorrow
(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(3 items) Adds 657 Critical Chance
(4 items) Adds 657 Critical Chance
(5 items) Adds 1528 Critical Chance

Medusa
(2 items) Adds 657 Critical Chance
(3 items) Adds 657 Critical Chance
(4 items) Adds 657 Critical Chance
(5 items) Adds 892 Critical Chance, Gain Minor Force at all times, increasing your Critical Damage by 10%.

Order's Wrath
(2 items) Adds 657 Critical Chance
(3 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 657 Critical Chance
(5 items) Adds 943 Critical Chance, Increases your Critical Damage and Critical Healing by 8%.

I know Crit was nerfed with the introduction of the cap, but I'm still wondering which would be the best for DPS in PvE content?

Tommy_The_Gun

I would guess many players will swap Medusa for Order's Wrath and have Minor Force buff from some other source, as it will stack.

Browiseth

why not tzogvin? it's a medium set sure, but you can use the jewels + weapon of course

i guess then it's just a real pain in the butt to farm it

BXR_Lonestar

Browiseth wrote: »

why not tzogvin? it's a medium set sure, but you can use the jewels + weapon of course

i guess then it's just a real pain in the butt to farm it

After giving my options a lot of thought, I'm probably going the Tzogvin route as well, at least for my 2 pet sorc. My 2 pet sorc is starved for options to get minor force, and I know the 8% crit damage from Order's wrath would stack with minor force, but I already have golded medusa weapons/jewelry for my petsorc, and thus, running 5 piece tzogvin's will yield me +30% crit damage on top of the innate 50% crit damage that every character has. It also buys me an extra skill slot which is precious on a 2 pet sorc because I don't have to worry about slotting the trap or using the psijic ability that grants minor force. I can then use the Shadow mundus with all divines gear to get as close to the crit damage cap as I can get. Since I'll be low on penetration, the extra pen from Tzogvin will also be a big help.

Remathilis

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

why not tzogvin? it's a medium set sure, but you can use the jewels + weapon of course

i guess then it's just a real pain in the butt to farm it

After giving my options a lot of thought, I'm probably going the Tzogvin route as well, at least for my 2 pet sorc. My 2 pet sorc is starved for options to get minor force, and I know the 8% crit damage from Order's wrath would stack with minor force, but I already have golded medusa weapons/jewelry for my petsorc, and thus, running 5 piece tzogvin's will yield me +30% crit damage on top of the innate 50% crit damage that every character has. It also buys me an extra skill slot which is precious on a 2 pet sorc because I don't have to worry about slotting the trap or using the psijic ability that grants minor force. I can then use the Shadow mundus with all divines gear to get as close to the crit damage cap as I can get. Since I'll be low on penetration, the extra pen from Tzogvin will also be a big help.

The only issue I saw is TW is a royal pain to farm. That said, it is a good option vs Medusa.

It's interesting, I saw a lot of chatter on how OW was op and would replace old staples MS and Medusa, but it doesn't seem like it's going to change anything. Just another set used for master writs?

Browiseth

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

why not tzogvin? it's a medium set sure, but you can use the jewels + weapon of course

i guess then it's just a real pain in the butt to farm it

After giving my options a lot of thought, I'm probably going the Tzogvin route as well, at least for my 2 pet sorc. My 2 pet sorc is starved for options to get minor force, and I know the 8% crit damage from Order's wrath would stack with minor force, but I already have golded medusa weapons/jewelry for my petsorc, and thus, running 5 piece tzogvin's will yield me +30% crit damage on top of the innate 50% crit damage that every character has. It also buys me an extra skill slot which is precious on a 2 pet sorc because I don't have to worry about slotting the trap or using the psijic ability that grants minor force. I can then use the Shadow mundus with all divines gear to get as close to the crit damage cap as I can get. Since I'll be low on penetration, the extra pen from Tzogvin will also be a big help.

yeah i recentlyish swapped to tzog on my stam sorc. it's incredible both in how strong it is but also the quality of life in not needing to slot that damned fighters guild trap. frostvault is however, a real pain in the butt to farm, just takes forever...so good luck!!!

MidniteOwl1913

Frostvault is the one with the mouse? I love that little rat! :-) The bonechill guy is annoying though.

And the laser thing is also a pain, but a good healer helps a lot there.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Frostvault is the one with the mouse? I love that little rat! :-) The bonechill guy is annoying though.

And the laser thing is also a pain, but a good healer helps a lot there.

You might love it now, but after about run 40, you will never want to see that rat again. LOL.

Tzogvin is my personal favorite in this department. It is just not that hard to reach the crit damage cap, so you can probably make situational arguments for OW, as it stacks with minor force, but Tzogvins is my go to front bar set for most of my magic toons.

You can certainly buy an inferno staff carry for Tzogvin (I know because I sold a few), and the jewelry really isnt hard to get (just expensive to make gold).

I would be interested to see how OW stacks up against Kinras as a ST DPS set if you are already running trap.

MidniteOwl1913

"You might love it now, but after about run 40, you will never want to see that rat again. LOL."

Well past that :-) but I have pet rats. That might have something to do with it in my case.

:-) :-)

Tannus15

OW replaces Medusa very nicely. it's slightly less crit and crit damage, but with higher crit damage potential, but most importantly as a crafted set you can wear it on the body in medium or light, so if you want to run something like death dealers fete it makes a massive difference.

tzogvin is also my go to for the front bar because you can keep the stacks and bonuses as long as you are quick and only cast 2 skills at a time on the back

if you really want to go all out you can go OW + Tzogvin

BXR_Lonestar

Remathilis wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

why not tzogvin? it's a medium set sure, but you can use the jewels + weapon of course

i guess then it's just a real pain in the butt to farm it

After giving my options a lot of thought, I'm probably going the Tzogvin route as well, at least for my 2 pet sorc. My 2 pet sorc is starved for options to get minor force, and I know the 8% crit damage from Order's wrath would stack with minor force, but I already have golded medusa weapons/jewelry for my petsorc, and thus, running 5 piece tzogvin's will yield me +30% crit damage on top of the innate 50% crit damage that every character has. It also buys me an extra skill slot which is precious on a 2 pet sorc because I don't have to worry about slotting the trap or using the psijic ability that grants minor force. I can then use the Shadow mundus with all divines gear to get as close to the crit damage cap as I can get. Since I'll be low on penetration, the extra pen from Tzogvin will also be a big help.

The only issue I saw is TW is a royal pain to farm. That said, it is a good option vs Medusa.

It's interesting, I saw a lot of chatter on how OW was op and would replace old staples MS and Medusa, but it doesn't seem like it's going to change anything. Just another set used for master writs?

I think everyone did what I did when I first saw Order's wrath - I thought the 8% crit damage was just a flat 8% damage increase (not crit damage increase). If that was the case, then Order's Wrath would pair very well with Medusa OR Tzogvin and would probably have been pretty OP because you would get extra crit damage ontop of the flat 8% damage increase. But that's not the case.

As far as TW being a pain to farm - I already have all the pieces I need, I just need the transmutes to recon in the traits that I want, and for right now, my priority is reconning sets for my tanks to load them up with Trial sets rather than 4 man setups for vet dungeons.

BXR_Lonestar

Tannus15 wrote: »

OW replaces Medusa very nicely. it's slightly less crit and crit damage, but with higher crit damage potential, but most importantly as a crafted set you can wear it on the body in medium or light, so if you want to run something like death dealers fete it makes a massive difference.

tzogvin is also my go to for the front bar because you can keep the stacks and bonuses as long as you are quick and only cast 2 skills at a time on the back

if you really want to go all out you can go OW + Tzogvin

Tzogvin's downside is that you can't use weapons on Tzogvin without losing stacks. Same with Relequens and Kinra - If you have any of those sets on weapons/jewelry you tend to lose the stacks you built up when you swap. That reduces your ability to use a maelstrom weapon like bow or desto staff.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

OW replaces Medusa very nicely. it's slightly less crit and crit damage, but with higher crit damage potential, but most importantly as a crafted set you can wear it on the body in medium or light, so if you want to run something like death dealers fete it makes a massive difference.

tzogvin is also my go to for the front bar because you can keep the stacks and bonuses as long as you are quick and only cast 2 skills at a time on the back

if you really want to go all out you can go OW + Tzogvin

Tzogvin's downside is that you can't use weapons on Tzogvin without losing stacks. Same with Relequens and Kinra - If you have any of those sets on weapons/jewelry you tend to lose the stacks you built up when you swap. That reduces your ability to use a maelstrom weapon like bow or desto staff.

Never had an issue with losing stacks with Tzogvin. Once I get the buff up, it stays up unless I am on back bar for longer than I would ever be during a standard DPS rotation. Same with Kinra's. Once you build stacks, its easy to keep them up. I usually see Major Berzerk between 90-95% uptime on a parse. Both are Excellent front bar sets. I would never run them on the body.

Relequen is a different animal. Needs to be on the body. From the tooltips, you would think they are all the same, but in reality, they dont seem to be. Not sure I have a great explanation as to why, but the general consensus is that Tzogvin and Kinra are front bar (weapon sets) and Relequen is a body set.

Not positive on this but I think with tzogvin and kinra, once you hit max stacks, you have a full 5 seconds to get in another front bar light attack to keep the buff alive. Pretty unusual that you cast 5 skills from your back bar.

mocap

tzogvin + order

BXR_Lonestar

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

OW replaces Medusa very nicely. it's slightly less crit and crit damage, but with higher crit damage potential, but most importantly as a crafted set you can wear it on the body in medium or light, so if you want to run something like death dealers fete it makes a massive difference.

tzogvin is also my go to for the front bar because you can keep the stacks and bonuses as long as you are quick and only cast 2 skills at a time on the back

if you really want to go all out you can go OW + Tzogvin

Tzogvin's downside is that you can't use weapons on Tzogvin without losing stacks. Same with Relequens and Kinra - If you have any of those sets on weapons/jewelry you tend to lose the stacks you built up when you swap. That reduces your ability to use a maelstrom weapon like bow or desto staff.

Never had an issue with losing stacks with Tzogvin. Once I get the buff up, it stays up unless I am on back bar for longer than I would ever be during a standard DPS rotation. Same with Kinra's. Once you build stacks, its easy to keep them up. I usually see Major Berzerk between 90-95% uptime on a parse. Both are Excellent front bar sets. I would never run them on the body.

Relequen is a different animal. Needs to be on the body. From the tooltips, you would think they are all the same, but in reality, they dont seem to be. Not sure I have a great explanation as to why, but the general consensus is that Tzogvin and Kinra are front bar (weapon sets) and Relequen is a body set.

Not positive on this but I think with tzogvin and kinra, once you hit max stacks, you have a full 5 seconds to get in another front bar light attack to keep the buff alive. Pretty unusual that you cast 5 skills from your back bar.

Its probably because I'm a support main and I'm a lazy DPS, so when it comes to my rotation, I basically do a light attack in between every ability till I have my AoE/DoT's up and then repeat with just my spammable till I have to reset. My highest DPS characters are around 56K DPS though, and not even with maximized sets. If I can reach 60K without or more without a dynamic rotation, I'd be stoked. But I'd say 75-80% of the time, I play Healer/Tank anyways.

Browiseth

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

OW replaces Medusa very nicely. it's slightly less crit and crit damage, but with higher crit damage potential, but most importantly as a crafted set you can wear it on the body in medium or light, so if you want to run something like death dealers fete it makes a massive difference.

tzogvin is also my go to for the front bar because you can keep the stacks and bonuses as long as you are quick and only cast 2 skills at a time on the back

if you really want to go all out you can go OW + Tzogvin

Tzogvin's downside is that you can't use weapons on Tzogvin without losing stacks. Same with Relequens and Kinra - If you have any of those sets on weapons/jewelry you tend to lose the stacks you built up when you swap. That reduces your ability to use a maelstrom weapon like bow or desto staff.

Never had an issue with losing stacks with Tzogvin. Once I get the buff up, it stays up unless I am on back bar for longer than I would ever be during a standard DPS rotation. Same with Kinra's. Once you build stacks, its easy to keep them up. I usually see Major Berzerk between 90-95% uptime on a parse. Both are Excellent front bar sets. I would never run them on the body.

Relequen is a different animal. Needs to be on the body. From the tooltips, you would think they are all the same, but in reality, they dont seem to be. Not sure I have a great explanation as to why, but the general consensus is that Tzogvin and Kinra are front bar (weapon sets) and Relequen is a body set.

Not positive on this but I think with tzogvin and kinra, once you hit max stacks, you have a full 5 seconds to get in another front bar light attack to keep the buff alive. Pretty unusual that you cast 5 skills from your back bar.

i think also it will depend on your other gear as well. i run tzogvin + pillar of nirn, with pillar being my front bar, so maintaining tzogvin becomes pretty easy, especially during trash fights where my backbar 2h is dedicated to aoe

but yea i suppose in a very meta trial setting where you'd be using rele, you'd want rele + front bar tzog

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Browiseth wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

OW replaces Medusa very nicely. it's slightly less crit and crit damage, but with higher crit damage potential, but most importantly as a crafted set you can wear it on the body in medium or light, so if you want to run something like death dealers fete it makes a massive difference.

tzogvin is also my go to for the front bar because you can keep the stacks and bonuses as long as you are quick and only cast 2 skills at a time on the back

if you really want to go all out you can go OW + Tzogvin

Tzogvin's downside is that you can't use weapons on Tzogvin without losing stacks. Same with Relequens and Kinra - If you have any of those sets on weapons/jewelry you tend to lose the stacks you built up when you swap. That reduces your ability to use a maelstrom weapon like bow or desto staff.

Never had an issue with losing stacks with Tzogvin. Once I get the buff up, it stays up unless I am on back bar for longer than I would ever be during a standard DPS rotation. Same with Kinra's. Once you build stacks, its easy to keep them up. I usually see Major Berzerk between 90-95% uptime on a parse. Both are Excellent front bar sets. I would never run them on the body.

Relequen is a different animal. Needs to be on the body. From the tooltips, you would think they are all the same, but in reality, they dont seem to be. Not sure I have a great explanation as to why, but the general consensus is that Tzogvin and Kinra are front bar (weapon sets) and Relequen is a body set.

Not positive on this but I think with tzogvin and kinra, once you hit max stacks, you have a full 5 seconds to get in another front bar light attack to keep the buff alive. Pretty unusual that you cast 5 skills from your back bar.

i think also it will depend on your other gear as well. i run tzogvin + pillar of nirn, with pillar being my front bar, so maintaining tzogvin becomes pretty easy, especially during trash fights where my backbar 2h is dedicated to aoe

but yea i suppose in a very meta trial setting where you'd be using rele, you'd want rele + front bar tzog

Yeah, I think the reality is that it comes down to a spectrum. Ideally, most sets work best on the body. Doesn't matter if they are a proc, stack based, or flat stats. Tzogvin, Medusa, Kinra, Pillar, all lean further towards being a front bar set then other meta sets like Relequen and Bahsei.

I remember when this same debate was going on with Mother's Sorrow/Siroria and MS staffs where selling for lots of money while people also farmed the heck out of Siroria Staffs (I paid a million gold for my perfected one, stupid thing would not drop for me, LOL). The difference on a min/maxed parse between MS and Siroria being front/back or back/front was like 2-3k, if that.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

OW replaces Medusa very nicely. it's slightly less crit and crit damage, but with higher crit damage potential, but most importantly as a crafted set you can wear it on the body in medium or light, so if you want to run something like death dealers fete it makes a massive difference.

tzogvin is also my go to for the front bar because you can keep the stacks and bonuses as long as you are quick and only cast 2 skills at a time on the back

if you really want to go all out you can go OW + Tzogvin

Tzogvin's downside is that you can't use weapons on Tzogvin without losing stacks. Same with Relequens and Kinra - If you have any of those sets on weapons/jewelry you tend to lose the stacks you built up when you swap. That reduces your ability to use a maelstrom weapon like bow or desto staff.

Never had an issue with losing stacks with Tzogvin. Once I get the buff up, it stays up unless I am on back bar for longer than I would ever be during a standard DPS rotation. Same with Kinra's. Once you build stacks, its easy to keep them up. I usually see Major Berzerk between 90-95% uptime on a parse. Both are Excellent front bar sets. I would never run them on the body.

Relequen is a different animal. Needs to be on the body. From the tooltips, you would think they are all the same, but in reality, they dont seem to be. Not sure I have a great explanation as to why, but the general consensus is that Tzogvin and Kinra are front bar (weapon sets) and Relequen is a body set.

Not positive on this but I think with tzogvin and kinra, once you hit max stacks, you have a full 5 seconds to get in another front bar light attack to keep the buff alive. Pretty unusual that you cast 5 skills from your back bar.

Its probably because I'm a support main and I'm a lazy DPS, so when it comes to my rotation, I basically do a light attack in between every ability till I have my AoE/DoT's up and then repeat with just my spammable till I have to reset. My highest DPS characters are around 56K DPS though, and not even with maximized sets. If I can reach 60K without or more without a dynamic rotation, I'd be stoked. But I'd say 75-80% of the time, I play Healer/Tank anyways.

I mean absolutely no disrespect at all, but at that DPS level, it simply doesn't matter how you set it up. Most of these differences are so subtle that if you arent at the bleeding edge of DPS, you simply wont notice it. I will say, you can certainly get well over 100k these days with static rotations. Now, they arent the simplest rotations, but they are static. That said, a static rotation to break 100k still requires, a good weave, pace of about .9 LA/sec, and you need to do the little things like open, execute, potion, and ulti use.

ADarklore

According to Deltia... Order's Wrath is the 'best craftable set ever'. Which means next month it will be nerfed into the ground because a streamer came out and talked about its usefulness. Same thing happened when he posted about Carve and Stampede being the best skills, the very next update both were nerfed into the ground.

Finedaible

ADarklore wrote: »

According to Deltia... Order's Wrath is the 'best craftable set ever'. Which means next month it will be nerfed into the ground because a streamer came out and talked about its usefulness. Same thing happened when he posted about Carve and Stampede being the best skills, the very next update both were nerfed into the ground.

I predict they will randomly nerf it for no convincing reason just like they did to New Moon Acolyte in the past.

Kahnak

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

why not tzogvin? it's a medium set sure, but you can use the jewels + weapon of course

i guess then it's just a real pain in the butt to farm it

After giving my options a lot of thought, I'm probably going the Tzogvin route as well, at least for my 2 pet sorc. My 2 pet sorc is starved for options to get minor force, and I know the 8% crit damage from Order's wrath would stack with minor force, but I already have golded medusa weapons/jewelry for my petsorc, and thus, running 5 piece tzogvin's will yield me +30% crit damage on top of the innate 50% crit damage that every character has. It also buys me an extra skill slot which is precious on a 2 pet sorc because I don't have to worry about slotting the trap or using the psijic ability that grants minor force. I can then use the Shadow mundus with all divines gear to get as close to the crit damage cap as I can get. Since I'll be low on penetration, the extra pen from Tzogvin will also be a big help.

If you're wearing 7 pieces of light, Tzogvin may actually be putting you over the pen cap in an organized group, considering all of the additional non-unique penetration bonuses support can provide now. I think Tzogvin is a great option for pet sorc, as well, but you may have throw on a medium piece or two to get the most out of it.

Kahnak

ADarklore wrote: »

According to Deltia... Order's Wrath is the 'best craftable set ever'. Which means next month it will be nerfed into the ground because a streamer came out and talked about its usefulness. Same thing happened when he posted about Carve and Stampede being the best skills, the very next update both were nerfed into the ground.

Considering most DPS are still using a 2H Maelstrom backbar, they obviously weren't nerfed into the ground.

VadimAleks

What about Medusa+OW? This allows you to have capped crit damage without a Shadow mundus(and you can take something else, for example, Lover, which in total will give more).

jaws343

VadimAleks wrote: »

What about Medusa+OW? This allows you to have capped crit damage without a Shadow mundus(and you can take something else, for example, Lover, which in total will give more).

This is actually what I am considering. Which will really just be me replacing False God with OW on my body for my solo build. Try to push my crit chance to 75%+, especially with the new mythic added in as well.

WrathOfInnos

Order's Wrath is just a better form of Medusa. You can wear it on armor pieces in light or medium weight. You can run Barbed Trap with it and get 18% crit damage. And the best part is that you don't have to farm Arx.

Tzogvins can outperform OW if you need a front bar set (the bonus carries over to back bar for up to 5s), and you don't have bar space for Barbed Trap. In most cases I'd recommend just using Advancing Yokeda as a front bar crit set and fitting Barbed Trap on one of your bars.

Quethrosar

only weapon critical on tzogvins? what good is that for spell casters?

Grianasteri

Quethrosar wrote: »

only weapon critical on tzogvins? what good is that for spell casters?

I think you may be mistaken

https://eso-sets.com/set/tzogvins-warband

I run both Mothers Sorrow and Medusa on my Magblade crit build. Works just fine so I cant really be bothered farming for something similar, even if a few more % dps could be squeezed out. I do have a set of Tzogvin laying around, so may play about with that at some point.

Quethrosar

read something that said weapon critical on something lol. been so many sets it's all a blur.

Kahnak

These sets are probably within 1% DPS of each other. It seems like it would be more situational than anything else.

CountonMe

ADarklore wrote: »

According to Deltia... Order's Wrath is the 'best craftable set ever'. Which means next month it will be nerfed into the ground because a streamer came out and talked about its usefulness. Same thing happened when he posted about Carve and Stampede being the best skills, the very next update both were nerfed into the ground.

Has Alcast talked about OW at all? It's nowhere to be found on his website. Not even on the "Other viable sets" page where he puts things like MS, Tzo, and Siroria

Necrotech_Master

orders wrath is still good but they released a new set with firesong dlc that is slightly better (gourmand set from the overland)

CameraBeardThePirate

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

orders wrath is still good but they released a new set with firesong dlc that is slightly better (gourmand set from the overland)

Actually, Order's Wrath is still better than Gourmand (only a tiny bit however). A lot of people are being fooled by the higher crit damage number of Gourmand, but you have to remember Order's Wrath is also increasing your crit chance by more than what Gourmand is. They end up working out to be about the same, with Order's Wrath still coming out just ahead of Gourmand.