Executioner(2h) vs Killers blade (nb)

olsborg

Hey.
So, is it just me or does the class executes pale in comparison to the 2h one? It scales so much better and deals so much more dmg. Its an execute through and through, the class execute for nb for instance is also a heal...why? Every player of nbs that I talk to agree with me and most if not all of them do not use Killers blade or the other morph. They either use 2h execute or dw execute. What can we do about this?

Hargam

I think the point is that you can use Kiler's blade with any weapon.

olsborg

Hargam wrote: »

I think the point is that you can use Kiler's blade with any weapon.

But why would you? If you want an execute that is actually working well as an execute you wouldnt use it, even if "you can". Its like any choice rly, would you drink the dirty water or the clean one, you can drink either, but only one will actually taste good.

Not only is the scaling vastly worse on Killers blade, if you hit someone at 26% hp, if the target just heals 1k dmg just before you hit him, it will do squat for dmg, if you start using Executioner at around 40% hp it doesnt matter if he healed a few %, its still gonna deal tons of dmg compared to what Killers blade would.

Hargam

olsborg wrote: »

Hargam wrote: »

I think the point is that you can use Kiler's blade with any weapon.

But why would you? If you want an execute that is actually working well as an execute you wouldnt use it, even if "you can". Its like any choice rly, would you drink the dirty water or the clean one, you can drink either, but only one will actually taste good.

Not only is the scaling vastly worse on Killers blade, if you hit someone at 26% hp, if the target just heals 1k dmg just before you hit him, it will do squat for dmg, if you start using Executioner at around 40% hp it doesnt matter if he healed a few %, its still gonna deal tons of dmg compared to what Killers blade would.

The both skills are fine. I think you just missing the point. Execute scalles up to 400% which means it deals 400% more damage to target at 0%HP (it worth to use it ~ at 30%HP) where the Killer's blade deals 300% right after 25%HP.
Killer's blade just need a better timing. And it gives you the option to use it with any weapon.

Talonlord

Keep in mind that Executioner deals up to 400% increased damage, with the exact amount scaling based on how far belowe 50% hp the target is. From what I can tell the scaling is linear, meaning against a target at 25% hp Executioner deals "only" 200% increased damage compared to Killer Blade's 300%. Oh wait, Killer's Blade needs the target to be below 25%, a target exactly at 25% doesn't take increased damage; only from 24% onwards. But the point still stands that Executioner doesn't reach the same 300% increase until the target is down to 12,5% of their max hp.

In the end both have their pros and cons. Executioner is more reliable since it doesn't screw you over if the target's hp is slightly higher than intended, and the maximum damage against a very low-health target is higher. but Killer's Blade reaches it's full potency much soon and gives some passive crit chance just for being slotted, not to mention being usable with any weapon and even having a ranged morph that's also usable by magicka builds.

Necrotech_Master

with hybridization in effect, i could see killers blade being even less useful now that you can use the ranged mag morph on a stam toon

Tommy_The_Gun

Same with Turn Evil vs Mass Hysteria.

NB has many trash-tier skills like that. They are either completely useless, or out-matched by non-class skills (weapon, armour, world, guild etc).

Most of those "things" come from Elsweyr update. Necromancer class was introduced back then. New class had to sell well, so ZOS pretty much nerfed the **** out of the NB. It did not mattered if skill were strong or not - Necro was a similarly themed class, so it had to be better than NB in every aspect... and it was/is. Sure, NB since then received some buffs here & there - but those were mostly QOL & standardisation changes. Too little and too few and far between to make class good again. Class has never recovered after Elsweyr update.

Sure, NB has some decent or good skills, but it is maybe 2 - 4 class abilities out of the entire class toolkit. And the "good" NB skills (imho: Cloak, Death Stroke,Veiled Strike and Soul Shred) are very situational and not "obviously the best" when compared to alternatives.

Mayrael

Talonlord wrote: »

Keep in mind that Executioner deals up to 400% increased damage, with the exact amount scaling based on how far belowe 50% hp the target is. From what I can tell the scaling is linear, meaning against a target at 25% hp Executioner deals "only" 200% increased damage compared to Killer Blade's 300%. Oh wait, Killer's Blade needs the target to be below 25%, a target exactly at 25% doesn't take increased damage; only from 24% onwards. But the point still stands that Executioner doesn't reach the same 300% increase until the target is down to 12,5% of their max hp.

In the end both have their pros and cons. Executioner is more reliable since it doesn't screw you over if the target's hp is slightly higher than intended, and the maximum damage against a very low-health target is higher. but Killer's Blade reaches it's full potency much soon and gives some passive crit chance just for being slotted, not to mention being usable with any weapon and even having a ranged morph that's also usable by magicka builds.

Did you ever actually used both of those skills in PvP? Both killers blade and impale are trash skills, wonder why almost nobody use them? It's because PvP is not PvE, math is not the most important here, it's the utility and reliability. When I go for killing combo in PvP right after opener - HA+Incap+Med+Surprise I can start to spam executioner and if my enemy won't react fast enough by dodge or block heal he will be dead, because I can't go wrong with executioner as long as my enemy HP is below around 35-40% it will deal almost the same damage as my spamable not allowing for execute range escape.

With killers blade I need to drop my target below 25% and if I'll calculate it wrong - my hit will get blocked or it won't be crit, or some damage reduction kicks in, or hot ticks my GCD will be wasted because it would be better to use surprise attack.

Even though executioner at 24% may deal slightly lower damage, it's far more reliable tool to keep up the pressure. There is a reason nobody uses killers blade. You could see impale from time to time since it was the only execute magblade ever had but now it would be better to use executioner, though melee magblade is just a shadow of past glory right now and you won't see that soon.

Amottica

Hargam wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Hargam wrote: »

I think the point is that you can use Kiler's blade with any weapon.

But why would you? If you want an execute that is actually working well as an execute you wouldnt use it, even if "you can". Its like any choice rly, would you drink the dirty water or the clean one, you can drink either, but only one will actually taste good.

Not only is the scaling vastly worse on Killers blade, if you hit someone at 26% hp, if the target just heals 1k dmg just before you hit him, it will do squat for dmg, if you start using Executioner at around 40% hp it doesnt matter if he healed a few %, its still gonna deal tons of dmg compared to what Killers blade would.

The both skills are fine. I think you just missing the point. Execute scalles up to 400% which means it deals 400% more damage to target at 0%HP (it worth to use it ~ at 30%HP) where the Killer's blade deals 300% right after 25%HP.
Killer's blade just need a better timing. And it gives you the option to use it with any weapon.

Both posts are good points. The semantics in the description of the executioner makes all the difference.

olsborg

Mayrael wrote: »

With killers blade I need to drop my target below 25% and if I'll calculate it wrong - my hit will get blocked or it won't be crit, or some damage reduction kicks in, or hot ticks my GCD will be wasted because it would be better to use surprise attack.

This is exactly why i dont use killers blade in pvp, and wont until its changed somehow.

YandereGirlfriend

I don't think that I've seen Killer's Blade on a death recap in PvP in like over a year. Or more.

That should tell you everything you need to know about the skill.

Finedaible

Reverse Slash benefits from enchants or poisons though, and Reverse Slice is AoE. Two-hander kills also grant stamina recovery after a kill (Battle Rush), while Killer's Blade gives you a useless heal after kill and a meager 438 crit rating (2%) via passives. After Two-Hander cost reductions the executes both cost the same. In this day and meta, heal-on-kill is such a wasted perk that I would not miss losing in favor of something actually useful. For a class that is supposed to be a rogue/assassin, NB class dps output against single-targets is very much overshadowed by even AoE skills sometimes. Take for example the recent buff to Scorch where they gave Wardens BOTH Major and Minor Breach, ON A FREAKIN AOE SKILL, yet Mark Target - which is single target - got nothing except a pointless duration increase on its most-used morph...

Devs talk about power fantasy and class themes and such but there is none of that these days. Their almighty "set power-balance calculator" or w/e it is they are calling it these days is flawed and will never be a perfect metric of balance.

IonicKai

From a PVE perspective I would disagree as both are quite viable and one could actually make a case that the immediate speed up of killers blade would out weigh the total damage eclipse at very low health for executioner. Even more so for targets with small health pools as they won't be at the lower value long enough. As Necrotech_master pointed out I think it would make a lot more sense to consider using the mag morph for reliability but even then that depends on if you can sustain for the whole execute.

Now if the OP is referring to PVP I would agree that killers blade is less reliable but that's due to an entire set of reasons not just because of total damage potential. As stated before by total damage I'm pretty sure killers blade is stronger but players introduce other variables such as the ability to reactively heal or evade damage. Because of that the utility of executioner is more reliable simply because the range at which you get more damage than any other skill cast is much larger but that's not because killer blade is weak. It's just harder to predict. The best executes in pvp last I knew were mages wrath for sorcs and templar beam (that may have changed I haven't pvped in awhile). Templar beam much like executioner has that larger range of high damage and the sorc execute let's you cast preemptively then push the target to the low health required for the burst (utility). Again these are not necessarily better than killers blade by the numbers but are instead more reliable in a PvP situation and with limited bar slots are just higher desirability much like executioner.

merpins

One morph of the NB skill is a ranged execute. If you're playing at range, or you're not using 2-handed, then it's better. Don't really understand the argument here. If you're using 2-handed and have room on your bar, assuming 2-handed is your front bar, then the 2-handed execute is better. Otherwise, NB execute is better.

phaneub17_ESO

Might as well include Whirling Blades into the discussion.

Elrond87

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

with hybridization in effect, i could see killers blade being even less useful now that you can use the ranged mag morph on a stam toon

yea better if can sustain it

J18696

Yeah the lack of range this morph has with no real benefit the heal isn't really useful at all it would be better off with a higher scaling execute % perhaps

Brrrofski

Mayrael wrote: »

Talonlord wrote: »

Keep in mind that Executioner deals up to 400% increased damage, with the exact amount scaling based on how far belowe 50% hp the target is. From what I can tell the scaling is linear, meaning against a target at 25% hp Executioner deals "only" 200% increased damage compared to Killer Blade's 300%. Oh wait, Killer's Blade needs the target to be below 25%, a target exactly at 25% doesn't take increased damage; only from 24% onwards. But the point still stands that Executioner doesn't reach the same 300% increase until the target is down to 12,5% of their max hp.

In the end both have their pros and cons. Executioner is more reliable since it doesn't screw you over if the target's hp is slightly higher than intended, and the maximum damage against a very low-health target is higher. but Killer's Blade reaches it's full potency much soon and gives some passive crit chance just for being slotted, not to mention being usable with any weapon and even having a ranged morph that's also usable by magicka builds.

Did you ever actually used both of those skills in PvP? Both killers blade and impale are trash skills, wonder why almost nobody use them? It's because PvP is not PvE, math is not the most important here, it's the utility and reliability. When I go for killing combo in PvP right after opener - HA+Incap+Med+Surprise I can start to spam executioner and if my enemy won't react fast enough by dodge or block heal he will be dead, because I can't go wrong with executioner as long as my enemy HP is below around 35-40% it will deal almost the same damage as my spamable not allowing for execute range escape.

With killers blade I need to drop my target below 25% and if I'll calculate it wrong - my hit will get blocked or it won't be crit, or some damage reduction kicks in, or hot ticks my GCD will be wasted because it would be better to use surprise attack.

Even though executioner at 24% may deal slightly lower damage, it's far more reliable tool to keep up the pressure. There is a reason nobody uses killers blade. You could see impale from time to time since it was the only execute magblade ever had but now it would be better to use executioner, though melee magblade is just a shadow of past glory right now and you won't see that soon.

This is the main reason killer's blade loses out.

If my enemy gets a heal off and jump to 26% health, killer's blade is useless and I wasted a skill. Meanwhile, it makes no difference with executioner. It's still going to hit hard and is worth casting.

olsborg

Brrrofski wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Talonlord wrote: »

Keep in mind that Executioner deals up to 400% increased damage, with the exact amount scaling based on how far belowe 50% hp the target is. From what I can tell the scaling is linear, meaning against a target at 25% hp Executioner deals "only" 200% increased damage compared to Killer Blade's 300%. Oh wait, Killer's Blade needs the target to be below 25%, a target exactly at 25% doesn't take increased damage; only from 24% onwards. But the point still stands that Executioner doesn't reach the same 300% increase until the target is down to 12,5% of their max hp.

In the end both have their pros and cons. Executioner is more reliable since it doesn't screw you over if the target's hp is slightly higher than intended, and the maximum damage against a very low-health target is higher. but Killer's Blade reaches it's full potency much soon and gives some passive crit chance just for being slotted, not to mention being usable with any weapon and even having a ranged morph that's also usable by magicka builds.

Did you ever actually used both of those skills in PvP? Both killers blade and impale are trash skills, wonder why almost nobody use them? It's because PvP is not PvE, math is not the most important here, it's the utility and reliability. When I go for killing combo in PvP right after opener - HA+Incap+Med+Surprise I can start to spam executioner and if my enemy won't react fast enough by dodge or block heal he will be dead, because I can't go wrong with executioner as long as my enemy HP is below around 35-40% it will deal almost the same damage as my spamable not allowing for execute range escape.

With killers blade I need to drop my target below 25% and if I'll calculate it wrong - my hit will get blocked or it won't be crit, or some damage reduction kicks in, or hot ticks my GCD will be wasted because it would be better to use surprise attack.

Even though executioner at 24% may deal slightly lower damage, it's far more reliable tool to keep up the pressure. There is a reason nobody uses killers blade. You could see impale from time to time since it was the only execute magblade ever had but now it would be better to use executioner, though melee magblade is just a shadow of past glory right now and you won't see that soon.

This is the main reason killer's blade loses out.

If my enemy gets a heal off and jump to 26% health, killer's blade is useless and I wasted a skill. Meanwhile, it makes no difference with executioner. It's still going to hit hard and is worth casting.

Yea, basicly the essence of why killers blade is not used, and executioner is in pvp

Fhritz

Stamblade main here, Killer's blade is mostly PvE oriented where Executionner is more PvP oriented. Here's a graph based on flat value of both skill https://prnt.sc/wg24j4xu-HWe

divnyi

Ranged version loses to JBeam and melee... just loses.

Melee version would be cool if it was undodgeable and unblockable. Yes you need to time it still, but now it pays off.

Mayrael

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

One morph of the NB skill is a ranged execute. If you're playing at range, or you're not using 2-handed, then it's better. Don't really understand the argument here. If you're using 2-handed and have room on your bar, assuming 2-handed is your front bar, then the 2-handed execute is better. Otherwise, NB execute is better.

Ranged execute? Hmmm... Radiant Opression still is like 3 times better than Impale because it has way better scaling and its undodgeable, at range that small channel time doesn't matter when your enemy can't dodge it. What else do we have? Oh Mages Wrath/Furry of sorc? This one has worse scaling that's true you need to bring enemy to 20% but it has delayed burst/autocast implemented, pretty awesome skill when you ask me, especially for bursting people down, you know start with execute and then go for your combo, if you succeed it autofires usually leaving no counterplay.

It's funny that "assassin" archetype has the worst executes in the game.

MashmalloMan

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

with hybridization in effect, i could see killers blade being even less useful now that you can use the ranged mag morph on a stam toon

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm thinking of years of patch notes at this point, but ranged projectiles have a minimum travel time of around 200-300ms, so even if you're in melee range, it's incredibly easy to dodge.

So I would say the choice is a little more nuanced than what it intially appears to be.

Talonlord

Mayrael wrote: »

Did you ever actually used both of those skills in PvP? Both killers blade and impale are trash skills, wonder why almost nobody use them? It's because PvP is not PvE, math is not the most important here, it's the utility and reliability. When I go for killing combo in PvP right after opener - HA+Incap+Med+Surprise I can start to spam executioner and if my enemy won't react fast enough by dodge or block heal he will be dead, because I can't go wrong with executioner as long as my enemy HP is below around 35-40% it will deal almost the same damage as my spamable not allowing for execute range escape.

With killers blade I need to drop my target below 25% and if I'll calculate it wrong - my hit will get blocked or it won't be crit, or some damage reduction kicks in, or hot ticks my GCD will be wasted because it would be better to use surprise attack.

Even though executioner at 24% may deal slightly lower damage, it's far more reliable tool to keep up the pressure. There is a reason nobody uses killers blade. You could see impale from time to time since it was the only execute magblade ever had but now it would be better to use executioner, though melee magblade is just a shadow of past glory right now and you won't see that soon.

Here's the thing. The original post made no mention of pvp, and a couple posts later it could be inferred from the mention of a target healing up, but even then it wasn't explicitly stated to be exclusively about pvp. The original post was also worded as though Killer's Blade had no redeeming qualities, but it does so I pointed them out, it mentioned Executioner "deals so much more dmg" which is only somewhat true below 12% (and above 24%, but that's the reliability point).

Both skills have pros and cons, and one of the major pros of Executioner is the reliability which I can understand is a far more important factor for pvp than it is for pve, but so long as the post doesn't clarify that he's exclusively talking about pvp and talks as though Killer's Blade is a universaly useless skill in every aspect of the game, I feel justified in using arguments outside of pvp in its defense. After all, I'm not complaining that Race Against Time is useless because Barbed Trap is so much better for Minor Force and who needs Major Expedition anyways? I understand that some skills are simply more usefull to pvp than pve or vice versa.

I feel like IonicKai made my intended points better than I did by drawing attention to the fact that the OP just assumed that either everybody understands by default that it is exclusively talking about pvp, or that it applies to the entire game, both of which are bold assumptions to make.

Necrotech_Master

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

with hybridization in effect, i could see killers blade being even less useful now that you can use the ranged mag morph on a stam toon

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm thinking of years of patch notes at this point, but ranged projectiles have a minimum travel time of around 200-300ms, so even if you're in melee range, it's incredibly easy to dodge.

So I would say the choice is a little more nuanced than what it intially appears to be.

probably, im just looking at the utility of it being ranged (at least 36 meter in cyrodiil)

i think i would get use out of this using it in a combo of meteor + assassins scourge + ranged execute if the previous 2 skills failed to do the job but they were close to death

if they dont block the meteor, and were even moderately squishy, that would almost straight up kill them because they would still be caught in the knock up animation of the meteor

PvP_Exploiter

Unless scaling has changed since last time I checked.

Executioner deals more damage than Suprise Attack at ~37% HP
Killers Blade deals more damage than Executioner at 25% HP
Execution deals more damage that Killers Blade at ~11% HP

So the window where KB is more effect is essentially half of execute range, and is useless if they heal above 25%.
Usually if an enemy is below 25% they're dead anyway, so it's the more damage above that which makes Executioner a more ideal choice.

DW is undodgable which makes me my favourite and imo best on a NB, because all of your other damage is dodgable.