The very concept of ball groups is outdated

Kordai

The days of actual zergs are long gone. With max pop at 80. Having a group of 12 be able to go head to head against 60 players (their own words) is laughable. Although actually that 12 v 60 was before yet more ball group buffs because naturally they needed them. This concept is destroying new players willingness to stay in pvp and along with the overall skill ceiling/floor gap being way too bug and poor performance is one of the reasons pvp is dying.

Their is no other game I have ever played or can find any record of where the overall power difference is this ridiculous. Ball groups countering zergs is nice when their is an actual number difference, which is literally the definition of zerg. But now that pop cap has dropped and ball group power has not changed the overall balance just gets worse and worse. If there's 2 ad ball groups that can each fight just 40, and 20 pugs, they should be able to take 100 ep. When you literally can't have 100 ep anymore it starts to become unbalanced. As the population shrinks, this just becomes worse. If you have a ball group that can fight 40 and they have 20 pugs with them for a total of 32 players that can take 60, if there are only 40 enemies, it's just a slaughter.

For the new players this complete inability to do anything is just frustrating. There is no challenge to overcome, it's just pointless to even attempt. They aren't going to try to farm in a resource of flag a keep to try to pull the ball group to them so the rest of the faction can attack something because they don't really care about being a distraction. So they can either keep dying or leave. It's just not fun.

Why did they change major and minor courage in the first place? Did it really need to be buffed to a hilarious degree? Figuring no individual class/weapon passives besides major sorcery/brutality and olorimes and clevers on a solo: olorime's gives 510 (just major) while clever's gives 810 (just major). Clever's is only 1 person with a less than 50% uptime (but typically even less) while olorime's is up to 12 people with an easy 100% uptime. But in a 12 person group and now clever's gives 891 (solo, major and minor) and olorime's gives 6812 (total group, major and minor). Olorime's is a top tier damage set on a solo if you can use it without compromising your build completely, and then sits at top set when you are in a group of 2 or higher. In what world should a group set be this good compared to solo sets? With fewer downsides than alot of them (double barred sets, or NMA skill cost increase) and better uptime than alot of them (briarheart, clever's, bsw).

OBJnoob

I agree that group support sets shouldn't be stronger than self buff procs. Hopefully they bring some sets and buffs in line.

That's the only thing I agree with here though.

You can't nerf ball groups no matter what you do. Its just a bunch of hardcore players who took the time to study and implement the meta for group synergy and strength. If you take set a away and skill b gets merged then okay THAT is no longer the meta. But there will be a new "best," they will find it and use it, and through their superior teamwork will be able to fight larger numbers than themselves.

If 80 of one faction is getting demolished by a single ball group of another faction... Well, the one faction just isn't very talented is it? There's no change you can make to the game where bad players will beat good players.

The best strategy in such a case is to spread the 80 man zerg out into 3 or 4 separate armies and attack things simultaneously. The ball group is designed to stick together and as such can only defend one thing at a time. If they split up they lose their ability to stack every single buff in the game on themselves and this too can lead to victory.

That's the only answer friend, sorry.

Einstein_

Summary:

Optimized Groups:
- mostly experienced players
- years of playing together
- highly optimized group builds
- every important buff there is in the game
- setup with well defined roles
- voice comunication / lead
- hundrets of hours of training just in this group composition
- analysis of logs and videos after every raid

VS

A bunch of players on some random builds with mostly not alot experiance (experienced players dont tryhard ballgroups).
- nothing of what i mentioned above.


guess who wins.....

you can try to nerf whatevery you want the optimized group will always win and it should be like that.

xylena_lazarow

Einstein_ wrote: »

guess who wins.....

Nobody wins. The pugs can't wipe the ballgroup, but the ballgroup can't flip the objective.

Einstein_

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Einstein_ wrote: »

guess who wins.....

Nobody wins. The pugs can't wipe the ballgroup, but the ballgroup can't flip the objective.

They always can, if they stay long enugh PuGs get tired and leave.

AuraNebula

Ball groups aren't even the issue. Performance is.

MipMip

Kordai wrote: »

For the new players this complete inability to do anything is just frustrating.

This was not what I experienced as a new player - when I first came to Cyrodiil I saw ball groups playing and I was immediately fascinated by the idea of minmaxed group play, and I joined one

xylena_lazarow

Einstein_ wrote: »

They always can, if they stay long enugh PuGs get tired and leave.

I don't think it's a healthy meta when outcomes are decided by boredom.

Kartalin

Kordai wrote: »

With max pop at 80.

Is this confirmed to be true? Do you have a source? The last confirmed number I've heard is 200. We speculate that it has been lowered over time but as far as I know there hasn't been a definitive answer.

Keep in mind at least 25% of each faction is doing [snip] all at any given time, standing around afk, hanging out at the gates deciding what to do, questing in cities, chasing down dolmens and skyshards for achievements, etc.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Kordai

The days of actual zergs are long gone. With max pop at 80. Having a group of 12 be able to go head to head against 60 players (their own words) is laughable. Although actually that 12 v 60 was before yet more ball group buffs because naturally they needed them. This concept is destroying new players willingness to stay in pvp and along with the overall skill ceiling/floor gap being way too bug and poor performance is one of the reasons pvp is dying.

Their is no other game I have ever played or can find any record of where the overall power difference is this ridiculous. Ball groups countering zergs is nice when their is an actual number difference, which is literally the definition of zerg. But now that pop cap has dropped and ball group power has not changed the overall balance just gets worse and worse. If there's 2 ad ball groups that can each fight just 40, and 20 pugs, they should be able to take 100 ep. When you literally can't have 100 ep anymore it starts to become unbalanced. As the population shrinks, this just becomes worse. If you have a ball group that can fight 40 and they have 20 pugs with them for a total of 32 players that can take 60, if there are only 40 enemies, it's just a slaughter.

For the new players this complete inability to do anything is just frustrating. There is no challenge to overcome, it's just pointless to even attempt. They aren't going to try to farm in a resource of flag a keep to try to pull the ball group to them so the rest of the faction can attack something because they don't really care about being a distraction. So they can either keep dying or leave. It's just not fun.

Why did they change major and minor courage in the first place? Did it really need to be buffed to a hilarious degree? Figuring no individual class/weapon passives besides major sorcery/brutality and olorimes and clevers on a solo: olorime's gives 510 (just major) while clever's gives 810 (just major). Clever's is only 1 person with a less than 50% uptime (but typically even less) while olorime's is up to 12 people with an easy 100% uptime. But in a 12 person group and now clever's gives 891 (solo, major and minor) and olorime's gives 6812 (total group, major and minor). Olorime's is a top tier damage set on a solo if you can use it without compromising your build completely, and then sits at top set when you are in a group of 2 or higher. In what world should a group set be this good compared to solo sets? With fewer downsides than alot of them (double barred sets, or NMA skill cost increase) and better uptime than alot of them (briarheart, clever's, bsw).

OBJnoob wrote: »

I agree that group support sets shouldn't be stronger than self buff procs. Hopefully they bring some sets and buffs in line.

That's the only thing I agree with here though.

You can't nerf ball groups no matter what you do. Its just a bunch of hardcore players who took the time to study and implement the meta for group synergy and strength. If you take set a away and skill b gets merged then okay THAT is no longer the meta. But there will be a new "best," they will find it and use it, and through their superior teamwork will be able to fight larger numbers than themselves.

If 80 of one faction is getting demolished by a single ball group of another faction... Well, the one faction just isn't very talented is it? There's no change you can make to the game where bad players will beat good players.

The best strategy in such a case is to spread the 80 man zerg out into 3 or 4 separate armies and attack things simultaneously. The ball group is designed to stick together and as such can only defend one thing at a time. If they split up they lose their ability to stack every single buff in the game on themselves and this too can lead to victory.

That's the only answer friend, sorry.

I have nothing wrong with coordinated groups being better, they should. By how much is the issue.

You do realize that there can be other pugs or ball groups on besides 1 right? 80-12 leaves 68 other player slots open FYI. Sure no doubt if there are 80 people on one faction and literally nobody on the other factions except 1 ball groups then you're correct... but that hasn't happened in the history of the game and so I discounted it as a possibility.

Stamicka

I’m not really sure what some of your post means, but I agree that the concept of ball groups are outdated. Ball Groups used to be for countering massive groups back when Cyrodiil could actually hold massive groups. They were built to kill bigger groups than themselves. At this point the ballgroupers are just as bad as the zerg groups they’re supposed to be killing. They probably even outnumber the Zerg groups half the time with how dead PvP is.

OBJnoob

Kordai wrote: »

I have nothing wrong with coordinated groups being better, they should. By how much is the issue.

You do realize that there can be other pugs or ball groups on besides 1 right? 80-12 leaves 68 other player slots open FYI. Sure no doubt if there are 80 people on one faction and literally nobody on the other factions except 1 ball groups then you're correct... but that hasn't happened in the history of the game and so I discounted it as a possibility.

Im sorry I thought organized ballgroups were the problem and I was trying to provide an explanation and/or solution just for that. If the other enemies can also best you and your group then… … …

Stamicka wrote: »

They probably even outnumber the Zerg groups half the time with how dead PvP is.

I mean if that’s true then it’s not a Zerg is it? Anyway this particular topic is about 12 v 60 apparently. Which is only laughable if you imagine those 60 people actually all fighting the ballgroup at the same time. Which is almost certainly not the case. I’ve been in zergs, who hasn’t, my favorite way to participate in a Zerg is by running solo and just tagging along. I’m sure I’m not the only one who can’t hear the “crown,” or multiple “crowns.” All of whom I’m sure are screaming at their groups DONT Chase…. Fight on ram… stay on crown. The crappy players are chasing and dying. The loyal players are on ram, waiting to be wiped after their numbers are depleted. The players who think they’re good are doing the same thing the crappy players are doing only dying a little slower. Then the other groups might be hitting a wall. Or running along the walls fighting. Or sieging. All disorganized amongst themselves let alone with each other.

How many of those 60 do you think drop ulti when some crown calls it out? And where?

You’ll never get rid of ball groups nor the advantage they have. And if they are so unstoppable why are you saying the idea of them is outdated? I’m so confused.

But confused or not, lest I put my foot in my mouth, let’s be clear that good and/or organized players will always beat bad or disorganized players. There’s nothing to fix. It’s the way it should be. It’s the way it has to be, whether new players like it or not.

LarsS

Here we go again I wonder how many anti ballgroup threads there have been over the years.

Cuddlypuff

You just need like 2-3 decent players in the "60" to dumpster any average ball group. The reason I dislike them is the unplayable lag they create when they stack on top of the faction zerg due to their inability to fight outnumbered.

Amottica

With the 12 v 60 example is OP suggesting the entire cap for Cyrodiil campaigns capped at 80 (essentially less than 30 per alliance)?

Please provide the source for that level of a cap.

VaranisArano

The very concept of ball groups is outdated.
Or...
Ball groups are so dominant in low-pop PVP that it's actively unfun for everyone not in a ball group.

Come on, pick one.

Amottica

VaranisArano wrote: »

The very concept of ball groups is outdated.
Or...
Ball groups are so dominant in low-pop PVP that it's actively unfun for everyone not in a ball group.

Come on, pick one.

I think this summs things up.

Low pop PvP will always have some drawback PvP wise due to fewer Players to have PvP.

Gaeliannas

Kartalin wrote: »

Kordai wrote: »

With max pop at 80.

Is this confirmed to be true? Do you have a source? The last confirmed number I've heard is 200. We speculate that it has been lowered over time but as far as I know there hasn't been a definitive answer.

Keep in mind at least 25% of each faction is doing [snip] all at any given time, standing around afk, hanging out at the gates deciding what to do, questing in cities, chasing down dolmens and skyshards for achievements, etc.

From what I have seen lately, I am under the impression it has been recently lowered closer to 50 per faction.

[edited to remove quote]

Cuddlypuff

Gaeliannas wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Kordai wrote: »

With max pop at 80.

Is this confirmed to be true? Do you have a source? The last confirmed number I've heard is 200. We speculate that it has been lowered over time but as far as I know there hasn't been a definitive answer.

Keep in mind at least 25% of each faction is doing [snip] all at any given time, standing around afk, hanging out at the gates deciding what to do, questing in cities, chasing down dolmens and skyshards for achievements, etc.

From what I have seen lately, I am under the impression it has been recently lowered closer to 50 per faction.

On Gray Host, addons often report 100+ players of 1 faction during a siege. If you assume some AFKs and questers, the absolute cap would appear to be ~120.

[edited to remove quote]

Amottica

Gaeliannas wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Kordai wrote: »

With max pop at 80.

Is this confirmed to be true? Do you have a source? The last confirmed number I've heard is 200. We speculate that it has been lowered over time but as far as I know there hasn't been a definitive answer.

Keep in mind at least 25% of each faction is doing [snip] all at any given time, standing around afk, hanging out at the gates deciding what to do, questing in cities, chasing down dolmens and skyshards for achievements, etc.

From what I have seen lately, I am under the impression it has been recently lowered closer to 50 per faction.

How do you gauge that? None of us can actually see how many players are in the campaign. We can only see how many are where we are. Guessing, shots in the dark, tend to lack actual basis.

[edited to remove quote]

Gaeliannas

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

Gaeliannas wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Kordai wrote: »

With max pop at 80.

Is this confirmed to be true? Do you have a source? The last confirmed number I've heard is 200. We speculate that it has been lowered over time but as far as I know there hasn't been a definitive answer.

Keep in mind at least 25% of each faction is doing [snip] all at any given time, standing around afk, hanging out at the gates deciding what to do, questing in cities, chasing down dolmens and skyshards for achievements, etc.

From what I have seen lately, I am under the impression it has been recently lowered closer to 50 per faction.

On Gray Host, addons often report 100+ players of 1 faction during a siege. If you assume some AFKs and questers, the absolute cap would appear to be ~120.

Which addon does that, or what function of the addon? I am absolutely interested in knowing.

Amottica wrote: »

Gaeliannas wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Kordai wrote: »

With max pop at 80.

Is this confirmed to be true? Do you have a source? The last confirmed number I've heard is 200. We speculate that it has been lowered over time but as far as I know there hasn't been a definitive answer.

Keep in mind at least 25% of each faction is doing [snip] all at any given time, standing around afk, hanging out at the gates deciding what to do, questing in cities, chasing down dolmens and skyshards for achievements, etc.

From what I have seen lately, I am under the impression it has been recently lowered closer to 50 per faction.

How do you gauge that? None of us can actually see how many players are in the campaign. We can only see how many are where we are. Guessing, shots in the dark, tend to lack actual basis.

As I said, just my impression, mostly based on losing everything on the map and our entire pop locked faction being in one or two places and nothing at all going on on the map from us. Which of course there could be a few stay folks riding around somewhere, but just seemed like there are never more than 40 of us in one place, even when we are apparently all (or close to all) there. No basis in fact at all, just an impression that compared to a few months ago, there are a lot less folks around and in fights... and almost never more than one fight on the map anymore.

[edited to remove quote]

Cuddlypuff

Gaeliannas wrote: »

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

Gaeliannas wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Kordai wrote: »

With max pop at 80.

Is this confirmed to be true? Do you have a source? The last confirmed number I've heard is 200. We speculate that it has been lowered over time but as far as I know there hasn't been a definitive answer.

Keep in mind at least 25% of each faction is doing [snip] all at any given time, standing around afk, hanging out at the gates deciding what to do, questing in cities, chasing down dolmens and skyshards for achievements, etc.

From what I have seen lately, I am under the impression it has been recently lowered closer to 50 per faction.

On Gray Host, addons often report 100+ players of 1 faction during a siege. If you assume some AFKs and questers, the absolute cap would appear to be ~120.

Which addon does that, or what function of the addon? I am absolutely interested in knowing.

Amottica wrote: »

Gaeliannas wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Kordai wrote: »

With max pop at 80.

Is this confirmed to be true? Do you have a source? The last confirmed number I've heard is 200. We speculate that it has been lowered over time but as far as I know there hasn't been a definitive answer.

Keep in mind at least 25% of each faction is doing [snip] all at any given time, standing around afk, hanging out at the gates deciding what to do, questing in cities, chasing down dolmens and skyshards for achievements, etc.

From what I have seen lately, I am under the impression it has been recently lowered closer to 50 per faction.

How do you gauge that? None of us can actually see how many players are in the campaign. We can only see how many are where we are. Guessing, shots in the dark, tend to lack actual basis.

As I said, just my impression, mostly based on losing everything on the map and our entire pop locked faction being in one or two places and nothing at all going on on the map from us. Which of course there could be a few stay folks riding around somewhere, but just seemed like there are never more than 40 of us in one place, even when we are apparently all (or close to all) there. No basis in fact at all, just an impression that compared to a few months ago, there are a lot less folks around and in fights... and almost never more than one fight on the map anymore.

The addon is called Miat's PVP alerts. The headcount feature is nice but I think it needs to remove the ability to alert when specific enemies are within the area. It's the reason I don't play nightblade or bother to use invis pots for initiation anymore.

[edited to remove quote]

deleted221205-002626

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

Gaeliannas wrote: »

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

Gaeliannas wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Kordai wrote: »

With max pop at 80.

Is this confirmed to be true? Do you have a source? The last confirmed number I've heard is 200. We speculate that it has been lowered over time but as far as I know there hasn't been a definitive answer.

Keep in mind at least 25% of each faction is doing [snip] all at any given time, standing around afk, hanging out at the gates deciding what to do, questing in cities, chasing down dolmens and skyshards for achievements, etc.

From what I have seen lately, I am under the impression it has been recently lowered closer to 50 per faction.

On Gray Host, addons often report 100+ players of 1 faction during a siege. If you assume some AFKs and questers, the absolute cap would appear to be ~120.

Which addon does that, or what function of the addon? I am absolutely interested in knowing.

Amottica wrote: »

Gaeliannas wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Kordai wrote: »

With max pop at 80.

Is this confirmed to be true? Do you have a source? The last confirmed number I've heard is 200. We speculate that it has been lowered over time but as far as I know there hasn't been a definitive answer.

Keep in mind at least 25% of each faction is doing [snip] all at any given time, standing around afk, hanging out at the gates deciding what to do, questing in cities, chasing down dolmens and skyshards for achievements, etc.

From what I have seen lately, I am under the impression it has been recently lowered closer to 50 per faction.

How do you gauge that? None of us can actually see how many players are in the campaign. We can only see how many are where we are. Guessing, shots in the dark, tend to lack actual basis.

As I said, just my impression, mostly based on losing everything on the map and our entire pop locked faction being in one or two places and nothing at all going on on the map from us. Which of course there could be a few stay folks riding around somewhere, but just seemed like there are never more than 40 of us in one place, even when we are apparently all (or close to all) there. No basis in fact at all, just an impression that compared to a few months ago, there are a lot less folks around and in fights... and almost never more than one fight on the map anymore.

The addon is called Miat's PVP alerts. The headcount feature is nice but I think it needs to remove the ability to alert when specific enemies are within the area. It's the reason I don't play nightblade or bother to use invis pots for initiation anymore.

You dont really need an addon to know if theres enemies nearby, the music changes

[edited to remove quote]

Cuddlypuff

sinnereso wrote: »

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

Gaeliannas wrote: »

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

Gaeliannas wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Kordai wrote: »

With max pop at 80.

Is this confirmed to be true? Do you have a source? The last confirmed number I've heard is 200. We speculate that it has been lowered over time but as far as I know there hasn't been a definitive answer.

Keep in mind at least 25% of each faction is doing [snip] all at any given time, standing around afk, hanging out at the gates deciding what to do, questing in cities, chasing down dolmens and skyshards for achievements, etc.

From what I have seen lately, I am under the impression it has been recently lowered closer to 50 per faction.

On Gray Host, addons often report 100+ players of 1 faction during a siege. If you assume some AFKs and questers, the absolute cap would appear to be ~120.

Which addon does that, or what function of the addon? I am absolutely interested in knowing.

Amottica wrote: »

Gaeliannas wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Kordai wrote: »

With max pop at 80.

Is this confirmed to be true? Do you have a source? The last confirmed number I've heard is 200. We speculate that it has been lowered over time but as far as I know there hasn't been a definitive answer.

Keep in mind at least 25% of each faction is doing [snip] all at any given time, standing around afk, hanging out at the gates deciding what to do, questing in cities, chasing down dolmens and skyshards for achievements, etc.

From what I have seen lately, I am under the impression it has been recently lowered closer to 50 per faction.

How do you gauge that? None of us can actually see how many players are in the campaign. We can only see how many are where we are. Guessing, shots in the dark, tend to lack actual basis.

As I said, just my impression, mostly based on losing everything on the map and our entire pop locked faction being in one or two places and nothing at all going on on the map from us. Which of course there could be a few stay folks riding around somewhere, but just seemed like there are never more than 40 of us in one place, even when we are apparently all (or close to all) there. No basis in fact at all, just an impression that compared to a few months ago, there are a lot less folks around and in fights... and almost never more than one fight on the map anymore.

The addon is called Miat's PVP alerts. The headcount feature is nice but I think it needs to remove the ability to alert when specific enemies are within the area. It's the reason I don't play nightblade or bother to use invis pots for initiation anymore.

You dont really need an addon to know if theres enemies nearby, the music changes

If you are a bomber or ganker main, people literally add your name to the list for a more pronounced visual/audio cue. That's why sometimes people act super suss on a resource flag or door, running around magelighting / flaring corners etc.

[edited to remove quote]

Kordai

OBJnoob wrote: »

Kordai wrote: »

I have nothing wrong with coordinated groups being better, they should. By how much is the issue.

You do realize that there can be other pugs or ball groups on besides 1 right? 80-12 leaves 68 other player slots open FYI. Sure no doubt if there are 80 people on one faction and literally nobody on the other factions except 1 ball groups then you're correct... but that hasn't happened in the history of the game and so I discounted it as a possibility.

Im sorry I thought organized ballgroups were the problem and I was trying to provide an explanation and/or solution just for that. If the other enemies can also best you and your group then… … …

Stamicka wrote: »

They probably even outnumber the Zerg groups half the time with how dead PvP is.

I mean if that’s true then it’s not a Zerg is it? Anyway this particular topic is about 12 v 60 apparently. Which is only laughable if you imagine those 60 people actually all fighting the ballgroup at the same time. Which is almost certainly not the case. I’ve been in zergs, who hasn’t, my favorite way to participate in a Zerg is by running solo and just tagging along. I’m sure I’m not the only one who can’t hear the “crown,” or multiple “crowns.” All of whom I’m sure are screaming at their groups DONT Chase…. Fight on ram… stay on crown. The crappy players are chasing and dying. The loyal players are on ram, waiting to be wiped after their numbers are depleted. The players who think they’re good are doing the same thing the crappy players are doing only dying a little slower. Then the other groups might be hitting a wall. Or running along the walls fighting. Or sieging. All disorganized amongst themselves let alone with each other.

How many of those 60 do you think drop ulti when some crown calls it out? And where?

You’ll never get rid of ball groups nor the advantage they have. And if they are so unstoppable why are you saying the idea of them is outdated? I’m so confused.

But confused or not, lest I put my foot in my mouth, let’s be clear that good and/or organized players will always beat bad or disorganized players. There’s nothing to fix. It’s the way it should be. It’s the way it has to be, whether new players like it or not.

? I'm presuming a general equal is skill/gear effectiveness when comparing enemies. Can't exactly nitpick every single ad vs every single ep vs every single dc's effectiveness can I? You said "If 80 of one faction is getting demolished by a single ball group of another faction". My counter was that that's never the case. If every faction has 80 people on it, what are the other 68 people doing? Watching the ball group instead of pvping?

"You’ll never get rid of ball groups nor the advantage they have. And if they are so unstoppable why are you saying the idea of them is outdated? I’m so confused."

My argument was that the concept that made them necessary early on when proxy was created. When the actual population cap in cyrodiil was 1800, you had massive zergs. Ball groups were made to largely counter those big zergs. And when you have massive numbers ball groups were fine and still didn't have a crazy impact because of the total population size. As population dropped and dropped to the current max cap of 240 total, they power difference simply went up and up. Hypothetically if the pop cap was reduced even further to 40 people, would you still argue that they aren't OP?

I feel like people keep missing the point, I never said that ball groups shouldn't be good just HOW good they should be. Just reread my OP again I guess I don't feel like rewording it all.

Kordai

VaranisArano wrote: »

The very concept of ball groups is outdated.
Or...
Ball groups are so dominant in low-pop PVP that it's actively unfun for everyone not in a ball group.

Come on, pick one.

I hate to be the one to break it to you but the original pop cap of 1800 isn't still a thing. Your options literally aren't exclusive so not quite sure what you're talking about. But if you consider max pop to be low pop I can see your confusion.

Again :My argument was that the concept that made them necessary early on when proxy was created is now outdated as happens when this thing called "time" passes and changes are made. When the actual population cap in cyrodiil was 1800, you had massive zergs. Ball groups were made to largely counter those big zergs. And when you have massive numbers ball groups were fine and still didn't have a crazy impact because of the total population size. As population dropped and dropped to the current max cap of 240 total, they power difference simply went up and up. Hypothetically if the pop cap was reduced even further to 40 people, would you still argue that they aren't OP?

Kordai

Amottica wrote: »

With the 12 v 60 example is OP suggesting the entire cap for Cyrodiil campaigns capped at 80 (essentially less than 30 per alliance)?

Please provide the source for that level of a cap.

Pop cap for each faction is 80, was 600 originally. They don't talk about it much as it doesn't paint their performance "fixes" well.

DrSlaughtr

Einstein_ wrote: »

Summary:

Optimized Groups:
- mostly experienced players
- years of playing together
- highly optimized group builds
- every important buff there is in the game
- setup with well defined roles
- voice comunication / lead
- hundrets of hours of training just in this group composition
- analysis of logs and videos after every raid

VS

A bunch of players on some random builds with mostly not alot experiance (experienced players dont tryhard ballgroups).
- nothing of what i mentioned above.


guess who wins.....

you can try to nerf whatevery you want the optimized group will always win and it should be like that.

Respectfully, allow me the opportunity to counter some of this and the usual ball group messaging.

Ball group are not doing anything special. Since 24 man groups were killed, a vast majority of groups are on coms and are organized. The only thing separating them from ball groups is they do not want to be told what class to run, what sets to run, and what 3-4 skills to spam.

So what makes it so hard for an organized group who are timing their ultimates and doing all the usual things that should allow 18 to 24 organized players from effectively fighting a 12 man ball group?

One, they take advantage of the environment which cannot be destroyed. Running around towers and rocks which block siege and allow them drag out combat until they are ready to ulti dump again. Because these environments cannot be destroyed, it is a distinct disadvantage for the opposition. Smart players won't play this game. If you run up into a keep tower, the group goes back to the dance floor. The issue becomes that after 15 minutes of this game people start getting made at the stalemate and either surrender the keep to the ball group, which is unacceptable, or they get aggressive and try to attack the ball group in the tower. You can't exactly blame people for this, because who just wants to give up a keep they just fought for, and since I can't blow up that tower to force you out, there is no other choice.

Two, they take advantage of sets which continue to come out that really only work well on a ball group. Dark Convergence at this point is almost exclusively run by ball groups, with the occasional solo necro bomber rolling in. We have sets now that allow healers to buff the damage of everyone in the group, allowing them to further go tankier (see below).

Three, A ball group, unlike an organized group, does not need to build for individual damage. They can build tankier, lower damage builds, because their 2-3 healers can drastically increase their damage, while they stack a specific set of AOEs and DC procs to murder everyone in their path. On the flip side, some ball groups are now going more damage on their front line, and instead running 4 healers who can hot stack the group out of massive incoming damage. Neither of these things require skill. It's just exploiting the mechanics of the game.

Four, weapons against them have been taken away. Siege damage has been reduced several times. NB bombers have been reduced to a shadow of their former selves.

Five, negate is pretty useless these days against ball groups. This use to be the ball group killer.

Six, Plaguebreak has had about zero effect on ball groups because ball groups do not need to purge. Their healing is too strong.

Seven, funny enough, most ball groups don't seek out other ball groups. They instead follow easier prey, rather than going into a fair fight. This leads to threads like this, where non-ballers get upset because they feel targeted (they are).

As for everyone else.

An organized group can be, and often is, running just as tight as a ball group. Their weakness is they don't want to be boxed in to these cookie cutter rolls. Most people actually want to play the classes they like and don't find running ball groups a rewarding experience, anymore than I find speed running a trial a rewarding experience.

Think of it this way. A ball group is the PVP version of Trial Speed Run Group. They don't care about the experience of running the trial, executing the mechanics and defeating the boss efficiently. They want to go into vCR+3 and win in 3 minutes. There's nothing wrong with that and I enjoy watching those videos, but it seems very boring to me. That's exactly what I felt after doing a ball group for a year.

But some people love it, and that's great, but I do take exception to this idea that they are somehow superior to an organized, non-ball 12 man group with healers. Both teams are playing the game in a way they enjoy, and both are trying to win, but in different ways. My group wants to play the map, help the faction, and fight. A ball group only wants to fight (according to the ones I know) and maximize AP output.

Both are valid playstyles. I disagree with anyone who says otherwise. But the only reason ball groups can do what they do is because of weaknesses in the game engine and sets being introduced that helps no one but ball groups while everyone else isn't given any actual counters to them.

Solutions:

They could bring back destroyable towers but they won't because they went away for a reason (performance).

They could introduce a ballista that does normal damage to 1 person but drastically increases based on the number of targets hit. Ball groups aren't going to use them and they can't be used to kill defenders on a wall from the ground outside. This would also help defend keeps from pug zergs.

Stop adding sets that seem geared toward trial set ups but are usable by ball groups (without being beneficial to everyone else).

End HoT stacking. Slightly increase overtime heals to keep healers relevant. Hit solo heals harder so the individual members cannot burst through themselves. (Yes, this would hurt solo players, but heals are out of control for everyone right now, even solo players).

Here's where I'll end this. If I have 16 organized people in party chat, with healers and timed ultimates, I should be able to go toe to toe with a 12 man ball group. Maybe I lose. Maybe they lose. Maybe we trade back and forth, but the point is it's competitive. What we have now is an overwhelming advantage is given to the ball group and it has zero to do with being "better" at the game. If I copied 11 of me's playing my top NB, I would wreck groups left and right. That doesn't make my group "better." It's me exploiting the mechanics afforded to me. There is no secret sauce. There are no ESO PVP Olympics where people train for a year to be the best.

Every time we have a PTS with changes or new sets, every ball group quickly learns what will be the new meta for ball groups and they prepare for it, just like most other players with their favorite classes. So this idea that ball group players are somehow more advanced than others I think is incorrect, and if anything, I believe it takes more skill to run a 12 man organized non-ball group. Just my two cents. Sorry for the ramble.

VaranisArano

Kordai wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

The very concept of ball groups is outdated.
Or...
Ball groups are so dominant in low-pop PVP that it's actively unfun for everyone not in a ball group.

Come on, pick one.

I hate to be the one to break it to you but the original pop cap of 1800 isn't still a thing. Your options literally aren't exclusive so not quite sure what you're talking about. But if you consider max pop to be low pop I can see your confusion.

Again :My argument was that the concept that made them necessary early on when proxy was created is now outdated as happens when this thing called "time" passes and changes are made. When the actual population cap in cyrodiil was 1800, you had massive zergs. Ball groups were made to largely counter those big zergs. And when you have massive numbers ball groups were fine and still didn't have a crazy impact because of the total population size. As population dropped and dropped to the current max cap of 240 total, they power difference simply went up and up. Hypothetically if the pop cap was reduced even further to 40 people, would you still argue that they aren't OP?

The current population cap is absolutely "low pop" compared to what we had even a few years ago. The lower the population gets, the more dominant ball groups get because it's harder and harder to counter them with a faction stack. Drop that to 40, and you can kiss any plans of breaking a properly built, trained 12-player Ball group goodbye.

But you can't go claiming something is dominant and outdated in the same breath.

Organized groups don't purely exist to counter zergs. In fact, it's pretty obvious that current ball groups exist to farm objectives, zergs, hordes of unorganized players for AP. They do that really, really well right now. Ball groups are still dominating the campaigns because they are the opposite of outdated. They are more dominant now because there are less semi-organized players around to oppose them.

Are they outdated?
Or are they overpowered?
Pick one.

(I prefer to run in a "Ball group" style guild. We're overpowered. We're absolutely not "outdated" when you consider that our playstyle has only gotten more powerful as the population gets smaller. The concept of "play in an organized group in voice comms" doesn't become outdated just because our enemies have gotten less powerful/numerous.)

xylena_lazarow

VaranisArano wrote: »

Are they outdated? Or are they overpowered? Pick one.

I think the OP was trying to express being tired of a stale meta. ZOS could nuke the ball meta and it wouldn't change who the strong coordinated groups are, but it might make large scale PvP more fun for pugs/casuals/solos. How many more years of these sort of threads and a declining PvP population do we need exactly?

Lebkuchen

Kordai wrote: »

Pop cap for each faction is 80, was 600 originally. They don't talk about it much as it doesn't paint their performance "fixes" well.

I have spent thousands of hours in Cyrodiil, and i have seen some situations where you could count almost all players. For example: One alliance with a very long queue has been gated by both enemy aliances, and there was only one scroll left at the temple. Nothing else was under attack, no big fights anywhere else. Everyone was either sitting somewhere in the 2 homebases, or waiting at the scroll. I do not think anyone would wait over an hour in queue to go for master angler achievement or delve bosses. So if you traveled to these 3 places (as a member of the bullied alliance) you could see how many players were actually online. And i feel like it has been way less than 80 for a long time, at least on Playstation EU. I would say maybe 40-60.

It would be really interesting to know the real numbers, and if they changed in some situations, like PvP events or weekends.

I hope they will fix Cyrodiil instead of letting it die, and i hope we can have massive fights again one day. ESO is one of my favourite games but i would have stopped playing it years ago if Cyrodiil did not exist.