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Sword and board... wasted potential?
drsalvation
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I'm still disappointed on the sword and shield updates (at least from what I've read, I haven't played them, not sure if those changes are live yet or not).
Most of its skills still feel completely useless except for puncture and shield charge (for obvious reasons, 1 - to taunt, 2 - as a gap closer with a stun).
The rest of the skills are still quite pointless... defensive stance is a joke considering it doesn't reflect bow skills, mages do channeled skills that can't be reflected, and the only purpose of damage shields in PvP are to waste your resources since they'll be gone in a single attack even with CP.
Low slash decreases movement speed, which again, it's not the best choice considering that caltrops do the same and even better since it's a whole AoE you can throw at a long distance AND deals damage over time.
Power slam was the skill that had the most potential for a tank, instead it's pandering for DPS (because this game only cares for damage builds, the fact that we have an armory to switch builds says it all... instead of making support roles actually fun AND viable, just make one for a specific use, and then switch to your damage build for everything else).
I know "tAnKs aReN'T sUppOsEd tO dO dAmAgE"
but power slam would've been a great way for a tank to actually have a fun AND engaging way to play: As the tank, you taunt, then you block as you accumulate stacks of resentment, and then you blow the enemy with a power slam that serves as an execution too, and it would be easy to counter in PvP: Burst damage, and stop attacking if you see the tank blocking.
Instead, no more stacks, just a simple 33% buff on the first block because of course, DPS don't need to block, tanks do. And they had to take that away from tanks. All they had to do was make power slam scale off of max health (or armor).
But now that I gave up tanking and started actually having fun with the game as a damage dealer, I still wish I could depend on sword and shield to do all my heavy lifting.
Instead I have to backbar a 2h weapon to get the rally buff and then spam my class abilities to deal the actual damage, while sword and shield is just decorative.
I feel like sword and shield has so much potential that's just being ignored.
Defensive stance could have an aggressive stance morph that increases your damage akin to 2H's rally or DW's hidden blade (But unlike rally, you don't get a burst heal in the end, instead you get it by absorbing projectiles for the first 6 seconds, but you sacrifice the damage shield).
Low-slash could be the spammable DPS (use the pointy/sharp hand that was meant to hurt do the actual damage), akin to 2H's uppercut
Power-slam should've been a tank's retaliation by scalling damage based on health and how much damage has been blocked, and one morph should've been a cone release for an AoE attack, or the other morph should've been an execution akin to 2H's execution.
And lastly, taunt skills in PvP should work the same way that Vanguard's Challenge set works, but with less impact (instead of 35% dmg reduction, do 10%, and maybe show a beam connecting to the player who taunted you so that you know which one to kill first before you regain your full damage)
I'm glad at least power slam is now bash damage.
But there's just so much more that could've been done.
I'm willing to accept that a tank can't do damage and is only there to be a meat shield and buff up other players, I'd be willing to stick to that role, but why does the weapon set itself have to be relegated to the same purpose with no viable uses? Tanks still get one-shot regardless of how many damage shields there are, and the S&B damage shield from defensive posture isn't nearly as good as the one from templar which increases with each enemy nearby, or the one from undaunted which also reflects incoming damage.
If I need to switch to a dmg build to enjoy the rest of the game's content, can I at least bring sword and shield with me for actual use and not just as a decoration while my class skills and 2H weapons do all the heavy lifting (And if you did manage to make a cool sword and shield build where the weapons do your lifting for you, let me know. Kuroyuki builds are nice, but again, it's all class skills, my current build does the work, but it's all just class skills and 2H backbar)
Edited by ZOS_Hadeostry on March 21, 2022 8:13PM Most of its skills still feel completely useless except for puncture and shield charge (for obvious reasons, 1 - to taunt, 2 - as a gap closer with a stun).
The rest of the skills are still quite pointless... defensive stance is a joke considering it doesn't reflect bow skills, mages do channeled skills that can't be reflected, and the only purpose of damage shields in PvP are to waste your resources since they'll be gone in a single attack even with CP.
Low slash decreases movement speed, which again, it's not the best choice considering that caltrops do the same and even better since it's a whole AoE you can throw at a long distance AND deals damage over time.
Power slam was the skill that had the most potential for a tank, instead it's pandering for DPS (because this game only cares for damage builds, the fact that we have an armory to switch builds says it all... instead of making support roles actually fun AND viable, just make one for a specific use, and then switch to your damage build for everything else).
I know "tAnKs aReN'T sUppOsEd tO dO dAmAgE"
but power slam would've been a great way for a tank to actually have a fun AND engaging way to play: As the tank, you taunt, then you block as you accumulate stacks of resentment, and then you blow the enemy with a power slam that serves as an execution too, and it would be easy to counter in PvP: Burst damage, and stop attacking if you see the tank blocking.
Instead, no more stacks, just a simple 33% buff on the first block because of course, DPS don't need to block, tanks do. And they had to take that away from tanks. All they had to do was make power slam scale off of max health (or armor).
But now that I gave up tanking and started actually having fun with the game as a damage dealer, I still wish I could depend on sword and shield to do all my heavy lifting.
Instead I have to backbar a 2h weapon to get the rally buff and then spam my class abilities to deal the actual damage, while sword and shield is just decorative.
I feel like sword and shield has so much potential that's just being ignored.
Defensive stance could have an aggressive stance morph that increases your damage akin to 2H's rally or DW's hidden blade (But unlike rally, you don't get a burst heal in the end, instead you get it by absorbing projectiles for the first 6 seconds, but you sacrifice the damage shield).
Low-slash could be the spammable DPS (use the pointy/sharp hand that was meant to hurt do the actual damage), akin to 2H's uppercut
Power-slam should've been a tank's retaliation by scalling damage based on health and how much damage has been blocked, and one morph should've been a cone release for an AoE attack, or the other morph should've been an execution akin to 2H's execution.
And lastly, taunt skills in PvP should work the same way that Vanguard's Challenge set works, but with less impact (instead of 35% dmg reduction, do 10%, and maybe show a beam connecting to the player who taunted you so that you know which one to kill first before you regain your full damage)
I'm glad at least power slam is now bash damage.
But there's just so much more that could've been done.
I'm willing to accept that a tank can't do damage and is only there to be a meat shield and buff up other players, I'd be willing to stick to that role, but why does the weapon set itself have to be relegated to the same purpose with no viable uses? Tanks still get one-shot regardless of how many damage shields there are, and the S&B damage shield from defensive posture isn't nearly as good as the one from templar which increases with each enemy nearby, or the one from undaunted which also reflects incoming damage.
If I need to switch to a dmg build to enjoy the rest of the game's content, can I at least bring sword and shield with me for actual use and not just as a decoration while my class skills and 2H weapons do all the heavy lifting (And if you did manage to make a cool sword and shield build where the weapons do your lifting for you, let me know. Kuroyuki builds are nice, but again, it's all class skills, my current build does the work, but it's all just class skills and 2H backbar)
4
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TumlinTheJolly✭✭✭✭I play SnB front AND back bar NB in BGs, just cos SnB
. TLDR the change to Power Slam ruins SnB skill line enjoyment and identity.
The main thing I'd like to touch on after reading this is the spammable. Keep in mind that both Puncture (during proc meta due to old Tremorscale) and Low Slash (before damage nerf) have functioned as the spammable in the past. In my opinion, making Power Slam the spammable was the best thing they've ever done for SnB, however they've butchered it again. When they made Power Slam gain damage charges from number of attacks blocked (up to 10 max), they finally gave the skill line unique offensive identity and a niche. Prior to this, SnB functioned more like 2H, with an identity of charge in and smash. The Slam rework shifted the identity of the skill line toward that of turning defense into offense. You'd soak, soak, soak, then turn on them HARD. It made for a very fun and unique play style. Now they've gone and changed it to 1 block = 33% bonus damage on next hit. This has shifted the playstyle back to a more generic charge and smash, which in my opinion is a mistake. I think the best thing they could do would be to revert this change, however the max charges doesn't have to be 10 as previous... even 3 or 5 would be enough. This way the skill still could still function as a viable spammable, but the skill line would regain identity. And yes, I have been playing the reworked skill in BGs since patch dropped, so can confirm that the experience is less enjoyable.
Re other skills:
-Invasion morph should be reworked. Extra stun duration is pointless, as CC break exists. Shielded Assault is in a good place.
-Changing Defensive Posture from a projectile shield to generic shield was great. I actually cast Absorb Missile a lot (the defensive morph). As you've mentioned, this skill and its morphs need to cover a larger range of abilities, such as bow abilities. Defensive Stance (the offensive morph) could do with a slight buff to its reflect component, as it's not worth the GCD to return damage at a 1 to 1 ratio when you don't know which projectile you're going to reflect.
-I don't have strong opinions re anything to do with the current state of Puncture or Low Slash + morphs
Edited by TumlinTheJolly on March 21, 2022 9:33AM2 -
Iron_Warrior✭✭✭✭✭I love sword and shield in generally all games, it's my favourite playstyle, but i started to hate sword and shield skill line in eso the moment they decided to nerf puncture and low slash damage and make power slam the spammable. It's stupid beyond belief that hitting enemy with your sheild deals more damage than hitting them with your sword. It's a video game and video games should feel good when you play them but a shield bash being the spammable doesn't feel good at all.5 -
TumlinTheJolly✭✭✭✭Iron_Warrior wrote: »It's stupid beyond belief that hitting enemy with your sheild deals more damage than hitting them with your sword.
This is a valid point. As per my above comment though, I like the mechanic. Maybe they could put they damage charging from block onto a morph of Puncture or Low Slash instead of Slam, so you're still moving between block and burst but hitting with your weapon.
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bachpain✭✭✭✭I have to agree that the nerf to bash was a kick to the groin regardless of what they do to power bash. I mean to get bash damage to be ANYTHING worth using you have to go all in and totally destroy all other DPS output as well as just about every other meaningful stat. You need bash glyphs so you are not going to have any spell/weapon damage or regens from jewelry. You have to at the very least have one 5 piece set that buffs your bash damage. Before it was worth it to empower a spammable attack replacement regardless of what weapon you were on at the time. Now bash even with all of that is anemic and you have to do all of that for ONE single skill that requires a sword and board -- nothing else benefits from all of the investment.
They took that niche build that was fun to experiment with and have fun memeing around bashing the snot out of stuff that was actually viable (because of heavy investment, practice, and skill like any other build) and made it one skill on the bar worth using. Meanwhile people are heavy attacking with a flame staff for 32k+ damage.
As to the other S/B skills they are useful or were useful before u33 for the buffs that they gave. Now so many other sources can give the maim and breech more effectively now with potent DPS attached regardless of DPS spec. Tanks and healers have been further relegated to towel holders for DPS this update.4 -
drsalvation✭✭✭✭✭TumlinTheJolly wrote: »Iron_Warrior wrote: »It's stupid beyond belief that hitting enemy with your sheild deals more damage than hitting them with your sword.
This is a valid point. As per my above comment though, I like the mechanic. Maybe they could put they damage charging from block onto a morph of Puncture or Low Slash instead of Slam, so you're still moving between block and burst but hitting with your weapon.
And as I mentioned, the mechanic of absorbing damage and then blasting it feels like it should've been for tanks/bruisser builds, tanks aren't fun anymore, they're not viable, so keeping the mechanic of blocking and then releasing all damage would've worked better if it scaled off of max health instead of damage. Meanwhile DPS could still use the parts of the weapons that were meant to deal damage (sword, mace, axe) and not the one meant to block it (shield).
Since they completely got rid of the stacks to favor DPS in its entirely with just 33% and a single block, they got rid of the fun aspect of that mechanic, and they got rid of any hopes of tanks being a fun way to play the game, and what was the point of it? What did they even try to achieve with that rework?2 -
drsalvation✭✭✭✭✭
As to the other S/B skills they are useful or were useful before u33 for the buffs that they gave. Now so many other sources can give the maim and breech more effectively now with potent DPS attached regardless of DPS spec. Tanks and healers have been further relegated to towel holders for DPS this update.
Irrelevant or out of topic, feel free to skip
I completely agree with that last statement. To me it was since armory was introduced, it felt like instead of making support roles viable and fun, they just gave us an option to switch to DPS and have fun with that and only use support builds for very specific moments.
I mean, there are DPS checks, but I don't think I've ever come across a single 'tank check', considering that tanks still get one-shot if they don't follow mechanics. The only type of 'tank check' I ever had to deal with and actually had fun was during a veteran dungeon (forgot the name, it's where you find tormentor set), the optional bonus is killing the main boss with at least 3 daedroth spawned, but since I was in a low dps team, daedroth kept spawning over and over and over, by the end, I was tanking 11 daedroth, I died when the boss was at 3%, and fortunately the guys were able to defeat the boss before the train of daedroth got to them. It was the ONLY time in the whole game where I felt it was worth having an optimized tank build to its core. And if you look at Vateshran, there was no need to punish tanks with one-shot deaths for failing the DPS check in the ring of ghosts in the final boss. Tanks get swarmed with enemies in that fight, so it's not an "easy" battle, and if tanks could survive the explosion, while DPS couldn't, then the DPS check would STILL be a necessity, and the arena would be fun to play with as tanks, instead we gotta switch to DPS and move on.
Back to topic
But anyway, this isn't about tanking anymore lol.
And yeah, invasion is also pretty useless. Bosses don't get stunned by it, players will break free unless out of stamina, which barely ever happens. I remember skyrim you could sprint and block to blow enemies out of your path, maybe make it a short-range skill that knocks down opponents like piercing javelin? Or maybe keep the range and make it similar to streak, where you could run over multiple opponents in your path?
And there was a time I was on hiatus from this game, and even if I was still playing, I'd probably still be tanking, but I never knew puncture would also work as a spammable for DPS, sounds like an amazing era I missed out on for tanking
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DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭Not every skill line should be good at everything. Having a shield gives you access to the best defense in the game. I know people are mad about bash nerf. You can hit it multiple times a second and people were hitting 5k bashes on recaps.
No one in PvE wants the defense of sword and board lowered to add more damage to the line, and no one in pvp wants to just have a defensive bar without a big damage skill.
Can't make everyone happy, ya know?I drink and I stream things.
Twitch: DrSlaughtr
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drsalvation✭✭✭✭✭TheEndBringer wrote: »Not every skill line should be good at everything. Having a shield gives you access to the best defense in the game. I know people are mad about bash nerf. You can hit it multiple times a second and people were hitting 5k bashes on recaps.
No one in PvE wants the defense of sword and board lowered to add more damage to the line, and no one in pvp wants to just have a defensive bar without a big damage skill.
Can't make everyone happy, ya know?
Except the "defensive" skills are also mediocre at defending. The rework for bash serves no real purpose or adds to any fun mechanics. In PvP your best defense is a tree or anything that breaks line of sight.3 -
Icy_Nelyan✭✭✭I don't know you, I Just rerolled a templar with sword and board as main weapon set, using Power slam, puncture (the penetration morph) and low slash (the minor heroism morph), in BG I easly erase people, in CP campaigns 1v1 hardly someone can kill me, I don't play neither like 1vX so... BTW I stand on a 32k health with around 43% res on both spell and armor with 7k penetraion (not counting the puncture debuff) and 6k WD (with Just Major brutality).
I like the changes on the last patch, they made me able to build a character I ever wanted to play and now it's possible, I can understand that in a full tank build the changes could be "pointless", but my build Is pretty tanky in PVP and not a Speedy One shot DPS like many others these days.0 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭drsalvation wrote: »TheEndBringer wrote: »Not every skill line should be good at everything. Having a shield gives you access to the best defense in the game. I know people are mad about bash nerf. You can hit it multiple times a second and people were hitting 5k bashes on recaps.
No one in PvE wants the defense of sword and board lowered to add more damage to the line, and no one in pvp wants to just have a defensive bar without a big damage skill.
Can't make everyone happy, ya know?
Except the "defensive" skills are also mediocre at defending. The rework for bash serves no real purpose or adds to any fun mechanics. In PvP your best defense is a tree or anything that breaks line of sight.
Who needs a tree? Half the classes can stand there, block heal, then burn people down.I drink and I stream things.
Twitch: DrSlaughtr
YouTube: DrSlaughtr
Facebook: DrSlaughtr
Twitter: DrSlaughtr
TikTok: DrSlaughtr1 -
drsalvation✭✭✭✭✭Icy_Nelyan wrote: »I don't know you, I Just rerolled a templar with sword and board as main weapon set, using Power slam, puncture (the penetration morph) and low slash (the minor heroism morph), in BG I easly erase people, in CP campaigns 1v1 hardly someone can kill me, I don't play neither like 1vX so... BTW I stand on a 32k health with around 43% res on both spell and armor with 7k penetraion (not counting the puncture debuff) and 6k WD (with Just Major brutality).
I like the changes on the last patch, they made me able to build a character I ever wanted to play and now it's possible, I can understand that in a full tank build the changes could be "pointless", but my build Is pretty tanky in PVP and not a Speedy One shot DPS like many others these days.
hm, really? Any chance I could get build details and possibly a video?
I'm not a fan of my current build (I mean, it works, but I feel like I'm not having fun with it) and Kuroyuki's builds are similar to mine (all class skills, only one SnB skill). So I'm curious to see how you're making yours work0 -
Extinct_Solo_Player✭✭✭✭✭drsalvation wrote: »Icy_Nelyan wrote: »I don't know you, I Just rerolled a templar with sword and board as main weapon set, using Power slam, puncture (the penetration morph) and low slash (the minor heroism morph), in BG I easly erase people, in CP campaigns 1v1 hardly someone can kill me, I don't play neither like 1vX so... BTW I stand on a 32k health with around 43% res on both spell and armor with 7k penetraion (not counting the puncture debuff) and 6k WD (with Just Major brutality).
I like the changes on the last patch, they made me able to build a character I ever wanted to play and now it's possible, I can understand that in a full tank build the changes could be "pointless", but my build Is pretty tanky in PVP and not a Speedy One shot DPS like many others these days.
hm, really? Any chance I could get build details and possibly a video?
I'm not a fan of my current build (I mean, it works, but I feel like I'm not having fun with it) and Kuroyuki's builds are similar to mine (all class skills, only one SnB skill). So I'm curious to see how you're making yours work
Sword and board dps really sucks man, I wouldn't really get your hopes up. You have to sacrifice overall heals and sustain to make bash work and even then the bash weaving of powerslam is really clunky. It will never be like how it was before zos decided to gut everything snb dps related 3 months after elsweyr in response to the insane dot damage scaling used in combination with snb dps. I used to main snb for the longest time, but its really not worth to touch the skills on there compared to everything else.2 -
Sparxlost✭✭✭my suggestion
Sword and board passive (might want to rename this)
all snb skills and attacks deal 50-100% more damage to enemies below half health and have this replace the one that increases the weapons damage
Deep slash
move the aoe from this ability to heroic slash and add a bleed over time effect to it instead
Defensive posture
make this a toggle ability which drains a small amount of magicka and slowly regenerates the shield overtime (might need to adjust or rework the other abilities of the morphs)
Deflect bolts
change this to 20% overall block increase instead
this might be game breaking but honestly i would love to try snb with these changes at least for a week on pts2 -
Icy_Nelyan✭✭✭drsalvation wrote: »Icy_Nelyan wrote: »I don't know you, I Just rerolled a templar with sword and board as main weapon set, using Power slam, puncture (the penetration morph) and low slash (the minor heroism morph), in BG I easly erase people, in CP campaigns 1v1 hardly someone can kill me, I don't play neither like 1vX so... BTW I stand on a 32k health with around 43% res on both spell and armor with 7k penetraion (not counting the puncture debuff) and 6k WD (with Just Major brutality).
I like the changes on the last patch, they made me able to build a character I ever wanted to play and now it's possible, I can understand that in a full tank build the changes could be "pointless", but my build Is pretty tanky in PVP and not a Speedy One shot DPS like many others these days.
hm, really? Any chance I could get build details and possibly a video?
I'm not a fan of my current build (I mean, it works, but I feel like I'm not having fun with it) and Kuroyuki's builds are similar to mine (all class skills, only one SnB skill). So I'm curious to see how you're making yours work
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=431238
Let me know if the link works. The build works perfectly for me and my play style, as already stated the changes made this build possible 😊.1 -
drsalvation✭✭✭✭✭Icy_Nelyan wrote: »drsalvation wrote: »Icy_Nelyan wrote: »I don't know you, I Just rerolled a templar with sword and board as main weapon set, using Power slam, puncture (the penetration morph) and low slash (the minor heroism morph), in BG I easly erase people, in CP campaigns 1v1 hardly someone can kill me, I don't play neither like 1vX so... BTW I stand on a 32k health with around 43% res on both spell and armor with 7k penetraion (not counting the puncture debuff) and 6k WD (with Just Major brutality).
I like the changes on the last patch, they made me able to build a character I ever wanted to play and now it's possible, I can understand that in a full tank build the changes could be "pointless", but my build Is pretty tanky in PVP and not a Speedy One shot DPS like many others these days.
hm, really? Any chance I could get build details and possibly a video?
I'm not a fan of my current build (I mean, it works, but I feel like I'm not having fun with it) and Kuroyuki's builds are similar to mine (all class skills, only one SnB skill). So I'm curious to see how you're making yours work
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=431238
Let me know if the link works. The build works perfectly for me and my play style, as already stated the changes made this build possible 😊.
Thanks a lot! I'm gonna try this build, looks fun! I appreciate it!1 -
Icy_Nelyan✭✭✭The build is supposed make use of poisons, and I'm not a fun of 1vX so I donno how It works in that scenario.
Enjoy 😊Edited by Icy_Nelyan on March 25, 2022 4:59PM0 -
drsalvation✭✭✭✭✭Thanks, now that the update is available on consoles I can actually try it for real now hehe.0
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sharquez✭✭✭✭✭
✭I've been having a great time on my bash sorc, It doesnt feel as crazy strong as templar or DK on a non niche build but it's fun and viable in BGs and overland and can tank with a few skill swaps. Finally found a home for my jolting arms
At least 3 of each class. PVPing Since IC.0 -
drsalvation✭✭✭✭✭Yeah, I mean, even tho there are some fun and viable builds (I never liked bashing as the main source of spammable damage), I still stand by my main point, it feels like there's just so much more that sword and shield could be.
Especially power bash. I'm still a bit salty about it, it should've scaled by max health and keep the 10 stacks of resentment, make it a tank's retribution.
Without the stacks of resentment, and still catering to damage builds, it removes the "counter" style type of fight, and it keeps making tanks the most painfully boring type of support roles when playing solo.
As I mentioned, Armory is there so you can ditch your support role and switch to the only role the game wants you to have (damage) to play the rest of it.
And with the current update, there's still not many skills that add much value to that skill line (other than substitutes in case you don't have the better alternatives). There's a psijic skill that also breaks armor WITHOUT taunting the enemy.
Jabs now grant you a damage boost (for 10 seconds) making it the best alternative of getting buffed AND dealing damage.
I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm glad I can now use sword and shield as the main source of damage, it's the least I wanted and now it's easier to do so, and while I still think that skill line could be a lot better, I guess beggars can't be choosers at this point.1 -
Icy_Nelyan✭✭✭I guess the problem is one and is common to each skill lines: when they designed ESO they choose to implement classes for some weird reason, now the game growth so much that players commonly use skills from different skill lines at once (counting also that initially they designed the skills to male players rely on weapon stamina skills as spammable and base damage and magicka skills from classes and other means as a side additionaly way to deal damage and possibly more damage but not so many times at once).
This led the designers to kinda update all skills from each existing skill lines, but because they still have classes and can't do anything about that, and because the character classe have to be chosen on creation (giving the class a sort of importante, otherwise It could be chosen in game in someway and not beforehand), they have to give classes a better relevance; so class skills will always be a better choice over anything else because of game design.
I mean, this is my point of view and actually any class skills are better of other skills coming from other skill lines, it is so since ever (that's why the original view of "how to play" of zenimax is totally changed once people starter play the game).
Obviously if you slot jabs are a better player, is preferibly to slot dragon's blood over resto staff blessing protection for solo, clearly necro pure Is way Better then assault purge, because classes have to have relevance because they are chosen along races; I hate this with all my self, but It Is the way the game Is designed, you can choose weapons inside game and can switch them at choice, classes are chosen in creation; I can e wrong but in 8 years I never seen a skill being Better then a class skill, even Wreaking Blow way back in the past which was giving more damage to skills and stun, still was a casted skill with at times lower damage then class skills or higher cost.0 -
MudcrabAttack✭✭✭✭Sword and board should provide a way to proc a weapon enchantment while you’re on another weapon bar1 -
Wandering_Immigrant✭✭✭✭Idk @drsalvation , power slam is one of the strongest spammables in the game now. It has a higher tooltip than snipe on my 1h&s/bow character, and by a pretty significant amount I might add, and that's before the 33% proc. And you're complaining that you no longer have to build up 10 stacks, which took forever btw, to get the full effect? I think the rework is fantastic, it still encourages and rewards heavy blocking but by allowing us to use power slam in between every other block I can actually counter my opponent blow for blow instead of just turtling up.
I thought the old mechanic was awful I felt punished for wanting to play with 1h&s. Most things in PvE would be dead long before you ever reached 10 stacks, and in PvP no one worth fighting is gonna sit there pounding on you while you're holding your shield up and waste their resources. I've been using power slam on this character for a long time, since before the 10 stack mechanic, and this is by far the best iteration of it. I would even go as far as to say this is the best the skill line has felt. Sure it was maybe stronger when your best spammables were also you best utility abilities in puncture and low slash, but this is more balanced and feels more like a shield warrior.
I realize you're on console and made this thread before getting the patch, I am too for what it's worth, so I'm curious if you still feel the same after getting a chance to play around with it?
I do get what you're saying about wanting it to scale from health and/or resistance. For me personally that would ruin it for the character I've been using it on all this time since she gets all her defense from good use of block mitigation and stacking percent mitigation, but I do understand the notion. Honestly it's still going to be fairly decent and your best spammable on a tanker build just because it's base damage is so much higher than other spammables.Edited by Wandering_Immigrant on April 3, 2022 6:53PM0 -
drsalvation✭✭✭✭✭Icy_Nelyan wrote: »I guess the problem is one and is common to each skill lines: when they designed ESO they choose to implement classes for some weird reason, now the game growth so much that players commonly use skills from different skill lines at once (counting also that initially they designed the skills to male players rely on weapon stamina skills as spammable and base damage and magicka skills from classes and other means as a side additionaly way to deal damage and possibly more damage but not so many times at once).
This led the designers to kinda update all skills from each existing skill lines, but because they still have classes and can't do anything about that, and because the character classe have to be chosen on creation (giving the class a sort of importante, otherwise It could be chosen in game in someway and not beforehand), they have to give classes a better relevance; so class skills will always be a better choice over anything else because of game design.
I mean, this is my point of view and actually any class skills are better of other skills coming from other skill lines, it is so since ever (that's why the original view of "how to play" of zenimax is totally changed once people starter play the game).
Obviously if you slot jabs are a better player, is preferibly to slot dragon's blood over resto staff blessing protection for solo, clearly necro pure Is way Better then assault purge, because classes have to have relevance because they are chosen along races; I hate this with all my self, but It Is the way the game Is designed, you can choose weapons inside game and can switch them at choice, classes are chosen in creation; I can e wrong but in 8 years I never seen a skill being Better then a class skill, even Wreaking Blow way back in the past which was giving more damage to skills and stun, still was a casted skill with at times lower damage then class skills or higher cost.
And I agree, this game started with a strong identity for classes, templars were healers, nightblades were stam damage, sorcs were mag damage, DK were tanks. They all had the skills that could be used for other roles, but they were the main purpose, and since you said it yourself, there's no way to change classes, instead of giving us a chance to switch, classes started becoming more of a "one for all" sort of thing. Same with weapon skills.
I saw lots of potential for tank builds assuming the game would try to make every role fun, but yeah, that's not gonna happen anymore. It's my main disappointment. I'm still having fun don't get me wrong, it's just disappointing seeing that the game is steering away from what I thought it would've been...
But that's honestly on me and my expectations lol.
@Wandering_Immigrant I'm not complaining that bash isn't powerful, what I'm saying is more tied to roles, weapon, and play styles in general. I was hoping that the damage power bash deals would instead be in low-slash (nothing would change other than the animation) and just make the turtle mechanic of power bash more tank-oriented (after all, tanks DO need to block)
But yeah, I got a chance to play with the rework now, I'm not complaining about it being a spammable, it's very effective, especially when combined with power of the light, and as DPS you don't need to waste stamina anymore, which is cool for PvP.
I still think the other skills need the reworks I mentioned above, and part of me still wishes that the actual damage came from the sword and not the shield, but that's just nitpicking at this point lol.
Like, power bash could still have a base version which is what we have now, 1 block for 33% dmg dealt, but that morph should be the base skill. Then the first morph would be DPS oriented with an extra: Accumulating some stacks, maybe 5, would release the bash in a cone AoE where enemies nearby take 50% dmg of the original damage dealt to the first enemy.
And the second morph would be tank oriented, where you stack up to 10 stacks and scale off your base health. The 10th stack would also stun (but only if it's 10 stacks). It would make the tanking role somewhat more fun to play, and damage builds can still work with the current style.Edited by drsalvation on April 7, 2022 12:57AM0 -
Ksariyu✭✭✭✭I'd made a post a week or so ago talking about how the access to power between roles feels drastically out of balance and in favor of DPS players. I got a lot of hate from people who feel that having any defensive potential means your damage needs to be next to nothing otherwise it's broken. So as long as that's the majority of the community's opinion, then 1H/Shield is always going to be relegated to this boring, passive, group-only playstyle.2
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alberichtano✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheEndBringer wrote: »Not every skill line should be good at everything. Having a shield gives you access to the best defense in the game. I know people are mad about bash nerf. You can hit it multiple times a second and people were hitting 5k bashes on recaps.
No one in PvE wants the defense of sword and board lowered to add more damage to the line, and no one in pvp wants to just have a defensive bar without a big damage skill.
Can't make everyone happy, ya know?
Not really. The unkillables I see in Cyro rarely if ever have shields. While I, with shield, die like a wingless fly meeting a nuke. Now I am far from leet, admittedly, but still, the idea that shields give better than average defens is just not true anymore.3 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭alberichtano wrote: »TheEndBringer wrote: »Not every skill line should be good at everything. Having a shield gives you access to the best defense in the game. I know people are mad about bash nerf. You can hit it multiple times a second and people were hitting 5k bashes on recaps.
No one in PvE wants the defense of sword and board lowered to add more damage to the line, and no one in pvp wants to just have a defensive bar without a big damage skill.
Can't make everyone happy, ya know?
Not really. The unkillables I see in Cyro rarely if ever have shields. While I, with shield, die like a wingless fly meeting a nuke. Now I am far from leet, admittedly, but still, the idea that shields give better than average defens is just not true anymore.
i think this is a combination of how powerful healing is and the fact that its not all that difficult to get to 33k resist (especially if someone is running something like pariah)0 -
drsalvation✭✭✭✭✭I'd made a post a week or so ago talking about how the access to power between roles feels drastically out of balance and in favor of DPS players. I got a lot of hate from people who feel that having any defensive potential means your damage needs to be next to nothing otherwise it's broken. So as long as that's the majority of the community's opinion, then 1H/Shield is always going to be relegated to this boring, passive, group-only playstyle.
Definitely agree. People keep saying that tanks should only be there as meat shields and to buff up already OP DPS builds.
Any PvP game with classes will offer any role a way to actually kill opponent players, although their specialty is their role. Healers, tanks, etc, they are all useful in PvP content (I'm talking about games that were made with PvP in mind as their primary style, such as for honor, or overwatch).
People in this game don't like playing support roles because the game simply doesn't make it any fun. As for me, even tho I've been enjoying the rest of the game, it just feels wrong that I'm not tanking anymore when I usually always tank. And as I stated before, the introduction of armory meant that support roles will never be viable, armory was meant for us to ditch support and move to damage (at least it's now convenient instead of having to pay 20k gold each time I want to respec to switch roles).
I still had some thread of hope for tanks to be fun with the potential play style of sword and shield (again, making power bash scale off of health and allow for tanks to deal a massive burst damage). But that's gone now. There's a lot of reasons to min/max your DPS build, there's a few reasons to max out your healing build, but there's really no reasons to max out a tank build, considering there's no way to survive one-shot kill mechanics weather you have 33k armor and a tonload of health or not (I still find no reasons why tanks should get punished for failing a DPS check in vateshran)
So at least as a damage build, I can have a bit more fun with sword and shield, I don't like using shield bashing as main source of damage and would rather make low-slaash be the spammable of the skills, but at least now I can use S&S as the main source of damage, so I guess that's cool.0 -
Icy_Nelyan✭✭✭Guys we have (Just for an example, otherwise there are more broken combs) DKs which has whip which heals, stun which heals, an Active skill which fires a healing fireball every 3 secs, a dot which heals, dragon Blood, then comes the resto staff HOT, plus they run with around 30k HP, 33k armor and spell res on heavy armor, plus a pretty decente DPS and attacks some CP with some passive "reduce X% damage" like Protection.
Now tell me, in which world a character like that can be beaten, you either have to be lucky to stun when no heals are in effects and still you have to have around 18k pene with something like 6k WP/sp, or you have to outnumber him/her, or maybe you have to tiè the fight with you and him/her being alive.
This example comes withiut sword and board from a totally normal player having pariah and around 900 CP, now Gold out the entire Gear, use something like Magma incarnate or Malcath ring and you have an unkillable DPS which tanks, heals and erase people in gorups of 5 together against him/her.
Balance, this strange mistery...0 -
drsalvation✭✭✭✭✭yeah, I'm gonna get lynched and defenestrated, but I still think hard-capping everything is the only way to truly balance the game, and builds become more of a matter of taste and not need.
I will always hate getting one-shot by random stealthy nightblades, and other people will always hate that they can't instantly kill other players, nobody will be happy.
There's so much I think is wasted potential in the tanking role in general, but I think that's out of topic, when this was originally sword and shield alone (but considering it could've been better for tanking roles as well, it's not that far off).0