Sorcerer spammable

Wellsley

Crystal Weapon can remain a stamina skill but needs to change to be a finisher like Crystal Fragments.

You have to create a new spammable that will give a real identity to the sorcerer, and for me Lightning Splash is the perfect skill for that.
I've played this class before, magicka and stamina, and never used this skill. I don't think many players use it too, except maybe a few in PvE ? Maybe I'm wrong and another skill should be changed.

How about Lightning Disc or something similar ? A new spammable with a lightning projectile (disc), like in here :




I know it's a different game but it's a good overview and of course there are other ideas.

Wellsley

Any other suggestions ?

Dracane

I find it funny how Stormcaller was always made out to be Sorc's damage line, even though nothing in there deals damage. All Sorcs use Daedric Summoning and some Dark Magic for damage. Stormcalling is only utility and overcooked noodle damage.

A lightning disc is fine I guess, I would just like Mage's Fury to become a spammable; I want to rain lightning on my foes. At least the never used Mage's Wrath could be changed as such. It seems though Zenimax is hell bent on making Crystal Shard in its various forms our spammable.

I never accepted Fragments as a spammable and I never will. Crystal weapons as it is now, still leaves room for another spammable, so it doesn't fullfill the role of a full spammable in my eyes. (Because you can easily combine it with a 2nd spammable now) So having another in class one wouldn't be out of place.

Wellsley

Dracane wrote: »

I find it funny how Stormcaller was always made out to be Sorc's damage line, even though nothing in there deals damage. All Sorcs use Daedric Summoning and some Dark Magic for damage. Stormcalling is only utility and overcooked noodle damage.

A lightning disc is fine I guess, I would just like Mage's Fury to become a spammable; I want to rain lightning on my foes. At least the never used Mage's Wrath could be changed as such. It seems though Zenimax is hell bent on making Crystal Shard in its various forms our spammable.

I never accepted Fragments as a spammable and I never will. Crystal weapons as it is now, still leaves room for another spammable, so it doesn't fullfill the role of a full spammable in my eyes. (Because you can easily combine it with a 2nd spammable now) So having another in class one wouldn't be out of place.

Yes Mage's Fury can be the new spammable that I propose, instead of Lightning Splash.
Lightning disc projectile could move from target to target (up to three players) and why not make a dot as a side effect.
They should have done this long ago instead of creating Crystal Weapon.

Goldtistic

I'd like to see some of the storm calling skills be revamped, yea. For the damage tree, it really only brings Crit Surge and Hurricane to the table, and maybe the execute. I'd say revamp a morph of the execute to a horizontal chain lightning bolt, and change a morph of lightning splash to be a throwable disc that stays on targets and does AoE dot that follows them.

jaws343

Mage's fury as a spammable would be great. Add some chance of splash damage to it as well. Turn the frag proc itself into an execute. Basically flip them.

Wellsley

If Mage's Fury becomes spammable, what do you think of my suggestion ?





Lightning disc projectile could move from target to target (up to three players) and why not make a dot as a side effect.

Mesite

Give the little scamp some sort of physical attack like a werewolf when it jumps on enemies. Meanwhile the twilight matriarch sinks its teeth into enemies like a vampire. I prefer my pets to do all the fighting. These monsters were scary in previous TES games. Make them scary again, more like the aliens in Alien. Make people say Oh no it's a sorcerer! and run the other way.

acastanza_ESO

Dracane wrote: »

A lightning disc is fine I guess, I would just like Mage's Fury to become a spammable; I want to rain lightning on my foes. At least the never used Mage's Wrath could be changed as such.

Mage's Wrath frequently makes it onto the bar in PVE content if you're running Frag Spam. It's great for execute phase. Also, the skill is very well used and loved (... by us, not so much by enemies) in PVP. Sorcs are the only(?) class with a ranged execute and in big PVP fights it practically is used as a spammable. It's one of the few things that can actually end someone trying to fall back to heal.

That said, I do not like Crystal Frags in their current implementation. Either the cast time has to go, the speed of the projectile needs to be dramatically increased so it doesn't miss nearly as much, or it needs a damage buff to make it worthwhile. Crystal Weapon is just SO MUCH better than Frags now that Frags need significant help to keep up.

Edit: I stand corrected. The Templar and Nightblade Ranged Executes seem to be quite a bit better. *Especially* the Templar one.

Wellsley

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

A lightning disc is fine I guess, I would just like Mage's Fury to become a spammable; I want to rain lightning on my foes. At least the never used Mage's Wrath could be changed as such.

Mage's Wrath frequently makes it onto the bar in PVE content if you're running Frag Spam. It's great for execute phase. Also, the skill is very well used and loved (... by us, not so much by enemies) in PVP. Sorcs are the only(?) class with a ranged execute and in big PVP fights it practically is used as a spammable. It's one of the few things that can actually end someone trying to fall back to heal.

So for a new spammable you prefer Lightning Splash rather than Mage's Fury ?

jaws343

Wellsley wrote: »

If Mage's Fury becomes spammable, what do you think of my suggestion ?





Lightning disc projectile could move from target to target (up to three players) and why not make a dot as a side effect.

Not really necessary. Current visuals and function works fine. The only adjustment needed would be to switch the damage and remove the execute scaling. Maybe adjust cost. No need to waste effort in unnecessary visuals or entirely change the mechanics of the skill.

Also, to your lightning splash comments. That skill is functionally fine as is. Sorcs need a ground based aoe skill. But, it definitely needs adjustment as it is not as effective as orbs. Mostly due to the stationary nature of the skill. What they could do is give it the same treatment as boneyard and allow sorcs to proc their own synergy off the skill. Would make up for it being locked into one spot on cast.

Tannus15

Lightning splash is probably the worst AOE in the game. It's ground targeted, which makes it clunky to use, it does bad damage and requires someone to use the synergy.
Lightning flood only brings it's damage to on par with other class aoe dps, liquid lightning is just terrible.

Assuming someone uses the synergy lightning flood still does less damage than Eruption, winters revenge, and Twisting path. If not then it's on par with Blazing spear, which has better passives. Technically it's more damage per tick than Avid Boneyard, unless there is a corpse to consume and if the necro grabs their own synergy it leaves Flood in the dust.

Liquid lightning on the other hand is just less dps than everything. It does less damage than boneyard if there are no corpses and no one uses the synergy and it's radius is tiny at 4m.

Liquid lightning could be removed from the game and literally no one would care.

As for "shock sorc" it's a meme. The problem isn't with sorcs however, it's that lightning staff is so terrible for PvE that no one should use them. Unless lightning staff gets reworked shock sorcs aren't even worth looking at.

RemoryAzure

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Sorcs are the only(?) class with a ranged execute

nightblade - impale, 28m
templar - radiant destruction & morphs, 28m

regarding the whole topic - just make mage's fury & morphs a sorc's spammable. instead of doing X dmg and +3X when below 20% hp, just make it 2x +2x when below 25%. it will still be worse than other spammables by 20% in terms of damage but with built-in execute.

or, there is another topic about reworking destro staves to make force pulse a single element damage which is determined by the staff & also removing fire staff 10% damage and instead giving all staves bonuses similar to 2h weapons, making fire staff raw damage focused one, lightning is pen-focused and ice crit-focused since it is already have built-in brittle debuff. i think that guy's idea is better.

acastanza_ESO

RemoryAzure wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Sorcs are the only(?) class with a ranged execute

nightblade - impale, 28m
templar - radiant destruction & morphs, 28m

Wow, ok, I stand corrected. I forgot about those skills. In comparison Mage's Wrath seems pretty lackluster. Admittedly, it always pops for the full damage rather than scaling like either of those, but even then it isn't all that much more damage than the base value for Radiant Destruction. Definitely seems to need more of a buff than the pittance of a cost reduction that's coming in the next patch (for Endless Fury, nothing for Mage's Wrath). At least give it some additional scaling with missing health like those other two skills, or extend the duration that it can stick on a target before popping!

Hescrow

I created a post months ago for rework crystal weapon as it is difficult to use in PvP for melee weapons. Bow and staff is ok, but I am a warrior not a ranger or caster except with overload of course badass skill!

Lightning weapon ranged skill would be great and I agree with your animations. Maybe not a disc but a large bow horizontal really fast until 28m.

Wellsley

jaws343 wrote: »

Wellsley wrote: »

If Mage's Fury becomes spammable, what do you think of my suggestion ?





Lightning disc projectile could move from target to target (up to three players) and why not make a dot as a side effect.

Not really necessary. Current visuals and function works fine. The only adjustment needed would be to switch the damage and remove the execute scaling. Maybe adjust cost. No need to waste effort in unnecessary visuals or entirely change the mechanics of the skill.

Also, to your lightning splash comments. That skill is functionally fine as is. Sorcs need a ground based aoe skill. But, it definitely needs adjustment as it is not as effective as orbs. Mostly due to the stationary nature of the skill. What they could do is give it the same treatment as boneyard and allow sorcs to proc their own synergy off the skill. Would make up for it being locked into one spot on cast.

I do not agree with you. Crystal Weapon's animation is bad, worse than Dive or Flame Skull, and exactly the same as Elemental Weapon. Also, I see more players using Elemental Weapon than Crystal Weapon. Just because a skill looks good doesn't mean the animation isn't bad. On the other hand I prefer new spammable with Lightning Splash rather than Crystal Weapon.

For me the animation of a skill is very important. It contributes a lot to the identity of a class, like Lava Whip or Puncturing Strikes. Of course there are also the mechanics, like the Necromancer which I find very interesting but Flame Skull is so bad so I prefer to play another class. And Dizziying and Eviscerate, no thanks, I find it a shame to use skills like that because another one is bad.

Wellsley

Tannus15 wrote: »

Lightning splash is probably the worst AOE in the game. It's ground targeted, which makes it clunky to use, it does bad damage and requires someone to use the synergy.
Lightning flood only brings it's damage to on par with other class aoe dps, liquid lightning is just terrible.

Assuming someone uses the synergy lightning flood still does less damage than Eruption, winters revenge, and Twisting path. If not then it's on par with Blazing spear, which has better passives. Technically it's more damage per tick than Avid Boneyard, unless there is a corpse to consume and if the necro grabs their own synergy it leaves Flood in the dust.

Liquid lightning on the other hand is just less dps than everything. It does less damage than boneyard if there are no corpses and no one uses the synergy and it's radius is tiny at 4m.

Liquid lightning could be removed from the game and literally no one would care.

As for "shock sorc" it's a meme. The problem isn't with sorcs however, it's that lightning staff is so terrible for PvE that no one should use them. Unless lightning staff gets reworked shock sorcs aren't even worth looking at.

This is a good summary of Lightning Splash. That's why I prefer to replace it with my lightning disk suggestion.

It's not the only skill that is useless and very little used by players, there are others and after years I can't understand why they still exist. Eso lacks diversity, even more so with skills like that.

Wellsley

Hescrow wrote: »

I created a post months ago for rework crystal weapon as it is difficult to use in PvP for melee weapons. Bow and staff is ok, but I am a warrior not a ranger or caster except with overload of course badass skill!

Lightning weapon ranged skill would be great and I agree with your animations. Maybe not a disc but a large bow horizontal really fast until 28m.

For me, with a disc of lightning (like in the gif) we stay in the theme of the Sorcerer. A bow reminds me more of a Nightblade.

jaws343

Wellsley wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Wellsley wrote: »

If Mage's Fury becomes spammable, what do you think of my suggestion ?





Lightning disc projectile could move from target to target (up to three players) and why not make a dot as a side effect.

Not really necessary. Current visuals and function works fine. The only adjustment needed would be to switch the damage and remove the execute scaling. Maybe adjust cost. No need to waste effort in unnecessary visuals or entirely change the mechanics of the skill.

Also, to your lightning splash comments. That skill is functionally fine as is. Sorcs need a ground based aoe skill. But, it definitely needs adjustment as it is not as effective as orbs. Mostly due to the stationary nature of the skill. What they could do is give it the same treatment as boneyard and allow sorcs to proc their own synergy off the skill. Would make up for it being locked into one spot on cast.

I do not agree with you. Crystal Weapon's animation is bad, worse than Dive or Flame Skull, and exactly the same as Elemental Weapon. Also, I see more players using Elemental Weapon than Crystal Weapon. Just because a skill looks good doesn't mean the animation isn't bad. On the other hand I prefer new spammable with Lightning Splash rather than Crystal Weapon.

For me the animation of a skill is very important. It contributes a lot to the identity of a class, like Lava Whip or Puncturing Strikes. Of course there are also the mechanics, like the Necromancer which I find very interesting but Flame Skull is so bad so I prefer to play another class. And Dizziying and Eviscerate, no thanks, I find it a shame to use skills like that because another one is bad.

My animation is fine comment was in regards to Mages Wrath. My whole comment was about making Mages Wrath the spammable and turning Frags proc into the execute.

I don't think Lightning splash should be changed in function at all. And should instead be adjusted to be more inline with the effectiveness of similar AOEs. Not made into a spammable.

Mages Wrath already has a decent animation and can already function as an ineffective spammable. All that needs to be done is changed the damage scaling from execute and make it more in line with spammable damage. It's an effective change that is easy to implement without inventing new animations and completing ruining a necessary skill (no matter how poor Splash is at the moment, ground based AOE is still a necessary skill).

WitchyWarrior

Mesite wrote: »

Give the little scamp some sort of physical attack like a werewolf when it jumps on enemies. Meanwhile the twilight matriarch sinks its teeth into enemies like a vampire. I prefer my pets to do all the fighting. These monsters were scary in previous TES games. Make them scary again, more like the aliens in Alien. Make people say Oh no it's a sorcerer! and run the other way.

But they usually run away to the forums to make "Nerf Sorc" threads already, there would just be way more

Mr_Stach

I think some people have Nerf X Templates so they just fill in X with whatever killed them that day.

Wellsley

jaws343 wrote: »

Wellsley wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Wellsley wrote: »

If Mage's Fury becomes spammable, what do you think of my suggestion ?





Lightning disc projectile could move from target to target (up to three players) and why not make a dot as a side effect.

Not really necessary. Current visuals and function works fine. The only adjustment needed would be to switch the damage and remove the execute scaling. Maybe adjust cost. No need to waste effort in unnecessary visuals or entirely change the mechanics of the skill.

Also, to your lightning splash comments. That skill is functionally fine as is. Sorcs need a ground based aoe skill. But, it definitely needs adjustment as it is not as effective as orbs. Mostly due to the stationary nature of the skill. What they could do is give it the same treatment as boneyard and allow sorcs to proc their own synergy off the skill. Would make up for it being locked into one spot on cast.

I do not agree with you. Crystal Weapon's animation is bad, worse than Dive or Flame Skull, and exactly the same as Elemental Weapon. Also, I see more players using Elemental Weapon than Crystal Weapon. Just because a skill looks good doesn't mean the animation isn't bad. On the other hand I prefer new spammable with Lightning Splash rather than Crystal Weapon.

For me the animation of a skill is very important. It contributes a lot to the identity of a class, like Lava Whip or Puncturing Strikes. Of course there are also the mechanics, like the Necromancer which I find very interesting but Flame Skull is so bad so I prefer to play another class. And Dizziying and Eviscerate, no thanks, I find it a shame to use skills like that because another one is bad.

My animation is fine comment was in regards to Mages Wrath. My whole comment was about making Mages Wrath the spammable and turning Frags proc into the execute.

I don't think Lightning splash should be changed in function at all. And should instead be adjusted to be more inline with the effectiveness of similar AOEs. Not made into a spammable.

Mages Wrath already has a decent animation and can already function as an ineffective spammable. All that needs to be done is changed the damage scaling from execute and make it more in line with spammable damage. It's an effective change that is easy to implement without inventing new animations and completing ruining a necessary skill (no matter how poor Splash is at the moment, ground based AOE is still a necessary skill).

Mages' Wrath is fine as it is, I don't want to make it spammable. Plus the animation isn't good enough for that.

I also like Crystal Fragment. Crystal Weapon on the other hand... I prefer to use Crushing Weapon, which I don't like either.

If Lightning Splash becomes more powerful, I don't know if many players will use it. I'm talking about magicka players considering how they use magsorc currently.

There are also other not very popular skills that could become an aoe like Eruption, or a new spammable.

Wellsley

Wellsley wrote: »

If Lightning Splash becomes more powerful, I don't know if many players will use it. I'm talking about magicka players considering how they use magsorc currently.

They can do an aoe in another skill line. Because I don't see a lightning disc anywhere other than in Storm Calling.

Glantir

Dracane wrote: »

I find it funny how Stormcaller was always made out to be Sorc's damage line, even though nothing in there deals damage. All Sorcs use Daedric Summoning and some Dark Magic for damage. Stormcalling is only utility and overcooked noodle damage.

Also funny is the small usefull toolkit of the sorc

Cfrag spam is not so bad, but in some situation risky to play. And its still interruptable.

Mages Wrath/Endless Fury have the problem that the execute triggers only at 20% and dont scale up in dmg like Temp/NB executes

Turning Liquid Lightning to a spamable would be nice, or maybe the Mines?
(all PvE perspective)

Wellsley

Glantir wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I find it funny how Stormcaller was always made out to be Sorc's damage line, even though nothing in there deals damage. All Sorcs use Daedric Summoning and some Dark Magic for damage. Stormcalling is only utility and overcooked noodle damage.

Also funny is the small usefull toolkit of the sorc

Cfrag spam is not so bad, but in some situation risky to play. And its still interruptable.

Mages Wrath/Endless Fury have the problem that the execute triggers only at 20% and dont scale up in dmg like Temp/NB executes

Turning Liquid Lightning to a spamable would be nice, or maybe the Mines?
(all PvE perspective)

It would give a real identity to the Sorcerer. Because Crystal Weapon... It's the same skill as Crushing Weapon, and I see more players using it.

acastanza_ESO

You can't even stack crystal weapon with crushing weapon anymore they specifically nerfed one cool damage burst that Sorc could get but no never nerf other classes insane burst damage.

It's insane how much the current combat designer hates Sorcs (and Wardens TBH). I really wish they'd find someone else to run combat design, someone who actually cares about balance.

jaws343

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

You can't even stack crystal weapon with crushing weapon anymore they specifically nerfed one cool damage burst that Sorc could get but no never nerf other classes insane burst damage.

It's insane how much the current combat designer hates Sorcs. I really with they'd find someone else to run combat design, someone who actually cares about balance.

That was rightfully nerfed though. And it's not like any other class could stack something similarly with crushing weapon either. They nerfed the way two identical skills in a class skill line and a guild skill line interacted. It was hardly a sorc nerf, and it was only a nerf to gank builds in PVP anyways.

acastanza_ESO

Other classes can put up burst without being tied to RNG, Sorcs are dependent on getting Crystal Frags to proc to get anything resembling halfway decent damage (emphasis on halfway). They finally gave us something good wasn't tied to RNG (if by accident). You're right that it was a crazy gank stack but that's ZOS's fault for stealing a skill morph from Sorcs to give to everyone in the first place.

They should have done something different with Infused weapon to begin with, but since that ship's sailed Crystal weapon should have been completely reworked instead. At least it's a good morph now (if borderline too expensive to MagSorc to make use of).

jaws343

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Other classes can put up burst without being tied to RNG, Sorcs are dependent on getting Crystal Frags to proc to get anything resembling halfway decent damage (emphasis on halfway). They finally gave us something good wasn't tied to RNG (if by accident). You're right that it was a crazy gank stack but that's ZOS's fault for stealing a skill morph from Sorcs to give to everyone in the first place.

But that combo that was nerfed was a stam sorc thing, and not a single stam sorc was ever using crystal frags before nor have they used it since. So that frag proc was only ever a mag sorc thing, and the crystal weapon spammable has only gotten stronger based on the upcoming patch changes. Being able to fire two spammable off from a gank was never going to be a good thing and it was never going to last. And it was a combo that was only successful in a gank stack. It's not like anyone was running around double casting two spammables to get light attack combos off during normal combat, they'd never land a thing that way, and more often than not, they'd just be wasting cast times to prep each attack and dying.

Wellsley

jaws343 wrote: »

Wellsley wrote: »

If Mage's Fury becomes spammable, what do you think of my suggestion ?





Lightning disc projectile could move from target to target (up to three players) and why not make a dot as a side effect.

Not really necessary. Current visuals and function works fine. The only adjustment needed would be to switch the damage and remove the execute scaling. Maybe adjust cost. No need to waste effort in unnecessary visuals or entirely change the mechanics of the skill.

Also, to your lightning splash comments. That skill is functionally fine as is. Sorcs need a ground based aoe skill. But, it definitely needs adjustment as it is not as effective as orbs. Mostly due to the stationary nature of the skill. What they could do is give it the same treatment as boneyard and allow sorcs to proc their own synergy off the skill. Would make up for it being locked into one spot on cast.

Although I prefer Lightning Splash to become Lightning Disc, Mage's Fury can be too. That way, Lightning Splash can remain an aoe like Eruption. It's ok for me but if Mage's Fury's damage is adjusted to make it a spammable, might as well change the name and animation to make it lightning disc. It wouldn't take long and it would make a lot of players happy. It's only an animation but it's worth it.

jaws343

Wellsley wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Wellsley wrote: »

If Mage's Fury becomes spammable, what do you think of my suggestion ?





Lightning disc projectile could move from target to target (up to three players) and why not make a dot as a side effect.

Not really necessary. Current visuals and function works fine. The only adjustment needed would be to switch the damage and remove the execute scaling. Maybe adjust cost. No need to waste effort in unnecessary visuals or entirely change the mechanics of the skill.

Also, to your lightning splash comments. That skill is functionally fine as is. Sorcs need a ground based aoe skill. But, it definitely needs adjustment as it is not as effective as orbs. Mostly due to the stationary nature of the skill. What they could do is give it the same treatment as boneyard and allow sorcs to proc their own synergy off the skill. Would make up for it being locked into one spot on cast.

Although I prefer Lightning Splash to become Lightning Disc, Mage's Fury can be too. That way, Lightning Splash can remain an aoe like Eruption. It's ok for me but if Mage's Fury's damage is adjusted to make it a spammable, might as well change the name and animation to make it lightning disc. It wouldn't take long and it would make a lot of players happy. It's only an animation but it's worth it.

I am not sure why you are so hung up on this lightning disc idea. Beyond the fact that ZOS has said before that they are kind of limited on adding new animations to the game, what is the point of changing an already functional animation to make some sort of disc. Mage's Wrath already has everything a spammable needs, outside of a damage adjustment, and a lightning bolt dropping onto your enemy is far more logical, for lack of a better word, than some disc. What does a disc have to do with lightning. Chain lighting of some sort would be better than a disc.