Crystal Weapon change

Matherios

Hello there i was just curious as to how they didn't nerf crystal weapons damage , like you increase it's cost hoping that somehow it will reduce the damage people do with this skill (spammable) so it's more balanced compared to other spammables in the game but you forget about the fact that people already sit around 80-90% resources all the time so in the end it won't affect anything....
Just reduce it's damage and it will be in a good state the skill while providing some penetration to the group.
From my pov the skill should do less damage than frags (not much less just a little less) but also provide the penetration to the group and the user won't lose much of his/her dps using crystal weapons compared to other spammables.

MashmalloMan

Or how about we leave it as is... This is the first unique thing about the skill since it's inception as it was a quick copy/paste job of Crushing/Ele Weapon. The fix to shock heavies was the biggest problem the skill posed.

Not sure why you'd want to nerf the damage when it's comparable to every other direct damage instant spammable in the game.. Plus -4% damage because it doesn't increase in damage as it levels, it just increases the pen from 700 to 1000.

Eg. Surprise Attack gets 4% as it levels and procs Sundered every hit which is an additional tick of damage, while being much easier to use.

Damage is an odd topic of discussion when skills like Jabs and Whip exist. Neither of which have increased cost to offset how OP they are. Molten Whip not only gives increased spell/weapon damage, but also has way more burst by being able to increase its damage done by 100%. Both skills reduce oponents movement speed as well.

Is this just a complaint because Crystal Shards isn't the go to dummy parsing DPS skill now for Sorcs? I'm sorry, that is an awful reason for a nerf.

These changes make it closer to the power of Jabs/Whip. I say it's time to bring up the power of Necro, Warden and MagBlades spammables instead. All of which no one likes.

Tannus15

need to test it out to see.

it really comes down to how hard it is to sustain. bluntly put i don't like this change, but i honestly can't think of a change to crystal weapon in it's PTS form I would like apart from maybe removing the 10% cost reduction on your next cast.

50% is probably too much.
there is no doubt a spreadsheet somewhere where someone has calculated "on average, per rotation a sorc will do 4 spammables, weaved with other skills this means they will effectively get 6 hits with crystal weapon therefore a 50% cost increase makes sense"

however that's not how things work in content. the question will be "is this skill usable or am i out of stamina constantly". if it's useable then the nerf has little to no impact. if i'm out of stamina constantly then it's a bad skill.

this is why it's a bad change. it's a binary nerf where the skill is either unusable or unaffected.

Dagoth_Rac

I still don't like the double proc effect of this skill. So you have to activate it every other skill? It is just weird and awkward. Not quite a spammable, not quite a DoT or buff. A sort of clunky middle ground.

PvP_Exploiter

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

I still don't like the double proc effect of this skill. So you have to activate it every other skill? It is just weird and awkward. Not quite a spammable, not quite a DoT or buff. A sort of clunky middle ground.

Makes it slight more interesting.
Reminds me of Maelstrom DW meta when you cast Flurry every second skill
Not dissimilar to Necros either casting Blastbones - 2 skills - Blastbones.

Matherios

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Or how about we leave it as is... This is the first unique thing about the skill since it's inception as it was a quick copy/paste job of Crushing/Ele Weapon. The fix to shock heavies was the biggest problem the skill posed.

Not sure why you'd want to nerf the damage when it's comparable to every other direct damage instant spammable in the game.. Plus -4% damage because it doesn't increase in damage as it levels, it just increases the pen from 700 to 1000.

Eg. Surprise Attack gets 4% as it levels and procs Sundered every hit which is an additional tick of damage, while being much easier to use.

Damage is an odd topic of discussion when skills like Jabs and Whip exist. Neither of which have increased cost to offset how OP they are. Molten Whip not only gives increased spell/weapon damage, but also has way more burst by being able to increase its damage done by 100%. Both skills reduce oponents movement speed as well.

Is this just a complaint because Crystal Shards isn't the go to dummy parsing DPS skill now for Sorcs? I'm sorry, that is an awful reason for a nerf.

These changes make it closer to the power of Jabs/Whip. I say it's time to bring up the power of Necro, Warden and MagBlades spammables instead. All of which no one likes.

I doubt they wanted to make a morph that does more damage compared to other one while also providing a good buff to the group.
Also it's not comparable to every other direct damage instant spammables.. dunno where u saw this.
Templars are a really weak class compared to other ones and whip itself isn't that broken as you might think , other stuff make dk strong and not whip...
As for buffing other classes you are partially right but thats one way of seeing it.

JerBearESO

i was most of all looking forward to the original crystal wep change for my heavy attack build, now its a straight up hard nerf making my build need more stam sustain..... meanwhile it is STILL broken for light attack builds. it allows ability weaving to increase overall power exactly as much as it was going to increase a channeled heavy attack build.

why not just reduce the damage 20% or so and call it good, but not this mess.... now i literally dont have a spammable at nearly 4k a pop and need to uncomfortably weave instead of "playing my way" yet again, for the 32984965 time

Glantir

So will be double light attack a thing?

There are not many skills you could cast between if you dont have to refresh dots during the Crystal Weapon uptime or am i wrong?

Very confusing....

Talonlord

Glantir wrote: »

So will be double light attack a thing?

There are not many skills you could cast between if you dont have to refresh dots during the Crystal Weapon uptime or am i wrong?

Very confusing....

I imagine rotations will end up along the lines of CW, 1 other skill, CW , 1 other skill, CW, 1 other skill, etc.

Wardens and especially Necros have shown that it's doable to have an entire rotation where you never cast the same spell twice in a row, so I suspect stamsorcs will follow that example. They could even combine it with Bound Armaments which can be recast every 4th spell. So then it'd be "CW, DoT 1, CW, BA, CW, DoT 2, CW, BA" for example.

Even if you don't really have any DoT's to refresh I think you'd be better of just refreshing one early compared to doing double light attack.

I must say the Crystal Weapon changes intrigue, but also worry me. Because I'm not a fan of Necros centering their entire rotation on weaving Blastbones on every 3rd cast, and I felt the same about Wardens with Scorch (though they're moved to every 6 casts), so giving Sorcs a build defining skill you should use on every 2nd cast has me worried. I suppose the increased cost at least limits it to stamsorcs as magsorcs likely can't sustain it.

divnyi

Anyone tried to test with DW medium or heavy attack? There should be 2 hits. Wonder if it procs both.

Glantir

Its sad that you couldnt play with Crystal Weapon and Fragments

Would be nice if they change Mages Wrath/Endless Fury or the Mines into another Spamskill option....

I know there are some niche builds that are using the mines as spamable but i really dont like it. And i have no idea if such builds can compete in dps....

FeedbackOnly

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

I still don't like the double proc effect of this skill. So you have to activate it every other skill? It is just weird and awkward. Not quite a spammable, not quite a DoT or buff. A sort of clunky middle ground.

The duration is 6 secs which should be like 8 with sorc passive. Plenty of time

Talonlord

divnyi wrote: »

Anyone tried to test with DW medium or heavy attack? There should be 2 hits. Wonder if it procs both.

I tried this during the first week of PTS and it didn't work. They did mention it would have a short cooldown between procs to prevent instant bursts, so I suppose that's what they meant. In fact with that initial statement it surprised me lightning/resto heavies worked until now.

divnyi

Talonlord wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Anyone tried to test with DW medium or heavy attack? There should be 2 hits. Wonder if it procs both.

I tried this during the first week of PTS and it didn't work. They did mention it would have a short cooldown between procs to prevent instant bursts, so I suppose that's what they meant. In fact with that initial statement it surprised me lightning/resto heavies worked until now.

TY for testing.
Well lightning and resto ticks are considered DOT damage up until the last hit.
That's why I was asking on how specifically they implemented that.

MudcrabAttack

I’m just not looking forward to seeing a bunch of flappy birds in every trial and dungeon all because a parse exists that deals 5-10% 5-20% more damage than everything else.

WrathOfInnos

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

I’m just not looking forward to seeing a bunch of flappy birds in every trial and dungeon all because a parse exists that deals 5-10% 5-20% more damage than everything else.

I'd take that over a sea of dragonknight standards. Between the flags and the rocks I can't see anything with the current meta.

Matherios

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

I’m just not looking forward to seeing a bunch of flappy birds in every trial and dungeon all because a parse exists that deals 5-10% 5-20% more damage than everything else.

I'd take that over a sea of dragonknight standards. Between the flags and the rocks I can't see anything with the current meta.

Are the two of you playing on first person cause i don't have such an issue with my view . Plus not to mention that this conversation is purely related to single target fights (where sorc is the strongest) and not cleave fights were obviously dk or necro or warden will beat a sorc.

Matherios

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

I’m just not looking forward to seeing a bunch of flappy birds in every trial and dungeon all because a parse exists that deals 5-10% 5-20% more damage than everything else.

If something does more damage than another class cause they have something that makes them better than another class i find it logical to comment on it and try to make stuff more balance for the other classes too . I don't see your pov on this subject relevant with this goal. Also i don't know why you are so stucked with the word parse , parses are just there so you can compare stuff as it gives you a good idea of where something is sitting at either that's a set or a skills damage. Plus no not everybody will run sorcs as you might be imagining it... If a trial has more cleave fights than single target fights people will still go (or should prefer to go) dk,warden,necro than a sorc.

athena9205

why not remove the 2 proc bonus and make it a straight 10 sec buff with increased magica to cast. Make it similar to the DK Heavy attack buff Molten Armaments
ESO-Hub.com
Target: Area
Cost: 4320
Skill description
Charge you and your grouped allies' weapons with volcanic power to gain Major Brutality and Sorcery, increasing your Weapon and Spell Damage by 20% for 30 seconds. Your own damage with Heavy Attacks is increased by 50% while active.
and the templars Solar Barrage
ESO-Hub.com
Target: Area
Cost: 2700
Skill description
Conjure solar energy to blast enemies around you, dealing 575 Magic Damage every 2 seconds for 8 seconds. While this ability is active you gain Empower, increasing the damage of your Light and Heavy Attacks by 40%.

Make the 1000 armor debuff happen on only the first target hit with the crystal weapon buff and remove the 10% thing
Like this:

Crystal Weapon
(modified)
Target: Self
Cost: 4295
Skill description
Encase your weapon in dark crystals for 10 seconds, causing your Light or Heavy Attacks to deal an additional 2323 Physical Damage and reducing the first target's Armor by 1000 for 8 seconds.

(hidden) damage procs off Light attack or off the final pulse of Heavy attack rather than every pulse, debuff procs off of first damage of Light attack or heavy attack pulse

Dracane

As much as I hate crystal fragments becoming pretty much obsolete because of this, it might finally be a slight buff for Sorc pve dps (hopefully for magicka too) and I can think of 10 adaptions this has in pvp, too.

Sorcerer finally has a rather unique spammable and cost increase was the right way. I have no illusion that this will all get nerfed with the next major update though because it will get abused to Oblivion and back in pvp.
Though like @MashmalloMan said, Whip and Jabs exist. So why actually not?

MashmalloMan

Matherios wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Or how about we leave it as is... This is the first unique thing about the skill since it's inception as it was a quick copy/paste job of Crushing/Ele Weapon. The fix to shock heavies was the biggest problem the skill posed.

Not sure why you'd want to nerf the damage when it's comparable to every other direct damage instant spammable in the game.. Plus -4% damage because it doesn't increase in damage as it levels, it just increases the pen from 700 to 1000.

Eg. Surprise Attack gets 4% as it levels and procs Sundered every hit which is an additional tick of damage, while being much easier to use.

Damage is an odd topic of discussion when skills like Jabs and Whip exist. Neither of which have increased cost to offset how OP they are. Molten Whip not only gives increased spell/weapon damage, but also has way more burst by being able to increase its damage done by 100%. Both skills reduce oponents movement speed as well.

Is this just a complaint because Crystal Shards isn't the go to dummy parsing DPS skill now for Sorcs? I'm sorry, that is an awful reason for a nerf.

These changes make it closer to the power of Jabs/Whip. I say it's time to bring up the power of Necro, Warden and MagBlades spammables instead. All of which no one likes.

I doubt they wanted to make a morph that does more damage compared to other one while also providing a good buff to the group.
Also it's not comparable to every other direct damage instant spammables.. dunno where u saw this.
Templars are a really weak class compared to other ones and whip itself isn't that broken as you might think , other stuff make dk strong and not whip...
As for buffing other classes you are partially right but thats one way of seeing it.

Damage and DPS do not mean the same thing. PVEers tend to mix them up.

When I say damage, I'm refering to the tooltip damage value, it does the same damage as other instant spammables. In fact, it does a little less damage than Crystal Shard before instant Frags. Killing the damage of the skill like you suggest just so PVE players can match 2 morphs DPS factor is a silly argument that doesn't look at the bigger picture. Frankly chasing DPS as a metric for balancing morphs is also a bad direction when DPS only cares about an arbitrary average number over the course of wacking 1 target for 3 minutes straight.

As I said, buff the other class spammables that are falling behind. Whip, Jab and CW are in a good place. I'd change a little bit to Crystal Frag, giving it more upfront damage to account for its cast time which would help with this DPS debate, but it's definitely up there as a great spammable. It always has been.

Necro Skulls, Warden Cliff Racer, NB Concealed Weapon and Templars Dark Flare are all B tier skills and should be adjusted to meet the level of the currently great Class Spammables mentioned. That not only includes looking at DPS, but damage, CC, usability and fun factor.

Stam Cliff Racer may be strong on a DPS parse, but it's a bad design based on off-balance and the Cliff Racer has an insane travel time. Mag is irrelivant and just bad.

Hescrow

Still difficult to trigger with melee weapons. Not fan to use bow like any other because méta pvp wants to.

chongguang

This skill wil really bring sorcerer to the meta for both PVE and pvp , though wont be as op as dks in Live server. Many people believe more and more good team will take sorcerer. Are we right or wrong? Time will tell soon

Wellsley

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/605721/sorcerer-spammable/p1?new=1