Where the heck is the Dragonknight Nerf?

Urzigurumash

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

By this point i have played this game long enough to know who mains what. So here 's what I feel about this thread.

I want to go back to meta hopping my old stamden, stamcro or particularly stamblade which have been OP since god knows how long.

ZOS already nerfed magplar and magden so there's a bunch of magicka classes back into the bin.

Now let's try to nerf the last mag class which can actually rival me because we all know mag is supposed to be free AP in PVP. Else how can I upload my amazing 1vx videos?

The bias in this PVP community is so unreal which is why we can never have nice things

Go on? You're saying MagDK only seems to need nerfs because it now rivals StamDen and StamCro in power, or what? I think MagDK is quite a bit stronger than StamDen or StamCro and StamDK roughly on par with the two.

Stam was quite a bit stronger than mag except the last few months for however long I have played this game.

In general maybe, but not for DK, Sorc, Templar. Not now, not ever, really. (maybe StamSorc was stronger than MagSorc circa a year ago at peak Frenzied Momentum and maybe even now, I'm not quite sure - but circa 2017/2018 on my server MagSorc was regarded as the best PvP class and StamSorc the worst, outside of IC where it's always been 2nd best after StamBlade)

Probably StamDK was stronger than MagDK outside of dueling for most of 2020 and 2021, but sDK was so outclassed by StamDen and StamCro that nobody noticed. Now obviously there's not much comparison between the two, MagDK is widely regarded as S+. 2015 through 2018 MagDK was way ahead of StamDK. Things started to change around 2018, to my memory that was when Stam started to gain a big edge over Mag. I didn't play before 2015 but obviously 2014 MagDK is legendary.

I do remember heavy armor on some stamina specs and certain proc sets on stamblade which were broken even before that. Stamblade was widely regarded as the best solo PVP class back then. It still is but the newer players aren't really good enough to realize its potential

They're the worst class in Vet BGs though, like by far. MagDen is far superior to StamBlade in Vet BGs. (on Xbox NA)

So that's why I tend to leave StamNB out of balance discussions in general, they're extremely strong in their niche, but not at all outside of it. Sap Essence spam might not be as strong as in years past but it still gives MagNB something to do in BGs / large scale Cyro that StamNB just can't do as well as them or any other Stam class.

Yes there were broken stam builds before 2018 for sure but I'm sorry, MagSorc retains title to the all time most broken build ever in PvP, the PetSorc, more broken than MagDK is now - but quite literally broken, like malfunctional. (for those of us who never saw the 2014 BatSwarm anyhow). I'm all for Sorc Pets getting some buffs now though.

GetAgrippa

olsborg wrote: »

Yea, nothing has been this op compared to anything else since 2014 batswarm-days, and back then those were best on dk too, unrelated, but atm dk combustion passive paired with charged, corrosive and molten whip + their selfheals are insane OP.

I think DK needs nerfs for sure... But nothing has been this overpowered in the last 8 years? Nothing?

Not wolves with Torugs Pact and oblivion enchants that proc off of single target dots? Not bashcros upon their introduction? Not magsorcs with an unblockable, undodgeable ranged stun in Rune Cage? Not stamsorcs when they could stack Crystal Weapon, Frenzied Momentum, Deadlands Assassin and Dawnbreaker in one cool down? Dks need nerfs no doubt but this is hardly the most broken thing in the last 8 years.

WeylandLabs

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

All I know is they gave DK's and Templars the same unique characteristics as stam sorcs in there ability to be able to heal really good while throwing out damage.

What I see is a lot of homogenization and bias in classes. Kind of sucks for vetted players with a creative aptitude towards theory crafting.

Well just a year ago StamSorc was much stronger than StamDK or StamPlar, I don't know how much of that was just because of stacking Crystal Weapon with Crushing Weapon, Frenzied Momentum, etc., I also can't recall if that was before Medium lost Crit Chance, which obviously was not at all good for StamSorc.

I'm sorry I'm confused on what would you mean by stronger ? As in playstyle / builds / both ? Stam Sorcs was nerfed from my perspective of just good synergy theory crafting, and not legitimate by making a class stronger on purpose to compete with Stam sorc unique playstyles.

So IMO Stam Sorcs playstyles were nerfed and by doing so other classes where buffed to compete. Who ever says stam sorcs are OP has to legitimately run the meta 24/7 and it wasn't like that prior. You used to be able to counter things with Stam sorcs, that what made them so fun to play.

WeylandLabs

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

By this point i have played this game long enough to know who mains what. So here 's what I feel about this thread.

I want to go back to meta hopping my old stamden, stamcro or particularly stamblade which have been OP since god knows how long.

ZOS already nerfed magplar and magden so there's a bunch of magicka classes back into the bin.

Now let's try to nerf the last mag class which can actually rival me because we all know mag is supposed to be free AP in PVP. Else how can I upload my amazing 1vx videos?

The bias in this PVP community is so unreal which is why we can never have nice things

I feel there isnt a bias, but a delusional ideology in pvp for it being skilled. The best players in pvp are the worst at real skilled game in esports. This give them a sense of satisfaction and or meaning to help with there distresses in real life.

Urzigurumash

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

All I know is they gave DK's and Templars the same unique characteristics as stam sorcs in there ability to be able to heal really good while throwing out damage.

What I see is a lot of homogenization and bias in classes. Kind of sucks for vetted players with a creative aptitude towards theory crafting.

Well just a year ago StamSorc was much stronger than StamDK or StamPlar, I don't know how much of that was just because of stacking Crystal Weapon with Crushing Weapon, Frenzied Momentum, etc., I also can't recall if that was before Medium lost Crit Chance, which obviously was not at all good for StamSorc.

I'm sorry I'm confused on what would you mean by stronger ? As in playstyle / builds / both ? Stam Sorcs was nerfed from my perspective of just good synergy theory crafting, and not legitimate by making a class stronger on purpose to compete with Stam sorc unique playstyles.

So IMO Stam Sorcs playstyles were nerfed and by doing so other classes where buffed to compete. Who ever says stam sorcs are OP has to legitimately run the meta 24/7 and it wasn't like that prior. You used to be able to counter things with Stam sorcs, that what made them so fun to play.

Yeah I'm strictly talking about StamSorc stacking numerous burst effects at once, largely dependent on Frenzied Momentum, which elevated them to almost StamDen/StamCro level for a patch or two. At this time StamDK and StamPlar were firmly at the bottom of any tier list along with MagNB, MagDen, and MagDK, depending on the setting (MagDK always being strong in duels, MagNB always being strong for 1vX stealth AoE in Cyro, etc.)

So yes this was strictly a build issue and was entirely removed from the game when they removed the ability of a few dozen burst proc sets to stack. Personally I had no problem with Crystal and Crushing Weapon stacking together, I'm not sure that would've been so much of an issue without the Frenzied Momentum and such, but whatever. I think Elemental Weapon has a role right now on MagCro and MagDen (highest tooltip "spammable" available to them) but I don't really know if Crushing Weapon is relevant for any Stam class? I don't think I've seen it in some time.

Urzigurumash

GetAgrippa wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Yea, nothing has been this op compared to anything else since 2014 batswarm-days, and back then those were best on dk too, unrelated, but atm dk combustion passive paired with charged, corrosive and molten whip + their selfheals are insane OP.

I think DK needs nerfs for sure... But nothing has been this overpowered in the last 8 years? Nothing?

Not wolves with Torugs Pact and oblivion enchants that proc off of single target dots? Not bashcros upon their introduction? Not magsorcs with an unblockable, undodgeable ranged stun in Rune Cage? Not stamsorcs when they could stack Crystal Weapon, Frenzied Momentum, Deadlands Assassin and Dawnbreaker in one cool down? Dks need nerfs no doubt but this is hardly the most broken thing in the last 8 years.

I agree all of these builds were as broken as MagDK or more in any one setting (there's that StamSorc stack I was talking about from last year), but I could see the argument made that right now MagDK is equally strong with single target or AoE, in groups or solo, in Proc Cyro, No Proc Cyro, IC, Duels, or BGs. Nobody was dying to a BashCro in a duel, Torugs WWs swept the competition in small scale settings but were still single target focused, etc.

However I do suggest we scrutinize the breadth of reasons why this is the case and not limit our focus to what we see in our recaps - I'm sure during the peak Malacath StamDen era we wouldn't have to search long for complaints that Permafrost was OP, for instance.

Like I've said in many posts about mDK and Undeath - point for point Fire does more damage to a Vampire than any other element - but it still does less damage to a Vampire than it does to a Mortal. Off topic but again, removing the Flame and Fighter's Guild Damage Taken from Vampirism would, right now, be a positive thing for PvP balance and could help clarify exactly where mDK needs toned down. Even further off-topic but what's the ratio of Dawnbreakers cast to Onslaught all-time in PvP, probably roughly 1 million to 1 and I'm not exaggerating.

Davadin

divnyi wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

This is insane.

Massive Damage.
Infinite self heal.
Perfect CCs.
No sustain problems.

This is not game balance. One DK easily roll 3+ of any other class. A group of them can easily trounce multiple times their numbers.
This isn't fun and it needs to be fixed.

how's the sustain have no problems?

https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/combustion got buffed to 1000 from 500. Same patch Charged trait got buffed to the point where I now consider rolling it on many many classes and characters, sometimes on frontbar - it is that good.

so for 2H + 1H/S, u'd put Charge on the 2H? better than Nirn/Sharpened? then, what, put Flame enchant on it? LOL

Edit: i have witch-knight set so i need to make sure people gets poisoned, so i run with green claw... But contemplating switching to burning morph for mag return but may need to put poison on a weapon

divnyi

Davadin wrote: »

But contemplating switching to burning morph for mag return but may need to put poison on a weapon

I mean that's what I'd do.
Charged + ench guarantees poison every 4s.
Burning Embers heal, it is PvP morph.

Hescrow

[snip]

Just support other posts for buff other classes for balance sake.

Magdk and magplar have reach their top. ZOS have to do same for the others.

[edited for baiting]

olsborg

Hescrow wrote: »

[snip]

Just support other posts for buff other classes for balance sake.

Magdk and magplar have reach their top. ZOS have to do same for the others.

The point is...magplar did get nerfed abit on pts, magdk did not, and they are the ones in serious need of some nerfs, there cant be enough "nerf magdk" threads atm because ppl dont want this meta to continue any longer.

[edited to remove quote]

WordsOfPower

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

WordsOfPower wrote: »

You don't think flame lash with full stacks while in corrosive on a target in shattering rocks is good burst?

Blockable, dodgeable, single target.
Also high cost ult, which only results in armor pen, which is x2 damage max.
You can do better with ult setup. More damage and AoE, or more damage single target from invis.

Whenever burst is the king, stamden, magcro and stamblade is top tier.

I mean you can hit a 12k molten on top of a 5k FOB there’s your burst. All of nbs burst can be blocked , rolled and is single target as well lol.

DK is supposed to be played in mostly Heavy, but this is no longer a competitive choice.

VexxPK would disagree with you, in 5 Heavy

MEBengalsFan2001

I think the issue isn't DK being strong; it is how CC immunity and CC effects work. You get hit with one type of CC effect you break free than get hit by another and another and another. You run out of stamina and than try to heal through the attacks, than use a tri pot to get more resources back only to end up without any resources because the DK class now has excellent sustain you simply die.

The devs need to fix CC effects and immunity.

I don't want to hear it is working as intended. As intended would mean that after getting up from being knockback, or breaking free from a stun I should have immunity to both for 6 seconds but that is rarely the case. Going 1v1 against a templar using spear I was constantly knockback every 2 seconds. Going against 2 DK I ended up getting stunned every 2 seconds. Etc...

You can state it is lag all you want but I didn't see lag the other day when all three alliances was fighting at Fare on NA PS server. Everything was fine on my end. I didn't have any issues with ability etc. But I did see issues with CC effects, even when the map is dead I see the same issues with CC effects and how CC immunity works.

Minalan

The Dev team are all PVE players, they buffed DK so that everyone in Cyrodiil can get a taste of what it’s like to fight a raid boss.

MEBengalsFan2001

olsborg wrote: »

Hescrow wrote: »

[snip]

Just support other posts for buff other classes for balance sake.

Magdk and magplar have reach their top. ZOS have to do same for the others.

The point is...magplar did get nerfed abit on pts, magdk did not, and they are the ones in serious need of some nerfs, there cant be enough "nerf magdk" threads atm because ppl dont want this meta to continue any longer.

[edited to remove quote]

The new meta will be StamSorc and MagDK instead of Magplar and MagDK.

The new meta is changing.

Urzigurumash

WordsOfPower wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

WordsOfPower wrote: »

You don't think flame lash with full stacks while in corrosive on a target in shattering rocks is good burst?

Blockable, dodgeable, single target.
Also high cost ult, which only results in armor pen, which is x2 damage max.
You can do better with ult setup. More damage and AoE, or more damage single target from invis.

Whenever burst is the king, stamden, magcro and stamblade is top tier.

I mean you can hit a 12k molten on top of a 5k FOB there’s your burst. All of nbs burst can be blocked , rolled and is single target as well lol.

DK is supposed to be played in mostly Heavy, but this is no longer a competitive choice.

VexxPK would disagree with you, in 5 Heavy

What is their reason for running 5h? Because I'm pretty sure you get more mitigation against Mag players by wearing 3h 4m than you would 5h 2m, even more so after a roll-dodge. Am I wrong?

But, regardless of that, what do we think - is a DK or Templar in 5h competitive because of synergy with the Knight/Cleric classes and Heavy Armor, or because the classes are overtuned and can be competitive in an otherwise inefficient build?

My position is that things were wrong when StamSorc could find their best play in 5h, and things are wrong when StamDK cannot. To me that was part of the original difference in identity between the 2 Dizzy Swing classes.

Yes I'm clinging to the old ways, and no my clinging doesn't really have any motivation outside of RP, or the idea that RP can inform balance for the purpose of preserving or strengthening Class Identity.