Tanks: what are your thoughts on balancing selfish vs support gear in PUG dungeons?

Draxund

Hi tanks!

I'm currently researching a tank build exclusively for dungeon PUGs. The farthest I'll ever take this build is vet, maybe occasional hard modes. But it will be PUGs 99% of the time. That said, I'm trying to solve the problem of balancing "selfish" sets versus those that buff or support the group. All the best sites/forums discuss this balance, but I wonder how it truly plays out in a PUG environment.

Here's what I'm certain of: I'm choosing Leeching Plate as one set. I know high-quality tanks don't like it and view it as training wheels, but I'll never take this build further than PUG dungeons. Hence, I'd like to keep the training wheels :-)

Here's what I need help with: Trying to decide on the other two sets. In an effort to support groups, I thought to add Powerful Assault and Tremorscale (giving group some damage and debuffing for stam folks). I also considered Powerful Assault and the Spaulder of Ruin mythic--mostly aimed at more damage for the group.

However, several sites/forums said that PUG dungeons are actually a proper place to be selfish, because I can't rely on getting good DPS or heals. This resonates with me in my experience PUGing as a healer and DPS. So I found another setup that seemed popular a couple years ago: Leeching Plate and Bahraha's Curse. This synergy looks fun, with higher survivability, but clearly it's selfish. Also, I'm stuck on what monster set or mythic to run with those in order to give something to my group.

So what's your philosophy on tanking PUGs and balancing gear that is "selfish" vs supporting the group?

Drdeath20

A dead tank is a useless tank. Do what you need to do to stay alive. Support sets really only help good groups anyways.

Castian

My main is a tank. I've never cared for the phrasing of selfish. As tank we have two core purposes, stay alive and keep the mobs focused on us.

Everyone has a different threshold for the ability to perform so the answer to your question is draw the line on the gear at where you are able to consistently avoid dying. If wearing support gear is getting you killed, you are failing as the tank anyway because then the DPS gets off track as they are either dying or fleeing for their lives waiting on you to get back on your feet.

And essentially I've almost only ever PUG'd dungeons and trials. Scheduling with a guild just hard to line up with my work life. I run Yolnakrin, Leki's Focus, Lord Warden, and back bar Void Bash to have a quality balance of defense and group support on my Nord Vampire.

Vevvev

Try and stay alive in the beginning, but as you get more experienced slowly back off the selfish sets. If you can't 100% back off the selfish sets look into sets that can kind of leap off you to other people.

Like for example I replaced Whitestrake with the Imperium set. It still accomplishes the same thing, shielding me from damage, but it also can shield allies near me when the set procs. This way I can be more durable but justify it by helping my allies near me stay alive. Might even make the poor healer's job easier if a low HP DPS gets caught up in it.

Amottica

It is a pug dungeon which means the quality of play from the other three players is very much in question. Wear what you want.

Treeshka

It entirely depends on what sort of dungeons you want to do, since some dungeons nowadays some heals and mandatory mechanic knowledge. If i were you i would choose on support set and one selfish set just to be safe and also just to buff the group a little. Since with random people you might get a bad composition and might need more survivability.

WrathOfInnos

Sets the buff and support the group often make content easier for you as well. I highly recommend getting a set of Crimson Oath and taunting with Pierce Armor, these debuffs will massively increase group damage, which means enemies die faster and hit you less.

Some tanks like sets like Plague Doctor to build massive health pools, but honestly Ebon is almost as good for the tank, and helps everyone else in the group at the same time.

AcadianPaladin

I have a DK main tank who runs Warrior Poet, Torugs and Mighty Chudan. I consider Torug's support (with infused crushing weaponry) and I like to focus on trying to work the battlefield, not staying alive. Full time passive +40k hp and maxed resists without lifting a finger help alot. With this gear, all my skills are about debuffing and controlling foes. I'm not so skilled that I can or want to risk running out of red, blue or green.

newtinmpls

1-Taunt (this also means debuff the target - if not using S&B taunt, find another way to do it)

2-Stay alive (and this means have some combination of health, shields, blocking skills and armor so that you are NOT needing to run all over the place - don't stand in stupid, but a tank should be able to handle some red without instantly dying)

3-control the area (keep the boss in one place, pull in the adds, have at least one lockdown) Do NOT drag the boss all over because you can't handle what you taunted - that is a waste of AoE damage from your DPS. Lockdowns are also a waste of DPS damage - you should be doing them.

After all that, yes add buffs and debuffs and such.

Elendir2am

Selfish sets serves as safety in cause you do some mistake. They don´t have any other positive, then giving you time to learn.
The more you mastered mechanics, the less you need selfish sets.

They are used more for PUGs, because skilful healer can help tank a lot through some difficulties. However, T+3DD runs show, that it isn´t necessary either.

Take your time and use what you are comfortable with for now. When you will feel, that you are skilled enough. Change one selfish set for support set and try it. You can return any time back.

Note under line:
You need "powerful assault" on back bar only. You can use it with "puncturing remedy" on front bar and have good survivability and do supporting at same time.

Madarc

In the long run, it is better to carry a selfish set in pug dungeons.
However, I always have a support set with me. If I notice that there are newcomers, and my time allows it, I change to bring the group through with less frustration.

This does not always help. Sometimes it's just better to keep working the boss stubbornly and revive in between if possible. Of course this only works with selfish sets.
It takes longer, but is often more predictable and finally successful.

Snamyap

I rarely tank groups, mostly solo dungeons for which I use the Leeching/Bahraha's combo. If you want personal survivability and group support maybe try the other plate set from Imperial City: Brands of Imperium (group damage shield). Might also cover a bit for a sup par pick up healer.

duagloth

Most of the time PUGs are not even aware when you run a buff set. I carry about 5 different sets with me just in case though.

dmnqwk

Damage kills bosses.

What I mean by this is not as straightforward as 'deal tons of damage yourself' but 'provide the group the tools necessary to kill the boss as quick as possible'.

1. Penetration. If you're running 7k penetration, which is where you want to be, then the lack of a tank (because it's a dps who isn't good at maths) is costing the group more than they'll bring to the mix.
2. Synergies/Support. As a tank if you hit your ultimate for damage and it does 100k, nice! But if you hit the horn for the dps, suddenly you're providing the group 150k instead. (numbers hypothetical) In a group where the 2 dps only do 25k between them, you might be better off using ice comet, but if they're 25k each, 40k each, then aggressive horn becomes a better option.
3. Positioning. The more the DD have to move, the lower their damage output is. If you can stand in fire an extra 10 seconds and prevent the boss moving, you'll kill them quicker.

The adds will die quicker if you group them up because a ST ability is 10k for DD but an AoE is 7k, meaning just two mobs grouped up is better... therefore stacking 5-6 mobs is win!

Warden - I run leeching plate and frozen watcher, plus swarm mother monster set. This means I just permablock, taunt the ranged ones to be swarm mothered in. Both my 5 sets are selfish, because my monster set is what matters. I bring about 12.5k single target and about 10k per target aoe (overland bosses, for example, see me hitting 30k dps if there are 3 present)

Dragonknight - I use leeching plate, again, and Diamond Victory with Tremorscale monster set. Again I group everything up with chains and, again, my 5 sets are selfish because ultimate I am rounding things up. I do about 17.5k single target but only about 6k aoe.

Your sets dont really matter in dungeons in terms of selfish vs supportive, what matters is your skill selections and your mentality. Bringing 11k penetration, rounding up the mobs and staying stationary is what helps the DD thrive far more than a 5 set buff to give them 300 power.

Also, for note: I use leeching plate a lot because of Balance(equilibrium). Allowing me to constantly lifetap for magicka to use my skills lets me push out the damage and keep moving quickly without worry. Nothing worse than spending 15k magicka on one pull, then having nothing to chain 3 mobs on the next because you didn't lifetap!

MudcrabAttack

I’ll go selfish when learning a vet DLC boss the first time or two since I’ll have a higher tendency to miss a mechanic and die. Way better for everyone else if you’re able to keep going.

For everything else I keep two tank builds slotted, one for debuffing when a group is moving fast, and one for dps for all those other pugs

MEBengalsFan2001

Draxund wrote: »

Hi tanks!

I'm currently researching a tank build exclusively for dungeon PUGs. The farthest I'll ever take this build is vet, maybe occasional hard modes. But it will be PUGs 99% of the time. That said, I'm trying to solve the problem of balancing "selfish" sets versus those that buff or support the group. All the best sites/forums discuss this balance, but I wonder how it truly plays out in a PUG environment.

Here's what I'm certain of: I'm choosing Leeching Plate as one set. I know high-quality tanks don't like it and view it as training wheels, but I'll never take this build further than PUG dungeons. Hence, I'd like to keep the training wheels :-)

Here's what I need help with: Trying to decide on the other two sets. In an effort to support groups, I thought to add Powerful Assault and Tremorscale (giving group some damage and debuffing for stam folks). I also considered Powerful Assault and the Spaulder of Ruin mythic--mostly aimed at more damage for the group.

However, several sites/forums said that PUG dungeons are actually a proper place to be selfish, because I can't rely on getting good DPS or heals. This resonates with me in my experience PUGing as a healer and DPS. So I found another setup that seemed popular a couple years ago: Leeching Plate and Bahraha's Curse. This synergy looks fun, with higher survivability, but clearly it's selfish. Also, I'm stuck on what monster set or mythic to run with those in order to give something to my group.

So what's your philosophy on tanking PUGs and balancing gear that is "selfish" vs supporting the group?

I run a buff set and a group shield set. The later is for myself and my group. A shield can be the difference between a dead healer or dps or even myself. It provides that nice small shield to help my character last a bit longer.

Bitter_Apple21

@Draxund

From your words, not sure if you have tanked before and this is JUST for pugs, or this is your first tank.

If the first tank, welcome to the club.

I think I was where you are about a 6-8 wks ago. I started selfish. But to the point of others on this thread, I did that cause I accepted the advice given me over my time of learning on the tank's first rule, to be able to do the second.

1) don't die.
2) taunt

I loaded up Ebon/Warrior Poet/Chudan. No food, 42k+ health, 35k+ armor. But that is simply what I had picked up and collected from other toons in the past.

But like your focus, I was running Pugs only. After awhile, for me in PUGS, I felt it was not the gear, it was how I used the skills of tanking. The gear simply let me "survive" to stand in the middle of everything and do the stuff the group needed me to do.

The bad part is that sense of "invincibility" that I got from the Base dungeons (normal and vet) carried forward to the DLC and vDLC stuff. Boy, was I quickly corrected the first time I tried to stand toe to toe with one of the DLC mini bosses. It then dawned me for DLC levels, it was not the gear but the mechs.

I guess the lesson for me was that, for PUGs, it was not so much the gear - since I did not get any sense of coordination or communication of things - it was more on how I executed the "tanking" and what skills I slotted.

The one gear change I did do was to move from Ebon to Crimson, to get that extra armor debuff, so regardless of whatever the DPS has as pen, the debuff I am offering almost brings the bosses to zero.

Good luck and enjoy.

jaws343

I'll be honest, I go full selfish for PUG dungeons. It's such a coin flip on whether the group you get is competent enough to utilize any buffs you could give effectively. For trials, group buffs all the way.

jecks33

99% i do dungeons with pugs. My build depends by the group i find.

If i find people that know what to do and with good dmg I go with full support build (nazaray, encrasis, yolna, powerful assault, turning tide, etc..)

If people die fast, the healer have a bow and a pvp title or the damage is 10k total i go full selfish for me and the group (lord warden, leeching plate, imperium)

It's just a click to jump from build 1 to build 2

El_Borracho

It depends. If the group is squishy, a shield set like Mighty Glacier. But as its a pug, my main priority is getting it over with as fast as possible. So I usually run Leeching with a damage support set like Yolna. And I always have the Igneous Weapons available on my DK just in case.

WordsOfPower

For 95% of content, you don't even need to build for survivability. The Symphony of Blades heavy attack does over 150k damage. You're not gonna block that. So just give yourself 25k stamina and 35k health and the rest put into magicka. Wear 5 light and run a lot of AOE damage abilities and infused damage glyphs and you can tank everything you need to while still doing decent damage. CPs all into damage cuz folk were doing this content long before there even were any CP.

The one thing PUGs lack is damage.

Speaking as tank main

p00tx

Draxund wrote: »

Hi tanks!

I'm currently researching a tank build exclusively for dungeon PUGs. The farthest I'll ever take this build is vet, maybe occasional hard modes. But it will be PUGs 99% of the time. That said, I'm trying to solve the problem of balancing "selfish" sets versus those that buff or support the group. All the best sites/forums discuss this balance, but I wonder how it truly plays out in a PUG environment.

Here's what I'm certain of: I'm choosing Leeching Plate as one set. I know high-quality tanks don't like it and view it as training wheels, but I'll never take this build further than PUG dungeons. Hence, I'd like to keep the training wheels :-)

Here's what I need help with: Trying to decide on the other two sets. In an effort to support groups, I thought to add Powerful Assault and Tremorscale (giving group some damage and debuffing for stam folks). I also considered Powerful Assault and the Spaulder of Ruin mythic--mostly aimed at more damage for the group.

However, several sites/forums said that PUG dungeons are actually a proper place to be selfish, because I can't rely on getting good DPS or heals. This resonates with me in my experience PUGing as a healer and DPS. So I found another setup that seemed popular a couple years ago: Leeching Plate and Bahraha's Curse. This synergy looks fun, with higher survivability, but clearly it's selfish. Also, I'm stuck on what monster set or mythic to run with those in order to give something to my group.

So what's your philosophy on tanking PUGs and balancing gear that is "selfish" vs supporting the group?

I've experienced enough pugs in this game that I don't blame you even a little bit for choosing a selfish set. Spaulder is going to make you hate your life as a solo support and you'll be screaming for sustain. I wouldn't advise it. PA is a good second set, as are Olo or Crimson. You could even go with two full support body sets and go with a selfish monster set like Engine Guardian if you're comfortable. There are also great mythic items that can help support a tank like Bloodlord's Embrace or Death Dealer's Fete.

newtinmpls

Draxund wrote: »

Hi tanks!

I'm currently researching a tank build exclusively for dungeon PUGs. The farthest I'll ever take this build is vet, maybe occasional hard modes. But it will be PUGs 99% of the time. That said, I'm trying to solve the problem of balancing "selfish" sets versus those that buff or support the group. All the best sites/forums discuss this balance, but I wonder how it truly plays out in a PUG environment.

Here's what I'm certain of: I'm choosing Leeching Plate as one set. I know high-quality tanks don't like it and view it as training wheels, but I'll never take this build further than PUG dungeons. Hence, I'd like to keep the training wheels :-)

Here's what I need help with: Trying to decide on the other two sets.

Listed options in the rest of the post included:
Monster helms: Tremorscale
Antiquities: Spaulder of Ruin
Sets: Bahara's Curse

Part of my answer is that WHEN I tank, my goals are:
1-Taunt (includes debuff the target(s) as much as possible)
2-Stay alive - important caveat/descriptor - mostly IN ONE PLACE
3-Control the area - mostly means pulls and lockdowns
4-Support the group (more buffs/debuffs)

So equipment that speaks to one (or ideally more than one) is good. If the average player (not rich, not a PVP or trial godling) can get it, so much the better.

Not too many sets or equipment actually help with taunt, but that being said, here are some suggestions.

Taunt
Tremorscale monster set - when you taunt, you you cause a duneripper to burst from the ground beneath them after 1 second and damage enemies within 4 meters AND reduce their Physical Resistance by 2395 for 8 seconds (also it looks cool).

Stay Alive
Bloodspawn monster set - when you take damage, chance to generate ultimate and increase your physical/spell resistance. Tanks are supposed to take damage - so this will proc decently
MIghty Chudan monster set - major resolve at all times, which boosts your physical/spell resistance
Fortified Brass - craftable - Health and Armor, Armor, Armor. Very nice

Control the Area
Sellistrix Monster set - when you deal damage, stun to all enemies within 4 feet (not much, but nice, and being that you'll be throwing at least light and heavy attacks as you taunt, you'll be able to trigger it)
Swarm Mother monster set - When you Block an enemy that is between 8 and 22 meters from you [most annoying archers, really], you spin strands of spider silk to pull the enemy to you. This effect can occur once every 1 second; if you can get good at it (and it takes work) this is a freaky fun way to do pulls.

Support the Group
Lord Warden monster set - when you take damage, chance to generate an orb that increases physical/spell resistance to you AND nearby group members
Brands of Imperium DLC dungeon drop - When you take damage, you grant you and your group members within 8 meters a damage shield that absorbs 11260 damage for 6 seconds; however in a PUG group too often the DPS' will be running around like chickens with their heads cut off, so this probably isn't a good choice.
Ebon Armory - dungeon drop - Increases your Max Health by 1000 for you and up to 11 other group members within 28 meters of you. This used to be much more powerful but with power creep it's less useful. Still not bad for fragile PUG members who can't be bothered to have enough health to survive a mudcrab.

ixthUA

Drake's Rush is nice, i can spam ultimate skills with it (and other group members too).
I do not recommend powerful assault, due to range (10 meters) on a tank it will be a self-buff set.
Ebon is kind of useless, for my healer it adds +3.3% max life.
On a full support tank build i can still do some damage with ice staff, enough for base game dungeons. For DLC vet dungeons, if DDs are bad it's not worth even trying.

Draxund

Thank you all so much for the informative discussion here! This is precisely how I was hoping to engage the community.

My main is a tank. I've never cared for the phrasing of selfish. As tank we have two core purposes, stay alive and keep the mobs focused on us.

@Castian @newtinmpls @Bitter_Apple21 and several others have mentioned a priority in staying alive and taunting as the tank. I fully agree here, and that's one reason I was leaning toward Leeching for the survival. I'll be running a DK with fundamental skills like Pierce Armor, Heroic Slash, Inner Rage, and Talons to taunt and control mobs. But in dungeons I think I can get away with doing the rest of my gear in some type of support.


@Vevvev @Castian @WrathOfInnos @AcadianPaladin @Snamyap @dmnqwk @Bitter_Apple21 @jecks33 @El_Borracho @p00tx @newtinmpls @ixthUA Thank you all so much for suggesting various sets that you either find helpful or that you gave some pros and cons about. This really helps out people like me who are just starting a new role--I post on these forums specifically to get the wisdom of the community and it's incredibly insightful!

What I mean by this is not as straightforward as 'deal tons of damage yourself' but 'provide the group the tools necessary to kill the boss as quick as possible'

@dmnqwk This is a philosophy that I am now focusing on and several others have commented on. I originally thought that tank support sets were supposed to directly give your group members more damage (i.e., spell/wep damage). However, as you pointed out, "support" can be accomplished in various ways like resistance shredding, synergies or ULTs, or good CC.

So equipment that speaks to one (or ideally more than one [goal]) is good. If the average player (not rich, not a PVP or trial godling) can get it, so much the better. Not too many sets or equipment actually help with taunt, but that being said, here are some suggestions.

@newtinmpls Wow, I really appreciate the breakdown of so many options. On the flip side, there's SO MANY options, haha. Seriously though, thanks for the helpful resource!

Porter_H

I run Battalion Defender and Ebon on my near unkillable DK with a healing monster set (Sentinel, Chokethorn, or Earthgore). That one is more support. Backbar lightning/frost staff depending on the situation.

I run Tormentor and Witchman on my templar tank with Bloodspawn. Cresent Sweep often since Ult gen is crazy on him. Get heals/stam for Ult use from Witchman. Backbar a 2hander. I think selfish is the wrong word....pull 20k easily on that tank and still really tank.

One tank has better group support/heals and uses Warhorn. One tank has much higher dps and can solo most bosses if mechanics wipes the rest of the group.

I enjoy playing both!

newtinmpls

Draxund wrote: »

<small snip> others have mentioned a priority in staying alive and taunting as the tank. I fully agree here, and that's one reason I was leaning toward Leeching for the survival.

I was looking at that - and another heavy set that heals the wearer is Crimson Twilight which does a Bleed damage and then heals the wearer. But it requires more trouble (and a DLC) to get.

karekiz

Carry both.

Engine Guardian is a selfish set. It does nothing for the team, but I certainly carry it in case I get into a group/encounter and have resource issues. Was using it to tank VCA HM and the DPS certainly weren't yelling if we had another 260 W/SD we would have beat <Insert mechanic you wiped too here>.

You don't have to only wear one set. Simply swap them when needed.

Amerises

dmnqwk wrote: »

Damage kills bosses.

What I mean by this is not as straightforward as 'deal tons of damage yourself' but 'provide the group the tools necessary to kill the boss as quick as possible'.

1. Penetration. If you're running 7k penetration, which is where you want to be, then the lack of a tank (because it's a dps who isn't good at maths) is costing the group more than they'll bring to the mix.
2. Synergies/Support. As a tank if you hit your ultimate for damage and it does 100k, nice! But if you hit the horn for the dps, suddenly you're providing the group 150k instead. (numbers hypothetical) In a group where the 2 dps only do 25k between them, you might be better off using ice comet, but if they're 25k each, 40k each, then aggressive horn becomes a better option.
3. Positioning. The more the DD have to move, the lower their damage output is. If you can stand in fire an extra 10 seconds and prevent the boss moving, you'll kill them quicker.

The adds will die quicker if you group them up because a ST ability is 10k for DD but an AoE is 7k, meaning just two mobs grouped up is better... therefore stacking 5-6 mobs is win!

Warden - I run leeching plate and frozen watcher, plus swarm mother monster set. This means I just permablock, taunt the ranged ones to be swarm mothered in. Both my 5 sets are selfish, because my monster set is what matters. I bring about 12.5k single target and about 10k per target aoe (overland bosses, for example, see me hitting 30k dps if there are 3 present)

Dragonknight - I use leeching plate, again, and Diamond Victory with Tremorscale monster set. Again I group everything up with chains and, again, my 5 sets are selfish because ultimate I am rounding things up. I do about 17.5k single target but only about 6k aoe.

Your sets dont really matter in dungeons in terms of selfish vs supportive, what matters is your skill selections and your mentality. Bringing 11k penetration, rounding up the mobs and staying stationary is what helps the DD thrive far more than a 5 set buff to give them 300 power.

Also, for note: I use leeching plate a lot because of Balance(equilibrium). Allowing me to constantly lifetap for magicka to use my skills lets me push out the damage and keep moving quickly without worry. Nothing worse than spending 15k magicka on one pull, then having nothing to chain 3 mobs on the next because you didn't lifetap!

This. Mostly the holding still. Honestly, as a tank, I've never had an issue staying alive in vet trials and dungeons after learning mechanics. As a DK, I use PA ice backbar, puncturing remedy frontbar, yolna, and either Tremor or Encratis. Not a selfish set on there. On normal though, I'm usually better off as a DD with a taunt, lol. One thing I always remember on my tank is, if the dps is bad, I'm only a 5 sec. queue from a new PUG.

festegios

Here I am using pa body and olo backbar/magma inc helm for pugs 🤣

If I need more defence I’ll switch to yolna/pa


If you know the mechs you shouldn’t need ‘selfish’ sets. If your learning it can actually hinder your progress as you rely on the sets rather than your skills

AvalonRanger

My main character is PVE tank, and I don't care other group member except taunting.
I equip only one sharing damage shield always, but mostly concentrate self defending.
Because, if tank died, every people will be dead mostly.(and reviving role is tank mostly)