Warden's forgotten skill and hard CC problem

Oakiyo

Hi,

The nerf to artic blast is unjustified and is a massive step back where wardens are already struggling. To solves these issues and gives warden entire tool kit a viability, I think you can just rework Artic Wind and its morph and Frozen Retreat.

The main use of artic blast currently is

• To heal as a tank in pve
• To cc someone (no, you don't use it as a burst heal ...) in pvp

It's unusable as pve dps since it cost a lot, does very little damage since it last only 5 secondes and gives cc immunity to adds, so the tank can't pull them.

There is also another skill that needs some love in the warden skill kit : Frozen retreat.

So here are my suggestions :

Artic Blast changes
This skill should be usable as a PVE DPS, and a viable solution to have some ongoing protections while applying some dot pressure in PVP (like hurrican for example).
For this, I propose :

1. To remove the stun and the healing from this skill
2. Make it last 10 seconds
3. Make it gives 2000 shield damage that refresh every second
4. Your spell and physical resistances become the highest of the 2 values

It would be useful in pve to dps as it a good dot that follows you and give you some survivability without messing the pull of your tank.
It would be useful in pvp to give you some damage ticks to synergize with sets and some survivability on the course of the fight.
If the 2 defensive bonus are too strong, maybe go with one. But for a skill that needs to be recasted every 10 second and its cost, I think it's reasonable.


Polar Wind
This skill should be the tank burst heal. The heals has been nerfed way to much and the damage is irrelevant. So I propose :

1. To remove the damage it provide
2. Switch back to the previous heal value of the skill : 25% of the max health
3. Of course, this skill should continue to heal an ally

The main problem in pvp we faced when this heal was to strong was artic blast also stunned peoples. It was like a zoal on a 1 skill but also with a burst heal on it. If it only heals, it's not really a problem, especially with this value (9k tooltip for 35k health isn't problematic if you compare it to honor of the dead or resistant flesh tooltip.)


Frozen Retreat
This skill should be the stun Warden needs so much. I propose :

1. To remove it pull effect and synergy
2. To make it stun peoples in the area for 3 seconds
3. To make it deal damage in the aoe (same as streak, I think it's a standard value)
4. To limit it range to 15 meters
5. *Edit* I forgot to mention : The delay must be removed for this to be useful of course. So an instant stun.

Also, these changes doesn't require any new crazy new animations. So I suppose they doesn't require too much work to implement (maybe for the armor value becoming the highest of the 2 ?).

What do you think of these changes ?

Mr_Stach

I think the Frozen Gate Skill as a whole just needs to be scrapped. Tanks don't use it, PvPers don't use it. Keeping the skill is just pointless.

I and several other's came up with some ideas. This was one of the most recent that I made up:



I think the Numbers are a bit overtuned but this would allow a Spammable and Stun for Frost, then Arctic Blast can be more damage oriented.

ESO_Nightingale

Oakiyo wrote: »

Hi,

The nerf to artic blast is unjustified and is a massive step back where wardens are already struggling. To solves these issues and gives warden entire tool kit a viability, I think you can just rework Artic Wind and its morph and Frozen Retreat.

The main use of artic blast currently is

• To heal as a tank in pve
• To cc someone (no, you don't use it as a burst heal ...) in pvp

It's unusable as pve dps since it cost a lot, does very little damage since it last only 5 secondes and gives cc immunity to adds, so the tank can't pull them.

There is also another skill that needs some love in the warden skill kit : Frozen retreat.

So here are my suggestions :

Artic Blast changes
This skill should be usable as a PVE DPS, and a viable solution to have some ongoing protections while applying some dot pressure in PVP (like hurrican for example).
For this, I propose :

1. To remove the stun and the healing from this skill
2. Make it last 10 seconds
3. Make it gives 2000 shield damage that refresh every second
4. Your spell and physical resistances become the highest of the 2 values

It would be useful in pve to dps as it a good dot that follows you and give you some survivability without messing the pull of your tank.
It would be useful in pvp to give you some damage ticks to synergize with sets and some survivability on the course of the fight.
If the 2 defensive bonus are too strong, maybe go with one. But for a skill that needs to be recasted every 10 second and its cost, I think it's reasonable.


Polar Wind
This skill should be the tank burst heal. The heals has been nerfed way to much and the damage is irrelevant. So I propose :

1. To remove the damage it provide
2. Switch back to the previous heal value of the skill : 25% of the max health
3. Of course, this skill should continue to heal an ally

The main problem in pvp we faced when this heal was to strong was artic blast also stunned peoples. It was like a zoal on a 1 skill but also with a burst heal on it. If it only heals, it's not really a problem, especially with this value (9k tooltip for 35k health isn't problematic if you compare it to honor of the dead or resistant flesh tooltip.)


Frozen Retreat
This skill should be the stun Warden needs so much. I propose :

1. To remove it pull effect and synergy
2. To make it stun peoples in the area for 3 seconds
3. To make it deal damage in the aoe (same as streak, I think it's a standard value)
4. To limit it range to 15 meters

Also, these changes doesn't require any new crazy new animations. So I suppose they doesn't require too much work to implement (maybe for the armor value becoming the highest of the 2 ?).

What do you think of these changes ?

I don't mind these changes to be honest. Not bad.

SEINTDARKNES

I think trying to stun someone with portals will be awful maybe if the stun be like petrify (direct dmg) that will be better and i think the animation need to be shorter because it's really slow.

ESO_Nightingale

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

I think trying to stun someone with portals will be awful maybe if the stun be like petrify (direct dmg) that will be better and i think the animation need to be shorter because it's really slow.

It's not as bad as blast, but i think it's an alright temporary stun. At least for a bit.

Oakiyo

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

I think trying to stun someone with portals will be awful maybe if the stun be like petrify (direct dmg) that will be better and i think the animation need to be shorter because it's really slow.

I forgot to mention that the delay must be remove. Thank you for pointing that.

ESO_Nightingale

Oakiyo wrote: »

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

I think trying to stun someone with portals will be awful maybe if the stun be like petrify (direct dmg) that will be better and i think the animation need to be shorter because it's really slow.

I forgot to mention that the delay must be remove. Thank you for pointing that.

Would make it pretty powerful as an instant aoe ranged stun. Not sure if it would be completely balanced like that. Maybe the arming time should only be reduced a little.

Oakiyo

Streak does damage, stuns through block and dodge, tp you out of danger
Fossilize is unblockable, undodgeable, does damage, immobilize
Javelin does damage that ignore armor, has a very long range and is also unblockable and undodgeable
Nb spammable stuns, reduce armor, and does massive damage.

I don't think this change is too powerful to be honest. Maybe the range can be reduce then. At this point, I wouldn't even care if it was melee like the fighter's guild skill but with damage so it's useful. Just give us a valid CC skill ...

ESO_Nightingale

Oakiyo wrote: »

Streak does damage, stuns through block and dodge, tp you out of danger
Fossilize is unblockable, undodgeable, does damage, immobilize
Javelin does damage that ignore armor, has a very long range and is also unblockable and undodgeable
Nb spammable stuns, reduce armor, and does massive damage.

I don't think this change is too powerful to be honest. Maybe the range can be reduce then. At this point, I wouldn't even care if it was melee like the fighter's guild skill but with damage so it's useful. Just give us a valid CC skill ...

Yeah if it's range was reduced it's probably not too bad. I forgot you wrote that. Sorry. Been a long week.

sharquez

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I think the Frozen Gate Skill as a whole just needs to be scrapped. Tanks don't use it, PvPers don't use it. Keeping the skill is just pointless.

:'(

https://youtu.be/HvVOLgFNcO8

Melzo

Hahah useless skill is not so useless anymore... If this is removed, I'll just die of laughter. Hahhaah released 5 mythic one was useful and nerfed it. hahah The game is getting better and better.

MashmalloMan

sharquez wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I think the Frozen Gate Skill as a whole just needs to be scrapped. Tanks don't use it, PvPers don't use it. Keeping the skill is just pointless.

:'(

https://youtu.be/HvVOLgFNcO8

This is quite possibly the best thing I've ever seen in ESO. Bravo.

Wolfpaw

One of the bear morphs to be a charge gap closer>stun similar to WoW's beast master.

Frost damage preferred

ESO_Nightingale

Wolfpaw wrote: »

One of the bear morphs to be a charge gap closer>stun similar to WoW's beast master.

Frost damage preferred

Would the bear do it? I'm confused.

Wolfpaw

Enraged Guardian
Cast Time: 2500
Range: 22m (charge)
(Damage type can be changed, just using Wild Guardian tooltip)

Rouse a grizzly to fight by your side. The grizzly swipes at an enemy, dealing 778 Physical Damage, and sometimes swipes all enemies in front of it, dealing 3120 Physical Damage. Once summoned you can activate Guardian's Savagery for 75 Ultimate, granting the grizzly immunity from knockback and disabling effects & charging enemies for 3528 Physical Damage and stunning them for 2 seconds. Deals 100% more damage to enemies below 25% Health.


something like that @ESO_Nightingale

ESO_Nightingale

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Enraged Guardian
Cast Time: 2500
Range: 22m (charge)
(Damage type can be changed, just using Wild Guardian tooltip)

Rouse a grizzly to fight by your side. The grizzly swipes at an enemy, dealing 778 Physical Damage, and sometimes swipes all enemies in front of it, dealing 3120 Physical Damage. Once summoned you can activate Guardian's Savagery for 75 Ultimate, granting the grizzly immunity from knockback and disabling effects & charging enemies for 3528 Physical Damage and stunning them for 2 seconds. Deals 100% more damage to enemies below 25% Health.


something like that @ESO_Nightingale

it'd be much easier to have it teleport as that would allow it to be a lot more consistent. because it currently does actually run towards the enemy, however due to pathing it can often be confused or randomly interrupted making it a lot harder for it to be timed correctly and as we all know. sometimes it can't be bothered actually using the execute because of that.

Oakiyo

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Enraged Guardian
Cast Time: 2500
Range: 22m (charge)
(Damage type can be changed, just using Wild Guardian tooltip)

Rouse a grizzly to fight by your side. The grizzly swipes at an enemy, dealing 778 Physical Damage, and sometimes swipes all enemies in front of it, dealing 3120 Physical Damage. Once summoned you can activate Guardian's Savagery for 75 Ultimate, granting the grizzly immunity from knockback and disabling effects & charging enemies for 3528 Physical Damage and stunning them for 2 seconds. Deals 100% more damage to enemies below 25% Health.


something like that @ESO_Nightingale

Also, the main issue with bear in pvp is that it's targetable. It's a problem in 1v1 since its hitbox is so big and because of the ESO targeting (and don't tell me to tab the guy ...). And it's a problem in group or 1vX play since it dies all the time. Making it untargetable would make it usable in pvp I think.

However, I really would like one of the morph to be completly changed. Like an instant AOE burst that deal similar damage to crescent swipe or dawnbreaker, stun, give a buff like "increase your damage by 30% function of the target current health for 6 secondes".

Wolfpaw

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Enraged Guardian
Cast Time: 2500
Range: 22m (charge)
(Damage type can be changed, just using Wild Guardian tooltip)

Rouse a grizzly to fight by your side. The grizzly swipes at an enemy, dealing 778 Physical Damage, and sometimes swipes all enemies in front of it, dealing 3120 Physical Damage. Once summoned you can activate Guardian's Savagery for 75 Ultimate, granting the grizzly immunity from knockback and disabling effects & charging enemies for 3528 Physical Damage and stunning them for 2 seconds. Deals 100% more damage to enemies below 25% Health.


something like that @ESO_Nightingale

it'd be much easier to have it teleport as that would allow it to be a lot more consistent. because it currently does actually run towards the enemy, however due to pathing it can often be confused or randomly interrupted making it a lot harder for it to be timed correctly and as we all know. sometimes it can't be bothered actually using the execute because of that.

I didn't mean run, I shoulda used an example. I meant "charge" as in 2h skill Critical Charge or S&B Shield Charge, basically a gap closer the rides a path above terrain. Your suggestion on a teleport sounds good also, any gap closer that speeds up the bear to keep up with eso player combat speed.

Wolfpaw

Oakiyo wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Enraged Guardian
Cast Time: 2500
Range: 22m (charge)
(Damage type can be changed, just using Wild Guardian tooltip)

Rouse a grizzly to fight by your side. The grizzly swipes at an enemy, dealing 778 Physical Damage, and sometimes swipes all enemies in front of it, dealing 3120 Physical Damage. Once summoned you can activate Guardian's Savagery for 75 Ultimate, granting the grizzly immunity from knockback and disabling effects & charging enemies for 3528 Physical Damage and stunning them for 2 seconds. Deals 100% more damage to enemies below 25% Health.


something like that @ESO_Nightingale

Also, the main issue with bear in pvp is that it's targetable. It's a problem in 1v1 since its hitbox is so big and because of the ESO targeting (and don't tell me to tab the guy ...). And it's a problem in group or 1vX play since it dies all the time. Making it untargetable would make it usable in pvp I think.

However, I really would like one of the morph to be completly changed. Like an instant AOE burst that deal similar damage to crescent swipe or dawnbreaker, stun, give a buff like "increase your damage by 30% function of the target current health for 6 secondes".

Absolutely agree 100%, I much rather have all player pets untargetable. The on command aoe stun through our bear could have some great burst setups.

Aldoss

I'm going to push back hard on the non-targetable player pets idea. Pets are invaluable in PvP simply because they are targetable and create dynamic strategies.

Sorc birds are much too powerful to not be able to targeted and killed. Bears make for great meat shields.

What I don't understand with pets though are the special pets or set sourced ones and how many different rules exist for them.

Engine Guardian spawns a pet. It's targetable, has hp, but can't die, only interrupted.
Maw of the Infernal spawns a pet. It's not targetable.
Chokethorn spawns a pet. It's targetable, has hp, but can't die, only interrupted.
Necro blastbones are a pet. It's targetable, has hp, but can't die.
Necro skeletal mage/archer are a pet. It's not targetable (I think?), has no hp (I think?), and cannot die (I think?).

Player sourced pets should be the only pets that are targetable, have hp, can be healed, and can die. Set spawned pets should not operate this way. Engine Guardian is mostly used because it serves as such a great meatshield, especially when you're running from someone.

Allowing set spawned to do this is wrong. Only player sourced pets should operate in such a way.

Wolfpaw

Aldoss wrote: »

I'm going to push back hard on the non-targetable player pets idea. Pets are invaluable in PvP simply because they are targetable and create dynamic strategies.

Sorc birds are much too powerful to not be able to targeted and killed. Bears make for great meat shields.

What I don't understand with pets though are the special pets or set sourced ones and how many different rules exist for them.

Engine Guardian spawns a pet. It's targetable, has hp, but can't die, only interrupted.
Maw of the Infernal spawns a pet. It's not targetable.
Chokethorn spawns a pet. It's targetable, has hp, but can't die, only interrupted.
Necro blastbones are a pet. It's targetable, has hp, but can't die.
Necro skeletal mage/archer are a pet. It's not targetable (I think?), has no hp (I think?), and cannot die (I think?).

Player sourced pets should be the only pets that are targetable, have hp, can be healed, and can die. Set spawned pets should not operate this way. Engine Guardian is mostly used because it serves as such a great meatshield, especially when you're running from someone.

Allowing set spawned to do this is wrong. Only player sourced pets should operate in such a way.

I see what your saying, but if the Warden's bear can be killed it should pose a much greater threat as a double bar ult: speed/gap closer, on-command stun...a real threat to the enemy, not just a meat shield that applies cc immunity at random too enemy and dies outside of 1v1.

I still would prefer pets not be targeted, sets is fine though. Nothing more annoying or skill-less watching a player (sorc especially) hide behind pets taking no damage. If that's the case the pets should block both ways, incoming damage and outgoing damage.

ESO_Nightingale

Aldoss wrote: »

I'm going to push back hard on the non-targetable player pets idea. Pets are invaluable in PvP simply because they are targetable and create dynamic strategies.

Sorc birds are much too powerful to not be able to targeted and killed. Bears make for great meat shields.

What I don't understand with pets though are the special pets or set sourced ones and how many different rules exist for them.

Engine Guardian spawns a pet. It's targetable, has hp, but can't die, only interrupted.
Maw of the Infernal spawns a pet. It's not targetable.
Chokethorn spawns a pet. It's targetable, has hp, but can't die, only interrupted.
Necro blastbones are a pet. It's targetable, has hp, but can't die.
Necro skeletal mage/archer are a pet. It's not targetable (I think?), has no hp (I think?), and cannot die (I think?).

Player sourced pets should be the only pets that are targetable, have hp, can be healed, and can die. Set spawned pets should not operate this way. Engine Guardian is mostly used because it serves as such a great meatshield, especially when you're running from someone.

Allowing set spawned to do this is wrong. Only player sourced pets should operate in such a way.

If it wasn't able to be killed that'd mean it'd need to have a damage nerf at least against players. It provides constant pressure. As it's essentially a hugely powerful single target DoT.

Mr_Stach

Invincible Bear with current damage values would be pretty ridiculous

Oakiyo

Pets should be invincible in every content, and other players should be able to hide them (tanking in pve with warden or sorc dps in your group is so annoying. And if they're using maw of inferno ...).

I would much rather be hit by this "hugely powerful single target DoT" and be able to cast something reliably on its owner, especially outnumbered. But if damage from the pets is too high, especially the one that needs to be double bared (which is already a massive constraint ...), then there is battle spirit to nerf it a bit.

But right now, it is either an annoyance to say the least, or 2 useless slot you have to constantly recast to hope using before it dies within the next 2 seconds.

Mr_Stach

Yeah pets on any class with the exception of Storm Atro is gonna get deleted in PvP

Nser

What values does the Bear even have for mitigation, max health etc? Maybe if the bear copied the users stats more, it wouldnt die so much.

Mr_Stach

Nser wrote: »

What values does the Bear even have for mitigation, max health etc? Maybe if the bear copied the users stats more, it wouldnt die so much.

That's a good question back in 2019 this change was added:
"All pets will now inherit your bonuses and derived stats. This means your Critical Hit Chance, Critical Hit Multipliers, Champion Points, and other % damage or healing amplifications will be applied to any pet you summon."

But I think this is directly attached to Damage, not health or Resistances as far as I can tell.

ESO_Nightingale

Getting back on topic. Patch day is tomorrow and I'd love to expect changes but i shouldn't be so naive. Blast is probably going live in it's genuinely useless state.

Mr_Stach

Update: Nothing happened and it will still probably go Live. Or Zos might address things next week, but I highly HIGHLY Doubt it.

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Update: Nothing happened and it will still probably go Live. Or Zos might address things next week, but I highly HIGHLY Doubt it.

this post should just be renamed to "warden is forgotten" fullstop. every other issue this patch has been at least looked at but not us ay, feeling the love. we're not even worth a comment.