Is 5 guild slots enough in 2022? Is 500 members?

RPGOverlord

Hey all!

I will be offering my viewpoint from a console perspective - Xbox EU

Personally, I'm someone that started the game when it came out on console and got to VR 2 back in the day, then I quit gaming on the console for a long time as I was too busy in real life.
I picked up the game again in January 2021 and played with my brother and a real-life friend. We never invited anyone to the 4th spot in our groups, never did any vet content or even take the game that seriously. They then both quit the game as they lost interest over time as grinding was never something they really enjoyed to do the more difficult content.

Between January and April 2021 I joined 5 guilds.
It was one trader guild, one pvp, and three casual that had 20 members online at one-time maximum.
^ When I say trader guilds, these are guilds that always have a spot on Xbox EU at Mournhold, Wayrest or Elden Root that only exist for the purpose of selling items and don't do any other content.

Now this is where the problem of only being 5 guild slots start to happen as a new player to late game content on Xbox EU:

The server population is low on our server, we can't even get two bars throughout the day on a weekend in cyrodiil anymore for each faction for Grayhost. This has meant that the more prominent guilds don't have many members that are very active and will only appear to perhaps do writs; but due to the length of time these guilds have existed, these members might've done a lot for their guild over the years, so wouldn't get kicked out of respect for that. - So as a new player to guilds at the time, this meant that the community I wanted to engage with in some guilds wasn't there anymore and ended up as just guild trader slots in an attempt to sell items to catch up for harder content.

As time has gone by guilds on the server have focused mainly on one area of the game, so trader guilds, trials etc. It's because of this segmentation combined with the activity levels of the guilds, that you might need to join multiple to progress to the level you wish (such as multiple trial guilds) more than ever as the content isn't run by many guilds frequently or already have preestablished progressive teams.

So would increasing the guild slots by +1 and the capacity of members from 500 to 600 alleviate this problem? Does it need to be higher than this?
Does anyone on console also find this happening on their server/what is your experience of guilds?
Does PC have the same issues as we currently do with new members' intake/activity and segmentation of guilds to focus on one area of the game?

* Also if any developers are looking at this, please allow us on the console to reorder our guilds in the UI. It means that leaving a guild changes the keyboard shortcut of /g1 /g2 etc for the relevant guild. (Not sure if it's the same on PC)

VaranisArano

The 500 member limit seems tied to the overhead from Guild Histories and trading slots. We've seen ZOS turn off guild histories before because of performance issues exacerbated by PC add-ons. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/481041/update-on-guild-history-related-performance-issue/p1

In addition, the 500 member limit means each trader has a maximum of 15,000 items for sale to search through. ZOS would have to adjust their capabilities to account for more listings.

Finally, on PC, most trading guilds have a lot of turnover from players who join and then go inactive. So there's rarely a case where a player who wants a trading guild cannot join because every guild they try is full.

OneWingedAnge7

I don't mind 500 players per guild, but for the love of God we need more guild slots and the ability to organise them. Neither will ever happen though.

Nestor

I have been running with 4 guilds, one being a Personal Bank guild for almost 2 years now. The other 3 are social, although 2 of them get a trader on a regular basis. Not prime but i move everything.

Hvíthákarl

I think that being able to rearrange them (which you can already do with an addon, but for Mauloch's sake just add it to the game, console gamers deserve to get it!) is more urgent but yeah, give us more guild slots, ZoS!

Ondolemir

The idea of guild slots is ridiculous tbh. You should only be able to join one guild, but I will agree that 500 member limit should be increased. The idea of a guild or clan is to build a community. Guilds exist today in eso as pawn shops for users to come to sell their goods, do a run, and leave. The staying power of guilds is difficult these days. The sense of community is diminished and it is saddening to see. Tbh it's probably the worst part of this game.
I would relish the day Zos drops a grand exchange and lowers guild capacity to 1. I somehow doubt I will ever see it though sadly.

Amottica

More than enough.

kargen27

Ondolemir wrote: »

The idea of guild slots is ridiculous tbh. You should only be able to join one guild, but I will agree that 500 member limit should be increased. The idea of a guild or clan is to build a community. Guilds exist today in eso as pawn shops for users to come to sell their goods, do a run, and leave. The staying power of guilds is difficult these days. The sense of community is diminished and it is saddening to see. Tbh it's probably the worst part of this game.
I would relish the day Zos drops a grand exchange and lowers guild capacity to 1. I somehow doubt I will ever see it though sadly.

I've been in guilds that tried to do everything. They have mostly failed as the members leave for more specialized guilds. I think the problem is lack of players willing to lead in these guilds. It takes a lot of people to plan and run all the different activities. PvP usually seems to be the first to go in a casual or social guild. That might be because of performance though.

I think it is good that people can join different guilds with different interests.

SainguinKrist

5 is plenty. 500 per is plenty.

Try leading a guild for a while and your perspective on that 500 number changes quite a bit.

Tandor

5 guilds is 4 more than pretty well any other game ( I can't think of any other but there may be the odd one), and 4 more than would be required in this game if it had a conventional trading system. As for specialised guilds, these aren't necessary or generally promoted in games that only allow one guild, and in a single-guild game there is a far greater sense of commitment and loyalty than is likely in a game in which your commitment and loyalty to one guild are diluted by your membership of up to four other guilds.

There is an alternative scenario to "one guild or five". While I no longer bother with guilds, if I did I would personally prefer a guild system in which each character could join only one guild, but different characters on the account could either join the same guild, different guilds, or none. The fact that guild systems are based around all your characters automatically being forced into the same guild is one reason why I don't do guilds any more. Of course, I would also prefer a guild system in which the game didn't force you into a guild in order to access such a basic game function as trading - which for many players seems to be the only reason to join multiple guilds in the first place.

Although I have no firm evidence on this, I have long suspected that multiple guild membership is one cause of at least some of the performance issues affecting ESO, especially loading times, given the amount of data that has to be loaded and updated, which is a prime reason why I would be against increasing the guild slots any further. While it wouldn't affect me directly, it would do so indirectly if it caused additional database and performance issues that ZOS claimed could only be resolved by removing from the game further core systems that I enjoy.

Lysette

I personally do not like mixed guilds, which try to do everything and in the end do nothing in a way, which would be convincing. In a trading guild, I expect that the guild is able to consistently have a decent trader - if not, then it's not a trading guild, but a wannabe guild. Furthermore I expect that the guild roster is managed in a way, which keeps the guild highly active, that the guild revenue is high and the guild is able to bid on multiple top spots and we will always have a really good trader. I don't want a trading guild which has raffles or whatever other fluff they are promoting - it is a trading guild not a casino - if their members are not able to finance the guild with their trading activities, then it is terribly managed.

SimonThesis

I would love the option to buy more guild slots! Zos is loosing money not selling guild slots. Especially when you have more time over the summer. That way people can be in 5 trading guilds, a Pvp guild, a vTrials guild, a social guild etc.

wolfie1.0.

VaranisArano wrote: »

The 500 member limit seems tied to the overhead from Guild Histories and trading slots. We've seen ZOS turn off guild histories before because of performance issues exacerbated by PC add-ons. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/481041/update-on-guild-history-related-performance-issue/p1

In addition, the 500 member limit means each trader has a maximum of 15,000 items for sale to search through. ZOS would have to adjust their capabilities to account for more listings.

Finally, on PC, most trading guilds have a lot of turnover from players who join and then go inactive. So there's rarely a case where a player who wants a trading guild cannot join because every guild they try is full.

This. I wish it weren't the case and tha guild roster sizes could be increased but... well zos can't do anything like this without fixing the servers for other areas first.

Wolfpaw

I dislike the guild and trade system, I'm oldschool I suppose, one dedicated guild & one central trade system.

VaranisArano

Ondolemir wrote: »

The idea of guild slots is ridiculous tbh. You should only be able to join one guild, but I will agree that 500 member limit should be increased. The idea of a guild or clan is to build a community. Guilds exist today in eso as pawn shops for users to come to sell their goods, do a run, and leave. The staying power of guilds is difficult these days. The sense of community is diminished and it is saddening to see. Tbh it's probably the worst part of this game.
I would relish the day Zos drops a grand exchange and lowers guild capacity to 1. I somehow doubt I will ever see it though sadly.

Be a bit of a shame to leave my tiny guild of IRL friends, or the trading guild, or the PVP guild...

Hapexamendios

I'm fine with both limits.

wolfie1.0.

Tandor wrote: »

5 guilds is 4 more than pretty well any other game ( I can't think of any other but there may be the odd one), and 4 more than would be required in this game if it had a conventional trading system. As for specialised guilds, these aren't necessary or generally promoted in games that only allow one guild, and in a single-guild game there is a far greater sense of commitment and loyalty than is likely in a game in which your commitment and loyalty to one guild are diluted by your membership of up to four other guilds.

There is an alternative scenario to "one guild or five". While I no longer bother with guilds, if I did I would personally prefer a guild system in which each character could join only one guild, but different characters on the account could either join the same guild, different guilds, or none. The fact that guild systems are based around all your characters automatically being forced into the same guild is one reason why I don't do guilds any more. Of course, I would also prefer a guild system in which the game didn't force you into a guild in order to access such a basic game function as trading - which for many players seems to be the only reason to join multiple guilds in the first place.

Although I have no firm evidence on this, I have long suspected that multiple guild membership is one cause of at least some of the performance issues affecting ESO, especially loading times, given the amount of data that has to be loaded and updated, which is a prime reason why I would be against increasing the guild slots any further. While it wouldn't affect me directly, it would do so indirectly if it caused additional database and performance issues that ZOS claimed could only be resolved by removing from the game further core systems that I enjoy.

ZOS has confirmed that guild history and queries to it have caused server issues.

Zos could probably limit 1 guild per account. But that would cause a lot of issues. I would only accept sacrificing 4 of my guilds if ZOS gave us some massive guild management tools. Activity trackers, contribution tracking, mail send history, dedicated guild houses. Guild announcements in guild chat, actual guild houses that can hold more furnishings and more people, larger guild membership (2000 min) and more trader sell slots.

That is what I want. If zos gives us that then I will sacrifice 4 of my guild slots

SilverBride

I'm only in one guild at a time. I tried being in two once but found it annoying.

katanagirl1

Guilds that try to do everything do not work for me, especially if PvP is one of their components. Having multiple factions in the same guild doesn’t work.

Also, casual guilds who list housing in their write-up generally don’t have a strong presence there. They are mostly social guilds.

My trading guild does trials but they expect everyone to be vet level trials ready so that doesn’t work for me. If I wanted to get into trials seriously, I’d have to join a trials guild.

So I feel one guild is not enough but five has been sufficient for me. Currently in two guilds

M0ntie

Definitely need more guild slots. It is preferable to be in the in game guild with the trials groups that you run with, and to do this needs more than 5 guilds.
It would also be great is the Options settings for guild chats were by default different colours, not all green. And the colour setting should be account wide, not per character. The colour should also stay with the guild, not reshuffle by order so that when you leave a guild, all the colours for guilds lower down the list all change.

FlopsyPrince

Tandor wrote: »

5 guilds is 4 more than pretty well any other game ( I can't think of any other but there may be the odd one), and 4 more than would be required in this game if it had a conventional trading system. As for specialised guilds, these aren't necessary or generally promoted in games that only allow one guild, and in a single-guild game there is a far greater sense of commitment and loyalty than is likely in a game in which your commitment and loyalty to one guild are diluted by your membership of up to four other guilds.

There is an alternative scenario to "one guild or five". While I no longer bother with guilds, if I did I would personally prefer a guild system in which each character could join only one guild, but different characters on the account could either join the same guild, different guilds, or none. The fact that guild systems are based around all your characters automatically being forced into the same guild is one reason why I don't do guilds any more. Of course, I would also prefer a guild system in which the game didn't force you into a guild in order to access such a basic game function as trading - which for many players seems to be the only reason to join multiple guilds in the first place.

Although I have no firm evidence on this, I have long suspected that multiple guild membership is one cause of at least some of the performance issues affecting ESO, especially loading times, given the amount of data that has to be loaded and updated, which is a prime reason why I would be against increasing the guild slots any further. While it wouldn't affect me directly, it would do so indirectly if it caused additional database and performance issues that ZOS claimed could only be resolved by removing from the game further core systems that I enjoy.

Most games don't tie sales to guilds. Keep that in mind!

HerrKeinTipp_MrNoTip

All the "I am fine with one guild/five guilds" type responses...

Cool bananas.

This post is about people who are not.

[snip]

[edited for baiting]

wolfie1.0.

HerrKeinTipp_MrNoTip wrote: »

All the "I am fine with one guild/five guilds" type responses...

Cool bananas.

This post is about people who are not.

[snip]

[edited for baiting]

OK. Well first of all what typically goes live on console servers has to be implemented on PC servers first. The way in which raising the guild limits in bot membership and in how many Guilds you can join will impact QOL is simple really. At best there will be more instances of lag, at worst we see multiple instances of server crashes.

And yes it can be that bad as there is documented instances of guild history functions and queries bringing the system down. So there is a max capacity, what that is... well only ZOS knows. But we are near the top of it. Such capacities are the causes of all of the lag, housing limits being capped, achievements going account wide, hybridization, and why we havn't gotten new classes or skill lines in blackwood or high isle.

ResidentContrarian

No idea, but I would never want to be in a large guild. 5 slots enough for me, and I only am in smaller guilds.

Amottica

HerrKeinTipp_MrNoTip wrote: »

All the "I am fine with one guild/five guilds" type responses...

Cool bananas.

This post is about people who are not.

[snip]

[edited for baiting]

I think the better responses would be why 5 guilds fail to be sufficient.

It is that camp that is trying to influence the status quo. That camp is the one that needs to demonstrate to Zenimax a compelling reason to add more load to the server or 5 guilds will remain the cap.

agelonestar

I don't really understand why anyone would object to more guild slots, or an increase in the number of members a guild can have.

One of the reasons I'd like to see an expansion to the limits is that guild tend to specialise - trade guilds do trade, PVP guilds do PVP, you might have a broad PVE guild but often you'll find Trial guilds, dungeon guilds, etc. Social guilds tend to do none of these things very well. So if you play across a broad spectrum of content, you're likely to find yourself running out of slots pretty quickly.

So, yeah, another guild slot would be useful. Failing that give me more inventory space so I'm not using a guild slot as a personal bank.

SilverBride

agelonestar wrote: »

I don't really understand why anyone would object to more guild slots, or an increase in the number of members a guild can have.

Because it will use a lot of data and I don't want any more cuts like we had with Account Wide Achievements.

zaria

SilverBride wrote: »

I'm only in one guild at a time. I tried being in two once but found it annoying.

One guild only has the obvious downside that you have to leave your guild to join another who is an leap of faith.
My WOW guild was very nice but it was small and had some weird infighting at the top who made it smaller.
I did not want to leave them as they was friends but they had problems doing raids.

In ESO I have one PvP guild, 3 PvE guild and one trading guild, the PvP one tend to have an trader to.
One of my PvE guild is not very active so on my dump list if I get into another nice one.
One of the PvE does a lot of trials, the other my friends are into DLC dungeons from normal farming to achievements.
The trading guilds also do trials but above my level.

FeedbackOnly

Not necessarily a guild but I would like a way to hang out with new people sometimes just to chat

Tandor

SilverBride wrote: »

agelonestar wrote: »

I don't really understand why anyone would object to more guild slots, or an increase in the number of members a guild can have.

Because it will use a lot of data and I don't want any more cuts like we had with Account Wide Achievements.

Same here.

Plus, I can imagine GMs being legitimately concerned that additional guild slots would dilute members' commitment and loyalty to their own guild even more than the present number of their additional guilds. It would also generate increased competition for traders, the likelihood being that most players would simply use the additional guild slot for another trading guild.

FeedbackOnly

Okay new idea what if we could post events so we could join other guilds for get together like fishing night in cydrolli