What's going on with ESO's Development?

Wolfpaw

DagenHawk wrote: »

xXSilverDragonXx wrote: »

ESO is basically a cash cow at this point. I don't think they have any intention of making large changes to anything or even to care about smaller bugs that people can live with. And I don't think we will see more classes. Maybe we might get one more. Possibly two. But if you look at the design on the character creator, the six fit nicely. Almost as if that was their intended stopping point. I think if people keep pressing and sales drop they might add another class. I just don't think the game is going to get the TLC we would hope for.

Not white Knighting here, but...

Every successful MMO is a Cash Cow, also when fans cheer after a dev calls a bug that has been around since beta a "beloved feature" they sorta deserve what they get.

As for TLC I think yearly content (dose anyone else even try that?) may not be TLC but it certainly is more than most MMO's has.

Honestly every other Western MMO with the possible exception of GW2 is either a dumpster fire or dead right now...ESO gets more than most in the way of attention...given the current market it's all we can hope for. I mean sure you can stamp your foot and yell "not good enough" but you would just look silly and nothing will change.

Still baffled on the business decision to not go to console during alpha/beta GW2...with all the inconveniences having an mmorpg on console, ANet would have made a killing in profit/revenue.

Hopefully Riot doesn't make the same mistake on next gen.

Amottica

Zenimax had already communicated that they would be adding fewer system, read less with chapters, while they work to improve performance. The reason they gave us that they have added a lot of systems to the game over the year which contributes to a he sever load and performance. They also stated the “solution, they’d start working on this year.

That’s the communication OP is looking for. Details about what will next year and beyond will not happen for marketing and smart business reasons As things change.

sarahthes

I'm really pleased with the combat changes tbh. I'm really enjoying the hybrid meta and the dust hasn't even settled from that yet. The CP and set changes are enough, as they basically seem to rein in the ultra high damage we got from hybridization to more reasonable levels.

As a PvE main who got tired of having to farm new gear and power level new skills/skill lines every 3 months, I'm glad this season's changes will be limited to mostly just swapping around a few champion points. With the meta not shifting much, going hard on the new trial won't be nearly as complicated.

Wolfpaw

Gotta give credit where credit's due, I really like the adjustment to LoS and off-balance changes. Most updates to underused morphs look good. I hope we see more of this type of work (Warden please).

I still don't have a reason to buy High Isle, but always can find another way to support.

NJ ZOS

VaranisArano

ADarklore wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

As for other Development issues:

In the background, ZOS is rearchitecting their code and refreshing the server. This is invisible work that we players won't see until it can be tested Live.

ZOS has mentioned that they are limited by older consoles. Here's a segment from a recent interview by Rich Lambert.
Q: Just to see if we can dispel one of the myths running within The Elder Scrolls Online community, is it true that you'd have problems introducing any additional skill trees due to the limited memory of old-generation consoles (PlayStation 4, Xbox One)?

A: "Nothing is impossible. I mean, we do have to be careful. There's only so much memory on those consoles for sure and we have to be smart about what we do. We do have a focus on performance and making the game run really well. So there's a balance."
https://wccftech.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-high-isle-preview-qa-fsr-1-0-support-card-game-and-much-more/


Finally, I think I'm noticing a trend where ZOS is starting to treat add-ons to previous systems as "value added" to Chapters. Antiquities and new Companions are both evergreen content that ZOS is adding on as value to High Isle.

Marketing Department: "Hey, look, you get two new Companions with High Isle! Totally worth paying the same $40 you did for Blackwood, and we'll even throw in a new card game!"

For some players, that's sufficient value added. For some players (like me), a reskinned Companion with different quirks is not a new feature so it doesn't add value to the Chapter. (I feel like the French Knight from Monty Python's Holy Grail. "We've already got one.")

Tales of Tribute seems set up as the same type of evergreen content where new cards get added to future content.

Tales of Tribute might be successful, in which case it'll probably be like Antiquities where the cards are added to new content as value added. Buy this DLC and you get powerful new gear sparkly new cards!

If it's not successful, I suspect it might follow the same path as Battlegrounds which was made a base game feature due to the lack of a competitive population.


So between the technical limitations from consoles, the ongoing behind the scenes work on the code, and ZOS' new emphasis on Chapter features that can have evergreen content added to increase the value of future DLC and Chapters, I'm not sure I'm expecting to see many more "one purchase and done" features like new classes.

In regards to BOLDED... I'm glad you aren't the one making decisions for the company. Just because you don't use or appreciate Companions doesn't mean a huge percent of the population doesn't. They are not 'reskinned', they have different voice actors, different skills, different likes/dislikes... that's not a reskin, that's something NEW. Just saying.

Just to clarify, I'm happy to have new Companions for the people who don't use Mirri or Bastian. I already use Mirri.

But the whole premise of paying cash for Chapters is that we are getting a new gameplay changing feature in addition to all the stuff that's a DLC.

Two new Companions is not a new feature. It's an extension of last year's new feature.

The only new feature here is the card game.

zaria

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

While skill hybridization isn't a new system per se, it is a major new paradigm. I'm happy we're not seeing big swings in skill adjustment like during the Elsweyr year, where DoTs were majorly buffed and then drastically nerfed from one patch to the next. People complained a LOT about major system-wide changes, and constantly talked about "build fatigue" because of having to change their build constantly. Slower changes sounds like the dev response to that. I don't care about more patch notes, just better combat.

They stated their combat goal for High Isle is to balance underperforming skill morphs, which is a good change and makes a lot of sense right after hybridization.

I agree that I would love an update about combat and where it's going. Two-three years ago, they began skill standardization, and we haven't gotten new combat skills lines since. Presumably so that they could overhaul the system first and make it easier to balance. An update on the roadmap would be great.

Has anyone tried the changes on PTS?

I agree a lot, switching around the meta just to change it is jarring.
The hybridization is nice I say and its an clear direction.

Jaimeh

Amottica wrote: »

Zenimax had already communicated that they would be adding fewer system, read less with chapters, while they work to improve performance.

Yeah, but that decrease in features should also be reflected in the prices and that has not been the case.

VaranisArano

Jaimeh wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Zenimax had already communicated that they would be adding fewer system, read less with chapters, while they work to improve performance.

Yeah, but that decrease in features should also be reflected in the prices and that has not been the case.

Yep. Morrowind with the Warden and Battlegrounds cost $40. When ZOS released Summerset with only two new skill lines, it cost $30.

So that's my benchmark.

Destai

For years people have complained about the frequency of large scale changes, and now they're dialing it back, taking a slower approach. I think resetting the pace is going to be good for them and the game at large.

xaraan

My thoughts...

* I don't mind giant combat changes not being dumped on us endlessly. Having to relearn/rebuild characters every other patch was pretty lame. I'm ok with fine-tuning/balance work, but we don't need everything changed up majorly every year in the basics of the game.

* The chapters have definitely gotten smaller every year. From more dead areas in the zones, to more streamlined designs of trials and dungeons (I mean, it's convenient that every bad guy follows a similar formula for stocking their hideouts). But the use of mini-games like antiquities and now the card game is just a way for them to add a time-eating activity that will feel like content (and that enough people will enjoy to distract from those that don't) to the game with less work on their part for both ongoing balance and server load of something like adding a new class or skill line. Again - the theme is formula - make it simple to plan out and execute, which is probably solid business wise for showing your bosses what you are doing to make a buck without the hassle of actually being truly creative.

* I don't care about the work from home situation. We've all had to deal with the pandemic (well, I assume all, at least most of us have) in various ways. In the end, are they still charging full price for something they are selling? If they are, then there is nothing wrong with us expecting full service for what we are being sold and not half an item + an excuse. They've said the new chapter is just as big as any other though, so we'll see.

* At this point, I'd expect nothing to change. If you are getting something out of the game, i.e. getting your money's worth, then it's worth sticking around even if the rest is lackluster. My feelings are the game is in its coasting stage, they will follow this formula for the most part until they turn off the lights. We won't see any new classes, races, weapons, etc. (unless they ditch last gen console support - which won't happen anytime soon). So in place of that we'll get stuff like mini-games - easy on the server, easy on the design, and good time-wasters for those that like them. The rest of us will have to make due with the same set of dungeon packs and same zones with whatever "dark anchor" like events, padlocked interiors everywhere, mobs spaced perfectly apart, a few new crafted sets and drops sets, etc. BUT, with all that being said, I still feel like I get enough enjoyment out of it for what I put into it, so I coast along with them. (It will always be a game of "what could have been?" to me though).

* The only real question left in the air and what might break the line of money's worth for me is whether or not they can do anything about performance. Oh, they say they are working on it, but they have been saying that for years. So will they keep working on it and failing at it until the lights go out? Or will we finally be able to do things like use abilities, use doors, mount, stun break, etc. in cyrodiil? Most of the guild I played with left this game with NW or before b/c of performance in pvp and for everyone that doesn't care about PvP, it will still be what makes this game a joke to a lot of people. That they couldn't even get it to work for people that wanted to play.

Gaeliannas

.

xaraan wrote: »

* The only real question left in the air and what might break the line of money's worth for me is whether or not they can do anything about performance. Oh, they say they are working on it, but they have been saying that for years. So will they keep working on it and failing at it until the lights go out? Or will we finally be able to do things like use abilities, use doors, mount, stun break, etc. in cyrodiil? Most of the guild I played with left this game with NW or before b/c of performance in pvp and for everyone that doesn't care about PvP, it will still be what makes this game a joke to a lot of people. That they couldn't even get it to work for people that wanted to play.

Yeah, they have been working on it for years with PVP, now that is has full on infected PVE as well, they are still working on it, so much that they have dialed back on content. Honestly, it might be somewhat believable if performance actually got better, but even with the removal of features, the lowering of Cyrodiil populations, it hasn't in the slightest. Heck it hasn't even stayed level, it simply just gets worst every single update no matter what they do.

[snip]

[edited for bashing]

Xinihp

kwinter wrote: »

I am glad they aren’t making big changes to combat. My hope going forward is they stick to small changes. Nice to have an update we’re you are not worried about the nerfs that force you to change everything about build

So long as they still add new classes and skill trees once every couple years or so, I have no problem with less of a sledgehammer approach to balancing.

LordRukia

I think combat is fine, we should focus on the real issue which is console support - PS4 and old xbox should be abandoned by the next chapter in a year so we can get what matters into the game - more skills, classes, etc.

These consoles that are holding the game back are 9+ years old at this point. I've never even played a PC for that long. Idk call me crazy but 10 years is plenty time to drop your old hardware.

ESO lags in 4k during fights on PS5. A 3060 can run ESO in 4k on a 50 inch with a solid 60fps and this was released feb 2021. Consoles are outdated before they even release. Can't complain over 400 bucks (I spend that just on my gpu), but yeah its definitely holding the game back.

IMO Its not fair to halt the games development because we need to support an ancient technology. Everything until then will just be filler and endless QQ on forums. I love my PS5, except for the terrible controller and no back buttons, its just the unfortunate truth.

I think they should give console more freedom to choose their graphics to increase performance, the customization is straight up garbage. What is the harm in letting console players REDUCE graphics, spell density, player textures, etc. GW2 has really great tech which allows a potato to run in full zergs, ESO has some form of it where when you first run up to a player or NPC it will take a second to load their texture and this is active even on PC, this can be further increased to reduce clutter and increase performance especially in zergs like world bosses or cyrodiil, raids, etc.

I can't blame everything on console hardware though, as clearly the server structure and coding has some to do with it as well. I have seen some insane optimizations in certain games that really blow my mind how they are even able to run on console. I think we gotta admit 9 years is insane though to still be supporting. Thats like still supporting windows xp ya'll.. ok maybe vista xD

Marto

Either way, it's not like High Isle is cheap, rushed or lazy. The zone looks fantastic. The art team did a fantastic job with the architecture sets, creatures, and piecing together the map. The dense foliage of Amenos looks gorgeous.

Tons of voice acting, tons of quests. Just as many as before.

Other than new combat mechanics like classes or skill lines, ESO still shows no signs of slowing down. Not even remotely.

There is more to the game than combat.

Sevalaricgirl

You can't have a new class every single chapter. That's unreasonable but people seem to think they should. The last two years have been pretty bad for game development because working in the office where you can feed off each other is just better for it but unfortunately, that was not what happened and is still happening. Be thankful that we have anything at all.

LashanW

Gaeliannas wrote: »

Honestly, it might be somewhat believable if performance actually got better, but even with the removal of features, the lowering of Cyrodiil populations, it hasn't in the slightest. Heck it hasn't even stayed level, it simply just gets worst every single update no matter what they do.

This is what always bothers me. Performance doesn't even stay the same, it gets worse. Loading screens and desync is just awful in this patch for me, previous patch was noticeably better.

Sevalaricgirl wrote: »

Be thankful that we have anything at all.

Thankful? It's not free, we pay money for it.

Amottica

Jaimeh wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Zenimax had already communicated that they would be adding fewer system, read less with chapters, while they work to improve performance.

Yeah, but that decrease in features should also be reflected in the prices and that has not been the case.

This is an opinion. Everyone has the option to not purchase it and wait until it becomes a DLC if they do not want to pay the price. Heck, they can even wait a short time for the chapter to go on sale, or buy it now at a reduced price as there is a legitimate third party that sells the chapter at a discount (recall a post last year about that and a guildmate bought it that way).

Considering the lion's share of the development of the game is in world creation, writing stories, and developing the instances the cost is pretty much still there.

Lebkuchen

LordRukia wrote: »

I think combat is fine, we should focus on the real issue which is console support - PS4 and old xbox should be abandoned by the next chapter in a year so we can get what matters into the game - more skills, classes, etc...

No. Ew. Please stop.

I disagree with everything you are saying and especially with how you are saying it.

Except the stuff about back buttons, graphics customization and "I can't blame everything on console hardware". I agree.

Stamicka

Marto wrote: »

Either way, it's not like High Isle is cheap, rushed or lazy. The zone looks fantastic. The art team did a fantastic job with the architecture sets, creatures, and piecing together the map. The dense foliage of Amenos looks gorgeous.

Tons of voice acting, tons of quests. Just as many as before.

Other than new combat mechanics like classes or skill lines, ESO still shows no signs of slowing down. Not even remotely.

There is more to the game than combat.

Well I guess you don’t do vet PVE or PvP? Combat is the only reason I’ve played the game for so long. Don’t forget that not everyone plays the game like you do. I don’t touch new zones because there’s no reason to. The questing system in the game is just “go here, go there” and they mark it for you. The overland enemies can all be one shot and there’s no threat of dying. Overland is far too easy and boring for many players so we don’t even touch it.

Meanwhile hybridizing everything has caused PvP healing issues which should have been addressed. Not to mention everything feels homogenized and boring in terms of classes.

There’s two sides of the game. If you don’t like overland content (many people don’t) then what else does this patch offer? A card game? No thanks.

Marto

Stamicka wrote: »

Well I guess you don’t do vet PVE or PvP? Combat is the only reason I’ve played the game for so long. Don’t forget that not everyone plays the game like you do. I don’t touch new zones because there’s no reason to. The questing system in the game is just “go here, go there” and they mark it for you. The overland enemies can all be one shot and there’s no threat of dying. Overland is far too easy and boring for many players so we don’t even touch it.

Meanwhile hybridizing everything has caused PvP healing issues which should have been addressed. Not to mention everything feels homogenized and boring in terms of classes.

There’s two sides of the game. If you don’t like overland content (many people don’t) then what else does this patch offer? A card game? No thanks.

I understand why you might only care about the combat. That is a valid playstyle, and you con continue to do that as much as you want. Do you want to avoid quests and skip all dialogue? As someone who really enjoys the story, I'd a bit disappointed and saddened, but I can't force you.

However... you have to realize that the vast majority of the resources and dev time of ZOS go towards the new zones. It is the meat and potatoes of ESO. You want to eat only the breadsticks? Go ahead, but then don't complain that your meal was uninteresting and predictable.

Artists, worldbuilders, writers, quest designers, voice acting, new soundtracks for each update. For every million dollars ZOS pumps into this game, 900,000 go to new zones.

You will be forever disappointed by this game. It doesn't mean that your playstyle is invalid, nor does it mean ZOS is a bad developer. You're simply looking for something ESO cannot provide regularly. Tales of Tribute is not the first non-combat chapter feature, and it will not be the last. You need to tamper your expectations accordingly.

Stamicka

Marto wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Well I guess you don’t do vet PVE or PvP? Combat is the only reason I’ve played the game for so long. Don’t forget that not everyone plays the game like you do. I don’t touch new zones because there’s no reason to. The questing system in the game is just “go here, go there” and they mark it for you. The overland enemies can all be one shot and there’s no threat of dying. Overland is far too easy and boring for many players so we don’t even touch it.

Meanwhile hybridizing everything has caused PvP healing issues which should have been addressed. Not to mention everything feels homogenized and boring in terms of classes.

There’s two sides of the game. If you don’t like overland content (many people don’t) then what else does this patch offer? A card game? No thanks.

I understand why you might only care about the combat. That is a valid playstyle, and you con continue to do that as much as you want. Do you want to avoid quests and skip all dialogue? As someone who really enjoys the story, I'd a bit disappointed and saddened, but I can't force you.

However... you have to realize that the vast majority of the resources and dev time of ZOS go towards the new zones. It is the meat and potatoes of ESO. You want to eat only the breadsticks? Go ahead, but then don't complain that your meal was uninteresting and predictable.

Artists, worldbuilders, writers, quest designers, voice acting, new soundtracks for each update. For every million dollars ZOS pumps into this game, 900,000 go to new zones.

You will be forever disappointed by this game. It doesn't mean that your playstyle is invalid, nor does it mean ZOS is a bad developer. You're simply looking for something ESO cannot provide regularly. Tales of Tribute is not the first non-combat chapter feature, and it will not be the last. You need to tamper your expectations accordingly.

Well I was happy with the Morrowind Patch’s content cause they had stuff for every type of player. That’s part of the entire point of my original post. Why is it that previous chapters were able to accomplish so much and appeal to a large variety of players while the newer chapters do not? Did ZOS shrink their development team?

In the year that Morrowind released (2017) ZOS released housing, 2 new trials, new dungeons, an updated CP system, item transmutation, BGs, a new class, multiple new zones, and probably much more. That’s tons of new content and new systems that appeals to players of all types. Compare that to now? They don’t accomplish nearly as much. So what’s the reason?

What you’re not understanding is why do they have to compromise now when they didn’t before? You would get your new zone AND I might get a feature I would like. They didn’t have to choose one or the other back then.

SerafinaWaterstar

@LordRukia

Please try & be a bit less condescending & harsh to console players - we have as much right as you to enjoy the game, and our money is just as good.

PS5s are still quite scarce & hard to get hold of in some places, so arbitrarily closing ps4 users off from the game would be horrid. And very bad publicity. Especially in such times when the cost of living is increasing & not everyone can afford to spend over $400 on a gpu.

And why does the game have to have new classes & skills anyway? People either can play around with a wide variety now, or more likely they just follow the meta and use a very small % available!

Marto

Stamicka wrote: »

Well I was happy with the Morrowind Patch’s content cause they had stuff for every type of player. That’s part of the entire point of my original post. Why is it that previous chapters were able to accomplish so much and appeal to a large variety of players while the newer chapters do not? Did ZOS shrink their development team?

In the year that Morrowind released (2017) ZOS released housing, 2 new trials, new dungeons, an updated CP system, item transmutation, BGs, a new class, multiple new zones, and probably much more. That’s tons of new content and new systems that appeals to players of all types. Compare that to now? They don’t accomplish nearly as much. So what’s the reason?

What you’re not understanding is why do they have to compromise now when they didn’t before? You would get your new zone AND I might get a feature I would like. They didn’t have to choose one or the other back then.

You know, that's fair. All games have to compromise like this, and I'm personally not too happy with the compromises ESO has done either.

Personally, I'd like to see less dungeons, less trials, more arenas, and more gear systems. Things like class-specific mythic items or maelstrom arena-style weapons. Or some other wacky things like that, that expand on the classes.

Morrowind is an outlier though. It is considerably larger than all chapters after it. ESO needed substantial changes and new features. Now, the need is lesser.

I agree that ESO could use a new class or skill line. But that need is not as urgent as it was in 2017.

karekiz

I remember the great raider exodus of Morrowind due to resource changes.

Gaeliannas

Marto wrote: »

Either way, it's not like High Isle is cheap, rushed or lazy. The zone looks fantastic. The art team did a fantastic job with the architecture sets, creatures, and piecing together the map. The dense foliage of Amenos looks gorgeous.

Tons of voice acting, tons of quests. Just as many as before.

Other than new combat mechanics like classes or skill lines, ESO still shows no signs of slowing down. Not even remotely.

There is more to the game than combat.

I don't think anyone has issues with the teams you mentioned or how the game looks. But combat is a core part of the game, you can't even quest without engaging in combat, nor can you walk through the world without running into something now and again.

That aside, I think most peoples disappointment is over performance, because even if all you do is mosey around the world, you still have to deal with load screens that are now 10-100x longer than they were 2 years ago a decent portion of the time, and seem to just get worst and worst and worst. So in fact, ESO is slowing down, in as much as it takes to zone from one place to another at the very least. Or even login for that matter, which took me less than 15 seconds just 2-3 years ago as well, good luck getting that to happen anymore.

Edit: Just timed it, a minute and a half to login vs the old 15 seconds.

shadyjane62

Destai wrote: »

For years people have complained about the frequency of large scale changes, and now they're dialing it back, taking a slower approach. I think resetting the pace is going to be good for them and the game at large.

If they are going to do less, they should charge less.

Gaeliannas

shadyjane62 wrote: »

Destai wrote: »

For years people have complained about the frequency of large scale changes, and now they're dialing it back, taking a slower approach. I think resetting the pace is going to be good for them and the game at large.

If they are going to do less, they should charge less.

Less is more!

StabbityDoom

ZOS is hiring. They are short staffed from the looks of it. You only do what you can do. Without longer deadlines, you can't produce much more with the amount of people they have, is my guess.

omegatay_ESO

Inflation.. Pay the same price, get less, or worse quality. It's not just food, it's everything, literally..

Gaeliannas

StabbityDoom wrote: »

ZOS is hiring. They are short staffed from the looks of it. You only do what you can do. Without longer deadlines, you can't produce much more with the amount of people they have, is my guess.

They elephant in the room is, why are they so short staffed on leads and senior people suddenly? Based on the water cooler comment they made, maybe their pay rate is stuck back in the 20th century as well, and all their good people left for greener pastures. Most companies are paying up for good help now, and also have the whole WFH thing nailed (ZOS seems to struggle with still according to themselves), and all these employers don't care where you live anymore.

A network engineer friend of mine in the SF Bay Area here just took a job for a company based out of Minnesota or something, that has pharmacies across the country, he now works 80% remote, sold his house here, moved to San Diego and got a $50K jump in salary to over $200K now. My developer friends are all in fairly similar situations at this point as well. If ZOS wants good help, they will need to pay up or lose everyone, and based on their willingness to even buy server upgrades, I doubt that is happening. You get what you pay for and we get to reap the rewards of that.

Just basing that off info ZOS have said. And things like if they had an actual network or systems engineer monitoring their systems like any company with production systems does, it wouldn't have taken a week to discover they had a bad port/NIC or whatever they claimed happened.