Another Guild Bites The Dust (Major Rant)

demonssnightfireb14_ESO

Hello:
Once again guilds have left me with a bad taste in my mouth and have soured me on even playing this game as a mmo and simply doing solo quests and content, I am a 60 yr old veteran and family man. I have a 33 yr old autistic son who has 2 master's degrees and teaches middle school science. I am a supervisor for a very well known company and have been for over 7 yrs. My game time is my relaxation time and no I don't always know what stuff is worth, what the mechanics of a dungeon is or where to locate things at times.
I play this game sporadically at best but one thing I have always done was if I was unsure or if I needed something I would ask for "help" be it in zone, guild chats or whatever. Tonight I simply asked for some Mud crab Chitin for a writ and I was more then wiling to pay for this. I was then accused of scamming cause I had asked before for something in zone and guild. Now true i am learning alchemy and enchanting as well as jewel crafting so I don't know all the mats and what they are worth and I had asked. All they had to say was hey man np how much you need and then tell me what it would cost and thats end of story.
No they didn't instead they proceed to bash me in open guild chat and talk to me like im some sort of criminal, finally i said ok fine whatever I pulled all my items from their store and since I had only been there a little over a week and had not really sold much I requested my donation of 8k back. Course they refused but I was not really expecting them to do it I was just being as obtuse as they were being at this point. Long story short they kick me and some dude pays me 16k which I did not ask for I only asked for my original 8k donation...My point here is simple..I am DONE with these big guilds who think they can control everything in a video game cause at the end of the day its a video game end of story.
I am on the ps4 na server and from now on if I need something I will simply get it.....IF I decide to sell something I will sell it at cost for little or no profit or goodness forbid I WILL PROBABLY SIMPLY GIVE IT AWAY...keep your trading guilds and your so called friendly social guilds I don't need them! It is my honest opinion that guilds as a whole are the main reason MMO's get such a lousy reputation.....oh and PS to the guild that kicked me tonight thanks for the extra cash I'm sure me and my 7 maxed characters will put it too good use by actually helping someone who deserves it. Have a nice day!!!!

FeedbackOnly

The problem is console players tend to be younger.

I am sorry that happened to you

Ragnork

I know we all do things our own way. So this is just me.
What I would do is rather then asking in chat visit a guild store, any guild store. You might need to buy a stack, but then you have spare for next time.

fiender66

OP, I too am no youngster and I too have been disappointed by guilds (plural!).

Never run in disasters like the one you describe, but I've seen more than one initially happy community ruined by the greed for power of a handful of fellows.

Now, no guilds for me. ESO offers such a variety of activities even for solo players.

shyanha

Gosh, I guess I've been super lucky to have joined 4 guilds that are full of great people (1 guild is just my husband and myself so it doesn't count, though I like to think we're great people). We get the occasional riff raff in the bigger guilds, but they're sorted quickly. All of the guilds have the same rule, "don't be a jerk." Pretty easy. Had you asked for help from any of the guilds I'm in, you would have received it from the social guilds, and the two trading would have said something like, "can someone please put some mudcrab chitin on the trader for x?" The only reasons for that would have been that both trading guilds have a no wtt / wts in guild chat (which everyone is told upfront), and to get the taxes on it since we don't charge dues - traders are expensive and every little bit helps us secure a trader the following week. More than likely, though, if it was just a couple, someone would have sent you a whisper and asked how many you needed. If it was just a few they'd likely even give them to you free.

Across all the guilds I'm in (NA PC), I can say not a one would have reamed you just for asking, and the trading guilds would have been polite and kind in reminding about no wtt / wts in chat. I'm an older gamer and business owner, so I think I understand where you're coming from. It's unusual, and irksome, to have such a severe and immature reaction to a simple question. We would give you pricing, do our best to help with mechanics (most of us aren't into dungeons but the ones who are would help where able), and help you find things.

Good luck to you out there, and I hope if you try guilds again you find a good fit that changes your mind. Thank you for your service!

Mesite

I think maybe people with manners need to be more confident. It's your game. Take what you're due, play the game with the confidence of a daedric prince like Meridia or Hircine, and ignore anyone who doesn't agree with you. Elder Scrolls Online is your game and everyone else is probably not real, just a clever NPC with advanced AI.

A lot of the quests in Elder Scrolls don't give you much choice in how you react. Guilds and interaction with other players are the real game.

Impose your good morals on other people, don't accept their distorted view of the world. I'm not sure what people say or do would affect how I play the game. I also never join guilds that demand a fee for trading. I've been in a few that have traders with no fee required but I don't trade much.

When I come across weird gamers I often think to myself, what would Sheogorath do?

markulrich1966

1.) you made 1 bad experience and generalize it for all guilds

2.) to strengthen your position, you bring personal references like being a veteran, but this is completely irrelevant for the issue

The game offers many guilds, use 2-3 non-trading guilds to get started as "social" guilds (helping each other with mats/quests), and 2-3 for trading only.
Don't forget there are real people running the guilds, so if someone overreacts, it can happen - they are human. Don't generalize it, move on, join another.

As a general rule of thumbs, don't put trading requests in larger trading guilds, they expect you to use the guildstore.as they must pay millions each week to secure a good trading location, so depend on the housecut.

FlopsyPrince

I have never had this problem, and I am a player very close to your own age. Find a different guild. Life is too short to worry about that.

I can be a pain at times, but other than having a couple of guilds disband under me I have not had major problems. I may get bumped from one because I don't sell enough (PC-EU), but I will donate and list some things until that happens, if it does.

======

Finding mubcrab chitin was almost impossible on the PS4. I kill them when I think about it on the PC now and don't have too much problem. (I ran out once, so I kill them more often to hopefully avoid that.

Guild rules may vary, but asking for 3 in guild chat doesn't seem like it would be a problem even in guilds that don't want sales in guild chat.

Zyva

I've been removed from several guilds since I began playing. I'm lucky to now have found people I get along with. I really think it comes down to your goals and how they fit with the guild, as well as if , to be honest, your sense of humor matches theirs.

The first I was removed because of laughing at a joke. Thats it, just laughing in discord. But the guild found the joke to be sexist (it was about a nereid in vvardenfell) during a world boss farm after Morrowind came out, and several of us got the boot. Later, I told the story to another guild and they all found the joke hilarious. So I learned, find your people.

Another one, I defended a person who skipped a trial and got booted (as in, I said they shouldnt get kicked for missing only one raid, there was irl issues with them), and was accused of challenging the leadership and off I go. I could understand that one a bit more, but also was upset at the time. Again, find the people who run things the way you enjoy.

I got kicked from another guild because I would not swap my pvp alliance. And another, because one member did not like me turning down their advances.

At the end of the day, I'm not sad any of that happened. When people dont want you around or value you, you absolutely should leave that environment and find one that makes you happy to play the game in. And they DO exist. I can not even count the amount of guilds I joined then left before I found ones I jive with and have now been in one particular one for two years.

As for trading guilds, I exempt them from this. You join one and pay your dues/make your sales and otherwise ignore them lol. They serve one purpose imo, thats to allow you to sell stuff. I join them based on location and longevity and if they have a guild hall with all the crafting stations.

Sidonius

Logically.. 16k, Seven maxed out chars.. and you haven't acquired mudcrab chitlin? As former military you'd understand if I said "sounds like a personal/admin problem to me".

Although yes, you would think your guildies would help you out.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

I'd suggest getting a PC.
The console crowd can be rather young like someone said.

Also a auction house would be good, hey. Our producer has a habit of creating tensions between players through their choices or non participation in some areas of the game. (Honest opinion/no bash)

Iselin

Guilds with weekly "dues" are a red flag. There are plenty of trading guilds with well placed store NPCs that don't have any weekly requirements other than just weekly login activity.

Also, don't confuse trading guilds with regular multipurpose friendly guilds.Some are fine but others are virtually asocial entities there only to access guild stores and sell stuff.

Just look carefully next time into the guild you're thinking of joining. There are more good ones than bad ones if you know what to look for and what to avoid.

Troodon80

While I do sympathise, I think it's a bit unfair to attribute all MMO's social woes specifically to guilds. I've been in a number of guilds which are rife with drama and others which serve their purpose fantastically, be that trading, raiding, questing, fishing, or simply socialising.

Guilds are not the reason why these social issues come up, people are. Guilds are obviously like any real life meeting place and people can have different goals. Not only that, but you might not get along with them. Whether that's a stamp collectors' meet-up, music club, book club, D&D group, or... a guild in a video game, there might be one person you simply don't get along well with.

In that example, you have two basic choices to make:

1. Don't associate with people. Ever. Understanding, of course, that this is just a video game, compare how this would work in real life?
2. Try to get along as best you can toward a common goal; bearing in mind that not everyone will have your goals in mind at all times. Everyone is playing for their own reasons. Whether that's mudcrab chitin or someone speed running a dungeon and leaving you in the dust.

If you don't like what's happening in this or that guild, you can try to join a different one and see if they have personalities that better match your own.

So far as your Mudcrab Chitin goes, I sympathise, I was once accused of being a scammer in zone by someone who was relatively new and obviously had no idea what the prices were for materials, so, noting that they were under 200 CP, I was going to sell them purple jewellery crafting materials (Zircon Plating) for 15k per unit which they had messaged me for, bearing in mind that right now with current inflation they're around 66k~70k per unit on PC-EU. At the time, about a year ago, they were around 25k. So they could have bought them from me and sold them for a tidy profit. Plus, I didn't have to reply to them at all.

However, upon realising how expensive they were, they called me a scammer and blocked me. They could have bought them from the nearby guild traders (in Vivec City) right where we were standing, but they chose to message me -- and maybe others -- instead. So it really makes you wonder who the real scammer was in that scenario. Something to note: this person wasn't part of any guild I was in. It was a random whisper from a low level player who seeminly just wanted free stuff.

Some people are just clueless. Such pettiness from another player isn't worth your time.

A final note, though. Playing without addons on console obviously cannot be compared to playing with addons on PC. Which isn't to say PC is better. If you're unsure about the price of something, have a look around some of the major hub areas, such as Deshaan, Stormhaven, Vivec, and Craglorn. Suggest that you're willing to buy for a price that's similar to what the average is you're seeing.

Mesite

People don't always realise you can type the details of the item you are trying to sell directly into the TTC website to get a price- you don't need an add-on to use Tamriel Trade Centre

Troodon80

Mesite wrote: »

People don't always realise you can type the details of the item you are trying to sell directly into the TTC website to get a price- you don't need an add-on to use Tamriel Trade Centre

That works for PC. Not so for Playstation (and the original poster specifically said PS4).

zaria

Iselin wrote: »

Guilds with weekly "dues" are a red flag. There are plenty of trading guilds with well placed store NPCs that don't have any weekly requirements other than just weekly login activity.

Also, don't confuse trading guilds with regular multipurpose friendly guilds.Some are fine but others are virtually asocial entities there only to access guild stores and sell stuff.

Just look carefully next time into the guild you're thinking of joining. There are more good ones than bad ones if you know what to look for and what to avoid.

Dues are much more common on console than PC as they don't have the tools for getting sales data from members.

Diminish

demonssnightfireb14_ESO wrote: »

Hello:
Once again guilds have left me with a bad taste in my mouth and have soured me on even playing this game as a mmo and simply doing solo quests and content, I am a 60 yr old veteran and family man. I have a 33 yr old autistic son who has 2 master's degrees and teaches middle school science. I am a supervisor for a very well known company and have been for over 7 yrs. My game time is my relaxation time and no I don't always know what stuff is worth, what the mechanics of a dungeon is or where to locate things at times.
I play this game sporadically at best but one thing I have always done was if I was unsure or if I needed something I would ask for "help" be it in zone, guild chats or whatever. Tonight I simply asked for some Mud crab Chitin for a writ and I was more then wiling to pay for this. I was then accused of scamming cause I had asked before for something in zone and guild. Now true i am learning alchemy and enchanting as well as jewel crafting so I don't know all the mats and what they are worth and I had asked. All they had to say was hey man np how much you need and then tell me what it would cost and thats end of story.
No they didn't instead they proceed to bash me in open guild chat and talk to me like im some sort of criminal, finally i said ok fine whatever I pulled all my items from their store and since I had only been there a little over a week and had not really sold much I requested my donation of 8k back. Course they refused but I was not really expecting them to do it I was just being as obtuse as they were being at this point. Long story short they kick me and some dude pays me 16k which I did not ask for I only asked for my original 8k donation...My point here is simple..I am DONE with these big guilds who think they can control everything in a video game cause at the end of the day its a video game end of story.
I am on the ps4 na server and from now on if I need something I will simply get it.....IF I decide to sell something I will sell it at cost for little or no profit or goodness forbid I WILL PROBABLY SIMPLY GIVE IT AWAY...keep your trading guilds and your so called friendly social guilds I don't need them! It is my honest opinion that guilds as a whole are the main reason MMO's get such a lousy reputation.....oh and PS to the guild that kicked me tonight thanks for the extra cash I'm sure me and my 7 maxed characters will put it too good use by actually helping someone who deserves it. Have a nice day!!!!

I switched to PC, and have many WELL STOCKED PSNA characters, full bank, and full guild bank. If you still need anything on that platform feel free to send me a message here in the forums; I have no issue helping you out with what you need

SilverBride

demonssnightfireb14_ESO wrote: »

...one thing I have always done was if I was unsure or if I needed something I would ask for "help" be it in zone, guild chats or whatever. Tonight I simply asked for some Mud crab Chitin for a writ and I was more then wiling to pay for this. I was then accused of scamming cause I had asked before for something in zone and guild. Now true i am learning alchemy and enchanting as well as jewel crafting so I don't know all the mats and what they are worth and I had asked. All they had to say was hey man np how much you need and then tell me what it would cost and thats end of story.

I can see where the misunderstanding occurred.

The way we word things can change the way we are perceived. For example, saying "Looking to buy mudcrab chitin" comes across very differently than "I need some mudcrab chitin". Also being asked for things multiple times can be frustrating for other members. Always check the guild store for items already up for sale before asking others.

When you need chitin, go to any stream and there are mudcrabs hanging around the shores. It doesn't take long to get enough for the daily writs. I've had to do that myself a few times.

Mesite

Troodon80 wrote: »

Mesite wrote: »

People don't always realise you can type the details of the item you are trying to sell directly into the TTC website to get a price- you don't need an add-on to use Tamriel Trade Centre

That works for PC. Not so for Playstation (and the original poster specifically said PS4).

I checked the Tamriel Trade Centre website before I posted this and there is an option for PlayStation

Now that you mentioned it I tried that option out and the last listings are from a year ago by the ghost 2019. If the PlayStation option doesn't work then they should remove it from the website so I don't see it and assume it works.

Amottica

markulrich1966 wrote: »

1.) you made 1 bad experience and generalize it for all guilds

2.) to strengthen your position, you bring personal references like being a veteran, but this is completely irrelevant for the issue

The game offers many guilds, use 2-3 non-trading guilds to get started as "social" guilds (helping each other with mats/quests), and 2-3 for trading only.
Don't forget there are real people running the guilds, so if someone overreacts, it can happen - they are human. Don't generalize it, move on, join another.

As a general rule of thumbs, don't put trading requests in larger trading guilds, they expect you to use the guildstore.as they must pay millions each week to secure a good trading location, so depend on the housecut.

I agree with this comment. No one should expect a guild they happen to find will be the perfect match. I have kissed many frogs to find a good guild that meets my needs. Along the way, I have seen guilds that had a different focus than mine as well as guilds with lame leadership that did nothing to foster anything with or among the membership.

I would also add that to get the most out of a guild the member has to step up to participate and even be part of the solution in developing the activities instead of always waiting for someone else. That principle is why I often end up with a group of people to run with as I take the time to form a dungeon or raid group. At the very least a member needs to find out what activities the guild does and how to participate if they expect to get anything out of being part of the guild.

deleted220614-000183

Iselin wrote: »

Guilds with weekly "dues" are a red flag. There are plenty of trading guilds with well placed store NPCs that don't have any weekly requirements ...

I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing.
I'm playing on PC EU and the trading guilding is deadly and not forgiving competition.

I'm member of two from three trading guilds which are able to sell 1Billion golds per week on regulalar basis.
Even members around 300th position are selling 1million golds per week so we are perfectly fine with the weekly quota 500k
as the guild has the best spot in the game, best guildhouse in the game and we don't worry that somebody else dares to outbid us for too long as this is declaratrion of guildwar and they can't win against us.

Why ? Because guilds without strong players and owners are not able to pay 100millions golds bills every week for hired NPC.
There was one crisis, when folks were buying cheapo crowns in Latin America, possibly laudering money from stolen credit cards and selling crownstore items for PC EU players but thankfully these people were mostly banned and competition is more or less clear now.

So the guy who laments about his 8k donation and asking for mudcrab chitin in guildchat is absolutely unaware what is going on.
I was running small trading guild myself and wasted 30millions golds on that just in couple of months, not speaking about wasted time so I know what I'm talking about.

As the in-game economy is really NOT FORGIVING and people running top trading guilds are really dedicated to their guilds and they are wasting a lot of time and real currency (we are talking about USD 150 every week which must be covered by ingame donations or by guild owners) they really CAN'T allow a single underperforming slot in the trading guild with hired NPC in some better location then outlaw refuge or in the middle of nowhere .

It is simply not possible , at least on PC platform.

Iselin

trpajzla wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Guilds with weekly "dues" are a red flag. There are plenty of trading guilds with well placed store NPCs that don't have any weekly requirements ...

I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing.
I'm playing on PC EU and the trading guilding is deadly and not forgiving competition.

I'm member of two from three trading guilds which are able to sell 1Billion golds per week on regulalar basis.
Even members around 300th position are selling 1million golds per week so we are perfectly fine with the weekly quota 500k
as the guild has the best spot in the game, best guildhouse in the game and we don't worry that somebody else dares to outbid us for too long as this is declaratrion of guildwar and they can't win against us.

Why ? Because guilds without strong players and owners are not able to pay 100millions golds bills every week for hired NPC.
There was one crisis, when folks were buying cheapo crowns in Latin America, possibly laudering money from stolen credit cards and selling crownstore items for PC EU players but thankfully these people were mostly banned and competition is more or less clear now.

So the guy who laments about his 8k donation and asking for mudcrab chitin in guildchat is absolutely unaware what is going on.
I was running small trading guild myself and wasted 30millions golds on that just in couple of months, not speaking about wasted time so I know what I'm talking about.

As the in-game economy is really NOT FORGIVING and people running top trading guilds are really dedicated to their guilds and they are wasting a lot of time and real currency (we are talking about USD 150 every week which must be covered by ingame donations or by guild owners) they really CAN'T allow a single underperforming slot in the trading guild with hired NPC in some better location then outlaw refuge or in the middle of nowhere .

It is simply not possible , at least on PC platform.

You're definitely right about one thing: neither the OP nor I are talking about your type of "best in server - no one dares bid against us" uber trade guild where players whose main game is the economy congregate.

I'm in 2 trade guilds on PC NA that are part of a 5 sister trading guild conglomerate where all my sales needs are met that has neither sales minimum nor dues requirements. We also have a fully stocked guild hall with everything you could possibly want in one.

Didgerion

It might happen when you put 500 players together in the same room.

Tornaad

As a person who believes that games should be fun and nothing like a job, I recognize that my beliefs do not align with everyone else's so I just make sure to look for signs that a guild might be one to take things too seriously before I consider joining.

Nightowl_74

That's terrible. I'm on the PS4 and I was out getting mudcrab chitin last night because it's one of only two or three items my hirelings don't bring me that the writs sometimes require. I remember having to get a bunch of spider eggs too, at some point, but that may have been during an event.

For me the dues, in combination with getting kicked for inactivity, make trading guilds a no-go. I join social guilds and usually do get kicked from those eventually because I play sporadically, but later on I join another. So far none have been "the one" that I don't want to lose, but I also haven't had any negative interactions.

Nestor

I am old too and all that goes with it.

1. Simple answer, ask in Guild chat first, then after a few minutes, zone.
2. Or, be in up to 5 guilds
3. Or, quit the one bad guild and join a different one.

xaraan

Hey OP and fellow older person (though you have about a decade on me still), I totally get where you are coming from.

I've kind of settled into my own thing with this game by now. For me, I treat a trading guild like a job - I do what I need to do, whether it's sell X amount, pay X amount, whatever and if I sell even more, great; but I usually don't bother with a lot of the other extra curricular stuff and I never turn on guild chat for most of those huge guilds. One, they are all essentially competing with you for selling anyway and two, the guild, just like a job, will replace you as soon as you're gone and won't think about you again. It's just the nature of the beast with the size and money they put out for bids that they often function as they do. Not to mention, just like a hardcore trials or pvp guild, you have players in those big trade guilds where the economy/trade is the end game for them and are very hardcore about it (and will often overly worry about scams b/c they've seen more of that than the average player). So when I join a big trade guild I just treat it as a place to sell my stuff and look to other guilds for help with anything else, be it questing, crafting, etc and just avoid them socially. Though I will say I've seen some borderline big guilds, like not the biggest, but still full and usually with a trade spot, even if it's not the best, that aren't like this and can be multi-faceted. It's just rare.

I'd recommend trying a different trade guild and treat it as such and find another guild that is more social and smaller - those usually help each other out more.

Mostly I just wanted to comment b/c you mentioned your son. As someone that raised a special needs son as well, though mine is still in college, I just have to say: isn't it awesome when you can look back and how well they've done after all you, your family, and your son had to go through as he grew up and all the additional challenges they face. To not only over come them, but excel. That's an awesome feeling. That's all. It just made me happy to read that.

FlopsyPrince

Iselin wrote: »

Guilds with weekly "dues" are a red flag. There are plenty of trading guilds with well placed store NPCs that don't have any weekly requirements other than just weekly login activity.

Also, don't confuse trading guilds with regular multipurpose friendly guilds.Some are fine but others are virtually asocial entities there only to access guild stores and sell stuff.

Just look carefully next time into the guild you're thinking of joining. There are more good ones than bad ones if you know what to look for and what to avoid.

I have not found that to be true (in general at least) on the PC or PS4.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

trpajzla wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Guilds with weekly "dues" are a red flag. There are plenty of trading guilds with well placed store NPCs that don't have any weekly requirements ...

I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing.
I'm playing on PC EU and the trading guilding is deadly and not forgiving competition.

I'm member of two from three trading guilds which are able to sell 1Billion golds per week on regulalar basis.
Even members around 300th position are selling 1million golds per week so we are perfectly fine with the weekly quota 500k
as the guild has the best spot in the game, best guildhouse in the game and we don't worry that somebody else dares to outbid us for too long as this is declaratrion of guildwar and they can't win against us.

Why ? Because guilds without strong players and owners are not able to pay 100millions golds bills every week for hired NPC.
There was one crisis, when folks were buying cheapo crowns in Latin America, possibly laudering money from stolen credit cards and selling crownstore items for PC EU players but thankfully these people were mostly banned and competition is more or less clear now.

So the guy who laments about his 8k donation and asking for mudcrab chitin in guildchat is absolutely unaware what is going on.
I was running small trading guild myself and wasted 30millions golds on that just in couple of months, not speaking about wasted time so I know what I'm talking about.

As the in-game economy is really NOT FORGIVING and people running top trading guilds are really dedicated to their guilds and they are wasting a lot of time and real currency (we are talking about USD 150 every week which must be covered by ingame donations or by guild owners) they really CAN'T allow a single underperforming slot in the trading guild with hired NPC in some better location then outlaw refuge or in the middle of nowhere .

It is simply not possible , at least on PC platform.

Not as much on other platform
Console mosltly work with fees/week as there is no addon

On psna a big mournhold ask for 20k/week. Some have auction or raffles on tof of that

My social guild tried to have a merchant for a few month last year. Once or twice we managed to get a spot in vivec for about 14 million

Other proof of vastly different economy: crown seller still sell crown at 100g/crown on psn/na vs the 400/500 i tend to see on the forum

Tenthirty2

Sorry that happened to you OP

Being an introvert the only thing I've used my guilds for is trading, with little to no human interaction required.
We each make gold, so it works, the few interactions I've had were positive but I haven't used discord guild chat yet.

I've been thinking about checking out the "social" side of one of them bcuz they have a trials night and I've yet to try a single trial. So it might be fun. But then I think about it and the interaction sounds exhausting, even if it's a fun experience it's still draining

Djennku

OP, quite often you'll find players who are just [snip], and the only thing to do is cut them out and try to find a group that's made up of more mature people.

I've been in and out of so many guilds throughout my time in the game before finding a group/guild of people I enjoy being around and who are understanding and not into causing problems. I felt like giving up many times because I had felt that every guild was going to be the same.

I wish you the best in finding that guild(s) that work for you if you continue to look for the ones who you enjoy playing with.

PS. For mudcrab chitin, there's this fantastic place in Grahtwood off of the Haven wayshrine on a beach if you go towards the coast and north that's filled with mud crabs that you can farm for the stuff if you wanted a big pile of the item. Wanted to let you know in case you were interested. ^^

[edited for profanity bypass]