Yuck to Druid's Braid 2.0

Sluggy

This set had me somewhat excited when I first saw it revealed. I love max stat sets like these and it seemed like it could provide a great deal of utility to many variety of builds. However, the one great problem was that there was simply too much opportunity cost to wear more than 4 pieces in most cases. My suggestion had been to significantly ramp up the value of the last three lines, something closer to 3k each.

I was excited to see this was so quickly addressed in the patch notes this week however upon getting into lthe PTS and checking out I was very dismayed: The 1-4 piece bonus has now been drastically reduced to the point that I would not consider wearing it at all. Just for fun I tried out a complete 12-piece set and it simply isn't impressing me. The stats aren't much better than what I can get on live right now and with drastically reduced weapon damage, crit rate, mobility, and sustain.

My suggestion would be to start at a value a bit less than trainee, say 75% of it's stats, but ramp up every three stages so that the stats at 12 pieces are a good 25% more than what the pts currently shows. Does anyone have similar feelings about the changes to this set? If so, any better suggestions for fixes?

EDIT: My personal feeling is that this set should be a least slightly better than Imperial Physique when at the full 12 pieces, otherwise, what's the point?

Dagoth_Rac

Yes. Wearing pieces beyond 5, and thus impacting your ability to wield the common 5+5+2 setup, should come with some nice advantages. You are passing up various unique and powerful 5-piece bonuses for pure stats. The stats should be good. I would be fine with a reduction in the 1-to-5 bonuses, but the extended bonuses should be pretty powerful.

LeHarrt91

Yes, I would have thought they would buff the last few bonuses, since wearing 11 pieces and using Death Dealers Fete would result in more stats.

MashmalloMan

Can we get specifics? I have no idea where the crafting station is.

Imo, the first 2-4 pieces should match any other set so Trainee still has its place.

I won't comment on the rest as I haven't seen the scaling.

Tannus15

Druid's braid would be better if it was tri stats for the last 3 so that you're not "punished" on max stam for using a mythic.

Personally I think it would be better overall if it was tri stats all the way down, increasing in power from 5pc on, but maybe that's just me.

I'm really happy this sets exists, it gives me hope that we might see something outside the 5pc / 3pc / 2pc sets we currently have, especially as crafted sets, but damn that made this one boring.

MashmalloMan

Tannus15 wrote: »

Druid's braid would be better if it was tri stats for the last 3 so that you're not "punished" on max stam for using a mythic.

Personally I think it would be better overall if it was tri stats all the way down, increasing in power from 5pc on, but maybe that's just me.

I'm really happy this sets exists, it gives me hope that we might see something outside the 5pc / 3pc / 2pc sets we currently have, especially as crafted sets, but damn that made this one boring.

That is a fantastic idea.

I was pretty disappointed that the 2 piece was mag like Trainee.. doesn't seem like they gave the context of their own gear any thought. Theres no reason for a Stam player to invest 2 into either of these, they need to go 1 or at least 3, while mag can do 1+1 or 2+2, etc.

5piece + onward, you're committed and should be rewarded for every piece you get instead of having to hit milestones for the stat you care about.

tsaescishoeshiner

It would make sense if the 6-10 piece bonuses were buffed to match the benefit of a second 5-piece set, and the 11-12 piece bonuses were buffed to compete with a monster set or mythic. A lot of stam & magicka recovery on the last 2 pieces could be nice.

Sluggy

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

It would make sense if the 6-10 piece bonuses were buffed to match the benefit of a second 5-piece set, and the 11-12 piece bonuses were buffed to compete with a monster set or mythic. A lot of stam & magicka recovery on the last 2 pieces could be nice.

I think that misses the point a bit with the set. It's meant to be raw attribute stats which have fallen out of popularity lately due to the lack of need and benefit they give. This set could be a way to bolster that style of play if done right and a way to fill in gaps in other builds as well.

Tannus15 wrote: »

Druid's braid would be better if it was tri stats for the last 3 so that you're not "punished" on max stam for using a mythic.

Personally I think it would be better overall if it was tri stats all the way down, increasing in power from 5pc on, but maybe that's just me.

I'm really happy this sets exists, it gives me hope that we might see something outside the 5pc / 3pc / 2pc sets we currently have, especially as crafted sets, but damn that made this one boring.

This sounds like a really fantastic idea. I wouldn't mind if the first three lines were still hp, mag, and stam in that order and then it switched to ramping tri-stats the rest of the way. This way it doesn't purely outshine the tri-stat or bi-stat monster sets.

xylena_lazarow

What are the new values?

PeacefulAnarchy

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

What are the new values?

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Can we get specifics? I have no idea where the crafting station is.

Imo, the first 2-4 pieces should match any other set so Trainee still has its place.

I won't comment on the rest as I haven't seen the scaling.

Crafting station is on Amenos.
Gold:
1206,1096,1096,1206, then 1565,1565,1722 repeat

MentalxHammer

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

What are the new values?

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Can we get specifics? I have no idea where the crafting station is.

Imo, the first 2-4 pieces should match any other set so Trainee still has its place.

I won't comment on the rest as I haven't seen the scaling.

Crafting station is on Amenos.
Gold:
1206,1096,1096,1206, then 1565,1565,1722 repeat

What garbage, we can’t even use it as a crafted replacement for 1x trainee anymore; terrible change.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

Druid's braid would be better if it was tri stats for the last 3 so that you're not "punished" on max stam for using a mythic.

Personally I think it would be better overall if it was tri stats all the way down, increasing in power from 5pc on, but maybe that's just me.

I'm really happy this sets exists, it gives me hope that we might see something outside the 5pc / 3pc / 2pc sets we currently have, especially as crafted sets, but damn that made this one boring.

That is a fantastic idea.

I was pretty disappointed that the 2 piece was mag like Trainee.. doesn't seem like they gave the context of their own gear any thought. Theres no reason for a Stam player to invest 2 into either of these, they need to go 1 or at least 3, while mag can do 1+1 or 2+2, etc.

5piece + onward, you're committed and should be rewarded for every piece you get instead of having to hit milestones for the stat you care about.

I also agree it’s a huge disappointment that the 2x bonus is max mag, it would be such a better addition to the game if the 2x bonus was max stam, and would allow for much better theorycrafting.

Necrotech_Master

well this change certainly makes this set way less useful

doing a quick calculation of total stat gain with this set pre/post changes:

pre-change:

• max hp: 6160
• max stam: 5604
• max mag: 5604

post change:

• max hp: 5856 (change of -304)
• max stam: 5791 (change of +187)
• max mag: 5791 (change of +187)

so in total, its slightly more mag/stam, but slightly less hp, but because the pieces 1-3 are so low now, there is no point trying to use this as a filler unless you want to double dip into hp with 1pc trainee + 1 pc of druids, but if you wanted the 1-2 pc filler set, trainee is still going to be far better

MashmalloMan

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

well this change certainly makes this set way less useful

doing a quick calculation of total stat gain with this set pre/post changes:

pre-change:

• max hp: 6160
• max stam: 5604
• max mag: 5604

post change:

• max hp: 5856 (change of -304)
• max stam: 5791 (change of +187)
• max mag: 5791 (change of +187)

so in total, its slightly more mag/stam, but slightly less hp, but because the pieces 1-3 are so low now, there is no point trying to use this as a filler unless you want to double dip into hp with 1pc trainee + 1 pc of druids, but if you wanted the 1-2 pc filler set, trainee is still going to be far better

Basically.

For mag, 2x trainee trumps 1x/1x because you can just move stats around.

For stam, 1x trainee/1x braid is really the only option, can't convert your off resource.

An example of where this is viable:

• 5x set active all the time
• 2x ability altering weapons front
• 2x ability altering weapons back
• 1x jewelry mythic
• 2x monster set

This leaves 2 spaces, you can put 1x trainee chest, 1x Druid Jewelry. It ends up as more stat density than something like 2x Agility or Endurance Jewelry.

Necrotech_Master

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

well this change certainly makes this set way less useful

doing a quick calculation of total stat gain with this set pre/post changes:

pre-change:

• max hp: 6160
• max stam: 5604
• max mag: 5604

post change:

• max hp: 5856 (change of -304)
• max stam: 5791 (change of +187)
• max mag: 5791 (change of +187)

so in total, its slightly more mag/stam, but slightly less hp, but because the pieces 1-3 are so low now, there is no point trying to use this as a filler unless you want to double dip into hp with 1pc trainee + 1 pc of druids, but if you wanted the 1-2 pc filler set, trainee is still going to be far better

Basically.

For mag, 2x trainee trumps 1x/1x because you can just move stats around.

For stam, 1x trainee/1x braid is really the only option, can't convert your off resource.

An example of where this is viable:

• 5x set active all the time
• 2x ability altering weapons front
• 2x ability altering weapons back
• 1x jewelry mythic
• 2x monster set

This leaves 2 spaces, you can put 1x trainee chest, 1x Druid Jewelry. It ends up as more stat density than something like 2x Agility or Endurance Jewelry.

that is basically what i already do now for toons running that kind of setup lol

EF321

At least I won't have to trash my golden trainee 1-pieces, there's good in this change.

Sluggy

EF321 wrote: »

At least I won't have to trash my golden trainee 1-pieces, there's good in this change.

You didn't have to trash it before.

EF321

Sluggy wrote: »

EF321 wrote: »

At least I won't have to trash my golden trainee 1-pieces, there's good in this change.

You didn't have to trash it before.

First version of braid was straight upgrade as 1-piece filler, more HP (and any style too).

doesurmindglow

Yeah for the first week of PTS it looked like this could fill a neat little niche where 3 pieces of trainee aren't always enough, or where you might run something even weirder like a 7-5 build or a frontbar 7, backbar 9-(monster)-(arena weapon)-mythic build

Week 2 quickly disabused us of that notion and swiftly nerfed it into oblivion; it's now basically a pure meme and nothing more viable than that. The "lots of pieces" bonuses aren't competitive with other traditional stat-based sets, not really. The lower end bonuses make it useless in the "crazy combo" niche it might have filled.

What we're left with is something that'll be useful to fulfill crafting writs and nothing more.

Sluggy

EF321 wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

EF321 wrote: »

At least I won't have to trash my golden trainee 1-pieces, there's good in this change.

You didn't have to trash it before.

First version of braid was straight upgrade as 1-piece filler, more HP (and any style too).

Okay, you got me on the style thing. But are you really gonna throw away gold gear for 116 more hp? Besides, some of us do in fact wear it as a 2 and 3 pieces, which is where trainee made up the difference if you wanted to count it as such. As well, some of us were considering it as a second hp filler, a role it is now basically unfit for. Regardless, I even said myself in the description above that I don't have a problem with it starting slightly lower than trainee for the first three lines but with the new changes it's not even worth it for another filler at that point. And regardless of the changes wearing additional pieces is still as bad an idea as it was before the change.

They had the right intention but as usual missed the mark by considering it numerically on a spreadsheet rather than practically through gameplay.

EF321

Sluggy wrote: »

EF321 wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

EF321 wrote: »

At least I won't have to trash my golden trainee 1-pieces, there's good in this change.

You didn't have to trash it before.

First version of braid was straight upgrade as 1-piece filler, more HP (and any style too).

Okay, you got me on the style thing. But are you really gonna throw away gold gear for 116 more hp? Besides, some of us do in fact wear it as a 2 and 3 pieces, which is where trainee made up the difference if you wanted to count it as such. As well, some of us were considering it as a second hp filler, a role it is now basically unfit for. Regardless, I even said myself in the description above that I don't have a problem with it starting slightly lower than trainee for the first three lines but with the new changes it's not even worth it for another filler at that point. And regardless of the changes wearing additional pieces is still as bad an idea as it was before the change.

They had the right intention but as usual missed the mark by considering it numerically on a spreadsheet rather than practically through gameplay.

Yes I would upgrade for 116 HP, as it is(was) straight upgrade with no downsides. I've been in enough situations where I survived with double digit HP to learn that every point matters.
It also is raw max xp, before all the % increases, like undaunted, heavy armor, toughness etc.

the1andonlyskwex

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

well this change certainly makes this set way less useful

doing a quick calculation of total stat gain with this set pre/post changes:

pre-change:

• max hp: 6160
• max stam: 5604
• max mag: 5604

post change:

• max hp: 5856 (change of -304)
• max stam: 5791 (change of +187)
• max mag: 5791 (change of +187)

so in total, its slightly more mag/stam, but slightly less hp, but because the pieces 1-3 are so low now, there is no point trying to use this as a filler unless you want to double dip into hp with 1pc trainee + 1 pc of druids, but if you wanted the 1-2 pc filler set, trainee is still going to be far better

Druid's Braid isn't supposed to be a filler set. It's supposed to be a set where you equip 6+ pieces.

I don't really have an opinion on whether the 6-12 piece bonuses are enough to make it viable, but I think it makes sense for 1-3 to be weaker than Trainee, and 4-5 to be weaker than normal 5 piece sets.

Necrotech_Master

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

well this change certainly makes this set way less useful

doing a quick calculation of total stat gain with this set pre/post changes:

pre-change:

• max hp: 6160
• max stam: 5604
• max mag: 5604

post change:

• max hp: 5856 (change of -304)
• max stam: 5791 (change of +187)
• max mag: 5791 (change of +187)

so in total, its slightly more mag/stam, but slightly less hp, but because the pieces 1-3 are so low now, there is no point trying to use this as a filler unless you want to double dip into hp with 1pc trainee + 1 pc of druids, but if you wanted the 1-2 pc filler set, trainee is still going to be far better

Druid's Braid isn't supposed to be a filler set. It's supposed to be a set where you equip 6+ pieces.

I don't really have an opinion on whether the 6-12 piece bonuses are enough to make it viable, but I think it makes sense for 1-3 to be weaker than Trainee, and 4-5 to be weaker than normal 5 piece sets.

i never really saw this set as more than filler, or basically a good training set to put on a low lvl toon because you can actually just make 12 pieces of it while your at the set station

the max bonus is not good enough to justify giving up the valuable components of monster, 5 pc set, or arena weapons

but this nerf that loads more of the bonus on the last half of set makes it useless as a filler because almost any other set would be better (agility/willpower or trainee)

JoSePHRiNG

I was expecting it to get better each piece after the 6th one, increased per 3 lines, and in the last 12th line would give an extra 3 lines as well like

12th piece Magicka +
12th piece Health Magicka Stamina

To further make it attractive.

kojou

The main issue is there is generally no real reason to run more than 4 pieces, so if those are lower then it has not point. If you have room for 5 pieces then you are going to run a 5 piece set. With trainee covering the needs for 3 pieces worth of filling the only niche is if you need exactly 4 and you want them all to be max stats, and you don't mind 2 health bonuses.

In order to at least be in consideration vs other options (Trainee, Alfiq, Draugr, Shacklebreaker) it needs to be at least 1200 for the Magicka and Stamina Bonuses for the first 4 pieces. Otherwise you might as well run one of the other sets and get more of the stats you actually want.

I don't really care that much as it won't be BiS in any situation either way, but it should at least be tuned to be competitive with the other options.

the1andonlyskwex

Way too many people in this thread are missing the obvious (and dev stated) intent of this set.

It's not supposed to be a filler that you squeeze in around your mythic, monster, and 5 piece sets as some sort of 5-2-1-4 scheme. It's a set that is specifically designed to be worn with 6+ pieces, while being worse than alternatives with 5 or less pieces.

The 1-4 piece bonuses are bad by design, not by some failure of balance by the devs. The metric we should be judging it by is whether the 1 through 10 piece bonuses are cumulatively good enough to be better than two separate 5 piece sets.

That said, even by an appropriate metric I think the set has issues with being too unfocused. The total stats provided are fine, but they're spread so thin across health, magicka, and stamina that the resulting build isn't really competitive anywhere.

GuildedLilly

Tannus15 wrote: »

Druid's braid would be better if it was tri stats for the last 3 so that you're not "punished" on max stam for using a mythic.

Personally I think it would be better overall if it was tri stats all the way down, increasing in power from 5pc on, but maybe that's just me.

I'm really happy this sets exists, it gives me hope that we might see something outside the 5pc / 3pc / 2pc sets we currently have, especially as crafted sets, but damn that made this one boring.

Add me to the chorus that thinks this is a GREAT idea. TBS has faded into obscurity--I think this was the Dev's attempt to revive viability and interest in crafted sets by bringing in something new for those who've taken the time to learn the traits; kinda a reward for the immense amount of time it takes to get there. However, they missed the mark in it's current iteration. There's simply no reason to run Druid in it's current form (especially at max pieces), you'd lose too much DPS, function, and buffs from other sets you could be running-- and even when not at max, it's still outperformed by Trainee, Alfiq, Draugr.... then there's mythics and monsters.

Please ZOS-- give your crafters something to smile about and get Druid (especially the max peice bonus) up to par with what other sets can do. Tannus has an excellent suggestion, and it would be a lovely reward for the time it took to learn everything needed to craft max pieces.

divnyi

@the1andonlyskwex then it should give at more stats than raw 5/10/12 set pieces that just provide raw stats.
Why more? Because generally there is no point in going both pools.
Shacklebreaker 5pc gives more pools combined than any narrow pool set, like Alfiq.

Ideally also give tristat every level, because giving magicka first is unfair for stam.

Necrotech_Master

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Way too many people in this thread are missing the obvious (and dev stated) intent of this set.

It's not supposed to be a filler that you squeeze in around your mythic, monster, and 5 piece sets as some sort of 5-2-1-4 scheme. It's a set that is specifically designed to be worn with 6+ pieces, while being worse than alternatives with 5 or less pieces.

The 1-4 piece bonuses are bad by design, not by some failure of balance by the devs. The metric we should be judging it by is whether the 1 through 10 piece bonuses are cumulatively good enough to be better than two separate 5 piece sets.

That said, even by an appropriate metric I think the set has issues with being too unfocused. The total stats provided are fine, but they're spread so thin across health, magicka, and stamina that the resulting build isn't really competitive anywhere.

i understand the intent, but with the current bonuses it definitely does not surpass that

as mentioned other "raw stat" sets like shacklebreaker are already better than this as a 5pc, so there is no point running more than 4 pc of this set

divnyi wrote: »

@the1andonlyskwex then it should give at more stats than raw 5/10/12 set pieces that just provide raw stats.
Why more? Because generally there is no point in going both pools.
Shacklebreaker 5pc gives more pools combined than any narrow pool set, like Alfiq.

Ideally also give tristat every level, because giving magicka first is unfair for stam.

i also agree with this, if thhey wanted this to be a super generic set, every single bonus would be tristat bonus, but could be balanced to still give the same amount of total stats they want to give by the 12th piece

it would at least differentiate it from existing sets

ADarklore

I think ZOS really needs to re-think this set... they say they want to make it a set which incentivizes using above 5 pcs... yet they nerf the lower number pcs but not buff the higher... which in turn makes the set entirely worthless to use with ANY pcs. If they TRULY want to make this set viable as they envisioned, then they need to seriously buff the highest set pc buff to make it actually worthwhile. As it is currently, it's now entirely worthless IMO.

Iriidius

Why make a Set that is like trainee with 12 pieces? Why not extend trainee to 12 pieces? It is the only Set new players get in Starter zone, was a 5 piece somewhen and probably many players have more than 3 pieces of it. Trainee as the first set players get should be more unique than some new crafted set from a chapter.
And reducing the first boni to increase the later boni also doesnt make more sense. Why do you have to eliminate its use as a filler to make it a good 12 piece set? Why cant it be both? Do the 6k ressoursses get more if you get more from the later boni than from the first ones? No, it is not more total ressoursses you get. Do you want to make sure people really wear full set and not just 9 pieces, a monster and a mythic? But why shouldnt they do that? Isnt it „play how you want“? Would just make trainee 12 pieces and give druids something else. Or make trainee craftable insteat of druid. Trainee as the first set that can be found AND crafted. Or make druids a stamina version of trainee. Or make druids just give weapon dmg 129 each piece, 171 for 5th and 10th piece and 300th for last.

Sluggy

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Way too many people in this thread are missing the obvious (and dev stated) intent of this set.

It's not supposed to be a filler that you squeeze in around your mythic, monster, and 5 piece sets as some sort of 5-2-1-4 scheme. It's a set that is specifically designed to be worn with 6+ pieces, while being worse than alternatives with 5 or less pieces.

The 1-4 piece bonuses are bad by design, not by some failure of balance by the devs. The metric we should be judging it by is whether the 1 through 10 piece bonuses are cumulatively good enough to be better than two separate 5 piece sets.

That said, even by an appropriate metric I think the set has issues with being too unfocused. The total stats provided are fine, but they're spread so thin across health, magicka, and stamina that the resulting build isn't really competitive anywhere.

Lots of things get used outside of their intended domain. This is what allows for creative builds. Anyway, they missed the mark then because there is no way in hell I would ever consider giving up literally every single other possible set in the game to wear this. Arena weapons, trinities, trainee, 5-pieces, monster sets. All of it. Stuff that gives, better damage, crit, defense, sustain, and all kinds of whacky trickster playstyles for some raw attribute stats - arguably the weakest thing to min/max with the current iteration of the game.