The very concept of ball groups is outdated

neferpitou73

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Kordai wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Kordai wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

The very concept of ball groups is outdated.
Or...
Ball groups are so dominant in low-pop PVP that it's actively unfun for everyone not in a ball group.

Come on, pick one.

I hate to be the one to break it to you but the original pop cap of 1800 isn't still a thing. Your options literally aren't exclusive so not quite sure what you're talking about. But if you consider max pop to be low pop I can see your confusion.

Again :My argument was that the concept that made them necessary early on when proxy was created is now outdated as happens when this thing called "time" passes and changes are made. When the actual population cap in cyrodiil was 1800, you had massive zergs. Ball groups were made to largely counter those big zergs. And when you have massive numbers ball groups were fine and still didn't have a crazy impact because of the total population size. As population dropped and dropped to the current max cap of 240 total, they power difference simply went up and up. Hypothetically if the pop cap was reduced even further to 40 people, would you still argue that they aren't OP?

The current population cap is absolutely "low pop" compared to what we had even a few years ago. The lower the population gets, the more dominant ball groups get because it's harder and harder to counter them with a faction stack. Drop that to 40, and you can kiss any plans of breaking a properly built, trained 12-player Ball group goodbye.

But you can't go claiming something is dominant and outdated in the same breath.

Organized groups don't purely exist to counter zergs. In fact, it's pretty obvious that current ball groups exist to farm objectives, zergs, hordes of unorganized players for AP. They do that really, really well right now. Ball groups are still dominating the campaigns because they are the opposite of outdated. They are more dominant now because there are less semi-organized players around to oppose them.

Are they outdated?
Or are they overpowered?
Pick one.

(I prefer to run in a "Ball group" style guild. We're overpowered. We're absolutely not "outdated" when you consider that our playstyle has only gotten more powerful as the population gets smaller. The concept of "play in an organized group in voice comms" doesn't become outdated just because our enemies have gotten less powerful/numerous.)

I see the confusion. What I meant was that the concept that made ball groups necessary, massive zergs of 100+ people is no longer valid and is "outdated". The concept that made them necessary not the actual ball group unto itself. They have continued to get more powerful comparatively with the overall pop reduction even if you discount buffs to sets/skills and because the premise of their necessity (and their necessary power) is obsolete they should be looked at. Basically what was once a large fish in a big ocean is now a large fish in a small pond, the fish didn't change size but comparatively it is now much more significant.

See, I have to disagree about the premise of their necessity and necessary power.

The premise is to win. To dominate larger groups of players, capture objectives, and make loads of AP.

Ball groups are still hands down the most effective method of doing so, which is why the zergs have died and ball groups haven't. The premise of a ball group is evergreen: play in a tightly coordinated, trained group to win over all the less coordinated groups.

They do get looked at by ZOS periodically, but it's kinda hard to nerf the power of teamwork in an AvAvA game originally designed for teams of 8 to 24 players. (It absolutely does not help that ZOS keeps developing sets that only a team of tightly coordinated players can benefit from.)

Zergs haven't died because of ball groups. They've died because population is lower than it's ever been. Faction stacks are a sad vestige of their former selves.

The current way to kill a ball group is to overwhelm them because they take advantage of poor balance. In the past, the only way to eject a troll ball group was with overwhelming forces. Because there are no longer enough players to do so oftentimes, that's another thing ball groups don't have to worry about.

From a ball group's perspective, spending 30 minutes running up and down the stairs at Sej is fun. For everyone else? It's boring at best and infuriating at worst. A ball group needs other players to fight so maybe driving them offline isn't the wisest strategy. It's also funny how ball groups usually end up fighting non ball groups all across the map rather than engage one another.

Yeah, I agree the zergs died largely due to low pop and bad performance.

I don't think it's strange that ball groups don't fight ball groups when there's a lot more AP to be made now fighting everyone else. Ball group vs ball group fights tend to be a long stalemate where there's really not a lot of AP to be made, especially in the open field.

There are guilds that fight other guilds, but those are typically the faction focused guilds who fight at objectives rather than running the top floors at back keeps or the Sej stairs.


And while I understand your point about "hey, ball groups, in the longterm, maybe don't drive players away with boring gameplay", but I don't expect it to appeal to anyone who's in or runs a ball group. In the short-term, this is what their guild mates like to do. This is why they play PVP. It's a choice between having fun now in their preferred way vs maybe having a healthier PVP population a few years down the line (when that guild or those players maybe moved on). Guild leaders are going to prioritize what's best for their guild now.

It's real easy to tell someone else to play differently for "the greater good." It should come as no surprise when ball group guilds don't listen to people who aren't in their guild.

Frankly, the only way we get healthier PVP gameplay and population is for ZOS to fix the performance issues so they can raise the population cap. If they can't do that, then Cyrodiil is going to die whether the ball groups listen to you or not.

I'm not telling anyone to play differently but the fact is most (not all) will follow the weakest groups around the map for, as you said, easy AP. There point is, if 99% of the population doesn't find that playstyle enjoyable but they're constantly having to spend ridiculous amounts of time chasing the 1% around and getting picked on by 12 players cheesing the system, then maybe the 99% needs and actual tool for fighting them.

Importantly not a tool the ball groups themselves will use.

24 good players shouldn't take 20 minutes to eject a 12 man group only surviving due to min maxing and indestructible obstacles.

Hey, if you figure out that tool, let ZOS know!

A set that does AOE healing absorption that scales up to a high number when it hits 12. Ball groups just ulti-dump and AOE spam to overwhelm healing anyway so shutting off pugs healing for 3-4 seconds wouldn't make much difference, but hit a ball group with 20K healing absorption and at least a couple will drop each time before the OP heals kick back in.

Speaking of misguided suggestions...

I thought the last year would've taught people what happens when you try to fix gameplay issues with sets.

Yeah sure a couple of the ball group members will drop along with the entirety of the zerg they were attacking (and contrary to popular believe a sufficiently larger zerg or one with talented players can sustain through a burst, with this there is literally no way to resist a burst). No to mention if the effect is only a few seconds ball groups can just stack damage shields, something a zerg can't do.

also to this plaguebreak only made ballgroups NEED to build tankier or take even more heal power to heal through the negative effects. Sieging keeps is a pain but with the damage reduction cps and other forms of mitigation plus building more toward defense and heals. ballgroups are just tankier than before. Idk why people come on these forums to make suggestions when they just backfire. And they move on to complain about the thing they asked for...

PB is just such an utter disaster. Honestly it's slightly annoying that we can't purge but with all the CPs we can heal through siege just fine (it's not always easy but it's manageable unless the defense knows what they're doing). On the other hand we now have a more cost efficient version of VD to kill PUGs with.

Einstein_

And again we are back to the same topic:

Random Pugs with no coordination

VS

Optimized Groups with:

- Optimized group setup untill last glyph/every skill is there for a reson
- way way better game knowlage then avg. zerg when it comes to builds/game machanics
- Dedicated roles for all 12
- voice chat
- Years of pratice together
- analysing raids every time to push for perfection. (logs/videos)
- just higher skill lvl then avg zerg

guess who wins ?


and then the same ppl come to the forum and complain.....

xylena_lazarow

Einstein_ wrote: »

guess who wins ?

What's the correct value for X in 12vX? How long should the fight last? Who "wins" the fight where the zerg controls the objective but can't wipe the ballgroup so long as they're heal-stalling with no attempt on the objective?

neferpitou73

Kordai wrote: »

Einstein_ wrote: »

And again we are back to the same topic:

Random Pugs with no coordination

VS

Optimized Groups with:

- Optimized group setup untill last glyph/every skill is there for a reson
- way way better game knowlage then avg. zerg when it comes to builds/game machanics
- Dedicated roles for all 12
- voice chat
- Years of pratice together
- analysing raids every time to push for perfection. (logs/videos)
- just higher skill lvl then avg zerg

guess who wins ?


and then the same ppl come to the forum and complain.....

Kordai wrote: »

"I feel like people keep missing the point, I never said that ball groups shouldn't be good just HOW good they should be. Just reread my OP again I guess I don't feel like rewording it all." I'll just keep quoting myself ad nauseam.

[snip]

Several ball group leads including myself have called out ZOS for adding things that benefit the playstyle. Including the utterly disastrous sets from the fall patch.

This isn't a "LOL I like wiping PUGs don't take it away from me" situation. This is a "Wow that idea is really bad and ZOS has a bad habit of implementing ideas from the forums so I better point out why it won't work"

[edited to remove quote]

LarsS

There is one existing solution, which solves most complaints about ball groups, but most people cant live without their proc sets (including ball groups). We have played both proc and non-proc campaigns and the balls are still good on non-proc but the differens is smaller. Group optimization is more about good rotation and experience, than proc set optimization and the best cp distribution. Thus non-proc is also more friendly to new players. The lag also tends to be lower when the campaign is locked.

NotTaylorSwift

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Einstein_ wrote: »

guess who wins ?

What's the correct value for X in 12vX? How long should the fight last? Who "wins" the fight where the zerg controls the objective but can't wipe the ballgroup so long as they're heal-stalling with no attempt on the objective?

What do you keep going on about ‘heal-stalling’ for? It’s not right. Stalling in any other game suggests something completely different. Also if ur not healing dmg away then ur not playing pvp right lmao. How do you think solo and small scale players 1vx or 2/3/4vx ?? Healing is a big part. Being able to heal and survive under pressure is one of the core fundamentals of eso pvp… It’s not stalling because stalling suggests waiting around for people to die gradually. That’s not what’s happening.

You talk as though you think players shouldn’t be able to heal enough to fight. You can 1vx in any game so why not eso? In my opinion your idea of how combat is working in eso is wrong. Ye id agree if you said healing was op atm but stuff like plaguebreak, which you people also asked for, demands that healing be higher due to no ability to purge negative effects. Have you thought about the consequences of nerfing this ‘heal-stalling’ on zergs?? Good luck sieging any keep

xylena_lazarow

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

Have you thought about the consequences of nerfing this ‘heal-stalling’ on zergs?

Dragging out a fight without attempting to win the objective is "stalling." Disorganized zergs have few healing effects on any given individual, so no, the stacking nerfs being discussed in this thread would not nerf pugs.

NotTaylorSwift

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

Have you thought about the consequences of nerfing this ‘heal-stalling’ on zergs?

Dragging out a fight without attempting to win the objective is "stalling." Disorganized zergs have few healing effects on any given individual, so no, the stacking nerfs being discussed in this thread would not nerf pugs.

You are wrong again. Heal stacks on zerg individuals from rad regen can become quite high. Not to mention ground heals like springs which won’t show on buff trackers. There are many zerg healers out there and individuals running at least rad regen. And it’s not stalling. We’re not dragging out in hopes of something happening we are fighting 99% of the time. There are attempts to win objective. If we kill enough members of enemy alliance or if the resistance isn’t too high we attempt to turn keep from inside. Or we attempt to turn keep before the enemy turns up. Just because you’re attempts to kill the group are failing doesn’t make what they are doing ‘stalling’. I’d like to see you’re day to day ability bars to get an idea of how you play if you are against this so called ‘heal stalling’.

Thecompton73

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Kordai wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Kordai wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

The very concept of ball groups is outdated.
Or...
Ball groups are so dominant in low-pop PVP that it's actively unfun for everyone not in a ball group.

Come on, pick one.

I hate to be the one to break it to you but the original pop cap of 1800 isn't still a thing. Your options literally aren't exclusive so not quite sure what you're talking about. But if you consider max pop to be low pop I can see your confusion.

Again :My argument was that the concept that made them necessary early on when proxy was created is now outdated as happens when this thing called "time" passes and changes are made. When the actual population cap in cyrodiil was 1800, you had massive zergs. Ball groups were made to largely counter those big zergs. And when you have massive numbers ball groups were fine and still didn't have a crazy impact because of the total population size. As population dropped and dropped to the current max cap of 240 total, they power difference simply went up and up. Hypothetically if the pop cap was reduced even further to 40 people, would you still argue that they aren't OP?

The current population cap is absolutely "low pop" compared to what we had even a few years ago. The lower the population gets, the more dominant ball groups get because it's harder and harder to counter them with a faction stack. Drop that to 40, and you can kiss any plans of breaking a properly built, trained 12-player Ball group goodbye.

But you can't go claiming something is dominant and outdated in the same breath.

Organized groups don't purely exist to counter zergs. In fact, it's pretty obvious that current ball groups exist to farm objectives, zergs, hordes of unorganized players for AP. They do that really, really well right now. Ball groups are still dominating the campaigns because they are the opposite of outdated. They are more dominant now because there are less semi-organized players around to oppose them.

Are they outdated?
Or are they overpowered?
Pick one.

(I prefer to run in a "Ball group" style guild. We're overpowered. We're absolutely not "outdated" when you consider that our playstyle has only gotten more powerful as the population gets smaller. The concept of "play in an organized group in voice comms" doesn't become outdated just because our enemies have gotten less powerful/numerous.)

I see the confusion. What I meant was that the concept that made ball groups necessary, massive zergs of 100+ people is no longer valid and is "outdated". The concept that made them necessary not the actual ball group unto itself. They have continued to get more powerful comparatively with the overall pop reduction even if you discount buffs to sets/skills and because the premise of their necessity (and their necessary power) is obsolete they should be looked at. Basically what was once a large fish in a big ocean is now a large fish in a small pond, the fish didn't change size but comparatively it is now much more significant.

See, I have to disagree about the premise of their necessity and necessary power.

The premise is to win. To dominate larger groups of players, capture objectives, and make loads of AP.

Ball groups are still hands down the most effective method of doing so, which is why the zergs have died and ball groups haven't. The premise of a ball group is evergreen: play in a tightly coordinated, trained group to win over all the less coordinated groups.

They do get looked at by ZOS periodically, but it's kinda hard to nerf the power of teamwork in an AvAvA game originally designed for teams of 8 to 24 players. (It absolutely does not help that ZOS keeps developing sets that only a team of tightly coordinated players can benefit from.)

Zergs haven't died because of ball groups. They've died because population is lower than it's ever been. Faction stacks are a sad vestige of their former selves.

The current way to kill a ball group is to overwhelm them because they take advantage of poor balance. In the past, the only way to eject a troll ball group was with overwhelming forces. Because there are no longer enough players to do so oftentimes, that's another thing ball groups don't have to worry about.

From a ball group's perspective, spending 30 minutes running up and down the stairs at Sej is fun. For everyone else? It's boring at best and infuriating at worst. A ball group needs other players to fight so maybe driving them offline isn't the wisest strategy. It's also funny how ball groups usually end up fighting non ball groups all across the map rather than engage one another.

Yeah, I agree the zergs died largely due to low pop and bad performance.

I don't think it's strange that ball groups don't fight ball groups when there's a lot more AP to be made now fighting everyone else. Ball group vs ball group fights tend to be a long stalemate where there's really not a lot of AP to be made, especially in the open field.

There are guilds that fight other guilds, but those are typically the faction focused guilds who fight at objectives rather than running the top floors at back keeps or the Sej stairs.


And while I understand your point about "hey, ball groups, in the longterm, maybe don't drive players away with boring gameplay", but I don't expect it to appeal to anyone who's in or runs a ball group. In the short-term, this is what their guild mates like to do. This is why they play PVP. It's a choice between having fun now in their preferred way vs maybe having a healthier PVP population a few years down the line (when that guild or those players maybe moved on). Guild leaders are going to prioritize what's best for their guild now.

It's real easy to tell someone else to play differently for "the greater good." It should come as no surprise when ball group guilds don't listen to people who aren't in their guild.

Frankly, the only way we get healthier PVP gameplay and population is for ZOS to fix the performance issues so they can raise the population cap. If they can't do that, then Cyrodiil is going to die whether the ball groups listen to you or not.

I'm not telling anyone to play differently but the fact is most (not all) will follow the weakest groups around the map for, as you said, easy AP. There point is, if 99% of the population doesn't find that playstyle enjoyable but they're constantly having to spend ridiculous amounts of time chasing the 1% around and getting picked on by 12 players cheesing the system, then maybe the 99% needs and actual tool for fighting them.

Importantly not a tool the ball groups themselves will use.

24 good players shouldn't take 20 minutes to eject a 12 man group only surviving due to min maxing and indestructible obstacles.

Hey, if you figure out that tool, let ZOS know!

A set that does AOE healing absorption that scales up to a high number when it hits 12. Ball groups just ulti-dump and AOE spam to overwhelm healing anyway so shutting off pugs healing for 3-4 seconds wouldn't make much difference, but hit a ball group with 20K healing absorption and at least a couple will drop each time before the OP heals kick back in.

Speaking of misguided suggestions...

I thought the last year would've taught people what happens when you try to fix gameplay issues with sets.

Yeah sure a couple of the ball group members will drop along with the entirety of the zerg they were attacking (and contrary to popular believe a sufficiently larger zerg or one with talented players can sustain through a burst, with this there is literally no way to resist a burst). No to mention if the effect is only a few seconds ball groups can just stack damage shields, something a zerg can't do.

Lol, I love how you make it out like ball groups stand in the open and fight zergs toe to toe. Almost every time I've seen a ball group try to take on a massive zerg in the open they either die or run. LOS+Massive heals keep them alive, take away LOS and put them in the open and suddenly 60 pugs CAN out damage the HPS they put out.
And when they run around keeps and come around a corner and catch 10 pugs with their ulti burst how could those ten be any more dead if they'd had healing negated? When there are 60 pugs in a keep chasing a ball around the ball wipes 10-15 with each ulti drop because the 60 pugs don't all stack as close together as the ball group does for the whole fight. So an AOE heal absorption would be able to catch most or all of a ball group together but it would never catch all of the pugs at the same time.

Gaeliannas

Thecompton73 wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Kordai wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Kordai wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

The very concept of ball groups is outdated.
Or...
Ball groups are so dominant in low-pop PVP that it's actively unfun for everyone not in a ball group.

Come on, pick one.

I hate to be the one to break it to you but the original pop cap of 1800 isn't still a thing. Your options literally aren't exclusive so not quite sure what you're talking about. But if you consider max pop to be low pop I can see your confusion.

Again :My argument was that the concept that made them necessary early on when proxy was created is now outdated as happens when this thing called "time" passes and changes are made. When the actual population cap in cyrodiil was 1800, you had massive zergs. Ball groups were made to largely counter those big zergs. And when you have massive numbers ball groups were fine and still didn't have a crazy impact because of the total population size. As population dropped and dropped to the current max cap of 240 total, they power difference simply went up and up. Hypothetically if the pop cap was reduced even further to 40 people, would you still argue that they aren't OP?

The current population cap is absolutely "low pop" compared to what we had even a few years ago. The lower the population gets, the more dominant ball groups get because it's harder and harder to counter them with a faction stack. Drop that to 40, and you can kiss any plans of breaking a properly built, trained 12-player Ball group goodbye.

But you can't go claiming something is dominant and outdated in the same breath.

Organized groups don't purely exist to counter zergs. In fact, it's pretty obvious that current ball groups exist to farm objectives, zergs, hordes of unorganized players for AP. They do that really, really well right now. Ball groups are still dominating the campaigns because they are the opposite of outdated. They are more dominant now because there are less semi-organized players around to oppose them.

Are they outdated?
Or are they overpowered?
Pick one.

(I prefer to run in a "Ball group" style guild. We're overpowered. We're absolutely not "outdated" when you consider that our playstyle has only gotten more powerful as the population gets smaller. The concept of "play in an organized group in voice comms" doesn't become outdated just because our enemies have gotten less powerful/numerous.)

I see the confusion. What I meant was that the concept that made ball groups necessary, massive zergs of 100+ people is no longer valid and is "outdated". The concept that made them necessary not the actual ball group unto itself. They have continued to get more powerful comparatively with the overall pop reduction even if you discount buffs to sets/skills and because the premise of their necessity (and their necessary power) is obsolete they should be looked at. Basically what was once a large fish in a big ocean is now a large fish in a small pond, the fish didn't change size but comparatively it is now much more significant.

See, I have to disagree about the premise of their necessity and necessary power.

The premise is to win. To dominate larger groups of players, capture objectives, and make loads of AP.

Ball groups are still hands down the most effective method of doing so, which is why the zergs have died and ball groups haven't. The premise of a ball group is evergreen: play in a tightly coordinated, trained group to win over all the less coordinated groups.

They do get looked at by ZOS periodically, but it's kinda hard to nerf the power of teamwork in an AvAvA game originally designed for teams of 8 to 24 players. (It absolutely does not help that ZOS keeps developing sets that only a team of tightly coordinated players can benefit from.)

Zergs haven't died because of ball groups. They've died because population is lower than it's ever been. Faction stacks are a sad vestige of their former selves.

The current way to kill a ball group is to overwhelm them because they take advantage of poor balance. In the past, the only way to eject a troll ball group was with overwhelming forces. Because there are no longer enough players to do so oftentimes, that's another thing ball groups don't have to worry about.

From a ball group's perspective, spending 30 minutes running up and down the stairs at Sej is fun. For everyone else? It's boring at best and infuriating at worst. A ball group needs other players to fight so maybe driving them offline isn't the wisest strategy. It's also funny how ball groups usually end up fighting non ball groups all across the map rather than engage one another.

Yeah, I agree the zergs died largely due to low pop and bad performance.

I don't think it's strange that ball groups don't fight ball groups when there's a lot more AP to be made now fighting everyone else. Ball group vs ball group fights tend to be a long stalemate where there's really not a lot of AP to be made, especially in the open field.

There are guilds that fight other guilds, but those are typically the faction focused guilds who fight at objectives rather than running the top floors at back keeps or the Sej stairs.


And while I understand your point about "hey, ball groups, in the longterm, maybe don't drive players away with boring gameplay", but I don't expect it to appeal to anyone who's in or runs a ball group. In the short-term, this is what their guild mates like to do. This is why they play PVP. It's a choice between having fun now in their preferred way vs maybe having a healthier PVP population a few years down the line (when that guild or those players maybe moved on). Guild leaders are going to prioritize what's best for their guild now.

It's real easy to tell someone else to play differently for "the greater good." It should come as no surprise when ball group guilds don't listen to people who aren't in their guild.

Frankly, the only way we get healthier PVP gameplay and population is for ZOS to fix the performance issues so they can raise the population cap. If they can't do that, then Cyrodiil is going to die whether the ball groups listen to you or not.

I'm not telling anyone to play differently but the fact is most (not all) will follow the weakest groups around the map for, as you said, easy AP. There point is, if 99% of the population doesn't find that playstyle enjoyable but they're constantly having to spend ridiculous amounts of time chasing the 1% around and getting picked on by 12 players cheesing the system, then maybe the 99% needs and actual tool for fighting them.

Importantly not a tool the ball groups themselves will use.

24 good players shouldn't take 20 minutes to eject a 12 man group only surviving due to min maxing and indestructible obstacles.

Hey, if you figure out that tool, let ZOS know!

A set that does AOE healing absorption that scales up to a high number when it hits 12. Ball groups just ulti-dump and AOE spam to overwhelm healing anyway so shutting off pugs healing for 3-4 seconds wouldn't make much difference, but hit a ball group with 20K healing absorption and at least a couple will drop each time before the OP heals kick back in.

Speaking of misguided suggestions...

I thought the last year would've taught people what happens when you try to fix gameplay issues with sets.

Yeah sure a couple of the ball group members will drop along with the entirety of the zerg they were attacking (and contrary to popular believe a sufficiently larger zerg or one with talented players can sustain through a burst, with this there is literally no way to resist a burst). No to mention if the effect is only a few seconds ball groups can just stack damage shields, something a zerg can't do.

Lol, I love how you make it out like ball groups stand in the open and fight zergs toe to toe. Almost every time I've seen a ball group try to take on a massive zerg in the open they either die or run. LOS+Massive heals keep them alive, take away LOS and put them in the open and suddenly 60 pugs CAN out damage the HPS they put out.
And when they run around keeps and come around a corner and catch 10 pugs with their ulti burst how could those ten be any more dead if they'd had healing negated? When there are 60 pugs in a keep chasing a ball around the ball wipes 10-15 with each ulti drop because the 60 pugs don't all stack as close together as the ball group does for the whole fight. So an AOE heal absorption would be able to catch most or all of a ball group together but it would never catch all of the pugs at the same time.

Not sure how you assumed he meant open field from what he said, but many ball group are very good at open field regardless, some even specialize at it and do not require LOS to live. Zergs are inside keeps as well, and in the courtyards, and definitely on the flags all bunched/stacked up in large clusters. As for ten pugs being caught off guard, well I guess that's what makes them a pug, maybe they should be a tad more aware of their environment in a virtual battle situation. When a ball group comes around the corner, we are waiting for them, and we would drop them like a rock a good portion of the time, and /sweep up afterwards.

Killing a ball group isn't so hard as most seem to think, it just takes a bit of coordination and skill, and can be done with as few as 5-6 players working together. Of course, 60 pugs just have to count on getting lucky.

Cuddlypuff

I just solved it. Just make negate a generic ultimate available to all classes. ZOS really should pay me.

Thecompton73

Gaeliannas wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Kordai wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Kordai wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

The very concept of ball groups is outdated.
Or...
Ball groups are so dominant in low-pop PVP that it's actively unfun for everyone not in a ball group.

Come on, pick one.

I hate to be the one to break it to you but the original pop cap of 1800 isn't still a thing. Your options literally aren't exclusive so not quite sure what you're talking about. But if you consider max pop to be low pop I can see your confusion.

Again :My argument was that the concept that made them necessary early on when proxy was created is now outdated as happens when this thing called "time" passes and changes are made. When the actual population cap in cyrodiil was 1800, you had massive zergs. Ball groups were made to largely counter those big zergs. And when you have massive numbers ball groups were fine and still didn't have a crazy impact because of the total population size. As population dropped and dropped to the current max cap of 240 total, they power difference simply went up and up. Hypothetically if the pop cap was reduced even further to 40 people, would you still argue that they aren't OP?

The current population cap is absolutely "low pop" compared to what we had even a few years ago. The lower the population gets, the more dominant ball groups get because it's harder and harder to counter them with a faction stack. Drop that to 40, and you can kiss any plans of breaking a properly built, trained 12-player Ball group goodbye.

But you can't go claiming something is dominant and outdated in the same breath.

Organized groups don't purely exist to counter zergs. In fact, it's pretty obvious that current ball groups exist to farm objectives, zergs, hordes of unorganized players for AP. They do that really, really well right now. Ball groups are still dominating the campaigns because they are the opposite of outdated. They are more dominant now because there are less semi-organized players around to oppose them.

Are they outdated?
Or are they overpowered?
Pick one.

(I prefer to run in a "Ball group" style guild. We're overpowered. We're absolutely not "outdated" when you consider that our playstyle has only gotten more powerful as the population gets smaller. The concept of "play in an organized group in voice comms" doesn't become outdated just because our enemies have gotten less powerful/numerous.)

I see the confusion. What I meant was that the concept that made ball groups necessary, massive zergs of 100+ people is no longer valid and is "outdated". The concept that made them necessary not the actual ball group unto itself. They have continued to get more powerful comparatively with the overall pop reduction even if you discount buffs to sets/skills and because the premise of their necessity (and their necessary power) is obsolete they should be looked at. Basically what was once a large fish in a big ocean is now a large fish in a small pond, the fish didn't change size but comparatively it is now much more significant.

See, I have to disagree about the premise of their necessity and necessary power.

The premise is to win. To dominate larger groups of players, capture objectives, and make loads of AP.

Ball groups are still hands down the most effective method of doing so, which is why the zergs have died and ball groups haven't. The premise of a ball group is evergreen: play in a tightly coordinated, trained group to win over all the less coordinated groups.

They do get looked at by ZOS periodically, but it's kinda hard to nerf the power of teamwork in an AvAvA game originally designed for teams of 8 to 24 players. (It absolutely does not help that ZOS keeps developing sets that only a team of tightly coordinated players can benefit from.)

Zergs haven't died because of ball groups. They've died because population is lower than it's ever been. Faction stacks are a sad vestige of their former selves.

The current way to kill a ball group is to overwhelm them because they take advantage of poor balance. In the past, the only way to eject a troll ball group was with overwhelming forces. Because there are no longer enough players to do so oftentimes, that's another thing ball groups don't have to worry about.

From a ball group's perspective, spending 30 minutes running up and down the stairs at Sej is fun. For everyone else? It's boring at best and infuriating at worst. A ball group needs other players to fight so maybe driving them offline isn't the wisest strategy. It's also funny how ball groups usually end up fighting non ball groups all across the map rather than engage one another.

Yeah, I agree the zergs died largely due to low pop and bad performance.

I don't think it's strange that ball groups don't fight ball groups when there's a lot more AP to be made now fighting everyone else. Ball group vs ball group fights tend to be a long stalemate where there's really not a lot of AP to be made, especially in the open field.

There are guilds that fight other guilds, but those are typically the faction focused guilds who fight at objectives rather than running the top floors at back keeps or the Sej stairs.


And while I understand your point about "hey, ball groups, in the longterm, maybe don't drive players away with boring gameplay", but I don't expect it to appeal to anyone who's in or runs a ball group. In the short-term, this is what their guild mates like to do. This is why they play PVP. It's a choice between having fun now in their preferred way vs maybe having a healthier PVP population a few years down the line (when that guild or those players maybe moved on). Guild leaders are going to prioritize what's best for their guild now.

It's real easy to tell someone else to play differently for "the greater good." It should come as no surprise when ball group guilds don't listen to people who aren't in their guild.

Frankly, the only way we get healthier PVP gameplay and population is for ZOS to fix the performance issues so they can raise the population cap. If they can't do that, then Cyrodiil is going to die whether the ball groups listen to you or not.

I'm not telling anyone to play differently but the fact is most (not all) will follow the weakest groups around the map for, as you said, easy AP. There point is, if 99% of the population doesn't find that playstyle enjoyable but they're constantly having to spend ridiculous amounts of time chasing the 1% around and getting picked on by 12 players cheesing the system, then maybe the 99% needs and actual tool for fighting them.

Importantly not a tool the ball groups themselves will use.

24 good players shouldn't take 20 minutes to eject a 12 man group only surviving due to min maxing and indestructible obstacles.

Hey, if you figure out that tool, let ZOS know!

A set that does AOE healing absorption that scales up to a high number when it hits 12. Ball groups just ulti-dump and AOE spam to overwhelm healing anyway so shutting off pugs healing for 3-4 seconds wouldn't make much difference, but hit a ball group with 20K healing absorption and at least a couple will drop each time before the OP heals kick back in.

Speaking of misguided suggestions...

I thought the last year would've taught people what happens when you try to fix gameplay issues with sets.

Yeah sure a couple of the ball group members will drop along with the entirety of the zerg they were attacking (and contrary to popular believe a sufficiently larger zerg or one with talented players can sustain through a burst, with this there is literally no way to resist a burst). No to mention if the effect is only a few seconds ball groups can just stack damage shields, something a zerg can't do.

Lol, I love how you make it out like ball groups stand in the open and fight zergs toe to toe. Almost every time I've seen a ball group try to take on a massive zerg in the open they either die or run. LOS+Massive heals keep them alive, take away LOS and put them in the open and suddenly 60 pugs CAN out damage the HPS they put out.
And when they run around keeps and come around a corner and catch 10 pugs with their ulti burst how could those ten be any more dead if they'd had healing negated? When there are 60 pugs in a keep chasing a ball around the ball wipes 10-15 with each ulti drop because the 60 pugs don't all stack as close together as the ball group does for the whole fight. So an AOE heal absorption would be able to catch most or all of a ball group together but it would never catch all of the pugs at the same time.

Not sure how you assumed he meant open field from what he said, but many ball group are very good at open field regardless, some even specialize at it and do not require LOS to live. Zergs are inside keeps as well, and in the courtyards, and definitely on the flags all bunched/stacked up in large clusters. As for ten pugs being caught off guard, well I guess that's what makes them a pug, maybe they should be a tad more aware of their environment in a virtual battle situation. When a ball group comes around the corner, we are waiting for them, and we would drop them like a rock a good portion of the time, and /sweep up afterwards.

Killing a ball group isn't so hard as most seem to think, it just takes a bit of coordination and skill, and can be done with as few as 5-6 players working together. Of course, 60 pugs just have to count on getting lucky.

Been PvPing for 7 years, mostly on PS and a couple months now on PC and I've seen a ball group trash a sizable zerg in an open field fight exactly once, which happened since the last patch dropped that boosted hybrid healing so much. And that wasn't a 12 person ball, it was at least 20 coordinating through guild chat or discord to stay balled up.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.

Cuwen

Your thread title made me think I'd be coming in here to read about ball groups disappearing. To me, you sound like you think they just should be gone. Big difference. You say the days of actual zergs are long gone, but then you go onto complain because they're not, that zerg groups are a problem for new players... If you have a problem with them, that's fine, but they're not long gone. Updating the title of your thread might help you express your feelings more clearly.

Tommy_The_Gun

Everything has its place in ESO and "Ball group" play-style also has its place in ESO. The problem though is the impact that ball groups have on Cyrodiil. It is way too strong compared to other alternative play styles. That is why people use it. Not because they enjoy it, but because It has little to no counters and it enables so much (imho too much). Every time ZOS wanted to reduce stacking and provide a reasonable counter to a "ball group" it always ended up in either not affecting them at all, or making them even stronger. If something is too strong it gets nerfed immediately (even with a hot-fix). Ball groups never actually received a proper "nerf" they kinda deserve.

If performance was better, then Ball Groups may not have been a huge issue. But when nothing works, and you try to roll dodge or block or use potion - then it is a game breaking issue. Ball groups seems to be causing a lot of server traffic and lag. It is not only my observation. Whenever ball group is approaching - you can literally feel it. You don't see them, but the lag gets so bad that you know they are near. Imho it is a shame that during live server testing they did not tested how performance would be with grouping disabled for a week.

I think that the whole solo vs pre-made group could be balanced by some kind of battle spirit change. Maybe making things to somehow scale with a group size ? So the larger the group then skills / sets etc. would get a % weaker or something. idk. At this point I don't even think that any one cares about anything. State of performance is so bad that it makes any kind of competitive gameplay impossible. Balance is kinda irrelevant when your skills are not working.

heng14rwb17_ESO

Ball will always WIN.
ZERG are just food for us.

Madhatten512

OBJnoob wrote: »

I agree that group support sets shouldn't be stronger than self buff procs. Hopefully they bring some sets and buffs in line.

That's the only thing I agree with here though.

You can't nerf ball groups no matter what you do. Its just a bunch of hardcore players who took the time to study and implement the meta for group synergy and strength. If you take set a away and skill b gets merged then okay THAT is no longer the meta. But there will be a new "best," they will find it and use it, and through their superior teamwork will be able to fight larger numbers than themselves.

If 80 of one faction is getting demolished by a single ball group of another faction... Well, the one faction just isn't very talented is it? There's no change you can make to the game where bad players will beat good players.

The best strategy in such a case is to spread the 80 man zerg out into 3 or 4 separate armies and attack things simultaneously. The ball group is designed to stick together and as such can only defend one thing at a time. If they split up they lose their ability to stack every single buff in the game on themselves and this too can lead to victory.

That's the only answer friend, sorry.

The alliances do not spread out and attack things simultaneously anymore. Every single faction in the game faction stacks. So its very easy for any ball group to wander up to the only fight on the entire map and clean house. They can not be everywhere at once, but groups are to scared to go try to do something on their own without the rest of faction. Its made cyro so boring because there is literally only one fight on the map at any given time. If ZOS cared about PvP performance they would incentivize spreading factions out and penalize faction stacking (because it would also greatly improve performance if people would spread [snip] out). Thats why ball groups are so effective right now everyone is in one spot and 75% of the people running around cyro are just VD bait. Walking land mines.

[edited for profanity bypass]

mocap

Maybe high-end ball groups should just change alliance once a month? Regular players will be glad that such power groups play not only against them, but sometimes also for them.

UPD: I understand that this sentence is addressed to nowhere xd

Gaeliannas

mocap wrote: »

Maybe high-end ball groups should just change alliance once a month? Regular players will be glad that such power groups play not only against them, but sometimes also for them.

UPD: I understand that this sentence is addressed to nowhere xd

Many already do that on PC NA GH.

Thecompton73

mocap wrote: »

Maybe high-end ball groups should just change alliance once a month? Regular players will be glad that such power groups play not only against them, but sometimes also for them.

UPD: I understand that this sentence is addressed to nowhere xd

From what I've read in zone chat there is one particular guild on PC NA that runs ball groups and actually has alternate accounts so they can change alliance as often as they desire, bypassing the alliance faction lock.

And being on the same side as one of those groups isn't exactly a treat. Say 24 DC players using chat or discord and practice to stay on top of each other so they are one big ballgroup ties up the whole AD Alliance at Faregyl for over an hour. As a DC player not in that ball group you can: A) go to Faregyl where the AD faction stack will quit chasing the ball group just long enough to wipe everyone on DC not in that group. OR B ) go face off against all 100% of EP's forces while 20-25% of your players are doing ring around the rosy in Fare still.
Those ball groups very rarely care about trying to play the map and I've seen them completely ignore large amounts of dead friendly greenbars they could probably rez with a little effort; yet they're always willing to try insanely hard to get just one of their own group members back up even if things are super hectic.

WaywardArgonian

Having played with/against multiple group set-ups, I can see the point of the OP. The concept of a small organized team (whether we decide to call it a ballgroup or not) defeating a larger, unorganized one is appealing, but it sometimes feels like bringing a gun to a knife fight. Even when playing in a less tightly organized smallscale, I often found myself in the situation where we'd either have to pick off individual players 1 by 1, which is boring as there is no challenge to it, or facing an entire faction at once, with not many fights falling between these categories. Fights where the challenge is proportionate (we lose if we slip up, we win if we stay focused) feel like they are more rare these days. It could just be my own perception, but I've heard this from other players as well. As of late, Cyrodiil just feels like a giant stalemate.

Silversmith

Ball groups exist because this game allows the following.

1. Snow Treaders
2. 70+% Natural movespeed at all times.
3. eHP + cross healing > Damage
4. Synergies and Ultimate stacking

It's a great strategy to ball group and more guilds and pubs should work on doing it.

Kordai

Cuwen wrote: »

Your thread title made me think I'd be coming in here to read about ball groups disappearing. To me, you sound like you think they just should be gone. Big difference. You say the days of actual zergs are long gone, but then you go onto complain because they're not, that zerg groups are a problem for new players... If you have a problem with them, that's fine, but they're not long gone. Updating the title of your thread might help you express your feelings more clearly.

Are you referring to ball groups as zerg groups? If so, then your whole premise is confusing. If you aren't, then I'm not sure what you are talking about because I never said that. I'm sorry the title confused you.

neferpitou73

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Everything has its place in ESO and "Ball group" play-style also has its place in ESO. The problem though is the impact that ball groups have on Cyrodiil. It is way too strong compared to other alternative play styles. That is why people use it. Not because they enjoy it, but because It has little to no counters and it enables so much (imho too much). Every time ZOS wanted to reduce stacking and provide a reasonable counter to a "ball group" it always ended up in either not affecting them at all, or making them even stronger. If something is too strong it gets nerfed immediately (even with a hot-fix). Ball groups never actually received a proper "nerf" they kinda deserve.

If performance was better, then Ball Groups may not have been a huge issue. But when nothing works, and you try to roll dodge or block or use potion - then it is a game breaking issue. Ball groups seems to be causing a lot of server traffic and lag. It is not only my observation. Whenever ball group is approaching - you can literally feel it. You don't see them, but the lag gets so bad that you know they are near. Imho it is a shame that during live server testing they did not tested how performance would be with grouping disabled for a week.

I think that the whole solo vs pre-made group could be balanced by some kind of battle spirit change. Maybe making things to somehow scale with a group size ? So the larger the group then skills / sets etc. would get a % weaker or something. idk. At this point I don't even think that any one cares about anything. State of performance is so bad that it makes any kind of competitive gameplay impossible. Balance is kinda irrelevant when your skills are not working.

Really?? Is it really that inconceivable that people enjoy playing in groups with their friends and like arranging their group so they're able to win most of their fights.

While there are some sweaty groups out there that love nothing more than griefing we're not all mustache twirling cartoon villians.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

Einstein_ wrote: »

Summary:

Optimized Groups:
- mostly experienced players
- years of playing together
- highly optimized group builds
- every important buff there is in the game
- setup with well defined roles
- voice comunication / lead
- hundrets of hours of training just in this group composition
- analysis of logs and videos after every raid

VS

A bunch of players on some random builds with mostly not alot experiance (experienced players dont tryhard ballgroups).
- nothing of what i mentioned above.


guess who wins.....

you can try to nerf whatevery you want the optimized group will always win and it should be like that.

'A highly optimized group that has played for years, forged in the heart of battle...'

But they use harmony+grave robbers+vicious death+every available buff that they require and they play/contribute in/to 'Lag'. Sounds fun!

I agree with OP, those days are over (tried/done/next). Most of the time on EU, there is so little action that these groups just join the general zergs and if they are to take a homekeep for farming, people just stop going and ignore them.

doesurmindglow

I mean, you'll find numerous posts from me on PTS threads asking them to avoid further buffing ball groups.

There is no interest in it from the devs. Next patch brings at least one if not two or three more sets that will hugely benefit their compositions.

I've come to the opinion it's a ship that's sailed, unfortunately. I'll probably still post to PTS forum that they don't need yet more sets, but it'll fall on deaf ears -- ball groups are not only here to stay, they are meta, and at this point you'd have to roll back so many years of changes to unravel that.

NotTaylorSwift

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Everything has its place in ESO and "Ball group" play-style also has its place in ESO. The problem though is the impact that ball groups have on Cyrodiil. It is way too strong compared to other alternative play styles. That is why people use it. Not because they enjoy it, but because It has little to no counters and it enables so much (imho too much).

Pls stop going around talking about how ballgroup players dont even enjoy playing that way. Yes we do. It's a game meant to have fun on. We do have fun. People always say this. How can you talk for other people's enjoyment? And it's not BALLGROUPING that is inherently op. I understand that HEALING is very strong rn. But, you can be JUST as effective with 5 people. 5 people is not a ballgroup. Its voice coms, optimization and min maxing and experience in group play. PROPERLY organised groups will always beat much greater numbers of unorganised enemies (if the players are good enough that is). And it should be this way. People just seem to ignore this whole fact and just blame the game...

But one of the hard facts is that the average ballgroup/smallscale player is better than the average zerg player because playing in ballgroup/smallscale environment encourages pvp skill growth whereas zerging doesn't. (pvp meaning player combat, not sieging).

NotTaylorSwift

Youyouz06 wrote: »

Einstein_ wrote: »

Summary:

Optimized Groups:
- mostly experienced players
- years of playing together
- highly optimized group builds
- every important buff there is in the game
- setup with well defined roles
- voice comunication / lead
- hundrets of hours of training just in this group composition
- analysis of logs and videos after every raid

VS

A bunch of players on some random builds with mostly not alot experiance (experienced players dont tryhard ballgroups).
- nothing of what i mentioned above.


guess who wins.....

you can try to nerf whatevery you want the optimized group will always win and it should be like that.

'A highly optimized group that has played for years, forged in the heart of battle...'

But they use harmony+grave robbers+vicious death+every available buff that they require and they play/contribute in/to 'Lag'. Sounds fun!

I agree with OP, those days are over (tried/done/next). Most of the time on EU, there is so little action that these groups just join the general zergs and if they are to take a homekeep for farming, people just stop going and ignore them.

So you run naked in pvp? Do you avoid buffs? Skilled players dont use buffs? Literally every good pvp build ever uses the most buffs it can get access to...

You also contribute to lag. If you play cyro you contribute to lag there.

There is action on EU.

None of what you said makes sense. Sorry.

Attilla7814

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

Youyouz06 wrote: »

Einstein_ wrote: »

Summary:

Optimized Groups:
- mostly experienced players
- years of playing together
- highly optimized group builds
- every important buff there is in the game
- setup with well defined roles
- voice comunication / lead
- hundrets of hours of training just in this group composition
- analysis of logs and videos after every raid

VS

A bunch of players on some random builds with mostly not alot experiance (experienced players dont tryhard ballgroups).
- nothing of what i mentioned above.


guess who wins.....

you can try to nerf whatevery you want the optimized group will always win and it should be like that.

'A highly optimized group that has played for years, forged in the heart of battle...'

But they use harmony+grave robbers+vicious death+every available buff that they require and they play/contribute in/to 'Lag'. Sounds fun!

I agree with OP, those days are over (tried/done/next). Most of the time on EU, there is so little action that these groups just join the general zergs and if they are to take a homekeep for farming, people just stop going and ignore them.

So you run naked in pvp? Do you avoid buffs? Skilled players dont use buffs? Literally every good pvp build ever uses the most buffs it can get access to...

You also contribute to lag. If you play cyro you contribute to lag there.

There is action on EU.

None of what you said makes sense. Sorry.

the only action i see from you guys is taking fare or bb and farming the same 15-20 randoms over and over again. Have you ever messed up with other ballgroups on greyhost in the last months?

xylena_lazarow

Optimized team play is not the problem. Nobody is complaining that organized groups exist or that they are more powerful than disorganized randoms. The complaints are about the stale meta dominated by a single powerful "ball" strat, which often lends itself to dragging out and stalemating fights well after objectives have been decided.