Bash Bash bash

Nser

Since the buff to bash in the Deadlands patch we've seen them trying to balance bash by tweaking the values from the SnB passive (deadly bash) and this time the heavy armor change.
Now I believe Bash is a little too overtuned at the moment on the high end, however the nerf to the Deadly Bash passive was a mistake.

Deadly bash: This passive now adds 500 damage to your bash attacks, down from 1.5k

This reduce in damage was obviously needed, but the result is bash builds are only worth when going all in with Sets and infused glyphs, rather than stand alone SnB.
The difference between bashing on Dual wield vs SnB when not using sets such as deadlands and bash glyphs, is like literally 200 or so damage (pvp). Unacceptable imo when they just made changes to make this kind of playstyle more viable.
I believe SnB bash in general, without specccing heavily into bash gear, should feel alot stronger than bashing with any other weapon. Currently the only benefit SnB provides for bashing is the reduce cost which is honestly laughable since with some decent stamregen, and not holding down block while u bash, its essentially free.

Heres my proposed fix:
Nerf Deadlands demolisher from 930 bash damage down to 500
Nerf Veiled Heritance from 500 bash damage down to 200
Nerf Bash damage glyphs from 500 to 350, this will mean infused bash glyphs max at 560 instead of 800 (x3 jewelery slots)
BUFF Deadly Bash SnB passive from 500 to 1500

When you combine these values lost it comes down to 1420 bash damage reduction, while gaining 1k back from the SnB passive itself so at the high end pure bash builds lose 420 tooltip this way.
That is imo a small price to pay if it can make standalone snb bash more viable

Edit:
New Proposed changes to not further nerf the damage, yet still buff Deadly Bash.

Deadlands Demolisher from 930 to 630
Veiled Heritance from 516 to 316
Bash Damage glyph from 500 to 400, making infused go from 799 down to 640 (x3 jewelery)
Buff Deadly Bash Sword and Board Passive from 500 to 1500

This time the nerfs combined make a total of 980, while you get 1000 back from the Deadly Bash buff resulting in a mere 20 bash damage added BUT gives standalone Deadly Bash a place

tsaescishoeshiner

It's worth noting that Power Bash was changed to also benefit from your bash damage buffs and modifiers, including sets and passives. I think some of these nerfs were made with that in mind, and it might be limiting the power they want to give to bashes.

I might be misunderstanding your bash damage glyph idea. Currently, on glyph of bashing gives 350 Weapon & Spell Damage to your bash attacks (including Power Bash), rather than giving a flat damage bonus.

Nser

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

It's worth noting that Power Bash was changed to also benefit from your bash damage buffs and modifiers, including sets and passives. I think some of these nerfs were made with that in mind, and it might be limiting the power they want to give to bashes.

I might be misunderstanding your bash damage glyph idea. Currently, on glyph of bashing gives 350 Weapon & Spell Damage to your bash attacks (including Power Bash), rather than giving a flat damage bonus.

Gold infused necklace or ring with a bashing damage glyph says the following: adds 799 to your bash attacks.
Base 500 + infused 60% makes 799/800.
I am asking for the Base 500 value to be nerfed down to 350, 350 + infused 60% makes 560 per piece

Veg

They already nerfed the 3% increased bash damage per heavy piece down to a flat 30 point increase. And power slam lost 33% damage. Safe to say bashing is nerfed to crap already. Wasn't even over powered in the first place but hey its zenimax, they just nerf stuff.

Nser

Veg wrote: »

They already nerfed the 3% increased bash damage per heavy piece down to a flat 30 point increase. And power slam lost 33% damage. Safe to say bashing is nerfed to crap already. Wasn't even over powered in the first place but hey its zenimax, they just nerf stuff.

if its already nerfed and unusable, surely powerslam can sacrefice that 420 ( on the high end) in favor of +1k on standalone bash.
Gear and glyphs should be added damage, not the entire damage.
Currently Deadly Bash adds 500 to bash atks, 3x infused bash + deadlands + veiled adds 3843 thats over 7 times the original damage. At this point bashing has little to do with SnB itself when Dual Wield gets those same values when using these sets and enchant, minus the 500 from deadly bash ofcourse.
with my "fix", the value of the sets and enchant combine to 2380, while Deadly bash goes up to 1500. All of a sudden bashing has something to do with Sword and board again when gear and glyphs dont make up for 7x but less than 2x more ADDED damage

Succuby

Bash sets was not OP - yes it only did Bash damage - but it was fun build with middle treat to a middle player.

It is not as an example build with unlimited resources while shielding - with Assylum shield and sword and good damage and mobility same time.

Bash builds are limited with range and use a lot of resources per each bush hit. That is compared with middle spam builds.

So why it becomes problems for you ?

Because it does not do LA + skill all the time - or it is another problems ?

fripplethorn

The Bash nerfs have already entirely gutted the archetype. There is no such thing as a Bash build going forward. The nerfs to the One Hand & Shield passives were WAY too heavy-handed. That over-nerf was then followed up with an equally short-sighted nerf to the Heavy Armor passive. Bash is dead.

Even in the "overpowered" state of testing after the change to Power Slam, it was a barely viable archetype. In order to play it, one had to give up healing, any sort of damage besides bashing, sustain, and mobility in order to become basically a human DoT. It was a niche style, and took people by surprise in PvP. But was extremely counterable by just moving. A bash build was easily kited. One gave up everything to bash.

The overreaction-driven nerf (because of some outlier screenshots on non-vet PvE content) to the One-Hand & Shield passives already killed the build for the most part. All that was left were a very scarce few diehards that continued to play it just for the RP of it. The ludicrous nerfs to the Heavy Armor passives have made it so that the build is entirely useless. In fact, it's not even a "build" anymore.

If Zos truly wans to encourage the "off-meta" playstyles like Bash and Heavy Attack used to be, then they need to learn how to balance instead of just nerf into uselessness. A nerf of perhaps 10-15% after the Power Slam mistake would have still kept it as a niche and barely played option. But alas, everyone has to be a MagDK...

Succuby

>>If Zos truly wans to encourage the "off-meta" playstyles like Bash and Heavy Attack used to be, then they need to learn how to balance instead of just nerf into uselessness.<<

I do not think they do.

It is not hard to understand if you have 2 sets (builds) with 120-130 k dps and 90 k DPS what needs nerd.

They nerf sets with 90k DPS - but are OK with 120-130k dps sets ... .

In new update they nerf ALL DPS - but include some good sets. Whyle a lot of sets already are bad - they get new nerf with CP even more.
--- --- ---

So for no one thinking - it do not look like that.
It is random changes that people can not understand - because only option is: random changes with no real logick.
That makes game unplayable more and more each patch.

Mr_Stach

I don't think Zos much cares if something is weak in instances, they care about if something is too strong. There's a ton of things that are just plain awful that will probably never get fixed because they don't create issues on the upper end.

Succuby

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I don't think Zos much cares if something is weak in instances, they care about if something is too strong. There's a ton of things that are just plain awful that will probably never get fixed because they don't create issues on the upper end.

New META gear with 120k + DPS is not concidered too strong - compared as example to old sets ?

Mr_Stach

Yeah kinda busted, I got nothing. Zos Nerfs things that often don't need it and buff things way too much then forget to tone it back.

Zos has Powercreep hard wired, they want people to want to grind the new stuff, so it's stronger. Why would I go get Y when X is on equal footing and I already have X Upgraded.

Succuby

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Yeah kinda busted, I got nothing. Zos Nerfs things that often don't need it and buff things way too much then forget to tone it back.

Zos has Powercreep hard wired, they want people to want to grind the new stuff, so it's stronger. Why would I go get Y when X is on equal footing and I already have X Upgraded.

Current changes that make me do not buy new charapter as a lot of people - and even do not wait for it ... so it do not already looks like working strategy.

People can dislike such changes 2-3-4 times but any patience have limit.

For me it becomes first charapter i will not buy since 2017.

Mr_Stach

I mean I've been waiting for 5 Years for Magicka Warden to figure it's stuff out..... But here we are. Nerfing Arctic Blast..... Again.

Nser

One way or another Deadly Bash needs to feel more impactful on the damage side.
My proped values are just that, proposed values I do not have all the answers but maybe its something to work with.

So lets say there can be adjustments buff/nerfs that will end up in break even for bash damage on the high end, but still manage to buff Deadly Bash standalone from 500 to 1.5k, that would then be OK right? thats essentially what the post is for

Mr_Stach

Nser wrote: »

One way or another Deadly Bash needs to feel more impactful on the damage side.
My proped values are just that, proposed values I do not have all the answers but maybe its something to work with.

So lets say there can be adjustments buff/nerfs that will end up in break even for bash damage on the high end, but still manage to buff Deadly Bash standalone from 500 to 1.5k, that would then be OK right? thats essentially what the post is for

I'm down. I actually really like SnB for the Most part. I wish there was some kind of Execute in there as well.

Nser

New Proposed changes to not further nerf the damage, yet still buff Deadly Bash.

Deadlands Demolisher from 930 to 630
Veiled Heritance from 516 to 316
Bash Damage glyph from 500 to 400, making infused go from 799 down to 640 (x3 jewelery)
Buff Deadly Bash Sword and Board Passive from 500 to 1500

This time the nerfs combined make a total of 980, while you get 1000 back from the Deadly Bash buff resulting in a mere 20 bash damage added BUT gives standalone Deadly Bash a place

Nser

so if Bash damage doesnt get buffed nor nerfed, but Deadly bash gets a much needed edge, I dont see the problem in that

Panachudo

They haven’t nerfed it though. They have reallocated the 33% increase to Riposte. This gives all direct damage attacks an increase of 33%. This will buff any other direct damage skill you may have slotted as well. Including Power Slam and a myriad of other class skills.

What I am seeing ZOS do is provide a level of flexibility to the entire system rather than specific skills. It will come down the player digesting and understanding how these mechanics are interlinked.

Sets like Deadlands Demolisher don’t require a nerf or buff. The current PTS implementation is certainly inline with the hybridization goal. As mentioned previously, it simply requires a level of creativity to implement the damage type you are trying to achieve.

Knights Errant with Deadlands Demolisher, Oaken Soul, and a one piece monster set looks like a great option for a one-bar SnB build I’d say.

Nser

Panachudo wrote: »

They haven’t nerfed it though. They have reallocated the 33% increase to Riposte. This gives all direct damage attacks an increase of 33%. This will buff any other direct damage skill you may have slotted as well. Including Power Slam and a myriad of other class skills.

What I am seeing ZOS do is provide a level of flexibility to the entire system rather than specific skills. It will come down the player digesting and understanding how these mechanics are interlinked.

Sets like Deadlands Demolisher don’t require a nerf or buff. The current PTS implementation is certainly inline with the hybridization goal. As mentioned previously, it simply requires a level of creativity to implement the damage type you are trying to achieve.

Knights Errant with Deadlands Demolisher, Oaken Soul, and a one piece monster set looks like a great option for a one-bar SnB build I’d say.

Riposte is invalid since its on a 5 second cooldown, where resentment from powerslam 33% damage buff had no cooldown.
It is nerfed, the cost reduction replacement is a joke because the proper way of Powerslamming is with Shield Discipline SnB ultimate, which makes Powerslam free

sharquez

Nser wrote: »

Riposte is invalid since its on a 5 second cooldown, where resentment from powerslam 33% damage buff had no cooldown.
It is nerfed, the cost reduction replacement is a joke because the proper way of Powerslamming is with Shield Discipline SnB ultimate, which makes Powerslam free

Now see they could do something with the sword and board ult to fix this like make it so all sword skills do extra damage or something... But I'd really prefer they left things as they are currently on live so I can play this build in BGs and feel good about it vs all the other more optimal set ups.

divnyi

Nser wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

They already nerfed the 3% increased bash damage per heavy piece down to a flat 30 point increase. And power slam lost 33% damage. Safe to say bashing is nerfed to crap already. Wasn't even over powered in the first place but hey its zenimax, they just nerf stuff.

if its already nerfed and unusable, surely powerslam can sacrefice that 420 ( on the high end) in favor of +1k on standalone bash.
Gear and glyphs should be added damage, not the entire damage.
Currently Deadly Bash adds 500 to bash atks, 3x infused bash + deadlands + veiled adds 3843 thats over 7 times the original damage. At this point bashing has little to do with SnB itself when Dual Wield gets those same values when using these sets and enchant, minus the 500 from deadly bash ofcourse.
with my "fix", the value of the sets and enchant combine to 2380, while Deadly bash goes up to 1500. All of a sudden bashing has something to do with Sword and board again when gear and glyphs dont make up for 7x but less than 2x more ADDED damage

I don't see your point here. Why run DW over SnB if you can Power Bash for insane numbers?

https://youtu.be/9kPZWNa_jtw

Panachudo

Nser wrote: »

Panachudo wrote: »

snip…

Riposte is invalid since its on a 5 second cooldown, where resentment from powerslam 33% damage buff had no cooldown.
It is nerfed, the cost reduction replacement is a joke because the proper way of Powerslamming is with Shield Discipline SnB ultimate, which makes Powerslam free

Not really. 5 seconds gives options to cast other skills in a rotation. Time it with the cooldown period and recycle power slam.

Nser

My point is the entirety of Regular bash damage comes from sets and glyphs, not SnB itself. Powerslam is a different issue entirely
Regular Bash/interupt should be viable with just Sword and Board, without speccing into deadlands/veiled and 3x infused bash glyphs.

Thats why im asking for Sets and Glyph nerfs, while buffing Deadly Bash SnB passive to break even in total bash damage lost and regained so that regular bash/interupt in the Deadly Bash passive feels more impactful.

Its not a nerf or a buff to Bash on the high end, but makes SnB standalone "compete" as a viable frontbar weapon.
Still doesnt beat the extra stats and passive or execute from 2hander/dual wield, elemental staves but at least itll have a decent niche in bashweaving. 500 base damage on the Deadly Bash passive does not cut it when that results in only 200 more damage in snb vs dual wield (pvp)

Nser

Panachudo wrote: »

Nser wrote: »

Panachudo wrote: »

snip…

Riposte is invalid since its on a 5 second cooldown, where resentment from powerslam 33% damage buff had no cooldown.
It is nerfed, the cost reduction replacement is a joke because the proper way of Powerslamming is with Shield Discipline SnB ultimate, which makes Powerslam free

Not really. 5 seconds gives options to cast other skills in a rotation. Time it with the cooldown period and recycle power slam.

So having 1 attack, which doesnt have to be powerslam btw can be any direct damage afaik, get the 33% damage buff per 5 seconds is the same as hitting 5 powered up powerslams back to back to back? i didnt think so

edit
Even your light attack can take away the 33% bonus Damage from Riposte, so unless u proc riposte by block and then only powerslam, or any skill of choice, the 33% bonus damage becomes wasted on a low hitting light atk.
And before you say, just dont light attack then, what is the point? give up added 1k or so dmg from a light attack in your weave in favour of hitting 2k harder on higher tooltip spammable/ultimates, effectively reducing the damage bonus riposte provides.
Powerslam Resentment 33% bonus damage mechanic and Riposte are nowhere close compairable.
Nobody in their right mind should take Riposte, one of 4 valueble cp stars, to combat the Powerslam nerf. ZOS just wants you to believe there is a workaround.

Nser

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9_5ZcOva38

Nser

Bashweaving should be a playstyle but in reality there is only one Bash Build, the one thats goes all in with Sets and glyphs.
A buff to Deadly Bash from 500 to 1,5k opens up Sword and Board to be ran on every build, without it overpowering the more damage weapons types.

Its a shame really that so much effort went into creating a bash playstyle only for 1 build

divnyi

@Nser do we really want ppl to equip SnB on NBs with Caluurions and Deadland's Assassin and go deeped burst by adding several bashes after HA+incap?

Nser

divnyi wrote: »

@Nser do we really want ppl to equip SnB on NBs with Caluurions and Deadland's Assassin and go deeped burst by adding several bashes after HA+incap?

I might be misunderstanding, but that is already possible.
What im trying to achieve is a break even point for bash damage at the high end, where bash stays more or less the same when speccing into the whole deadlands/veiled and triple infused bash glyph, but simply equiping SnB without all that is still viable.
Not overpowered, but a valid option for a frontbar weapon. it wont have an execute, it wont have full power trait since its a 1hander, it wont have the benefits from 2h/dual wield or staves have for damage, it will just have a niche in bash weaving.

New Proposed changes to not further nerf the damage, yet still buff Deadly Bash.

Deadlands Demolisher from 930 to 630
Veiled Heritance from 516 to 316
Bash Damage glyph from 500 to 400, making infused go from 799 down to 640 (x3 jewelery)
Buff Deadly Bash Sword and Board Passive from 500 to 1500

This time the nerfs combined make a total of 980, while you get 1000 back from the Deadly Bash buff resulting in a mere 20 bash damage added BUT gives standalone Deadly Bash a place

divnyi

@Nser SnB have damage passive that gives 5% WD/SD. DW/2h is approx 300 WD stronger. 300/0.05 = 6000, if you got to 6k base damage you break even at damage bonuses. Meanwhile SnB provides considerable PvP utilities in form of cheaper and stronger block.

Yes you can do that sequence now, it will do less damage than if you buff this passive. This is just extra free damage. And it will be counterintuitive to have SnB as the best ganking weapon lmao.

Nser

divnyi wrote: »

@Nser SnB have damage passive that gives 5% WD/SD. DW/2h is approx 300 WD stronger. 300/0.05 = 6000, if you got to 6k base damage you break even at damage bonuses. Meanwhile SnB provides considerable PvP utilities in form of cheaper and stronger block.

Yes you can do that sequence now, it will do less damage than if you buff this passive. This is just extra free damage. And it will be counterintuitive to have SnB as the best ganking weapon lmao.

how is it extra damage when the buffs and nerfs combined break even on bash tooltip on the high end? its neither a buff nor a nerf but makes Deadly Bash stand alone worth something

so at 6k wpn/spell dmg SnB 5% buff gets in line with 2h/dual wield, but theres still other bonusses to damage like full power trait on 2h, two traits on dual wield etc. I get what you are saying tho, but at the same time 2hander and dual wield get their passive to sword/mace/axe/dagger, so SnB is still behind

Nser

either way Bashing weaving should be viable without having to use sets and glyphs.
Bashing should have more to do with SnB rather than gear, to make it viable for all types of builds.

to put things into perspective:

currently Deadly Bash adds 500
Gear and Glyphs combined make 3843
3843+500 gives Bash currently 4343

Updated Deadly Bash adds 1500
Gear and Glyphs combined 2866
2866 + 1500 gives Bash 4366

so at the high end the current value is 4343, while with my proposed change its 4366, which is essentially identical.
but SnB becomes more viable as a stand alone weapon if you properly bashweave. At the end of the day Bashweaving is performing an action that requires more apm, and higher apm should be rewarded