Tanks: what are your thoughts on balancing selfish vs support gear in PUG dungeons?

Oreyn_Bearclaw

My preference for pug tanking, not that I am an expert, is one selfish set and one group set.

Leeching can be your selfish set, but something like Ebon is also a bit of a hybrid, gives everyone lots of health. Really anything that stacks health or armor can qualify here. Its the selfish set, so pick the one you want. Another hybrid if you will is Yolnahkriin, especially the prefected version. You get double health and stam, plus you get minor aegis (selfish and fairly tanky). You also get a nice group damage buff (minor Courage) when you taunt, so easy to keep up.

For a group set, considering you are running pugs, almost certainly the best thing to focus on is group penetration. Sets like PA (gives spell weapon damage) assume you are at the pen cap, and the reality is, most pug groups arent at the cap, because most pugs don't even know what the pen cap is.

If your DPS are not at the cap, best way to increase damage is almost always to focus penetration. Crimson Oath is really hard to beat in this department. Taunt with pierce every 12 seconds, and you are giving major/minor breach to the target and an AOE pen buff of 3500. Combine with a back bar infused crusher glyph and your favorite weapon ground AOE, and your DPS are only going to need like 4k pen to be at the cap, which almost everyone will have without trying. If you get into more organized groups, and you know your DPS are all overpenetrating with Crimson, then perhaps look to run something like powerful assault in its place.

In terms of a monster set, the reality is this may be the area where you carry multiple sets depending on what you are doing. I am old school and like two one piece bonuses (mag regen) here. Magma incarnate is a nice one piece because it gives both mag and stam regen. Shadowrend and Chokethorn are also one piece mag regen. Makes it easy to spam chains, but there are probably better options for specific fights.


I was actually looking at building a newer version of my pug tank as I havent updated it in a few years (still wearing Ebon/Torugs). My inclination is Yolna/Crimson Oath, unless someone tries to talk me out of it.

fred4

The short answer is: You can't win. More accurately: You can't please everyone.

I play a "selfish" tank. Some people will praise you for carrying the group. Others will bite your head off for playing a build they disagree with. Only one thing is for certain: Your PUG mates are the fairest of fair weather friends. If the group succeeds, they'll be quiet or express their hapineess. As soon as anything goes wrong, they'll leave, kick you, or become toxic.

I think the cutoff point where you need a conventional tank are the more recent DLC vet dungeons. Any normal dungeons, any base game vet dungeons and some older vet DLC dungeons, such as the IC ones and Cradle of Shadows, can basically be soloed, except where mechanics or tedium get in the way. Accordingly I play a solo build with a taunt. Up to that level of difficulty I'll carry the group. Some groups don't need that. Some do, because they have no damage to speak of. My build does damage. 60K AOE damage is common and maybe 13K single target. The group dies? It doesn't matter. I'll rez or I'll just finish the fight.

My build is a Brawler build. It's got 40K health and capped resistances. It also has 42% crit. It uses the ubiquitous Master's 2H weapon and the Tormentor set for an AOE taunt. Double 2H. You rush in with Stampede. You're sure to be the first one there and taunt everything. Then you kill everything. I have 4K to 5K health regen plus Crit Surge. I meditate for resources and more self-healing, if needed. The build also works in the solo arenas and in vDSA.

I wore Bahraha's a long time ago. The game has so many sets, it takes years to cycle through them all and get a feel for them. By the time you're done, everything has changed. That said, I doubt Bahraha's or that whole approach is any good, compared to what I'm running. If you're being selfish, there is no need to aim so low in terms of damage. Those proc sets will do a certain amount of damage and healing, but I presume you're going with 1H+S and a conventional blocking tank. My instinct: You won't come anywhere near the damage you do with Brawler and 40% crit. The base 1K weapon / spell damage everyone gets these days makes it possible and the damage shield from Brawler is sufficient for everything up to the level that I mentioned. In fact, as far as self-healing goes, the Brawler shield outperforms everything I know of by protecting your actual heals from being consumed and letting them top you up most of the time. Consequently you shouldn't be wearing Bahraha's Curse. You should wear Vicious Ophidian, so you can sustain Brawler.

I'm starting to sound like the people I hate. People who espouse their own meta above all else. Thus, let me contradict myself. By all means, run Bahraha and Leeching Plate. See how that goes. There are too many options in the game to test them all. All I'm saying is that, among the ones I've tested that make you tanky and self-sufficient, wearing Pale Order solo, being a magplar, stamina Brawler builds stand head and shoulders above the rest. You have noticeably better survival than a magplar in solo play. If you're a stamsorc on top of that, healing from Crit Surge feels like Pale Order, but without the drawback of that getting diluted in a group. The Brawler shield mixes extremely well with ongoing, moderate self-healing. On a tangent: The fact that it refreshes every second is significant. Shielding sets, such as Hexos Ward, do not come close.

The Brawler approach runs into limits when it comes to the later DLC dungeons. In my original build I deliberately used Gaze of Sithis to see how far I could push a non-blocking build. Like I said, this works fine in the above content. In the later dungeons there are cases where you have to block big hits. In some cases those only happen with a bad group, such as when the group has no DPS and lets the salamanders approach the minotaur boss in Black Drake Villa, sending him into berserk mode. You either run into an actual problem where you should block, or you'll run into a problem where the group starts to blame their shortcomings on the tank who doesn't use 1H+S and rushes around like mad with Stampede instead of taunting the normal way. Did I say "starts to"? Nah, forget that. Toxic comments, group dissolution or being kicked happens immediately.

My build is, thus, really schizophrenic. Up to a certain level I feel it is arguably superior to anything else for PUGs. You can't fail, because you carry the group. Low damage isn't a problem, because you actively carry the group with DPS. You AOE taunt everything with Stampede, minimising risk to the group. Beyond that level, however, you get lucky or you get kicked, even though the build remains situationally very strong. Brawler is fantastic in the final vCauldron fight, for example.

For what it's worth, my two build variations are here:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=421256
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=421109

Note UESP is a little out of date. I now use Dark Deal on the back bar in place of Blinding Flare and I switched to the Thief mundus for more crit.

I strongly recommend the variant with Vicious Ophidian. It is much more fun to have sustain and it's the more active variant of the build. The variant with Cyrodiil's Light was designed to maximise your mitigation while meditating. That makes the difference in some encounters, but it fails in the two new dungeons for example. I therefore recommend switching away from Gaze of Sithis, so you regain block mitigation, and have substituted Lord Warden for the time being, keeping the resistances without otherwise changing the build. It's too early to tell whether that will suffice for all dungeons and hard modes, or whether you need the additional mitigation and block cost reduction from a 1H+S build.

One thing is for sure. You have to pay more attention to mechanics in the most difficult dungeons. However, even when you do, you may run into people that I'd call very rigid and blinkered. People who are used to doing hard modes, skipping mechanics and who may actually rely on the tank buffing them in order to do so. At least that's what they told me and never mind that my build does significant damage of it's own. They also told me "there is no creativity in ESO" (I should just conform) and they assumed a certain standard from me at CP1900. I should have let them know I was running a non-standard build at the start, before wasting their time essentially. This was in vet Icereach, where the group wanted to do hard mode and we failed. Like I said: You can't please everyone.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

fred4 wrote: »

The short answer is: You can't win. More accurately: You can't please everyone.

I play a "selfish" tank. Some people will praise you for carrying the group. Others will bite your head off for playing a build they disagree with. Only one thing is for certain: Your PUG mates are the fairest of fair weather friends. If the group succeeds, they'll be quiet or express their hapineess. As soon as anything goes wrong, they'll leave, kick you, or become toxic.

I think the cutoff point where you need a conventional tank are the more recent DLC vet dungeons. Any normal dungeons, any base game vet dungeons and some older vet DLC dungeons, such as the IC ones and Cradle of Shadows, can basically be soloed, except where mechanics or tedium get in the way. Accordingly I play a solo build with a taunt. Up to that level of difficulty I'll carry the group. Some groups don't need that. Some do, because they have no damage to speak of. My build does damage. 60K AOE damage is common and maybe 13K single target. The group dies? It doesn't matter. I'll rez or I'll just finish the fight.

My build is a Brawler build. It's got 40K health and capped resistances. It also has 42% crit. It uses the ubiquitous Master's 2H weapon and the Tormentor set for an AOE taunt. Double 2H. You rush in with Stampede. You're sure to be the first one there and taunt everything. Then you kill everything. I have 4K to 5K health regen plus Crit Surge. I meditate for resources and more self-healing, if needed. The build also works in the solo arenas and in vDSA.

I wore Bahraha's a long time ago. The game has so many sets, it takes years to cycle through them all and get a feel for them. By the time you're done, everything has changed. That said, I doubt Bahraha's or that whole approach is any good, compared to what I'm running. If you're being selfish, there is no need to aim so low in terms of damage. Those proc sets will do a certain amount of damage and healing, but I presume you're going with 1H+S and a conventional blocking tank. My instinct: You won't come anywhere near the damage you do with Brawler and 40% crit. The base 1K weapon / spell damage everyone gets these days makes it possible and the damage shield from Brawler is sufficient for everything up to the level that I mentioned. In fact, as far as self-healing goes, the Brawler shield outperforms everything I know of by protecting your actual heals from being consumed and letting them top you up most of the time. Consequently you shouldn't be wearing Bahraha's Curse. You should wear Vicious Ophidian, so you can sustain Brawler.

I'm starting to sound like the people I hate. People who espouse their own meta above all else. Thus, let me contradict myself. By all means, run Bahraha and Leeching Plate. See how that goes. There are too many options in the game to test them all. All I'm saying is that, among the ones I've tested that make you tanky and self-sufficient, wearing Pale Order solo, being a magplar, stamina Brawler builds stand head and shoulders above the rest. You have noticeably better survival than a magplar in solo play. If you're a stamsorc on top of that, healing from Crit Surge feels like Pale Order, but without the drawback of that getting diluted in a group. The Brawler shield mixes extremely well with ongoing, moderate self-healing. On a tangent: The fact that it refreshes every second is significant. Shielding sets, such as Hexos Ward, do not come close.

The Brawler approach runs into limits when it comes to the later DLC dungeons. In my original build I deliberately used Gaze of Sithis to see how far I could push a non-blocking build. Like I said, this works fine in the above content. In the later dungeons there are cases where you have to block big hits. In some cases those only happen with a bad group, such as when the group has no DPS and lets the salamanders approach the minotaur boss in Black Drake Villa, sending him into berserk mode. You either run into an actual problem where you should block, or you'll run into a problem where the group starts to blame their shortcomings on the tank who doesn't use 1H+S and rushes around like mad with Stampede instead of taunting the normal way. Did I say "starts to"? Nah, forget that. Toxic comments, group dissolution or being kicked happens immediately.

My build is, thus, really schizophrenic. Up to a certain level I feel it is arguably superior to anything else for PUGs. You can't fail, because you carry the group. Low damage isn't a problem, because you actively carry the group with DPS. You AOE taunt everything with Stampede, minimising risk to the group. Beyond that level, however, you get lucky or you get kicked, even though the build remains situationally very strong. Brawler is fantastic in the final vCauldron fight, for example.

For what it's worth, my two build variations are here:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=421256
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=421109

Note UESP is a little out of date. I now use Dark Deal on the back bar in place of Blinding Flare and I switched to the Thief mundus for more crit.

I strongly recommend the variant with Vicious Ophidian. It is much more fun to have sustain and it's the more active variant of the build. The variant with Cyrodiil's Light was designed to maximise your mitigation while meditating. That makes the difference in some encounters, but it fails in the two new dungeons for example. I therefore recommend switching away from Gaze of Sithis, so you regain block mitigation, and have substituted Lord Warden for the time being, keeping the resistances without otherwise changing the build. It's too early to tell whether that will suffice for all dungeons and hard modes, or whether you need the additional mitigation and block cost reduction from a 1H+S build.

One thing is for sure. You have to pay more attention to mechanics in the most difficult dungeons. However, even when you do, you may run into people that I'd call very rigid and blinkered. People who are used to doing hard modes, skipping mechanics and who may actually rely on the tank buffing them in order to do so. At least that's what they told me and never mind that my build does significant damage of it's own. They also told me "there is no creativity in ESO" (I should just conform) and they assumed a certain standard from me at CP1900. I should have let them know I was running a non-standard build at the start, before wasting their time essentially. This was in vet Icereach, where the group wanted to do hard mode and we failed. Like I said: You can't please everyone.

I think we are getting into 2 competing philosophies of pug tanking.

One is, play the traditional tank role like a tank, knowing that you wont get a lot of support (be a little selfish), but you are also trying to buff group damage where you can. This works really well and can be used in all content, but can ultimately get frustrating when you get into a really low DPS group. For average or high end groups, this is likely what you want.

The other, I am going to meet the bare minimum requirements of tank, keep things taunted, but I am going to be sure I do enough of my own DPS to carry even the lowest of groups along for the ride. This can make for faster runs in Groupfinder with the bottom of the barrel players, but in many ways, its the most selfish of all. These types of builds likely do little to nothing to buff your group, and in harder content you may find that you get pushback from better players. I also think they dont do as much to prepare you for harder content like vet trials, if that's something you may want to explore down the road. The reality is I can tank all normal dungeons and pretty much all vet Non DLC dungeons on my trial DPS mageblade with inner fire as a taunt in place of one of my DOTs. It's tanking, but barely.

There are pros and cons to both styles, just be sure you know which you are doing.

Bitter_Apple21

@Oreyn_Bearclaw

What you said actually made me think of "selfish" tanking in a completely different light.

When I looked at the builds of @fred4 I was amazed at how much stuff is out there that I simply do not. I guess for us noobs, that is the point of being in this game for awhile. That is what comes from being CP1900, being able to pull together more unique or creative builds. His crit, and damage specs were - for me - not even a "tank's" - they were for a DD.

I had considered selfish as being overly tanky (protecting me and ignoring group buffing), but not to the point of "replacing" the group's damage with my damage. The comments from you and @fred4 made me think of things in a different light that the choice could - for certain purposes - make the rest of the group's damage a lower portion of the overall. I guess running dungeons solo would be at least one of them. Carrying a low DPS pug team would be another.

Thanks again for the comments and advice from the experienced.

Much appreciated.

pipestein

I should explain where I am coming form because a lot of people will disagree with what I am saying in this post. I am a tank. it is the role I play and have always played in every MMO I have ever played and I know my role very well.

The whole idea of selfish vs. support sets on a tank for groups seems more than a little asinine to me. In hard veteran content the tank being alive and holding hate is the best utility a DPS can ask for because then they are not getting clapped into next week. I will wear whatever I need to in order to survive the encounter. it is not the tanks responsibility to make the DPS feel better about hitting parse numbers in live content. When did it become a tanks responsibility to stay alive AND provide the increase in DPS through abilities and skills that allow DPS to be successful in their roll? That should be on DPS players should it not?

That being said I am more than happy to wear "support" sets but hey better have an upside for me as the tank. Drakes Rush, Arkasis, the gear from the new dungeons, Lord Warden, etc, these are support sets the directly improve life for the tank that is running them and are sets that I have no problem using. Many people will say that DPS will improve the life of a tank by making the fight shorter, no it will not... I am almost always the last man standing. Long fights are not a problem for me in anyway, they are a problem for DPS that does not like to move out of stupid and who only know how to be parser monkeys. This is not all DPS but it is a fair number of them. Just like not all tanks are good tanks. When people start demanding that I run Powerful Assault or sets that provide them with penetration then I tend to stop listening to what those people are saying, and yes I do run trials and yes I have cleared them and have been very successful doing it. If DPS is not going to build for pen that is on them, not you.

You should use the gear that increases the enjoyment that you get out of the game because this is not a job it should be something that you do for enjoyment.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

pipestein wrote: »

I should explain where I am coming form because a lot of people will disagree with what I am saying in this post. I am a tank. it is the role I play and have always played in every MMO I have ever played and I know my role very well.

The whole idea of selfish vs. support sets on a tank for groups seems more than a little asinine to me. In hard veteran content the tank being alive and holding hate is the best utility a DPS can ask for because then they are not getting clapped into next week. I will wear whatever I need to in order to survive the encounter. it is not the tanks responsibility to make the DPS feel better about hitting parse numbers in live content. When did it become a tanks responsibility to stay alive AND provide the increase in DPS through abilities and skills that allow DPS to be successful in their roll? That should be on DPS players should it not?

That being said I am more than happy to wear "support" sets but hey better have an upside for me as the tank. Drakes Rush, Arkasis, the gear from the new dungeons, Lord Warden, etc, these are support sets the directly improve life for the tank that is running them and are sets that I have no problem using. Many people will say that DPS will improve the life of a tank by making the fight shorter, no it will not... I am almost always the last man standing. Long fights are not a problem for me in anyway, they are a problem for DPS that does not like to move out of stupid and who only know how to be parser monkeys. This is not all DPS but it is a fair number of them. Just like not all tanks are good tanks. When people start demanding that I run Powerful Assault or sets that provide them with penetration then I tend to stop listening to what those people are saying, and yes I do run trials and yes I have cleared them and have been very successful doing it. If DPS is not going to build for pen that is on them, not you.

You should use the gear that increases the enjoyment that you get out of the game because this is not a job it should be something that you do for enjoyment.

Meh, I think some people just dont like the term "selfish" and seem to take that term as a personal slight when its suggested they are wearing "selfish" gear sets, just not sure there is a better word for it in terms of tank gear. Tank Gear is generally either aimed at your personal survival (selfish is the term used) or its aimed at doing something for your group, damage, sustain, etc (support is the term used).

Of course, the number one rule of a tank is don't die. Nobody will ever disagree with that. And in pug dungeons, that's probably where it ends for the most part. I have never been in group finder dungeon where the tanks gear was even discussed unless: 1. They were repeatedly on the floor. Or 2. They proactively asked the DPS about their setups so they could swap to specific support gear. Rare, but it does happen. Never seen a tank get yelled at by pugs for not wearing powerful assault or some other support set.

That said, in harder content, why would you not want to buff the group, especially in terms of penetration or damage. The way the game is constructed, the tank has a lot of options specifically to help get their group to the pen cap. Sure a DPS can do it on their own, but the group damage is going to be significantly less than if a tank helps them get there. As a DPS, I am generally trading weapon/spell damage, max stats, or crit chance if I want more personal penetration. A tank is potentially trading personal health or armor stats for everyone's penetration. Mathematically, its smarter. Meta usually follows the numbers.

If you dont need the defensive stats to handle the fight, more group pen is objectively the correct answer. If you do need the sets to survive, well, nobody is likely care unless you are in an pre made/organized group. In that case, you may not be performing the role to the groups expectations, and premade groups can set what ever expectations they want.

Every game is of course different, but in ESO, the best tanks in the best groups do a lot for the group damage because they dont need "selfish" sets to survive, and overwhelming DPS is usually the best strat on the vast majority of fights. Organized groups should absolutely coordinate their setups, and for better or worse, a lot of that falls to the support rules, tank and healer. But its not totally a one way street. DPS stack into things like crit because it works better with support. A good DPS can and does adapt their own sets depending on what support they have. In PUG groups, well, its certainly a little more "every man for themselves". I often run with a bit more pen, and I dont complain if my tank is not wearing the latest greatest support sets, as long as they are alive and have taunt.

All that said, if you are building a Tank specifically designed for pugs, I believe the best group experience is going to be: Go Selfish enough that you arent worried about your own survival, and once that is accomplished, provide as much group support (penetration being the most important) as reasonably possible. Everyone is going to have a different line they need to draw based on their ability as a tank, but that philosophy will generally make for the smoothest and fastest runs.

fred4

pipestein wrote: »

If DPS is not going to build for pen that is on them, not you.

For what it's worth, I agree with @Oreyn_Bearclaw. There are different schools of thought. You probably best be aware of yours and of how far you can push the envelope with your build philosophy and how far others can push with theirs. Obtaining that information and sorting out the BS from the true advantages is a bit of a problem, though.

As an example, one of my DDs - also a Brawler build, but one I queue with as a DD - has 6.4K self-buffed weapon damage. It's a DK, so I bring Minor Brutality to the table by myself. The group I was with were all around CP300 in vet IC Prison. In one of the fights they all died, but even in death they buffed my weapon damage to 8K and I finished the fight. They must have been running some meta buff sets. The weapon damage scaling in this game does some weird and wonderful things. Do such buffs mean that groups are ultimately better off with a buff tank? Obviously the meta thinks so. Personally I'm not sure. People fake tank, but probably few try to run a tanky DD in the hardest dungeons, like me.

I actually see the lack of pen as a major drawback of the builds I listed, because it's reasonable to assume that most tanks taunt with Pierce Armor and, thus, provide both the Major and Minor Pen buffs on bosses. I ran Razor Caltrops for a while, but noticed some DDs also running that skill. Furthermore, in chaotic fights or when people die and you're soloing stuff, Dark Deal is a much better skill than meditation for sustain. That made me switch to the Thief mundus, cementing Dark Deal to help with sustain as standard.

Amerises

AvalonRanger wrote: »

My main character is PVE tank, and I don't care other group member except taunting.
I equip only one sharing damage shield always, but mostly concentrate self defending.
Because, if tank died, every people will be dead mostly.(and reviving role is tank mostly)

Reviving is, and should, fall to dd first and second, and healer third. Most vet mechanics won't even let a tank revive. Especially when someone goes down, a tank should be gathering adds with taunt and chain to let the group revive (probably just to be doing that anyways, because it's likely what caused the death)

WrathOfInnos

Lol at some of the replies here. The sentiment "I'm just here to taunt and stay alive, not to support the group as a whole" is exactly why some builds are labeled "selfish". Survival is important up to a point, but sets that make your job easier and 3 to 11 other players' jobs harder are appropriately named. Let me guess, these tanks are also choosing the morph Ransack

Edit: Btw, the exact same standards apply to damage builds. If someone queues for DD role and shows up with 40k health and deals 2k DPS that is a selfish build. They are wasting everyone's time, making content take twice as long as it should, and focusing far more on survival than necessary. The only difference is that DD's are expected to contribute to group damage directly, while tanks contribute with positioning, aggro and buffs/debuffs.

El_Borracho

I like @fred4 approach. I love running dungeons with tanks like that. Makes it fun and fast.

But if someone wants to run your approach, they better know what they are doing. I've encountered more people who think they can bring a solo/PVP build into a vet DLC dungeon and succeed. Its bad when they are a DD, its worse when they are the tank, its misery when they are a werewolf build on top of it all. Then they blame the healer for the tank dying or the DDs for not putting out enough damage. Why aren't the DDs doing enough damage? Because the tank keeps pulling the boss out of AOEs and ultis because they are constantly running around kiting.

Taunts and resistances only go so far when you don't know mechanics. Fighting bosses in a vet DLC dungeon isn't the same as 1vX.

Elendir2am

pipestein wrote: »

I should explain where I am coming form because a lot of people will disagree with what I am saying in this post. I am a tank. it is the role I play and have always played in every MMO I have ever played and I know my role very well.

The whole idea of selfish vs. support sets on a tank for groups seems more than a little asinine to me. In hard veteran content the tank being alive and holding hate is the best utility a DPS can ask for because then they are not getting clapped into next week. I will wear whatever I need to in order to survive the encounter. it is not the tanks responsibility to make the DPS feel better about hitting parse numbers in live content. When did it become a tanks responsibility to stay alive AND provide the increase in DPS through abilities and skills that allow DPS to be successful in their roll? That should be on DPS players should it not?.

Staying alive is 15% of tank responsibilities in ESO. I don't believe, that any raid leader would allow you to be so passive in veteran trial. I guess, that you run normal trials at max, or god be merciful with people who got you at PUG veteran trials.

End game of ESO PvE (veteran trials HM) is about cooperation. Tanks buffs group, everybody run Mystic orb, resurrecting others, playing mechanics. If somebody go there with "My task is this so don't bother me with anything else" then group is screwed".

drsalvation

I always hated the "selfish" label lol.
You're doing PUG, be as self-sustained and self-reliant as you can. When you're doing PUGs, you have to know what's up, and you have to expect that your team doesn't know. If their DPS is low, no matter what sets you do, you won't fix their issues, and you'll just end up dead a lot faster. If their DPS is high, at best you'll finish a few minutes later.

But if you're doing a run with people who actually communicate and you know, THEN you can be supportive, because then you'd know who you can rely and count on to keep you alive while you make them stronger, considering veteran trials will one-shot you anyway, so there's no actual point in optimizing a tank build, if you can increase their DPS, then the torment will be over sooner.

drsalvation

As for gear sets...
My first combo:
Tormentor + flex spot + vateshran sword and shield.
Having tormentor means you can do AoE taunts if you use exploding javelin (templar) or stampede (2h).
If you use vateshran sword and shield and equip power slam, you will pull all nearby enemies to your location, then you can either do exploding or stampede and all enemies nearby will be taunted. Then you just gotta stay in the same spot and let AoE kill all the mobs. You can also use rushing agony for the same effect from vateshran sword and shield, AND that set doesn't CC enemies when you pull them to yourself, so if you have time stop from psijic order, you can set it up, then pull enemies into the area, and then freeze them for 3 seconds, and then AoE taunt them all.

My second combo:
Resilient Yokeda + Harbinger + Malubeth.
I used to use this in PvP 1v1, you block and you have a deal. If there were NPCs nearby, Resilient Yokeda would work better (since each enemy hit would heal you for more).
It was a fun way of blocking to deal damage, and malubeth would heal you if you took damage.
It was the combination I used to solo Aetherium Archive (up until the storm attronach boss).

It also depends on what you want to focus on.
My third fav combo but very niche and I never went back to it
Beekeeper + Alessian order + Gaze of Sithis (and there's a CP perk where your health recovery would increase based on your ultimate points).
This would grant me up to 6k health recovery.
Combined with cutting edge (CP), I'd basically just stand there while enemies would hurt themselves while hurting me.
You couldn't mitigate damage while blocking, but gaze of sithis provides a huge health, armor and health recovery boost.

FeedbackOnly

My job is to live and keep taunt. Anything else I do is extra and my choice. My belief is a tank should be tanky.

Tanks aren't support, but the leader.

FeedbackOnly

pipestein wrote: »

I should explain where I am coming form because a lot of people will disagree with what I am saying in this post. I am a tank. it is the role I play and have always played in every MMO I have ever played and I know my role very well.

The whole idea of selfish vs. support sets on a tank for groups seems more than a little asinine to me. In hard veteran content the tank being alive and holding hate is the best utility a DPS can ask for because then they are not getting clapped into next week. I will wear whatever I need to in order to survive the encounter. it is not the tanks responsibility to make the DPS feel better about hitting parse numbers in live content. When did it become a tanks responsibility to stay alive AND provide the increase in DPS through abilities and skills that allow DPS to be successful in their roll? That should be on DPS players should it not?

That being said I am more than happy to wear "support" sets but hey better have an upside for me as the tank. Drakes Rush, Arkasis, the gear from the new dungeons, Lord Warden, etc, these are support sets the directly improve life for the tank that is running them and are sets that I have no problem using. Many people will say that DPS will improve the life of a tank by making the fight shorter, no it will not... I am almost always the last man standing. Long fights are not a problem for me in anyway, they are a problem for DPS that does not like to move out of stupid and who only know how to be parser monkeys. This is not all DPS but it is a fair number of them. Just like not all tanks are good tanks. When people start demanding that I run Powerful Assault or sets that provide them with penetration then I tend to stop listening to what those people are saying, and yes I do run trials and yes I have cleared them and have been very successful doing it. If DPS is not going to build for pen that is on them, not you.

You should use the gear that increases the enjoyment that you get out of the game because this is not a job it should be something that you do for enjoyment.

In my strong opinion it is insane that people call tanks who don't Carter to DPS selfish. Yet we will see post calling themselves slaves if they have to be the Zen dk of the group

fred4

I present two more theory-crafted build variations:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=421256
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=433679

I'm not happy with Sithis anymore. I prefer the ability to block. Thus I plan to play the first build variation from now on. Instead of Lord Warden, I thought why not switch to Markyn. It's even more damage with crit back up to 45% as well.

The second build I could use some advice on. I don't want to change my build totally for high-end vet DLC dungeons. I love Tormentor and it provides resistances that carry from the back bar. In terms of habits, it will be the easiest to switch out Brawler and it's weapon for Pierce Armor and the corresponding Master weapon. My question really is about the group utility. I neither have Alkosh nor the proposed Roaring Opportunist yet. The idea would be to run some fairly unique buff(s) that are unlikely to be covered by someone else. It occurred to me that I have sustain pretty much covered, blocking only when needed, and would be free to spec into spell damage for 10 seconds of Major Slayer at a time. Does this sound like an idea? What are the group support sets a tank might wear?

Lenny_linguine

Draxund wrote: »

Hi tanks!

I'm currently researching a tank build exclusively for dungeon PUGs. The farthest I'll ever take this build is vet, maybe occasional hard modes. But it will be PUGs 99% of the time. That said, I'm trying to solve the problem of balancing "selfish" sets versus those that buff or support the group. All the best sites/forums discuss this balance, but I wonder how it truly plays out in a PUG environment.

Here's what I'm certain of: I'm choosing Leeching Plate as one set. I know high-quality tanks don't like it and view it as training wheels, but I'll never take this build further than PUG dungeons. Hence, I'd like to keep the training wheels :-)

Here's what I need help with: Trying to decide on the other two sets. In an effort to support groups, I thought to add Powerful Assault and Tremorscale (giving group some damage and debuffing for stam folks). I also considered Powerful Assault and the Spaulder of Ruin mythic--mostly aimed at more damage for the group.

However, several sites/forums said that PUG dungeons are actually a proper place to be selfish, because I can't rely on getting good DPS or heals. This resonates with me in my experience PUGing as a healer and DPS. So I found another setup that seemed popular a couple years ago: Leeching Plate and Bahraha's Curse. This synergy looks fun, with higher survivability, but clearly it's selfish. Also, I'm stuck on what monster set or mythic to run with those in order to give something to my group.

So what's your philosophy on tanking PUGs and balancing gear that is "selfish" vs supporting the group?

My opinion if you want extra survivability in a PUG situation use a monster Helm and the masters sword and board not a five item set like leeching. Engine guardian is the go to monster set in my opinion. The sustain and survivability it provides in my opinion outshine leeching, makes resource management a breeze and if you are a capable tank as long as your stam and mag are being managed properly then outside of DLC hardmodes you'll be fine to survive even with a sub par group having just EG as your selfish option. After that Id recommend yolnakrin. The reason being it will give u minor agies, which is a sizable damage mitigation and easy access to minor courage buffing your group, After that I'd pair this with another set that helps you and your group. If you are a DK, drakes rush is great here. helps your sustain through ults and helps the group pump out more ults, for more damage. if you are not a DK or if you are, sax champion is also great because you can opt for a selfish ulti but still give the group a nice dps buff when you use it. Worm cult also falls in this group it will increase your sustain and therefore survivability but also help the groups sustain. Id be happy to say the minor agies from yol, combined with engine gardian and masters sword and board front bar is gonna out perform leeching all day, and it lets you have two five item bonuses that will benefit your group as well. Leeching in my opinion is nice, but it only helps your group in that you are harder to kill, and in fairness now that it does not proc under multiple enemies at once its not really better than some other options and you wont learn that unless you take it off. Tremor scale isn't needed if you run an infused crusher ice staff on the back bar and use puncture or at least the bonus from it will not be better than yolo/drakes/sax.

I think the philosophy with pug tanking should be how can I help my group, by helping myself at the same time.

Hope this helps, end of the day can play how you want, good on you for sticking out the pug tanking anyway !

fred4

Lenny_linguine wrote: »

Draxund wrote: »

Hi tanks!

I'm currently researching a tank build exclusively for dungeon PUGs. The farthest I'll ever take this build is vet, maybe occasional hard modes. But it will be PUGs 99% of the time. That said, I'm trying to solve the problem of balancing "selfish" sets versus those that buff or support the group. All the best sites/forums discuss this balance, but I wonder how it truly plays out in a PUG environment.

Here's what I'm certain of: I'm choosing Leeching Plate as one set. I know high-quality tanks don't like it and view it as training wheels, but I'll never take this build further than PUG dungeons. Hence, I'd like to keep the training wheels :-)

Here's what I need help with: Trying to decide on the other two sets. In an effort to support groups, I thought to add Powerful Assault and Tremorscale (giving group some damage and debuffing for stam folks). I also considered Powerful Assault and the Spaulder of Ruin mythic--mostly aimed at more damage for the group.

However, several sites/forums said that PUG dungeons are actually a proper place to be selfish, because I can't rely on getting good DPS or heals. This resonates with me in my experience PUGing as a healer and DPS. So I found another setup that seemed popular a couple years ago: Leeching Plate and Bahraha's Curse. This synergy looks fun, with higher survivability, but clearly it's selfish. Also, I'm stuck on what monster set or mythic to run with those in order to give something to my group.

So what's your philosophy on tanking PUGs and balancing gear that is "selfish" vs supporting the group?

My opinion if you want extra survivability in a PUG situation use a monster Helm and the masters sword and board not a five item set like leeching. Engine guardian is the go to monster set in my opinion. The sustain and survivability it provides in my opinion outshine leeching, makes resource management a breeze and if you are a capable tank as long as your stam and mag are being managed properly then outside of DLC hardmodes you'll be fine to survive even with a sub par group having just EG as your selfish option. After that Id recommend yolnakrin. The reason being it will give u minor agies, which is a sizable damage mitigation and easy access to minor courage buffing your group, After that I'd pair this with another set that helps you and your group. If you are a DK, drakes rush is great here. helps your sustain through ults and helps the group pump out more ults, for more damage. if you are not a DK or if you are, sax champion is also great because you can opt for a selfish ulti but still give the group a nice dps buff when you use it. Worm cult also falls in this group it will increase your sustain and therefore survivability but also help the groups sustain. Id be happy to say the minor agies from yol, combined with engine gardian and masters sword and board front bar is gonna out perform leeching all day, and it lets you have two five item bonuses that will benefit your group as well. Leeching in my opinion is nice, but it only helps your group in that you are harder to kill, and in fairness now that it does not proc under multiple enemies at once its not really better than some other options and you wont learn that unless you take it off. Tremor scale isn't needed if you run an infused crusher ice staff on the back bar and use puncture or at least the bonus from it will not be better than yolo/drakes/sax.

I think the philosophy with pug tanking should be how can I help my group, by helping myself at the same time.

Hope this helps, end of the day can play how you want, good on you for sticking out the pug tanking anyway !

After reading this, I modified the 1H+S version of my build to use Yolnahkriin and Engine Guardian. Tested it yesterday. Very happy. Now, therefore, running these two builds via just gear change:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=421256
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=433679

I considered merging this into one build, but didn't like the resulting stats and skill layout.

It would seem like Master's 1H+S and Tormentor would stack and you have too much resistance in the 1H+S build, but as I played it I found that you tend to use one or the other buff in practice, not both.

Iron_Blurr

My thoughts are that you need different setups for different situations.
If group dps is good wear damage buffing support sets to use that strength to your advantage.

If group dps is bad wear sets that allow you to contribute to group dps while still maintaining control of enemies and keeping them taunted.

If you get fake/weak healer wear survival sets if you need to and tell the healer to play as a dps. Tank+3 dps is a good strategy if you all can stay alive without a healer. No matter what support set combination you wear nothing will buff your group dps more than adding another whole dps to your group. In these situations it might be best to even go out of your way to heal your group and help them sustain by throwing orbs their way for the synergy. On paper it does not look like a damage buff to your group but in practice dps not running out of juice or having to spam shields to survive means more dps output for your group.

Your job as a tank is to enable your group. If your whole team is dead except for you and you are not able to resurrect them, you might as well have died along with them because you will not clear the content.

The motto of a good tank is be prepared for anything and look for opportunities to enable your group. Keep this in mind and any of the sets listed in this thread can be useful as long as you use them in the right situation.

JanTanhide

Wear what sets you want to wear. It's your character, your Tank, your enjoyment of the game. There are many sets to try and you can set various gear set bundles for different dungeons so you can change sets instantly based on the dungeon.

The people pushing a Tank to be a support entity aren't running your Tank. Tank's need to stay alive at all costs. In a PUG the Healer you get is usually not a Healer per se or just a full blown DPS.

You can add Thurvokin to your build. It was nerfed in the past but still a fun set to run and it helps the group as well as the Tank stay alive.

If you intend to run specific gear sets you may want to consider adjusting your CP for those "selfish" sets. Have a look at the CP tree. You can buff gear sets with certain CP selections.

I have a Tank that can solo the 7 fire Attros in Vet A.A. and I never have to touch the keyboard. Selfish? LOL. Who cares. It's my Tank.

WrathOfInnos

JanTanhide wrote: »

I have a Tank that can solo the 7 fire Attros in Vet A.A. and I never have to touch the keyboard. Selfish? LOL. Who cares. It's my Tank.

Sounds like an amusing novelty, but I'm sure you realize that kind of build isn't made for group content. For one thing, if you are not touching the keyboard then everything is untaunted

I'd actually recommend that players of all 3 roles go ahead and push some buttons, or the group will certainly think you are fake or trolling, lol

WordsOfPower

Over the last few years I've gone from wearing full group support towards 'vs tanking'.

There's no sense in wearing Yolna if DPS absolutely suck.

So Chudan, Leeching and Bahraha, 5 light, full attribute points into magicka, and CP and skills set up for big AOE damage is the way to go. You can clear nearly all content with a build like this, and if you're mainly looking to PUG it's far better to do this than give someone Yolna buff that is wasted.

fred4

nvm

Galiferno

I don't ever feel the need for a selfish set and I like to pug random vets, not normals like most people do. I want my dps to kill stuff faster and can use my skills and sustain them well enough to use support sets instead of anything actually tanky and stay alive.

karekiz

Largely depends on what I am doing and who I am with. Also what I am tanking.

If I am doing VDC HM with random 350 healer in que? Yes, hell even a que with random DPS + Healer sometimes if there isn't two DPS online.


In that case I would rather go selfish - Engine + Bani + Drakes for First boss + Final Boss - 2nd boss is pure raw DPS boost as it doesn't have any stress on it. usually though that can be swapped. Bani just to give me Major Vigour and major maim the boss. Engine because its quite likely the healer is not in symphony - they are not using orbs - and maybe....juuuuuust maybe they toss one shard in the encounter.

DPS usually bring self heals at that point too. Which in a way is selfish too. If you have a healer there really isn't reason to slot a self heal, but we all know random healers are in fact random.

Is it selfish? Sure I suppose, but its nice to not worry too much when you have the Spider + Boss + healer spamming raiding regen as his only skill while cleaving the DPS with lanes.

Otherwise I typically run TT + Nazz + Drakes in dungeon. If healer is using Horn than that even frees up ability to use barrier.

ManM

I just want to throw this out there, because I pug tank all the time with this setup and it's amazing:
Four piece leeching plate worn on body, with sword/board or ice staff to complete the set on one bar.
Dark convergence, two pieces of jewelry and one body piece, with a weapon to complete the set on the other bar.
Mythic ring/amulet of your choice. I have a fondness for wild hunt.
Monster set of your choice. Iceheart is nice. Doesn't really matter much in the end.

On your bar with dark convergence, run razer caltrops, silver leash, and some AOE things.
On your bar with leeching, use all of your heavy defense skills, single target debuffs, and your taunt.

On a trash pack, lead with caltrops. AOE. A couple seconds later, the trash pack is flattened. Bar swap to leeching if you need healing. The pack is all clumped up anyway at that point.
When at a boss, bar swap into leeching. Be the tank that taunts, debuffs, and stays alive.

This is more than enough to blast through any dungeon in the game, save for some super sweaty trifectas.

pelle412

I use mostly the same sets whether I pug tank or not. Yolnakhriin + Turning Tide + Nazray works well for me in any dungeon content. I hear what people say about selfish sets and they do help when you're a beginner. Once you are an experienced tank, such sets don't really help. If you die then it's not because of the gear sets.

EDIT: When I say "experienced tank" I don't mean how many months or years you've tanked. I mean you understand the limits of your class very well and you are comfortable with all your abilities.

Furcas00

I've done both really. I went full on selfish early on, later moved to Drake's Rush + worm. I've settled on just doing as much control as possible instead of trying to push dps in other ways, and I've found if I give pug dps more opportunities to push X they do so pretty well surprisingly. I was running Aim's synergy tracker to see what was being hit, and my synergies were being used frequently. Control for me at the moment means tormentor + dark convergence for the aoe taunt/pull. I focus heavily on just trying to facilitate the group's damage as opposed to dealing it.

I pug a *lot* as I've been trying to work skill points on 6 tanks (one of each class, also heal on sorc/warden/necro). I have 3 more to finish off dungeons on. If I had more gear available to me I'd add in Puncturing Remedy too. I've really got to start doing arenas. I am just using Spaulder of Ruin as my primary means of supporting the group outside of skills at the moment.

ccfeeling

I run selfish sets bc I pug a lot , I don't really need healing tbh even HM , healer is required for other 2 dps ,
and I don't expect all healers in game know what they have to do correctly , many new joiners you know .

Tank basically cannot die , self healing , resource management , responsible to do rev job when everyone die , thanks Spell Wall .

My build cannot get high score run

MEBengalsFan2001

I find using gear sets that provides group utility and buffs out weigh the full selfish tanking sets such as leeching. If you can run a set that is group utility that also provides you as a tank a way to survive longer it is IMO a better set than a full self sustaining set.

For monster set I run Lord Warden; this is great for myself as a tank but also great for any melee DPS that could use a bit more resistance.

I also run Claw of Yolnahkriin; it is simply a great set to use to ensure a smoother run due to higher damage output by the DPS and higher heals for the healer. It also is a bit selfish as it provides a 5% reduction in damage in dungeons/trials.

The last set I use is Brands of Imperium. This set has saved many players from dying and giving the healer just enough time to get a heal off or give the player enough time to get health back from blood alter life steal.

I must say though that there is many ways to build a tank and how you do it doesn't really matter as long as content is being completed.