RAVENWATCH PC NA - Time for Proc Sets to Return

Mega_Nova

With the lag improving due to the server upgrades I, among others, believe that it is time for the Non CP campaign to return to its roots of uniqueness allowing proc sets.

There are multiple reasons for this.

1. The current meta with no proc sets basically has everyone running a high defensive build using sets allowed such as pariah. Its a win all without any offensive sets allowed.

2. Facing larger numbers than your own can almost be near impossible without sets such as VD or some Monster Helms, it becomes one sided constantly if a faction just has more people. There is no counter play against numbers

3. With the unbalance of factions the campaign doesnt attract any new players wanting to get into pvp. We use to see an influx of newer players due to their low CP. With the lack of proc sets, and nothing to view outside of peoples forum posts or images, newer players tend not to waste their time gearing for the specific rules in this campaign.

Can we please have proc sets back into non cp? We have gone on long enough without and those of us who love the non cp gameplay are losing the ability to enjoy it when every patch we dont see the meta changes the CP campaigns enjoy.

Please agree or comment if you want this to happen. Lets hope this can change with the release of High Isle. Thanks. 😁

AdexiTheOneEyed

Agreed here, I've loved no-proc and I stayed in Ravenwatch because I was happy about no-proc. But with the way the state of the campaign is, we need procs back. Ravenwatch is dying, certain behaviors are hurrying that along. Sheer numbers don't really have much of a counter, and that every night isn't fun to play against.

As much as I've loved playing without proc sets, it's time to go back to proc. We want to be able to enjoy our chosen campaign.

acastanza_ESO

As emphatically no thank you as I can muster.

BrianEno

I completely disagree.
There are already two campaigns with proc sets enabled, play on these campaigns if it's the playstyle you're looking for.
If defensive sets are the problem, disable all procs and leave only stat sets. No problem.

QuintusVaLari

I'd love to see this.

1) more build diversity - playing with the same 3 optimal builds is boring.
2) more options for combating population imbalances
3) maybe (i think likely) more interest in an already dying campaign
4) more new player interest - I hear with some frequency when newer players are sad they can't use cool/fun builds they find/farm

olsborg

BrianEno wrote: »

I completely disagree.
There are already two campaigns with proc sets enabled, play on these campaigns if it's the playstyle you're looking for.
If defensive sets are the problem, disable all procs and leave only stat sets. No problem.

Agreed, the only reason i play eso anymore is because of the noprocc campaign.

Qrähe

Proc doesn't bring build diversity. It brings a bunch of people playing strong proc sets.

1.) Pariah overrated, don't use it at all.
2.) Been in a number of fights outnumbered 2 to 1 or worse and won them. It's more than doable.
3.) Faction imbalance is overblown. Literally have seen times in the last month where each of the factions had the most numbers.

Azrael001

Lol how about no. I'd be down for a nerf to defensive sets and self-healing for RW because I agree those are too strong in the current state of things, but in general proc sets are just a way for low-skill players to close a skill gap. You don't need skill to cast an AOE > Dark Convergence or Rush of Agony (the latter being into CC) > Smash + Negate, and that's a guaranteed chunk of kills no matter how good your opponents are, especially with rush of agony since it doesn't give CC immunity.

Plus, Plaguebreak has made proc campaigns unplayable for many warden or templar builds, and allowed for people on the opposing side to login to a toon and just wipe entire chunks of the enemy by spam purging with no effort.

RW is currently the one and only place anyone can go for PvP to escape the horrendous no-skill proc sets that are currently meta. Not to say they can't be countered, but it takes far, far more skill and far better timing to counter many than it takes to use them.

Additionally, many procs (mythics) require people to buy chapters and stuff to stay with the meta. It's good to have a campaign for people just getting into the game who don't know if they like it or not. Or for people who simply don't want to buy or PvE whole new chapters to get that stuff. Currently, you can do well in RW without any mythics, solely due to the fact that there are no procs allowed.

If you want build diversity that comes from proc sets, go to GH and get dark convergenced to death over and over and over again or get purged by a random pug over and over instead of demanding a removal of diversity of campaign types.

BosmeriPride

1. Being tanky is part of every PvP meta, proc or no proc. You can't really do anything if you're dead, after all. So adding more sets to this wouldn't change it. In fact, it would open the doors for even more crazy survivability sets.
2. Not true at all, we've been in many fights where we were outnumbered (in rare instances against a group even three times our size) and still managed to snatch a victory. Numbers will always aid in battle, so the game will always incentivise large groups - adding proc sets won't change this, it never has. You see just as many large groups running around in proc campaigns as you do in Ravenwatch.
3. The campaign will always be population unbalanced one way or another. This is because a lot of solo players flock to the winning alliance, and you can see this present just as much in other proc campaigns. If you want to solve this issue, Alliance-lock is your solution!

I have nothing against procs per se. I actually really like them (and miss them!) in Ravenwatch. The issue with proc campaigns is that there just *isn't* build diversity. With proc sets enabled, 70%+ of players you encounter are running at least one of these: Earthgore, Dark Convergence, Plaguebreak - because they are overwhelmingly stronger than most other options. That doesn't add to diversity, it just makes things even more stale.

If proc sets were properly balanced so that no one set is that much stronger than another set, you would see increased build diversity for sure. The issue is that it just isn't the case for how they are right now. I'm not sure if ZOS has a PvP dev team focused on balancing, but that's where they would come in and make changes like that. You can never have a perfectly balanced game, but the work of a balance team would minimise the power gap between different sets to allow more diversity.

Until proc sets are properly balanced (if they ever are), I'd rather not have any proc sets at all.

ResidentContrarian

As long as pariah and certain mythics and arena weapons are allowed, proc sets not being allowed is a joke. I say that as someone that doesn't even slot them.

TechMaybeHic

It's kind of a place people use to escape Procs so its a no from me; but I do find it off-putting that there is a mystery to what works and why, and to have so many different rulesets for PVP

BrianEno

In CP campaigns everywhere you go theres dark convergence spam, every fight, every time.
We already have 2 campaigns for those who want this type of quality gameplay. It makes no sense to exclude the only no proc campaign from the game.
A proc set that would be welcome in ravenwatch is VD. Dark convergence, plague, etc, no tks.

Mega_Nova

BrianEno wrote: »

In CP campaigns everywhere you go theres dark convergence spam, every fight, every time.
We already have 2 campaigns for those who want this type of quality gameplay. It makes no sense to exclude the only no proc campaign from the game.

So your whole idea is because of a couple sets? Explain to me how well the balancing is with the current allowed sets? Can you find me an updated post that ZoS has with accurate listings? Can you explain to me the idea behind the mechanics of counter play with what is currently allowed? Can you honestly say that having no proc sets helped the campaign population wise vs hurting it? Where is your data referencing the ideas of one set ruining a campaign when you have no idea how it works in a noncp enviroment outside of a BG? Have you played BGs with them? Run some logs and look at some data. Your argument based on feelings alone is invalid.

acastanza_ESO

An accurate set list for no-proc is supposedly being worked on: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7586846#Comment_7586957

Mega_Nova

To be honest I had an idea of implementing sets up through One Tamriel first. Restrict everything after that. Groups would gain the utility of sets such as Sanctuary, Ebon, and Hircines. It would still have a different feel than that of CP while allowing newer sets that still get adjusted due to balancing calcuations to be weeded out. There would be an availbility to create a more diverse atmosphere.

Or just add in monster helms? Allow all Mythics? The argument isnt just "Hey put it all in", more so why do we who enjoy non cp gameplay over cp gameplay, do not get considered as much when they implement new sets to the game and it comes down to the community identifying what works or not.

BrianEno

Mega_Nova wrote: »

BrianEno wrote: »

In CP campaigns everywhere you go theres dark convergence spam, every fight, every time.
We already have 2 campaigns for those who want this type of quality gameplay. It makes no sense to exclude the only no proc campaign from the game.

So your whole idea is because of a couple sets? Explain to me how well the balancing is with the current allowed sets? Can you find me an updated post that ZoS has with accurate listings? Can you explain to me the idea behind the mechanics of counter play with what is currently allowed? Can you honestly say that having no proc sets helped the campaign population wise vs hurting it? Where is your data referencing the ideas of one set ruining a campaign when you have no idea how it works in a noncp enviroment outside of a BG? Have you played BGs with them? Run some logs and look at some data. Your argument based on feelings alone is invalid.

Meg
There is no data stating that a set ruins a campaign, as there is no data about dark convergence making campaigns good. This is obviously subjetive. Some people love to play surrounded by procs, some don't. Point is there are already two campaigns with proc, only one non cp. It makes no sense to kill the only one without proc.
As I said before, the proc set that would be rly welcome in non CP is VD. As for mechanics, I know you have data on how healing stack is a problem in non cp. And I truly believe that the crushed ~ballzergs~ in non cp should put the bitter feeling aside and rethink about "without my proc I can't win there".

Mega_Nova

BrianEno wrote: »

Mega_Nova wrote: »

BrianEno wrote: »

In CP campaigns everywhere you go theres dark convergence spam, every fight, every time.
We already have 2 campaigns for those who want this type of quality gameplay. It makes no sense to exclude the only no proc campaign from the game.

So your whole idea is because of a couple sets? Explain to me how well the balancing is with the current allowed sets? Can you find me an updated post that ZoS has with accurate listings? Can you explain to me the idea behind the mechanics of counter play with what is currently allowed? Can you honestly say that having no proc sets helped the campaign population wise vs hurting it? Where is your data referencing the ideas of one set ruining a campaign when you have no idea how it works in a noncp enviroment outside of a BG? Have you played BGs with them? Run some logs and look at some data. Your argument based on feelings alone is invalid.

Meg
There is no data stating that a set ruins a campaign, as there is no data about dark convergence making campaigns good. This is obviously subjetive. Some people love to play surrounded by procs, some don't. Point is there are already two campaigns with proc, only one non cp. It makes no sense to kill the only one without proc.
As I said before, the proc set that would be rly welcome in non CP is VD. As for mechanics, I know you have data on how healing stack is a problem in non cp. And I truly believe that the crushed ~ballzergs~ in non cp should put the bitter feeling aside and rethink about "without my proc I can't win there"

This just 100% proves that the only reason you are even on this forum post is because you and I play on opposite sides. I appreciate the attention.

An argument could also be made for the addition of another non cp campaign to be added that allows procs.

BrianEno

Mega_Nova wrote: »

BrianEno wrote: »

Mega_Nova wrote: »

BrianEno wrote: »

In CP campaigns everywhere you go theres dark convergence spam, every fight, every time.
We already have 2 campaigns for those who want this type of quality gameplay. It makes no sense to exclude the only no proc campaign from the game.

So your whole idea is because of a couple sets? Explain to me how well the balancing is with the current allowed sets? Can you find me an updated post that ZoS has with accurate listings? Can you explain to me the idea behind the mechanics of counter play with what is currently allowed? Can you honestly say that having no proc sets helped the campaign population wise vs hurting it? Where is your data referencing the ideas of one set ruining a campaign when you have no idea how it works in a noncp enviroment outside of a BG? Have you played BGs with them? Run some logs and look at some data. Your argument based on feelings alone is invalid.

Meg
There is no data stating that a set ruins a campaign, as there is no data about dark convergence making campaigns good. This is obviously subjetive. Some people love to play surrounded by procs, some don't. Point is there are already two campaigns with proc, only one non cp. It makes no sense to kill the only one without proc.
As I said before, the proc set that would be rly welcome in non CP is VD. As for mechanics, I know you have data on how healing stack is a problem in non cp. And I truly believe that the crushed ~ballzergs~ in non cp should put the bitter feeling aside and rethink about "without my proc I can't win there"

This just 100% proves that the only reason you are even on this forum post is because you and I play on opposite sides. I appreciate the attention.

An argument could also be made for the addition of another non cp campaign to be added that allows procs.

eh... What? You who quoted me and asked me questions, Im answering you.

acastanza_ESO

Mega_Nova wrote: »

To be honest I had an idea of implementing sets up through One Tamriel first. Restrict everything after that.

So kind of an "ESO Classic" PVP campaign. It's an interesting idea.
I do think you'd end up in basically the same place where people are only running the same handful of sets though, and if anything it might actually be a smaller handful of sets than we end up commonly running now, so while an interesting idea in the abstract I don't think it would actually to anything to improve the campaign. I don't think there is, in general, a real problem with no-proc as it is now, and I don't really see what this is intended to "fix".

Odysseus87

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Mega_Nova wrote: »

To be honest I had an idea of implementing sets up through One Tamriel first. Restrict everything after that.

So kind of an "ESO Classic" PVP campaign. It's an interesting idea.
I do think you'd end up in basically the same place where people are only running the same handful of sets though, and if anything it might actually be a smaller handful of sets than we end up commonly running now, so while an interesting idea in the abstract I don't think it would actually to anything to improve the campaign. I don't think there is, in general, a real problem with no-proc as it is now, and I don't really see what this is intended to "fix".

Correct me if I’m wrong, but what Mega is driving at is that there should be a counter to everything in ESO. Purge counters DOT builds, high burst counters heal and purge builds, tanky builds counter high burst, but in return do little damage. In proc campaigns sets like VD and plaugebreak counter large stacks of players, and currently that counter does not exist in Raven. It’s a winning strategy because it lacks any kind of effective counter, except to further body stack against it.

For instance, in BR and GH campaigns small groups of bombers are counters to large guilds like Army of the Pact. This is not available to fight the large numbers fielded in Ravenwatch by any faction. This is further compounded by the inclusion of defensive sets that should be considered procs (Torc, Pariah) but are not due to ZOS’s coding. So your left with a lot of players in very tanky sets with no “group bursting” options.

Not that any of this matters, this game has never been balanced around no cp and we are left at the mercy of CP balances that lead to wild swings here.

neferpitou73

Honestly you could just add a handful of sets and be fine. Balorgh to counter Pariah; VD to counter faction stack.


I'm still confused on the criteria they used to decide what is and isn't a proc set. Why for example does Ring of the Wild Hunt work but not Snow Treaders when the proc condition is the exact same?

Norith_Gilheart_Flail

No.

While it's beyond a person's individual control to ensure a fair map there are plenty of Blue and Red who all choose to favour Grey Host or Black Reach over Ravenwatch. Ask them why.

If they were present, they would have the exact same opportunities as AD but they choose not to. Calling faction stacking in a game with a consistently reduced cap is laughable. Either show up and play ball or don't! People seem satisfied however to only push AD during NA late night on Grey Host and forget the other teams keeps.

This is the one max level campaign that doesn't allow for crutches. There are two other options for you to consider.

xDeusEJRx

Even if you add in procs again, the meta will just go from mostly defensive sets to mostly offensive procs.

Build diversity in this game is an illusion. Having all sets enabled just gives you the "illusion" that you can play diverse builds but in reality everyone is gonna be running the same or similar variation of builds(aka following the meta).
People like to say build diversity is a thing, but people always run the same 15 sets no matter what the meta or set list may be. Build diversity is just an illusion. With Procs it's always: Clever, balorgh, VD, Convergence, Plaguebreak, Magma, Rallying cry, the list goes on.

The complaints will go from "people are too tanky with pariah" to "people are doing too much damage with plaguebreak and dark convergence builds". Like they are in CP pvp.

I honestly like no proc, not having to deal with annoying sets that pull, burst, dot you up and carry people's damage rotations. People have to earn kills which I enjoy, even if pariah makes it a chore at times I'd like to see no proc stay, even if ZOS has to add a separate NO CP for proc enabled

BrianEno

Exactly. Would be nice to have VD back, but leave dark convergence, plague, etc for GH and BR. Gameplay in raven is different, what you can do with class skills matters more than what sets can do for you.

So why not restric the cross healing stack and mitigation proportionally to the number of players in group? Simply stating that the counter to these problems is dark convergence fest is not reasonable.

Azrael001

Odysseus87 wrote: »

In proc campaigns sets like VD and plaugebreak counter large stacks of players, and currently that counter does not exist in Raven. It’s a winning strategy because it lacks any kind of effective counter, except to further body stack against it.

We still have full access to choke points, negates, smashes, novas, CC, etc. Just because you can't figure out how to use it doesn't mean we haven't wiped 60 man groups with 12 many times simply with good positioning and strategy (and a bit of overconfidence in their numbers on their side). Sure, it can be very tough to do especially when your opponents know what they're doing, but it's by no means undoable.

Saying that your enemies are too good at positioning, and that you NEED a proc to pull them into one convenient spot, or that they're too good at keeping sustain up enough to purge that you NEED to ban all purging with a no-skill one-click sets is simply wrong. If your current tactics aren't working, devise new ones or die with the old ones.

And with the argument to numbers being unfair, we all know that every faction has had superior numbers at one time or another. There is a large group of PvPers with no faction loyalty who just hop to the winning faction, in addition to PvP politics which affects population. You can either wait for it to be you, or fight for it to be, and get better at fighting outnumbered because there will always be an uphill battle to get those people back on your side.


Also, bot farms to get low-pop are not a very good strategy, and tend to encourage your enemy to take that win from you even if it means playing all day multiple days in a row

Thraben

True.

In NoCP no Proc you have to work to destroy faction stacks, whilst in Proc Cyro it's easier than it should be.

In the EU PC campaign, more and more veteran groups are returning to Ravenwatch because of this Classic ESO PvP feeling (and maybe because of the lag).

Odysseus87

Azrael001 wrote: »

Odysseus87 wrote: »

In proc campaigns sets like VD and plaugebreak counter large stacks of players, and currently that counter does not exist in Raven. It’s a winning strategy because it lacks any kind of effective counter, except to further body stack against it.

We still have full access to choke points, negates, smashes, novas, CC, etc. Just because you can't figure out how to use it doesn't mean we haven't wiped 60 man groups with 12 many times simply with good positioning and strategy (and a bit of overconfidence in their numbers on their side). Sure, it can be very tough to do especially when your opponents know what they're doing, but it's by no means undoable.

Saying that your enemies are too good at positioning, and that you NEED a proc to pull them into one convenient spot, or that they're too good at keeping sustain up enough to purge that you NEED to ban all purging with a no-skill one-click sets is simply wrong. If your current tactics aren't working, devise new ones or die with the old ones.

And with the argument to numbers being unfair, we all know that every faction has had superior numbers at one time or another. There is a large group of PvPers with no faction loyalty who just hop to the winning faction, in addition to PvP politics which affects population. You can either wait for it to be you, or fight for it to be, and get better at fighting outnumbered because there will always be an uphill battle to get those people back on your side.


Also, bot farms to get low-pop are not a very good strategy, and tend to encourage your enemy to take that win from you even if it means playing all day multiple days in a row

“lol get gud and quit hacking”. Ok fam, please show me your group of 12 wiping a group of 60 in a choke point. Proofs in the pudding, let’s see it.

Qrähe

johnicus

No, just no...

ArdenLightBringer

How about no......

RaikaNA

No Ravenwatch is better off without proc sets... If you want to use proc sets go to GH or BR or even Icereach...