The difference between a fake and a "real" healer/tank?

Tesman85

In the forums one often sees posts about fake healers and tanks in dungeons. It is obvious that a dps-build without heal/tanking skills slotted is a fake. But with anything else a question arises: What it requires for the role to be "real"? Should the build be exclusively made for the specific role? Or is a hybrid or dps-build with a few heal/tank skills in the backbar sufficient? Both the healer and especially the tank are somewhat relative concepts, after all.

This is a somewhat personal question for me, since I recently took the dive into pug group dungeoneering. My character for that is a solo magsorc build that has a dd frontbar, healing backbar and physical/spell protection in the excess of 20 000 even without buffs (so a bit of tank in the mix, too). With trash mobs I act as a third dps (unless someone seems to need healing, then I whip out the resto bar) and switch to mainly using the heal bar with only resto staff skills when facing bosses. Is this proper etiquette, or should I stick to healing only? I have to admit that I queue as a healer partly to cut down the waiting time, but still I wouldn't want to be a hindrance or be called a fake.

Ksariyu

The difference depends entirely on who you ask. I've cleared vet dungeons with ease queueing with my bow healer, but there have been a couple instances of people claiming I'm a fake healer despite having 7 heal/support skills on my bar. Personally, I say as long as your build attempts to fill a role, you are that role. Everything else comes down to how well you can make it work.

FeedbackOnly

It's philosophy question really.

What we have is a problem that DPS can do enough healing to cover healing requirements in base content or DPS fast enough that hps requirements can be bypassed in dlc content.

So as a result we have angry healers and tanks who built for the role calling them fakes.

The tank problem was because we simply got tankier over time. I remember long long ago murcrabs in fungal grotto would kill people. Tanks had to block shield and sword mobs or allies would lose a lot of health for mistakes. We longer pay for our mistakes

What you see people complaining about is people who fake tank badly or don't even heal. The other part of it is a pushback that DPS are stealing other roles at almost no cost.

I miss the days when tanks had to actually be tanky and healers actually healed

FeedbackOnly

Actually something funny before bloodroot we actually had a tank problem. It used to be 3 DPS plus 1 healer problem. Then we had 1 tank plus 3 DPS problem. Now it's 4 DPS movement

neferpitou73

The definition of "fake healer/tank" is dependent entirely on how annoyed a player is at that particular person in their group.

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone trying to calling out the 80k DPS who burned down all the bosses in minutes just because he queued as a tank.

Play the way you want. So long as it doesn't negatively impact the group.

Lazuli

What draws the lines:
1st: the sets you equip
2nd: the skills you slot

FeedbackOnly

Lazuli wrote: »

What draws the lines:
1st: the 2 sets you equip
2nd: the skills you slot

Sometimes it's even the class. I had people call my fully equipped sorc tank a fake. Had standard skills too. The same for my nightblade healer too....

FeedbackOnly

neferpitou73 wrote: »

The definition of "fake healer/tank" is dependent entirely on how annoyed a player is at that particular person in their group.

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone trying to calling out the 80k DPS who burned down all the bosses in minutes just because he queued as a tank.

Play the way you want. So long as it doesn't negatively impact the group.

Actually some people get really made at high DPS who steal tank roles. I know s few people who will vote to kick fake tanks who do this

Lazuli

So a "real" healer would equip support sets like sanctuary, spell power cure, hollowfang, stone stalker, etc. With 3 goals on mind: keep everyone alive, buff them, and replenish their resources. Typically with a restoration staff, combat prayer and radiating life skills, spears , orbs, etc.

A "hybrid" healer will usually equip 1 or more dps set and 1 or less support set. And have their skill mixed between damage and heals.

A "fake" healer usually has zero or close to none support sets and skills. Add this to even not doing a good damage and someone will most likely complain or try to kick you.

Lazuli

The sacred oath of true healers:
"I swear I will do my best to keep everyone alive, buff them, and replenish their resources".

And probably no one would even notice your efforts, but that's okay. It's part of our job.

FeedbackOnly

Lazuli wrote: »

The sacred oath of true healers:
"I swear I will do my best to keep everyone alive, buff them, and replenish their resources".

And probably no one would even notice your efforts, but that's okay. It's part of our job.

😂 So this one time...I had a DPS complain I was a real healer. They were like DPS instead

Heydan_Seegil

Necro Tank here and all I can say is a real tank keeps everything taunted as well as knows how to block/stun. Of course if your group doesn't want to let the tank tank and keeps taunting everything away from the tank so then they have to retaunt then then that is on that member of the group and not the tank.

I used to play a Warden Healer as my main. It was brutal playing a Healer as Warden because all the heals are like over time and groups would roll and dodge out of the AOE as soon as it popped so they'd miss the heal and get all angry. Of course as time went on people got better about working with Warden Healers.

But then that brings us back to a good tank. A good tank doesn't need to dodge and ruin AOEs but pulling things out of them. They should be solid like a stone pillar and keep everything taunted and in the AOE so the party can maximize DPS and heals. Working together in a group is a good part of this game so it takes some work I guess IDK... it isn't such a big deal is I get a bad instance with my Tank because I can run the entire dungeon myself no problem but on my Healer it was annoying.

MidniteOwl1913

I play a healer and wouldn't consider myself one without having a restro staff slotted. I have mostly heals/buffs on my bars, but after a couple of times when the tank couldn't hold the boss and he came after me, I added some offensive skills. After all the worse healer is a dead healer...

FeedbackOnly

.

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

I play a healer and wouldn't consider myself one without having a restro staff slotted. I have mostly heals/buffs on my bars, but after a couple of times when the tank couldn't hold the boss and he came after me, I added some offensive skills. After all the worse healer is a dead healer...

...I leveled aggro fire, caltrops so I can tank as a healer...when fake tanks don't even try.

ixthUA

Real tank:
+ does not die from 1 hit (unless it's a mechanic that requires other player);
+ keeps boss taunted and applies minor + major breach;
+ uses pull to group mobs;
+ has a self-heal and damage shield, and can survive without a healer.
As a bonus, can use team support sets (ebon armory and powerful assault do not count).

Real healer:
+ stacks HoTs on DDs, so they are healed every second, even when healer cant heal;
+ has burst heal and uses it if tank takes bit hits;
+ uses support sets to buff team damage (i buff team spell/weapon power by 930);
+ helps with DPS at least by light attacking, but can have a full DD bar.

These are just my conditions.

LashanW

ixthUA wrote: »

Real tank:
As a bonus, can use team support sets (ebon armory and powerful assault do not count).

Why doesn't Powerful assault count?
It's a pretty great support set that can be backbarred.

Sjestenka

I was called 'fake tank', once. Which was absolutely unfair. Bad tank is not fake tank! There's difference!

FeedbackOnly

ixthUA wrote: »

Real tank:
+ does not die from 1 hit (unless it's a mechanic that requires other player);
+ keeps boss taunted and applies minor + major breach;
+ uses pull to group mobs;
+ has a self-heal and damage shield, and can survive without a healer.
As a bonus, can use team support sets (ebon armory and powerful assault do not count).

Real healer:
+ stacks HoTs on DDs, so they are healed every second, even when healer cant heal;
+ has burst heal and uses it if tank takes bit hits;
+ uses support sets to buff team damage (i buff team spell/weapon power by 930);
+ helps with DPS at least by light attacking, but can have a full DD bar.

These are just my conditions.

😛 Be fair now... support sets on healer should be bonus too

Amerises

When I'm a dps doing more damage then the fake tank who can't hold arggo because their dps sucks, they're fake. When I'm dps and the fake tank dps uses dodge roll and moves boss out of all my aoe dots because they can't take a hit, their a fake tank. When I have to switch to my back bar and cast a heal or several HoTs because the fake healer isn't keeping me alive because their two HoTs dropped and are killing mobs, their a fake healer.

As a dps, fake roles very often lower over all group dps for with decent (or better) players. Though I also understand that when I'm on my healer or tank and dps is miserable, nothing is worse in this game.

I think if you want to do dps, make sure your dps aren't doing their job right first. When they are pulling 9k dps together, they're not doing their part anyways.

honglatongla

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

😂 So this one time...I had a DPS complain I was a real healer. They were like DPS instead

I've done that. Mind you, I was queued as fake DPS as a healer, with a friend for a quicker queue. Was hoping for a fake healer but that didn't happen sadly. I think we had a tank with us too.

FeedbackOnly

honglatongla wrote: »

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

😂 So this one time...I had a DPS complain I was a real healer. They were like DPS instead

I've done that. Mind you, I was queued as fake DPS as a healer, with a friend for a quicker queue. Was hoping for a fake healer but that didn't happen sadly. I think we had a tank with us too.

I laughed but the situation is really awkward when we want healers to be DPS instead. There's a real problem on heals per second the game. You can away with very time amount of healing

This one time I was able to heal a veteran dungeon in lvl 20 gear without any cp just fine.

The fake healing problem exists because healing requirements are extremely low in eso with the current state of game

VaranisArano

My base requirements: A real tank taunts the boss. A real healer heals the group when they need it, with the understanding that they can't heal stupid.

When will I call you a fake?

Fake Tank = I'm facetanking with my healer. Just because I can doesn't mean I want to.

Fake Healer = You ran ahead of my tank like a tryhard DD and died. Physician, heal thyself.

Iselin

Real simply means having the tools and putting in the effort required by the group to do the role when and if needed.

It doesn't imply excellence - that is something else.

Amottica

A real tank has a taunt and uses it, especially on bosses. It also helps if they can survive.
A real healer has at least one heal that can heal others and uses it to help keep the group alive.

Cooperharley

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

It's philosophy question really.

What we have is a problem that DPS can do enough healing to cover healing requirements in base content or DPS fast enough that hps requirements can be bypassed in dlc content.

So as a result we have angry healers and tanks who built for the role calling them fakes.

The tank problem was because we simply got tankier over time. I remember long long ago murcrabs in fungal grotto would kill people. Tanks had to block shield and sword mobs or allies would lose a lot of health for mistakes. We longer pay for our mistakes

What you see people complaining about is people who fake tank badly or don't even heal. The other part of it is a pushback that DPS are stealing other roles at almost no cost.

I miss the days when tanks had to actually be tanky and healers actually healed

I definitely agree with this. I also think most days now, the only real annoyance is when there is a fake tank and even then, it’s only a REAL nuisance to the group when it’s a vet dungeon OR if the whole group is questing.

For me personally, idc about a fake healer. This is largely because the content typically is tankable and sustainable without a healer nowadays. This could be a factor of the game getting easier OR people just being much more experienced now on average.

I tank and I’d always rather have 3 dps than 2 dps and a healer for most vet content as long as they can sustain and heal themselves. I wish this was a toggleable option when queueing for dungeons where you can toggle 3 dps 1 tank composition OR the typical 1 tank 1 healer 2 dps. It makes a lot of the content go a lot faster especially when you get the odd 700 CP wood elf nightblade light attacking with a bow the entire time in a vet dlc dungeon. I do think this would also alleviate the annoyance that people have because some people want AND expect a healer, so that sucks in that case for them..

As a whole I definitely think fake tanks are worse, but only because some people think they can burn bosses without worrying about mechanics when they can’t. I also think that there should just be a solo/companion only mode for questing because if you get unlucky enough to be a new player and queue in to a random normal with a bunch of CP 1500+ dudes trying to get their transmutes.. not a good mix

Succuby

Tesman85 wrote: »

In the forums one often sees posts about fake healers and tanks in dungeons. It is obvious that a dps-build without heal/tanking skills slotted is a fake. But with anything else a question arises: What it requires for the role to be "real"? Should the build be exclusively made for the specific role? Or is a hybrid or dps-build with a few heal/tank skills in the backbar sufficient? Both the healer and especially the tank are somewhat relative concepts, after all.

This is a somewhat personal question for me, since I recently took the dive into pug group dungeoneering. My character for that is a solo magsorc build that has a dd frontbar, healing backbar and physical/spell protection in the excess of 20 000 even without buffs (so a bit of tank in the mix, too). With trash mobs I act as a third dps (unless someone seems to need healing, then I whip out the resto bar) and switch to mainly using the heal bar with only resto staff skills when facing bosses. Is this proper etiquette, or should I stick to healing only? I have to admit that I queue as a healer partly to cut down the waiting time, but still I wouldn't want to be a hindrance or be called a fake.

If have 1 agro skill and agr + do not die = tank.

Always dead no agr + tank role = fake tank.

Tesman85

Well, looks like opinions vary. Maybe that was to be expected. My own view after reading the responses could be summed by Iselin's words:

Iselin wrote: »

Real simply means having the tools and putting in the effort required by the group to do the role when and if needed.

It doesn't imply excellence - that is something else.

By that definition I've been a real healer, although not an excellent one. No specific sets, but a bar full of heal skills should be enough to fulfil the bill.

And looks like with average pug's some kind of healer is needed, although some disagree. For instance, in one dungeon I got a bit frustrated by how my efforts seemed to help very little. So I switched to the dd bar for one boss fight. Guess what happened? Three dead out of four, my character included. Fortunately our tank was, well, a real tank and almost unkillable He managed to bring the boss down, as it was at low health. After that, lesson learned and back to healing for me.

GuildedLilly

I've set the bar kinda low for tanks and healers since I run mostly PUGs, but here's my minimum expectations:

tank: has at least one taunt, and uses it. Doesn't die if the boss sneezes in their direction.
healer: has at least one skill that can heal someone other than themselves.

There's a difference between being 'fake', and still learning their role, or having a hybrid build. If you're not taunting, you're not a tank. If you're not healing anyone other than yourself, you're not a healer. My tanks can heal, and my healers can taunt, because I keep dropping into dungeons where people Q'd up with absolutely no intention of fulfilling the role they chose.

Learning to stack mobs, keep HOTs up, never forget to block a boss heavy attack, and keep buffs and resources for groups up at all times can take some time to learn. As long as the player is making an honest effort, I don't particularly care if the tank is a little squishy, if the healer is offense oriented, ect. Just TRY to do the role you signed up for, and we're good.

Kahnak

I don't think people have high expectations for these roles, aside from performing their very basic function. I could honestly care less what race or class you're using, or whatever strange and esoteric build you've put together. For me, it essentially boils down to the below bare bones expectation:

Tanks should have a taunt and should be able to survive.

Healers should heal the group.

Most people's experience with fake roles, tanks especially, is some Templar chasing the boss around with jabs while the boss is aggroed to the DPS that's doing the most damage. The thing that most people don't realize, because they don't understand the game, is that all of the damage you think you're adding is completely nullified by the fact that:

a) the boss is moving out of all of the AOE's and ultimates that are being used
b) top DPS are being chased by a boss that can potentially one shot them in some cases, so they are dodge rolling and running instead of doing damage
c) in a lot of cases a competent healer is having a difficult time keeping up buffs because he's chasing around the DD's or spam healing the person being chased because they don't have the mitigation to take boss damage.

It's not clever. It's not making the dungeon go faster. You're just imposing on a group of strangers by subverting the system and making what should generally be a short dungeon run take longer because you couldn't wait a couple of extra minutes in queue.

AvalonRanger

My DK girl usually become last man standing even keep taunting or using share damage shield.
...So I think she is not fake tank.

I will not angry anymore against fake role. I want to go casual in this game rather than hardcore combat.
ESO is "extremely bad game contents for the beginner" anyway. Because there're not much good training content or
good building tutorial in this game. That's true. ESO is not welcome!! for the casual gamer.

I think that's the worst aspect of this game. People saying aggressive word after dungeon failure each other, that's a
most disgusting moment.

Elder Scrolls fan is not MMO fan. Elder Scrolls fan just do what they want to do. They still think that they're "dragon born".

M0ntie

What you're doing sounds great.

A real healer does the healing required for the situation (excluding people who get 1 shot and stand in damage AOEs excessively). So for random normal dungeons so long as you have enough group healing to do that you're not fake. Honestly, for normal dungeons there isn't that much damage so you'll have spare capacity to deal some damage, which helps the group so is fine. Also if you could do more damage than could be gained by buffing only 2 other dps, you're better off dealing damage.

Super optimised groups will have the healer healing, applying group buffs and debuffs and any spare activity time is spent dealing damage (with that priority). (eg. vAS where the "tank healer" will run 2 ice staffs and MK/Z'ens.) In almost all situations a healer will have a destro staff back barred.

A healer does not have to run a resto, especially in a normal dungeon. Plenty of classes have great class heals. eg necro, templar, warden, and can give enough group heals with those (if you know what you're doing) without a resto.

A real tank in a dungeon at a minimum holds taunt on the stuff that hits hard. Preferably debuffs also - reduces the boss resistances.