Oaken Souls dead on arrival

Commandment

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I think if they gave Oakensoul Major Brutality and maybe even Minor Berserk it'll be perfectly fine. I'd prefer if ZOS could make up their mind about who the target audience for this (or any) mythic is.
Before the change it was clearly designed for Werewolves. Now it looks like it's designed for Templars because Brutality/Sorcery comes from their spammable and they get to drop a bunch of skills from their bars thanks to the named effects it provides.
To me the item now looks like it tries to be a PvP-oriented build simplifier and if that's the case then they should totally just slap all the relevant passives on it, like Major Brutality/Sorcery. You'll still have to slot some utility spells on your reduced bar because Evasion, gap closers and cc still need to take up slots.

At least Shapeshifter's chain now helps Werewolf sustain, which is neat.

Throw away the 1 bar build, its more like the 1 button build now

*Jabs while intensely breathing heavily*

xaraan

This really did kind of kill the set for me. Most of those buffs are stuff you'll already have with a two bar set up or could easily have if you wanted them (especially if you aren't running alone), so you really gain nothing from being forced into a one bar build for what you lose (i.e. giving up being able to run a mythic, 2 pc undaunted and 2 5 pc sets for several build options).

edit: if WW was the only problem, the easier way to solve that would have been to not have it work on anything that doesn't have a second bar to sacrifice.

Commandment

xaraan wrote: »

This really did kind of kill the set for me. Most of those buffs are stuff you'll already have with a two bar set up or could easily have if you wanted them (especially if you aren't running alone), so you really gain nothing from being forced into a one bar build for what you lose (i.e. giving up being able to run a mythic, 2 pc undaunted and 2 5 pc sets for several build options).

edit: if WW was the only problem, the easier way to solve that would have been to not have it work on anything that doesn't have a second bar to sacrifice.

Or reduce/not effective under werewolf transformation.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Commandment wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Actually I think these changes were just about perfect. People were one barring builds that were out performing two bar builds. When the floor is above the ceiling, your house has collapsed.

People are still going to be able to parse in the 100k range with this with one bar, which is frankly absurd. You wont need to waste bar slots on things like inner light or your armor buff. You wont need to worry about regen. You don't need to grind arena weapons unless you want to front bar them. Only buff you need to keep in mind is major Sorcery or Brutality, which can easily be obtained via a DK tank, gear sets, potions, or skills.

It was OP in its first attempt. This change/solution hits the nail firmly on the head. This set is there to help people that struggle with bar swapping, not to make you capable of out parsing someone that can effectively play both bars. If you are someone that can parse 100k+ currently with a 2 bar build, this set just wasn't meant for you, and that is okay.

To everyone their own.

But the statement with "The floor above the ceiling" didn't really make sense, that would mean every single player in the game is breaking these damage caps when in truth it isnt. This item simply adds a new variety of plays to the game.

I don't see the reason a person pulling high dps would get upset with another person pulling similar dps, that really doesnt make sense. People already complain about people not pulling enough DPS, now we have people complaining someone is pulling the same DPS? This doesn't seem productive imo

Having 1 bar, excludes you from 5 extra slots, and a situational ult for certain circumstances. Thats huge. Some people struggle with wishing they had more slots for utility skills that arent buffs.

In this case, "Nailing it on the head" is pretty accurate, as they put the final nail on the coffin making it straight up irrelevant

Take a class like Necro. The rotation I use while static, takes approximately 28 bar swaps a minute. It is difficult, but rewarding. At my skill level (on the high end, but not record breaking), I get about 120k on a dummy. If someone can come along and do 125k with one bar and no swaps, thats a problem (people were parsing 130k+ with this before the change). It discourages skilled gameplay. That is what I mean by the floor being above the ceiling. Removing the need to bar swap significantly simplifies a rotation and wildly lowers the skill threshold.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I think if they gave Oakensoul Major Brutality and maybe even Minor Berserk it'll be perfectly fine. I'd prefer if ZOS could make up their mind about who the target audience for this (or any) mythic is.
Before the change it was clearly designed for Werewolves. Now it looks like it's designed for Templars because Brutality/Sorcery comes from their spammable and they get to drop a bunch of skills from their bars thanks to the named effects it provides.
To me the item now looks like it tries to be a PvP-oriented build simplifier and if that's the case then they should totally just slap all the relevant passives on it, like Major Brutality/Sorcery. You'll still have to slot some utility spells on your reduced bar because Evasion, gap closers and cc still need to take up slots.

At least Shapeshifter's chain now helps Werewolf sustain, which is neat.

I think that is where we disagree. Now of course, only ZOS really knows what the purpose was for. I think this set was designed to raise the floor for people that struggle to bar swap, but of course, it became apparent that it was way too powerful for werewolves (the PTS notes seem to suggest that) on their first pass. They don't want werewolves being the highest parses in PVE, and frankly, for good reason. Viable yes, but not Meta.

Templars have always been one of the easiest rotations, and have mostly been a jabs spam for a while. Nothing really changes in that department. Every class save necro has pretty easy access to major Sorc/Brutality this with class skills, Mag players all have Degen (stam can use it too now just fine), DW, Bow, 2H also have access to major Brutality. A DK can give it to a whole group, etc. Adding Major Sorcery/Brutality and minor Berzerk would probably be OP. Minor Berzerk is easy to get from a healer or a DPS running Kinra's anyways.

Tommy_The_Gun

Tbh. I really don't understand ZOS argument here. Just because one spec synergises best with a gear set, does it mean that a gear set should be nerfed to oblivion ? WW is able to mitigate the penalty to some degree, but it is not like they can ignore the penalty with 100% uptime (News Flash - WW is in human for for the majority of the time).

So, just because one class has a build-in drawback of having just one bar, then a gear set that has same drawback is getting nerfed.

Should we nerf Ironblood because Sorc has best mobility & streak ? Or maybe we should nerf Gaze of Sithis because a build using it may mitigate the block penalty by not blocking and using dmg shields or roll dodge instead ? Or maybe we should nerf Elf Bane because DKs exists and they may use it... Or maybe, we should prohibit certain classes from using sets that fit best for them ?

^ Kinda um... flawed logic imho.

It would be definitely easier to digest if WW was actually A or S tier class and it would be used very often. But, the problem is that it is not. It is a niche spec. For PvE. And PvP. It has a lot of critical drawbacks that keep WW into "less competitive" or niche / underperforming segment (C or D tier ?). I mean, devs kinda seem to be out of touch here (so nothing new I guess ).

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416461/class-rep-werewolf-feedback-thread
This is an official Werewolf Feedback Thread. Notice how the last post is from 2020. Almost 2 years ago. It means only one thing - that very little people actually use WW compared to other specs. And those who use it are not vocal enough, or they just play the game casually and they don't use forums at all.

How is ZOS suppose to know if a spec is good or not if it is so niche ? I mean where do they gather data from ? It is easy to blame some one who is not vocal enough. You say WWs are OP, but WW players will stay quiet... it is kinda like a propaganda & monologue discussion.

I mean it seem to me (I might be wrong) that a lot of players who posted feedback regarding Oakensoul & WW actually never played as WW on live server.

Anyway... those are just pixels. No reason to lose mind over it. But still... It hurts when delusional feedback is taken into account... (yes, I know, it is forums and every one is free to express their opinion).

buttaface

Junk now. Add to the giant pile of overnerfed and not fixed for years items in this game. No one rational would give up their whole back bar AND a different mythic for this other than for funzie.

Defenders of this are forgetting that you have two material opportunity costs with this item, not just the back bar, but sacrificing 2 bar capable mythics also.

So pro parsers, a teensy percentage of the player base, could outdamage their prior pro parses by trivial amounts? AND? Exactly HOW does that affect the vast majority of ESO players who didn't major in "Trial Dummy?" What percentage of the player base in their game do they think will ever do "homework" or practice with a metronome in a video game? Did this item push 60k parsers to 100k? No, nothing remotely like that.

Curiously, the WW nerf-herders somehow omitted that WW has: NO weapon passives in form. NO ult in form, NO CC break in form, exactly ONE build that can be modified by morphs in minor ways, heals MUCH more expensive than other healing, NO arena weapons, and probably other drawbacks/tradeoffs I'm forgetting... but I guess they just "forgot" those. There is a reason why WW is not favored or optimal in any content other than roleplay currently in ESO. It goes back to changes to light attacks making WW sluggish. I hardly play mine and wager there are thousands if not tens of thousands in this boat.

Should have simply cut the stats in an incremental way and reserved the right to modify after it goes live, something they've done in the past. But Nope, had to go straight to the junk pile before it even hit live. Eh, silver lining is one more grind to not grind.

Jack-0

Faltasë wrote: »

...the elitists with 2 bar builds...

It's really quite amazing when you can be considered an elitist for using two whole bars of abilities, as per the game's design.

I wasn't very enthusiastic about the ring anyway, now even less so. Maybe it should've been excluded from PVP (since we know they can enable/disable sets in Cyrodiil etc) as that seems to be the major source of concern about it in its original form.

imno007b14_ESO

And no one who's played the game for any length of time is at all surprised. I've been saying since I saw it introduced that by the time High Isles went live, or soon after, they would nerf it to the point of it going from an item that most everyone would at least want to try to an item that almost no one would bother putting in the effort to acquire. Too predictable.

Jaimeh

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

People are still going to be able to parse in the 100k range with this with one bar, which is frankly absurd. You wont need to waste bar slots on things like inner light or your armor buff. You wont need to worry about regen. You don't need to grind arena weapons unless you want to front bar them. Only buff you need to keep in mind is major Sorcery or Brutality, which can easily be obtained via a DK tank, gear sets, potions, or skills.

It was OP in its first attempt. This change/solution hits the nail firmly on the head. This set is there to help people that struggle with bar swapping, not to make you capable of out parsing someone that can effectively play both bars. If you are someone that can parse 100k+ currently with a 2 bar build, this set just wasn't meant for you, and that is okay. This set is an attempt to raise the floor.

This ^ I think now it has a better balance in the game, nicely suited for solo-play, and for more optimized group-play there's still effective one-bar builds out there already.

Commandment

Jaimeh wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

People are still going to be able to parse in the 100k range with this with one bar, which is frankly absurd. You wont need to waste bar slots on things like inner light or your armor buff. You wont need to worry about regen. You don't need to grind arena weapons unless you want to front bar them. Only buff you need to keep in mind is major Sorcery or Brutality, which can easily be obtained via a DK tank, gear sets, potions, or skills.

It was OP in its first attempt. This change/solution hits the nail firmly on the head. This set is there to help people that struggle with bar swapping, not to make you capable of out parsing someone that can effectively play both bars. If you are someone that can parse 100k+ currently with a 2 bar build, this set just wasn't meant for you, and that is okay. This set is an attempt to raise the floor.

This ^ I think now it has a better balance in the game, nicely suited for solo-play, and for more optimized group-play there's still effective one-bar builds out there already.

I don't see a problem in PVE if you can help improve lower skilled players. Even if that is the case, a lot of players still wont reach 100k, and stay around the 20k range. Thats what all the "Lowering the ceiling talk" eso has been talking about. Does it upset you that someone can assist you better?

In the end of the day, people seem to be more worried about ego of saying "I can't play 2 bars" you shouldnt be able to compete with me.

In a PVP stand point, your going to out do a person with 1 bar with most likely 1-2 attacks, while a person with 5 extra slots and a ultimate or dawnbreaker to murder ww's is sitting in the back going to be giggling at spam single attacks.

Then if your talking about a group fight pvp which most pvp content is in, you pretty much have 1 useless guy with 1 bar while everyone else is sharing buffs.

Zezin

Commandment wrote: »

Mythgard1967 wrote: »

I would imagine its still being tuned so that is likely not the last change that will hit it???

I am totally of mixed emotions on this set...

On the one hand......I have very damaged hands. Missing fingers, reattached fingers with no feeling, other nerve damage. One bar builds are totally doable for me....more so than swapping bars. And i have spent a year trying to get gud at bar swapping.

So I see this set and I think

....OMGERSH, I could probably be viable in some of the content I avoid right now so as not to weigh others down!

and then i think.....

but i have spent a lot of time training my hands to swap bars and light attack weave with their limitations! Don't get lazy and keep challenging your hands (to be clear....I am pretty sure doing this has done more for their usability than physical therapy has....and also knitting....knitting has been great for the hands too)

Except for when you get Carpel Tunnel leading you back to the Physical Therapist XD. I dunno I feel this was gonna be a good unique item for players who aren't good at weaving (I already mastered it) But it would be nice to see 1 bars, compete with 2 bars as they both have difficulities. 1 you have less skills to use, 1 you have way more skills and a back up ulti.

it's also going to be even better for people who ARE good at weaving, this mythic won't be as much help for "bridging the gap" so to speak it will be just another tool end game players will use in some situations while ignoring it in others.
TLDR: sure it will raise the floor but also the ceiling, good luck catching up!

PS: A controller might help you if you have Carpel Tunnel, some friends that have it use them and it makes it easier on their hands.

Zezin

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I think if they gave Oakensoul Major Brutality and maybe even Minor Berserk it'll be perfectly fine. I'd prefer if ZOS could make up their mind about who the target audience for this (or any) mythic is.
Before the change it was clearly designed for Werewolves. Now it looks like it's designed for Templars because Brutality/Sorcery comes from their spammable and they get to drop a bunch of skills from their bars thanks to the named effects it provides.
To me the item now looks like it tries to be a PvP-oriented build simplifier and if that's the case then they should totally just slap all the relevant passives on it, like Major Brutality/Sorcery. You'll still have to slot some utility spells on your reduced bar because Evasion, gap closers and cc still need to take up slots.

At least Shapeshifter's chain now helps Werewolf sustain, which is neat.

to me it feels like it's targeted at people who run in unorganized groups like pugs where you often won't have access to some buffs, I wouldn't mind seeing something like minor force added to it but more than that and it would be overkill.

Firey_Hellhound

Just roll it back to original PST go live version, the second version, but add limitations like: In WW form the stats are reduced to 40% (or whatever is deemed the 'right' amount to keep it balanced in PvE) and for anyone in PVP areas reduce the stats by 50% (or whatever is considered the 'right' amount). If you are a WW in PvP those multiply. ie reduce the stats to only 20% on those examples. Or even more simple, it just doesn't work on a WW or in a PVP area.

Anyone in PvE who can parse at 90%ish of their normal 100k+ wont use it anyway since its still a reduction in DPS.

The only players that benefit fully are those I think it was intended to benefit. It also adds another option to using the Ring of the Pale Order for solo play for most players too. Play the way you want and all that?

To leave it as it is now seems pretty pointless in a normal group.

Commandment

Zezin wrote: »

Commandment wrote: »

Mythgard1967 wrote: »

I would imagine its still being tuned so that is likely not the last change that will hit it???

I am totally of mixed emotions on this set...

On the one hand......I have very damaged hands. Missing fingers, reattached fingers with no feeling, other nerve damage. One bar builds are totally doable for me....more so than swapping bars. And i have spent a year trying to get gud at bar swapping.

So I see this set and I think

....OMGERSH, I could probably be viable in some of the content I avoid right now so as not to weigh others down!

and then i think.....

but i have spent a lot of time training my hands to swap bars and light attack weave with their limitations! Don't get lazy and keep challenging your hands (to be clear....I am pretty sure doing this has done more for their usability than physical therapy has....and also knitting....knitting has been great for the hands too)

Except for when you get Carpel Tunnel leading you back to the Physical Therapist XD. I dunno I feel this was gonna be a good unique item for players who aren't good at weaving (I already mastered it) But it would be nice to see 1 bars, compete with 2 bars as they both have difficulities. 1 you have less skills to use, 1 you have way more skills and a back up ulti.

it's also going to be even better for people who ARE good at weaving, this mythic won't be as much help for "bridging the gap" so to speak it will be just another tool end game players will use in some situations while ignoring it in others.
TLDR: sure it will raise the floor but also the ceiling, good luck catching up!

PS: A controller might help you if you have Carpel Tunnel, some friends that have it use them and it makes it easier on their hands.

All motions of the the fingers and wrist contribute to carpal tunnel, its a over use syndrome. >.> I may have a degree in such topic XD. But true a wider grip can help relieve it. But they do have support for keyboard and mouse. Stretching and other exercises and rest it what helps.

IMO it will help bridge the gap for some players, and the pro players will always be at the ceiling, theres nothing wrong with that. People always be at their respective levels, until one decides to push forward and stop looking at reasons everything else is bad.

MudcrabAttack

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Actually I think these changes were just about perfect. People were one barring builds that were out performing two bar builds. When the floor is above the ceiling, your house has collapsed.

People are still going to be able to parse in the 100k range with this with one bar, which is frankly absurd. You wont need to waste bar slots on things like inner light or your armor buff. You wont need to worry about regen. You don't need to grind arena weapons unless you want to front bar them. Only buff you need to keep in mind is major Sorcery or Brutality, which can easily be obtained via a DK tank, gear sets, potions, or skills.

It was OP in its first attempt. This change/solution hits the nail firmly on the head. This set is there to help people that struggle with bar swapping, not to make you capable of out parsing someone that can effectively play both bars. If you are someone that can parse 100k+ currently with a 2 bar build, this set just wasn't meant for you, and that is okay. This set is an attempt to raise the floor.

But which single bar build was outperforming dual bar? I saw a 1-bar sorc parse in the lower 130’s because they prebuffed with overload on the back bar, then swapped bars and slotted the ring and used the front-bar crystal weapon skill, which makes a front bar deal proportionately way more dps than all the other classes. It makes no sense to compare that sorc parse to anything if you ask me. The same player also hit a higher 130s with a dual bar setup.

I tested it myself and found that the old Oakensoul ring buffs a 1-bar build with 12% more damage than the kilt. That 134k 1-bar parse would be 120k if they did all the same steps, had the lucky crits and swapped to the kilt. Still more damage than Templar with 2 bars

Now it’s probably adding less to 1-bar builds than Mora’s whispers, and much less than Kilt, Sea Serpent’s Coil and thrassian, assuming all the major buffs were already covered

Nomadic_Atmoran

They'll buff it again before release. I seriously doubt they want these mythics and sets to be useless since they are a major selling point for players that chase the meta. Now that they know whats too much and whats too little for the set theyll find something still on the OP side of things so they can still sell this to the players that buy these updates for this sort of thing.

Commandment

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

They'll buff it again before release. I seriously doubt they want these mythics and sets to be useless since they are a major selling point for players that chase the meta. Now that they know whats too much and whats too little for the set theyll find something still on the OP side of things so they can still sell this to the players that buy these updates for this sort of thing.

I seriously doubt they would change it after this, kinda gives me the vibes where they took playing with friends in a mmo out of the game for a while, im talking about the year of no bg with friends and family.