Where the heck is the Dragonknight Nerf?

acastanza_ESO

This is insane.

Massive Damage.
Infinite self heal.
Perfect CCs.
No sustain problems.

This is not game balance. One DK easily roll 3+ of any other class. A group of them can easily trounce multiple times their numbers.
This isn't fun and it needs to be fixed.

Elrond87

they must do this stuff on purpose, dk was crap a while ago, they seem to cycle through them all up & down

divnyi

DK is good at DPS in PvP. DK was always good at DPS in PvP.
Thing is, not in every meta DPS mattered so much in PvP.
If the balance shifted towards burst one day, DK would be one of the weakest classes again.

WordsOfPower

You don't think flame lash with full stacks while in corrosive on a target in shattering rocks is good burst?

divnyi

WordsOfPower wrote: »

You don't think flame lash with full stacks while in corrosive on a target in shattering rocks is good burst?

Blockable, dodgeable, single target.
Also high cost ult, which only results in armor pen, which is x2 damage max.
You can do better with ult setup. More damage and AoE, or more damage single target from invis.

Whenever burst is the king, stamden, magcro and stamblade is top tier.

Alchimiste1

divnyi wrote: »

WordsOfPower wrote: »

You don't think flame lash with full stacks while in corrosive on a target in shattering rocks is good burst?

Blockable, dodgeable, single target.
Also high cost ult, which only results in armor pen, which is x2 damage max.
You can do better with ult setup. More damage and AoE, or more damage single target from invis.

Whenever burst is the king, stamden, magcro and stamblade is top tier.

I mean you can hit a 12k molten on top of a 5k FOB there’s your burst. All of nbs burst can be blocked , rolled and is single target as well lol.

divnyi

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

WordsOfPower wrote: »

You don't think flame lash with full stacks while in corrosive on a target in shattering rocks is good burst?

Blockable, dodgeable, single target.
Also high cost ult, which only results in armor pen, which is x2 damage max.
You can do better with ult setup. More damage and AoE, or more damage single target from invis.

Whenever burst is the king, stamden, magcro and stamblade is top tier.

I mean you can hit a 12k molten on top of a 5k FOB there’s your burst. All of nbs burst can be blocked , rolled and is single target as well lol.

You can't roll what you don't expect. Caluurions burst starting with heavy attack into incap is pretty much guaranteed, unless enemy knew you are there and baited the hit.

MentalxHammer

divnyi wrote: »

WordsOfPower wrote: »

You don't think flame lash with full stacks while in corrosive on a target in shattering rocks is good burst?

Blockable, dodgeable, single target.
Also high cost ult, which only results in armor pen, which is x2 damage max.
You can do better with ult setup. More damage and AoE, or more damage single target from invis.

Whenever burst is the king, stamden, magcro and stamblade is top tier.

Shattering rocks is blockable/dodgeable?

Urzigurumash

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

WordsOfPower wrote: »

You don't think flame lash with full stacks while in corrosive on a target in shattering rocks is good burst?

Blockable, dodgeable, single target.
Also high cost ult, which only results in armor pen, which is x2 damage max.
You can do better with ult setup. More damage and AoE, or more damage single target from invis.

Whenever burst is the king, stamden, magcro and stamblade is top tier.

I mean you can hit a 12k molten on top of a 5k FOB there’s your burst. All of nbs burst can be blocked , rolled and is single target as well lol.

DK is the only class with no unique bonus to or reward from Crit Damage or Crit Chance - in other words the least potential return from investing into Crit. StamSorc and StamDen don't get much and Necro's isn't terribly relevant but DK has nothing except an alternative to slotting Hunter / Magelight. DK is also more restricted to dealing damage in melee range than most other classes.

Of course DK is OP now but these are two reasons I agree with the general premise that increasing Damage in general would give other classes a bit of an advantage over DK.

In my opinion DK was always supposed to have strong defense, strong damage, but weak mobility and weak sustain out of melee combat resulting in a general inability to evade.

DK is supposed to have to fight until the end so adjustments should reinforce this limitation, in my opinion.

Some of these limitations were upended with the changes to armor passives, since DK is supposed to be played in mostly Heavy, but this is no longer a competitive choice.

divnyi

MentalxHammer wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

WordsOfPower wrote: »

You don't think flame lash with full stacks while in corrosive on a target in shattering rocks is good burst?

Blockable, dodgeable, single target.
Also high cost ult, which only results in armor pen, which is x2 damage max.
You can do better with ult setup. More damage and AoE, or more damage single target from invis.

Whenever burst is the king, stamden, magcro and stamblade is top tier.

Shattering rocks is blockable/dodgeable?

Whip is blockable/dodgeable. If you didn't notice, charged whip has longer animation, so effectively 1.5s to stunbreak and react.

divnyi

Urzigurumash wrote: »

DK is the only class with no unique bonus to or reward from Crit Damage or Crit Chance - in other words the least potential return from investing into Crit.

There is one thing about critDK: it is strong because crit setup is DPS setup - you can get much better burst in procs.
DK is *the* best DPS class. Absolute best DoTs. Good CC. And investing in crit also boosts heals, unlike many other damage sets.

In my opinion DK was always supposed to have strong defense, strong damage, but weak mobility and weak sustain out of melee combat resulting in a general inability to evade.

Agree with the sentiment. But reducing mobility of those who slot into movement speed and use RAT / elusive isn't that easy imo. This package is available on any class.

DK is also more restricted to dealing damage in melee range than most other classes.

In practice it is midrange. Flames of Oblivion has pretty wild range for AoE ability. DKs have single target range passive increase to 10m, as well as fire/poison cone attack at 10m. This is not point-blank combat style.

Urzigurumash

divnyi wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

DK is the only class with no unique bonus to or reward from Crit Damage or Crit Chance - in other words the least potential return from investing into Crit.

There is one thing about critDK: it is strong because crit setup is DPS setup - you can get much better burst in procs.
DK is *the* best DPS class. Absolute best DoTs. Good CC. And investing in crit also boosts heals, unlike many other damage sets.

In my opinion DK was always supposed to have strong defense, strong damage, but weak mobility and weak sustain out of melee combat resulting in a general inability to evade.

Agree with the sentiment. But reducing mobility of those who slot into movement speed and use RAT / elusive isn't that easy imo. This package is available on any class.

DK is also more restricted to dealing damage in melee range than most other classes.

In practice it is midrange. Flames of Oblivion has pretty wild range for AoE ability. DKs have single target range passive increase to 10m, as well as fire/poison cone attack at 10m. This is not point-blank combat style.

Yes the best DPS now, DK is now the best at all roles, all content, or whatever, but for years 1# score on VMA on DK wouldn't've ranked on any other class. We were "supposed to" only be the best at Tanking.

Elder Dragon increases 5m abilities to 7m. Every other class has more ranged damage skills and/or (was supposed to) have better synergy with Bow and Destro skills.

Speaking strictly of StamDK: back in the day we got next to nothing out of Crit. Green Dragon Blood didn't Crit at all, no Crit chance weapon in the 2h line, no synergy in DK passives with Medium Armor passives since that was supposed to be for Archer/Thief characters and not Sword & Board/Warrior characters, etc. Initially StamDK was discouraged at most choices from speccing into Crit whatsoever. Strength-based Warriors use 2h weapons and Metal Armor, Dexterity-based Thieves use DW and Leather Armor - that's an archetype that predates and exists outside of ESO. Early on also there was a clear synergy of DK + Nord/Orc + Heavy Armor + 2h. Medium Armor + 2h was the unique purview of StamSorc, aka the Berserker, some halfway point between Warrior/Knight and Thief/Rogue. Orcs and Nords are big and slow (DK), Khajiit and Bosmer are quick and agile (NB), Redguards are halfway between the others (Sorc).

Anyhow those are all just retrospective thoughts - obviously what appears to be the case now is that World in Ruin, Combustion, and Whip were all over-buffed, contextualized also with the ubiquity of Vampirism (itself engendered by nerfs to Heavy Armor / HP Regen). Perhaps the motivation was to make things such that there could be no doubt as to whether the DK kit was fundamentally capable of being the best at any role - to crush any of the silly complaints that "DK needs redesigned from the ground up" as we often see said of underperforming classes.

As we discussed above, some of this appearance of what was overbuffed may be partially attributable to how things shake out right now with the overall balance of Damage / Healing / HP Pools. The state of World in Ruin could probably be better informed with PvE perspectives which I lack.

It's definitely conspicuous how DK has almost as much mobility as anybody else these days. For sure that's supposed to be a Knight's limitation, he is slow when unmounted.

WeylandLabs

Urzigurumash wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

DK is the only class with no unique bonus to or reward from Crit Damage or Crit Chance - in other words the least potential return from investing into Crit.

There is one thing about critDK: it is strong because crit setup is DPS setup - you can get much better burst in procs.
DK is *the* best DPS class. Absolute best DoTs. Good CC. And investing in crit also boosts heals, unlike many other damage sets.

In my opinion DK was always supposed to have strong defense, strong damage, but weak mobility and weak sustain out of melee combat resulting in a general inability to evade.

Agree with the sentiment. But reducing mobility of those who slot into movement speed and use RAT / elusive isn't that easy imo. This package is available on any class.

DK is also more restricted to dealing damage in melee range than most other classes.

In practice it is midrange. Flames of Oblivion has pretty wild range for AoE ability. DKs have single target range passive increase to 10m, as well as fire/poison cone attack at 10m. This is not point-blank combat style.

Yes the best DPS now, DK is now the best at all roles, all content, or whatever, but for years 1# score on VMA on DK wouldn't've ranked on any other class. We were "supposed to" only be the best at Tanking.

Elder Dragon increases 5m abilities to 7m. Every other class has more ranged damage skills and/or (was supposed to) have better synergy with Bow and Destro skills.

Speaking strictly of StamDK: back in the day we got next to nothing out of Crit. Green Dragon Blood didn't Crit at all, no Crit chance weapon in the 2h line, no synergy in DK passives with Medium Armor passives since that was supposed to be for Archer/Thief characters and not Sword & Board/Warrior characters, etc. Initially StamDK was discouraged at most choices from speccing into Crit whatsoever. Strength-based Warriors use 2h weapons and Metal Armor, Dexterity-based Thieves use DW and Leather Armor - that's an archetype that predates and exists outside of ESO. Early on also there was a clear synergy of DK + Nord/Orc + Heavy Armor + 2h. Medium Armor + 2h was the unique purview of StamSorc, aka the Berserker, some halfway point between Warrior/Knight and Thief/Rogue. Orcs and Nords are big and slow (DK), Khajiit and Bosmer are quick and agile (NB), Redguards are halfway between the others (Sorc).

Anyhow those are all just retrospective thoughts - obviously what appears to be the case now is that World in Ruin, Combustion, and Whip were all over-buffed, contextualized also with the ubiquity of Vampirism (itself engendered by nerfs to Heavy Armor / HP Regen). Perhaps the motivation was to make things such that there could be no doubt as to whether the DK kit was fundamentally capable of being the best at any role - to crush any of the silly complaints that "DK needs redesigned from the ground up" as we often see said of underperforming classes.

As we discussed above, some of this appearance of what was overbuffed may be partially attributable to how things shake out right now with the overall balance of Damage / Healing / HP Pools. The state of World in Ruin could probably be better informed with PvE perspectives which I lack.

It's definitely conspicuous how DK has almost as much mobility as anybody else these days. For sure that's supposed to be a Knight's limitation, he is slow when unmounted.

I'm confused also, so im sipping my tea waiting patently to understand this also ! 😂

Urzigurumash

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

DK is the only class with no unique bonus to or reward from Crit Damage or Crit Chance - in other words the least potential return from investing into Crit.

There is one thing about critDK: it is strong because crit setup is DPS setup - you can get much better burst in procs.
DK is *the* best DPS class. Absolute best DoTs. Good CC. And investing in crit also boosts heals, unlike many other damage sets.

In my opinion DK was always supposed to have strong defense, strong damage, but weak mobility and weak sustain out of melee combat resulting in a general inability to evade.

Agree with the sentiment. But reducing mobility of those who slot into movement speed and use RAT / elusive isn't that easy imo. This package is available on any class.

DK is also more restricted to dealing damage in melee range than most other classes.

In practice it is midrange. Flames of Oblivion has pretty wild range for AoE ability. DKs have single target range passive increase to 10m, as well as fire/poison cone attack at 10m. This is not point-blank combat style.

Yes the best DPS now, DK is now the best at all roles, all content, or whatever, but for years 1# score on VMA on DK wouldn't've ranked on any other class. We were "supposed to" only be the best at Tanking.

Elder Dragon increases 5m abilities to 7m. Every other class has more ranged damage skills and/or (was supposed to) have better synergy with Bow and Destro skills.

Speaking strictly of StamDK: back in the day we got next to nothing out of Crit. Green Dragon Blood didn't Crit at all, no Crit chance weapon in the 2h line, no synergy in DK passives with Medium Armor passives since that was supposed to be for Archer/Thief characters and not Sword & Board/Warrior characters, etc. Initially StamDK was discouraged at most choices from speccing into Crit whatsoever. Strength-based Warriors use 2h weapons and Metal Armor, Dexterity-based Thieves use DW and Leather Armor - that's an archetype that predates and exists outside of ESO. Early on also there was a clear synergy of DK + Nord/Orc + Heavy Armor + 2h. Medium Armor + 2h was the unique purview of StamSorc, aka the Berserker, some halfway point between Warrior/Knight and Thief/Rogue. Orcs and Nords are big and slow (DK), Khajiit and Bosmer are quick and agile (NB), Redguards are halfway between the others (Sorc).

Anyhow those are all just retrospective thoughts - obviously what appears to be the case now is that World in Ruin, Combustion, and Whip were all over-buffed, contextualized also with the ubiquity of Vampirism (itself engendered by nerfs to Heavy Armor / HP Regen). Perhaps the motivation was to make things such that there could be no doubt as to whether the DK kit was fundamentally capable of being the best at any role - to crush any of the silly complaints that "DK needs redesigned from the ground up" as we often see said of underperforming classes.

As we discussed above, some of this appearance of what was overbuffed may be partially attributable to how things shake out right now with the overall balance of Damage / Healing / HP Pools. The state of World in Ruin could probably be better informed with PvE perspectives which I lack.

It's definitely conspicuous how DK has almost as much mobility as anybody else these days. For sure that's supposed to be a Knight's limitation, he is slow when unmounted.

I'm confused also, so im sipping my tea waiting patently to understand this also ! 😂

I don't think it's an unreasonable approach. This class is the worst at everything, according to players? Buff it over the top, identify where it's too unfairly or uncharacteristically strong, and tone it down in those areas.

WeylandLabs

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

DK is the only class with no unique bonus to or reward from Crit Damage or Crit Chance - in other words the least potential return from investing into Crit.

There is one thing about critDK: it is strong because crit setup is DPS setup - you can get much better burst in procs.
DK is *the* best DPS class. Absolute best DoTs. Good CC. And investing in crit also boosts heals, unlike many other damage sets.

In my opinion DK was always supposed to have strong defense, strong damage, but weak mobility and weak sustain out of melee combat resulting in a general inability to evade.

Agree with the sentiment. But reducing mobility of those who slot into movement speed and use RAT / elusive isn't that easy imo. This package is available on any class.

DK is also more restricted to dealing damage in melee range than most other classes.

In practice it is midrange. Flames of Oblivion has pretty wild range for AoE ability. DKs have single target range passive increase to 10m, as well as fire/poison cone attack at 10m. This is not point-blank combat style.

Yes the best DPS now, DK is now the best at all roles, all content, or whatever, but for years 1# score on VMA on DK wouldn't've ranked on any other class. We were "supposed to" only be the best at Tanking.

Elder Dragon increases 5m abilities to 7m. Every other class has more ranged damage skills and/or (was supposed to) have better synergy with Bow and Destro skills.

Speaking strictly of StamDK: back in the day we got next to nothing out of Crit. Green Dragon Blood didn't Crit at all, no Crit chance weapon in the 2h line, no synergy in DK passives with Medium Armor passives since that was supposed to be for Archer/Thief characters and not Sword & Board/Warrior characters, etc. Initially StamDK was discouraged at most choices from speccing into Crit whatsoever. Strength-based Warriors use 2h weapons and Metal Armor, Dexterity-based Thieves use DW and Leather Armor - that's an archetype that predates and exists outside of ESO. Early on also there was a clear synergy of DK + Nord/Orc + Heavy Armor + 2h. Medium Armor + 2h was the unique purview of StamSorc, aka the Berserker, some halfway point between Warrior/Knight and Thief/Rogue. Orcs and Nords are big and slow (DK), Khajiit and Bosmer are quick and agile (NB), Redguards are halfway between the others (Sorc).

Anyhow those are all just retrospective thoughts - obviously what appears to be the case now is that World in Ruin, Combustion, and Whip were all over-buffed, contextualized also with the ubiquity of Vampirism (itself engendered by nerfs to Heavy Armor / HP Regen). Perhaps the motivation was to make things such that there could be no doubt as to whether the DK kit was fundamentally capable of being the best at any role - to crush any of the silly complaints that "DK needs redesigned from the ground up" as we often see said of underperforming classes.

As we discussed above, some of this appearance of what was overbuffed may be partially attributable to how things shake out right now with the overall balance of Damage / Healing / HP Pools. The state of World in Ruin could probably be better informed with PvE perspectives which I lack.

It's definitely conspicuous how DK has almost as much mobility as anybody else these days. For sure that's supposed to be a Knight's limitation, he is slow when unmounted.

I'm confused also, so im sipping my tea waiting patently to understand this also ! 😂

I don't think it's an unreasonable approach. This class is the worst at everything, according to players? Buff it over the top, identify where it's too unfairly or uncharacteristically strong, and tone it down in those are

All I know is they gave DK's and Templars the same unique characteristics as stam sorcs in there ability to be able to heal really good while throwing out damage.

What I see is a lot of homogenization and bias in classes. Kind of sucks for vetted players with a creative aptitude towards theory crafting.

Urzigurumash

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

All I know is they gave DK's and Templars the same unique characteristics as stam sorcs in there ability to be able to heal really good while throwing out damage.

What I see is a lot of homogenization and bias in classes. Kind of sucks for vetted players with a creative aptitude towards theory crafting.

Well just a year ago StamSorc was much stronger than StamDK or StamPlar, I don't know how much of that was just because of stacking Crystal Weapon with Crushing Weapon, Frenzied Momentum, etc., I also can't recall if that was before Medium lost Crit Chance, which obviously was not at all good for StamSorc.

Davadin

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

This is insane.

Massive Damage.
Infinite self heal.
Perfect CCs.
No sustain problems.

This is not game balance. One DK easily roll 3+ of any other class. A group of them can easily trounce multiple times their numbers.
This isn't fun and it needs to be fixed.

how's the sustain have no problems?

serious question: I'm just returning after a long hiatus and everybody seems doing hybrid and I'm gasping on all front! (I mean, minimum 30k health right? my recovery are *** everywhere else)

PhoenixGrey

By this point i have played this game long enough to know who mains what. So here 's what I feel about this thread.

I want to go back to meta hopping my old stamden, stamcro or particularly stamblade which have been OP since god knows how long.

ZOS already nerfed magplar and magden so there's a bunch of magicka classes back into the bin.

Now let's try to nerf the last mag class which can actually rival me because we all know mag is supposed to be free AP in PVP. Else how can I upload my amazing 1vx videos?

The bias in this PVP community is so unreal which is why we can never have nice things

divnyi

Davadin wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

This is insane.

Massive Damage.
Infinite self heal.
Perfect CCs.
No sustain problems.

This is not game balance. One DK easily roll 3+ of any other class. A group of them can easily trounce multiple times their numbers.
This isn't fun and it needs to be fixed.

how's the sustain have no problems?

https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/combustion got buffed to 1000 from 500. Same patch Charged trait got buffed to the point where I now consider rolling it on many many classes and characters, sometimes on frontbar - it is that good.

divnyi

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I don't know how much of that was just because of stacking Crystal Weapon with Crushing Weapon, Frenzied Momentum, etc., I also can't recall if that was before Medium lost Crit Chance, which obviously was not at all good for StamSorc.

Stamsorc was always good because of Dark Conversion and Streak. Nothing changed fundamentally over years in that area.

Also, what is StamDK?

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Yes the best DPS now, DK is now the best at all roles, all content, or whatever, but for years 1# score on VMA on DK wouldn't've ranked on any other class.

Because PvE doesn't need DoTs to stick to player, actually prefers ground DoTs over that.
In PvP ground dots are generally worthless, except ones which snare.

Now that all dots were "normalized" in dot patch, DK "sticky" dots are the only strong dots left in the game.

Minalan

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

By this point i have played this game long enough to know who mains what. So here 's what I feel about this thread.

I want to go back to meta hopping my old stamden, stamcro or particularly stamblade which have been OP since god knows how long.

ZOS already nerfed magplar and magden so there's a bunch of magicka classes back into the bin.

Now let's try to nerf the last mag class which can actually rival me because we all know mag is supposed to be free AP in PVP. Else how can I upload my amazing 1vx videos?

The bias in this PVP community is so unreal which is why we can never have nice things

Just play your free AP piñata magicka sorc. You’re getting nerfed again next patch too, with a reduced frag proc rate.

bUt iT pRoCs oN sTaM sKiLlS dUuUH!

Stop paying. Stop playing. [snip]

[edited for bashing]

Urzigurumash

Davadin wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

This is insane.

Massive Damage.
Infinite self heal.
Perfect CCs.
No sustain problems.

This is not game balance. One DK easily roll 3+ of any other class. A group of them can easily trounce multiple times their numbers.
This isn't fun and it needs to be fixed.

how's the sustain have no problems?

serious question: I'm just returning after a long hiatus and everybody seems doing hybrid and I'm gasping on all front! (I mean, minimum 30k health right? my recovery are *** everywhere else)

You're using Whirlwind aren't you? This skill is so expensive, I've found it hard to build around the revised Chaotic Whirlwind, the Asylum Duel Wield set. Somewhere there's a cool build using this but I haven't quite found it yet.

Urzigurumash

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

By this point i have played this game long enough to know who mains what. So here 's what I feel about this thread.

I want to go back to meta hopping my old stamden, stamcro or particularly stamblade which have been OP since god knows how long.

ZOS already nerfed magplar and magden so there's a bunch of magicka classes back into the bin.

Now let's try to nerf the last mag class which can actually rival me because we all know mag is supposed to be free AP in PVP. Else how can I upload my amazing 1vx videos?

The bias in this PVP community is so unreal which is why we can never have nice things

Go on? You're saying MagDK only seems to need nerfs because it now rivals StamDen and StamCro in power, or what? I think MagDK is quite a bit stronger than StamDen or StamCro and StamDK roughly on par with the two.

MEBengalsFan2001

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

WordsOfPower wrote: »

You don't think flame lash with full stacks while in corrosive on a target in shattering rocks is good burst?

Blockable, dodgeable, single target.
Also high cost ult, which only results in armor pen, which is x2 damage max.
You can do better with ult setup. More damage and AoE, or more damage single target from invis.

Whenever burst is the king, stamden, magcro and stamblade is top tier.

I mean you can hit a 12k molten on top of a 5k FOB there’s your burst. All of nbs burst can be blocked , rolled and is single target as well lol.

I find certain classes work better in larger groups of 8+ and others work better solo or smaller groups.

DK are great solo and work great in groups. They really have no weakness. They can do both range and melee damage well. Templars are mostly short range and longer range they to be subpar. Than there are classes like the Warden that excel at Range combat and are subpar without weapon abilities for melee type of damage.

IMO all classes could be adjusted but only once the devs fix CC effects and CC immunity.

Urzigurumash

divnyi wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I don't know how much of that was just because of stacking Crystal Weapon with Crushing Weapon, Frenzied Momentum, etc., I also can't recall if that was before Medium lost Crit Chance, which obviously was not at all good for StamSorc.

Stamsorc was always good because of Dark Conversion and Streak. Nothing changed fundamentally over years in that area.

Also, what is StamDK?

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Yes the best DPS now, DK is now the best at all roles, all content, or whatever, but for years 1# score on VMA on DK wouldn't've ranked on any other class.

Because PvE doesn't need DoTs to stick to player, actually prefers ground DoTs over that.
In PvP ground dots are generally worthless, except ones which snare.

Now that all dots were "normalized" in dot patch, DK "sticky" dots are the only strong dots left in the game.

Yeah you have a good point about DoTs. The limitations of Ground DoTs in PvP is obviously an issue with FrostDen because Winter's Revenge is designed to be the most powerful and reliable way to proc Chilled. Off topic but I wish Frost Impulse gave something besides Minor Protection. Frankly I think the other morphs should have "Aftershock" and "Afterchill" like Flame's Afterburn.

As for StamDK and StamSorc, yeah mobility and sustain while being mobile was StamSorc's big advantage over DK. StamDK was particularly horrible at VMA because of our poor mobility, poor sustain, and poor synergy with Bow - all things which were StamSorc's strengths. It was pretty interesting that among the two original D Swingers, StamSorc was the best at VMA, and StamDK was by far the worst. In fact I'd be willing to bet that for many patches 100% of the DK VMA leaderboard was mDK.

As for StamDK's identity, well, this was always why I regarded StamWhip with some skepticism. I was skeptical of Claw and Breath when they were introduced too even though of course years later the skills are dear to me. A maul-wielding Warrior is "supposed to" rely on that instrument for damage. It's not uncommon now that you're not quite sure when examining a recap whether you died to a "Stam" or "Mag" DK.

Might sound like I'm complaining about how sDK struggled in VMA in years past - but did StamDK have any role in PvE Leaderboards? StamDK like in PvP? With a sword and board, Frag Shield, and maybe Green Dragon Blood? Yes, it had a role, the most important role in each and every Leaderboard Trials Team - the main tank.

PhoenixGrey

Urzigurumash wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

By this point i have played this game long enough to know who mains what. So here 's what I feel about this thread.

I want to go back to meta hopping my old stamden, stamcro or particularly stamblade which have been OP since god knows how long.

ZOS already nerfed magplar and magden so there's a bunch of magicka classes back into the bin.

Now let's try to nerf the last mag class which can actually rival me because we all know mag is supposed to be free AP in PVP. Else how can I upload my amazing 1vx videos?

The bias in this PVP community is so unreal which is why we can never have nice things

Go on? You're saying MagDK only seems to need nerfs because it now rivals StamDen and StamCro in power, or what? I think MagDK is quite a bit stronger than StamDen or StamCro and StamDK roughly on par with the two.

Stam was quite a bit stronger than mag except the last few months for however long I have played this game.

Urzigurumash

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

By this point i have played this game long enough to know who mains what. So here 's what I feel about this thread.

I want to go back to meta hopping my old stamden, stamcro or particularly stamblade which have been OP since god knows how long.

ZOS already nerfed magplar and magden so there's a bunch of magicka classes back into the bin.

Now let's try to nerf the last mag class which can actually rival me because we all know mag is supposed to be free AP in PVP. Else how can I upload my amazing 1vx videos?

The bias in this PVP community is so unreal which is why we can never have nice things

Go on? You're saying MagDK only seems to need nerfs because it now rivals StamDen and StamCro in power, or what? I think MagDK is quite a bit stronger than StamDen or StamCro and StamDK roughly on par with the two.

Stam was quite a bit stronger than mag except the last few months for however long I have played this game.

In general maybe, but not for DK, Sorc, Templar. Not now, not ever, really. (maybe StamSorc was stronger than MagSorc circa a year ago at peak Frenzied Momentum and maybe even now, I'm not quite sure - but circa 2017/2018 on my server MagSorc was regarded as the best PvP class and StamSorc the worst, outside of IC where it's always been 2nd best after StamBlade)

Probably StamDK was stronger than MagDK outside of dueling for most of 2020 and 2021, but sDK was so outclassed by StamDen and StamCro that nobody noticed. Now obviously there's not much comparison between the two, MagDK is widely regarded as S+. 2015 through 2018 MagDK was way ahead of StamDK. Things started to change around 2018, to my memory that was when Stam started to gain a big edge over Mag. I didn't play before 2015 but obviously 2014 MagDK is legendary.

divnyi

Urzigurumash wrote: »

maybe StamSorc was stronger than MagSorc circa a year ago at peak Frenzied Momentum and maybe even now, I'm not quite sure - but circa 2017/2018 on my server MagSorc was regarded as the best PvP class and StamSorc the worst, outside of IC where it's always been 2nd best after StamBlade

PC EU have a number of very strong bowsorcs in BGs, so you would never say that the class is doing bad. I didn't see frenzy combo for quite a while, I don't think it's a thing now. Every stamsorc I know is bow. It makes sense because the class excels at getting out of combat.

olsborg

Yea, nothing has been this op compared to anything else since 2014 batswarm-days, and back then those were best on dk too, unrelated, but atm dk combustion passive paired with charged, corrosive and molten whip + their selfheals are insane OP.

PhoenixGrey

Minalan wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

By this point i have played this game long enough to know who mains what. So here 's what I feel about this thread.

I want to go back to meta hopping my old stamden, stamcro or particularly stamblade which have been OP since god knows how long.

ZOS already nerfed magplar and magden so there's a bunch of magicka classes back into the bin.

Now let's try to nerf the last mag class which can actually rival me because we all know mag is supposed to be free AP in PVP. Else how can I upload my amazing 1vx videos?

The bias in this PVP community is so unreal which is why we can never have nice things

Just play your free AP piñata magicka sorc. You’re getting nerfed again next patch too, with a reduced frag proc rate.

bUt iT pRoCs oN sTaM sKiLlS dUuUH!

Stop paying. Stop playing. [snip]

Its one designer tbh .

Its a buff because stam sorcs can now use frags. In general ZOS 's intention is always to buff stamina specs for PVP and magicka for PVE.
If magicka is buffed for PVP indirectly, you probably got lucky bruh. You dont see forums blow up for stamcro, stamblade or stamden, Its usually mag sorc or some other magicka spec

Remember this one blew up https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/480332/the-balance-of-mag-sorcs/p1. Mag sorc was decent back then. Rinse & repeat for Mag DK and Mag plar. Oh wait Mag plar is already taken care of

[edited to remove quote]

PhoenixGrey

Urzigurumash wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

By this point i have played this game long enough to know who mains what. So here 's what I feel about this thread.

I want to go back to meta hopping my old stamden, stamcro or particularly stamblade which have been OP since god knows how long.

ZOS already nerfed magplar and magden so there's a bunch of magicka classes back into the bin.

Now let's try to nerf the last mag class which can actually rival me because we all know mag is supposed to be free AP in PVP. Else how can I upload my amazing 1vx videos?

The bias in this PVP community is so unreal which is why we can never have nice things

Go on? You're saying MagDK only seems to need nerfs because it now rivals StamDen and StamCro in power, or what? I think MagDK is quite a bit stronger than StamDen or StamCro and StamDK roughly on par with the two.

Stam was quite a bit stronger than mag except the last few months for however long I have played this game.

In general maybe, but not for DK, Sorc, Templar. Not now, not ever, really. (maybe StamSorc was stronger than MagSorc circa a year ago at peak Frenzied Momentum and maybe even now, I'm not quite sure - but circa 2017/2018 on my server MagSorc was regarded as the best PvP class and StamSorc the worst, outside of IC where it's always been 2nd best after StamBlade)

Probably StamDK was stronger than MagDK outside of dueling for most of 2020 and 2021, but sDK was so outclassed by StamDen and StamCro that nobody noticed. Now obviously there's not much comparison between the two, MagDK is widely regarded as S+. 2015 through 2018 MagDK was way ahead of StamDK. Things started to change around 2018, to my memory that was when Stam started to gain a big edge over Mag. I didn't play before 2015 but obviously 2014 MagDK is legendary.

I do remember heavy armor on some stamina specs and certain proc sets on stamblade which were broken even before that. Stamblade was widely regarded as the best solo PVP class back then. It still is but the newer players aren't really good enough to realize its potential