Account wide MMR

Zezin

People don't unlearn how to pvp when they create a new character, having your MMR reset every time you create a new character causes you to be pitted against people who are not at the same skill level, this in turn generates those impressive(and completely wrong) match results. If you're in a battleground and you killed 20 people while everyone else killed at most 5 then it's not because you're a good pvper it's because you are Anakin Skywalker massacring the younglings.

jaws343

On one hand, I agree. On another hand, playing a completely unfamiliar class has huge drawbacks.

Not to mention, when leveling a new character, you don't have access to a full skill or passive set. So, yeah, you may have more knowledge of the game and more general skill, you are working with half a deck, potentially on a class you have never played before.

McTaterskins

Also depends on the randomness of your team makeup. Or.. pre-made setup. Some folks are "closers"

Zezin

jaws343 wrote: »

On one hand, I agree. On another hand, playing a completely unfamiliar class has huge drawbacks.

Not to mention, when leveling a new character, you don't have access to a full skill or passive set. So, yeah, you may have more knowledge of the game and more general skill, you are working with half a deck, potentially on a class you have never played before.

That is also true for anyone else leveling a new character

xylena_lazarow

How long do experienced players stay low mmr? Last time I tried bgs on a new character I was running into endless walls of cross healing (aka high mmr) pretty quickly, like a couple hours max. What I don't get is why cp is disabled but sub-gear-cap players are thrown in with players on full builds, that cp100 guy stands zero chance.

Xebov

MMR plays little to no role in ESO.

To properly use a MMR system you would need to hold players in queue until you collected enough similar skilled players. This becomes more complicated the more players you need and you need a big enough player base, otehrwise ppl stay in queue for an extended amount of time. Thats where ESOs issue is. You need 12 players and have a small player base because BGs are not very attractive, but you dont want to keep players ages in the queue. So you more or less have to ignore the MMR otherwise you would not get anywhere.

divnyi

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

How long do experienced players stay low mmr? Last time I tried bgs on a new character I was running into endless walls of cross healing (aka high mmr) pretty quickly, like a couple hours max. What I don't get is why cp is disabled but sub-gear-cap players are thrown in with players on full builds, that cp100 guy stands zero chance.

Because we would otherwise abuse that and level down gear intentionally, while maximising power output.

They need additional <160CP queue, imo.

Araneae6537

Xebov wrote: »

MMR plays little to no role in ESO.

To properly use a MMR system you would need to hold players in queue until you collected enough similar skilled players. This becomes more complicated the more players you need and you need a big enough player base, otehrwise ppl stay in queue for an extended amount of time. Thats where ESOs issue is. You need 12 players and have a small player base because BGs are not very attractive, but you dont want to keep players ages in the queue. So you more or less have to ignore the MMR otherwise you would not get anywhere.

So true! I actually enjoyed Deathmatch BGs this weekend as I was grouped with and against others in the casual-to-learning-PvP spectrum and had some great close matches. But if it’s only during prime time during a PvP event that there are enough of us non-hardcore PvPers, then the rest of the time we just get steamrolled and discouraged from trying again regardless of our MMR.

(Edited for clarity, hopefully.)

J18696

Honestly the bg population is so low you don't even have a chance tobe placed in your correct mmr bracket just throws you in with whatever is available

starkerealm

Zezin wrote: »

...it's not because you're a good pvper it's because you are Anakin Skywalker massacring the younglings.

"This was your father's lightsaber... he killed, like, thirty kids with it. A more civilized weapon, for a more civilized age."

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

MMR plays little to no role in ESO.

To properly use a MMR system you would need to hold players in queue until you collected enough similar skilled players. This becomes more complicated the more players you need and you need a big enough player base, otehrwise ppl stay in queue for an extended amount of time. Thats where ESOs issue is. You need 12 players and have a small player base because BGs are not very attractive, but you dont want to keep players ages in the queue. So you more or less have to ignore the MMR otherwise you would not get anywhere.

So true! I actually enjoyed Deathmatch BGs this weekend as I was grouped with and against others in the casual-to-learning-PvP spectrum and had some great close matches. But if it’s only during prime time during a PvP event that there are enough of us non-hardcore PvPers, then the rest of the time we just get steamrolled and discouraged from trying again regardless of our MMR.

(Edited for clarity, hopefully.)

To be fair, this is kinda a problem with ESO's PvP across the board. It's not just a battlegrounds issue. The combat tempo is extremely high, it's why we're all here, but that also means it's incredibly difficult for new players to understand what's going on. By the time they're coming to grips with another player's first attack, they're dead. (This is ignoring issues like desync.)

Personally, my feeling is, rather than worrying about MMR, the sub-50 BGs should be gated whether the account has ever unlocked CP. With a similar Cyrodiil situation. Either you get mixed in with lowbies who've never hit 50, or you just have to swallow your pride and climb in with the 50s.

BronzeCaiman

Xebov wrote: »

MMR plays little to no role in ESO.

To properly use a MMR system you would need to hold players in queue until you collected enough similar skilled players. This becomes more complicated the more players you need and you need a big enough player base, otehrwise ppl stay in queue for an extended amount of time. Thats where ESOs issue is. You need 12 players and have a small player base because BGs are not very attractive, but you dont want to keep players ages in the queue. So you more or less have to ignore the MMR otherwise you would not get anywhere.

This 100%, I think its why MMR is hidden from the players. Maybe when BGs gets reverted back to random game mode queue it will be better. And adding some new rewards or rebalancing the reward system couldn´t hurt.

jaws343

starkerealm wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

...it's not because you're a good pvper it's because you are Anakin Skywalker massacring the younglings.

"This was your father's lightsaber... he killed, like, thirty kids with it. A more civilized weapon, for a more civilized age."

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

MMR plays little to no role in ESO.

To properly use a MMR system you would need to hold players in queue until you collected enough similar skilled players. This becomes more complicated the more players you need and you need a big enough player base, otehrwise ppl stay in queue for an extended amount of time. Thats where ESOs issue is. You need 12 players and have a small player base because BGs are not very attractive, but you dont want to keep players ages in the queue. So you more or less have to ignore the MMR otherwise you would not get anywhere.

So true! I actually enjoyed Deathmatch BGs this weekend as I was grouped with and against others in the casual-to-learning-PvP spectrum and had some great close matches. But if it’s only during prime time during a PvP event that there are enough of us non-hardcore PvPers, then the rest of the time we just get steamrolled and discouraged from trying again regardless of our MMR.

(Edited for clarity, hopefully.)

To be fair, this is kinda a problem with ESO's PvP across the board. It's not just a battlegrounds issue. The combat tempo is extremely high, it's why we're all here, but that also means it's incredibly difficult for new players to understand what's going on. By the time they're coming to grips with another player's first attack, they're dead. (This is ignoring issues like desync.)

Personally, my feeling is, rather than worrying about MMR, the sub-50 BGs should be gated whether the account has ever unlocked CP. With a similar Cyrodiil situation. Either you get mixed in with lowbies who've never hit 50, or you just have to swallow your pride and climb in with the 50s.

I don't think gating low level characters out of sub 50 bgs and cyrodil based on CP gain would ever work. Maybe gate them out based on Account wide titles if you must, as a player with grand overlord on a main at least has some level of PVP experience. But a person with 2K CP may have never set foot into a PVP area and is starting a new character to try it out in PVP.

I personally like to level new PVP characters in PVP zones and BGs, especially for classes or playstyles I have never tried before. And being pitted against other players who also don't have access to all of their skills is something that puts people on somewhat even playing fields. Especially when talking about a level 10 or so character. You can't put someone at level 10, regardless of PVP experience, against BG players running with skills and gear fully kitted out. It's not even competitive at that point.

ealdwin

jaws343 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

...it's not because you're a good pvper it's because you are Anakin Skywalker massacring the younglings.

"This was your father's lightsaber... he killed, like, thirty kids with it. A more civilized weapon, for a more civilized age."

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

MMR plays little to no role in ESO.

To properly use a MMR system you would need to hold players in queue until you collected enough similar skilled players. This becomes more complicated the more players you need and you need a big enough player base, otehrwise ppl stay in queue for an extended amount of time. Thats where ESOs issue is. You need 12 players and have a small player base because BGs are not very attractive, but you dont want to keep players ages in the queue. So you more or less have to ignore the MMR otherwise you would not get anywhere.

So true! I actually enjoyed Deathmatch BGs this weekend as I was grouped with and against others in the casual-to-learning-PvP spectrum and had some great close matches. But if it’s only during prime time during a PvP event that there are enough of us non-hardcore PvPers, then the rest of the time we just get steamrolled and discouraged from trying again regardless of our MMR.

(Edited for clarity, hopefully.)

To be fair, this is kinda a problem with ESO's PvP across the board. It's not just a battlegrounds issue. The combat tempo is extremely high, it's why we're all here, but that also means it's incredibly difficult for new players to understand what's going on. By the time they're coming to grips with another player's first attack, they're dead. (This is ignoring issues like desync.)

Personally, my feeling is, rather than worrying about MMR, the sub-50 BGs should be gated whether the account has ever unlocked CP. With a similar Cyrodiil situation. Either you get mixed in with lowbies who've never hit 50, or you just have to swallow your pride and climb in with the 50s.

I don't think gating low level characters out of sub 50 bgs and cyrodil based on CP gain would ever work. Maybe gate them out based on Account wide titles if you must, as a player with grand overlord on a main at least has some level of PVP experience. But a person with 2K CP may have never set foot into a PVP area and is starting a new character to try it out in PVP.

I personally like to level new PVP characters in PVP zones and BGs, especially for classes or playstyles I have never tried before. And being pitted against other players who also don't have access to all of their skills is something that puts people on somewhat even playing fields. Especially when talking about a level 10 or so character. You can't put someone at level 10, regardless of PVP experience, against BG players running with skills and gear fully kitted out. It's not even competitive at that point.

Emphasis mine.

As an enjoyer of slow-levelling PVP alts in the lowbie campaign, the bolded part is painfully true. With barely half your skills and passives, and only 5 bar slots the space from 10 to 15 can be painful in PVP, but at least they have a relative fighting chance. Throwing that character in with max level players would be pointless and horrific torture. So, yeah, gating characters based on account-wide CP from campaigns designed for that character's level would be a bad idea.

And just to be clear, while I do use crafted sets in the u50 campaigns and bgs, they're mainly just sustain helper sets like Shacklebreaker and Seducer's and blue level if that—jewelry never is upgraded. I'm not wasting gold mats on gear that's not cp160.

Xebov

BlackArgonian wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

MMR plays little to no role in ESO.

To properly use a MMR system you would need to hold players in queue until you collected enough similar skilled players. This becomes more complicated the more players you need and you need a big enough player base, otehrwise ppl stay in queue for an extended amount of time. Thats where ESOs issue is. You need 12 players and have a small player base because BGs are not very attractive, but you dont want to keep players ages in the queue. So you more or less have to ignore the MMR otherwise you would not get anywhere.

This 100%, I think its why MMR is hidden from the players. Maybe when BGs gets reverted back to random game mode queue it will be better. And adding some new rewards or rebalancing the reward system couldn´t hurt.

They should make better use of the rewards that are available.

The daily battleground is a great hook to get players into doing it. The problem about it is that you need to finish at least 2nd. If players frequently finish 3rd its unlikely they will stay and do it regularly. Changing it to a general reward for a match played would get players into joining more frequently for at least a single match for the rewards and possibly increasing the player base.

The other part is AP. You can buy motifs, gear and whatnot, but getting 8k/10k/12k per match when single items can cost 500k AP and ranks easily need millions is not a good deal. Even if players get content with BGs the low income of this is a great turn down.

GypsyKing22

They would need a proper MMR system in the first place, but the population is way too low to support that, so you just have aggregate lifetime medal score that gets reset every once in a while with bigger updates. In proper ELO system, your mmr changes depending on win/lose, in ESO you can lose every single BG and be highest mmr bracket. If this wasn't the case, certain people would just never get a game (queue times are already insanely long for group BGs as is once you're at "high mmr", i need to sit in queue with my friend for 20+ mins regularly, only to very often just get thrown into an objective game with only the 2 of us in the team)

ESO caters to casual gamers first and foremost, and then to end game pve-ers more so than to end game pvpers, even though the pvp has insane potential and despite all its flaws, even in its current state is one of the most fun on the market (otherwise we wouldn't keep coming back to it).

If they made better tutorials for the game that would go a long way for helping new players for both pve and pvp honestly, there are so many mechanics I figured out or learned about after many hundreds of hours of play that would've made my life a lot easier if i was just told by the game "this is how it works btw".

Also another thing is that for example many fighting games have people working on the teams who are pro pvpers in previous games, I think ZoS could use someone like that on the team, but i guess being a pro pvper is easier to define in games which were designed to be primarily competitive in the first place, with an actual avenue for players to 'become pros' (since in eso you can at best be a "pro" because there aren't any structured pvp tournaments outside of player made ones, and the games pvp is not the main focus)

Add to that the fact that ESO has so many forms of pvp, and all of them require different approaches and builds, you can be a "pro" duelist, a "pro" bg player, a "pro" zergling, and so on - even though in my experience those who are good duelists tend to be among the best in every other method of pvp too.

Xebov

GypsyKing22 wrote: »

ESO caters to casual gamers first and foremost, and then to end game pve-ers more so than to end game pvpers, even though the pvp has insane potential and despite all its flaws, even in its current state is one of the most fun on the market (otherwise we wouldn't keep coming back to it).

ESO has one of the worst PvPs i ever played. The Main reason is that its FPS speed with RPG skills. Thats a huge turn down for many players as the reaction time gets very narrow. I played alot betetr PvP in some other games that had higher TTK and allowed for reactions to attacks and propperly fighting back.

GypsyKing22 wrote: »

If they made better tutorials for the game that would go a long way for helping new players for both pve and pvp honestly, there are so many mechanics I figured out or learned about after many hundreds of hours of play that would've made my life a lot easier if i was just told by the game "this is how it works btw".

Tutorials dont help much. ESO has to many mechanics and most players skip them. What would help is creating rewards that hook ppl enought that they stay and try it even if they loose because the rewards are atractive enough.

lucky_Sage

the MMR sucks it need reworked completely

Aardappelboom

Xebov wrote: »

GypsyKing22 wrote: »

ESO caters to casual gamers first and foremost, and then to end game pve-ers more so than to end game pvpers, even though the pvp has insane potential and despite all its flaws, even in its current state is one of the most fun on the market (otherwise we wouldn't keep coming back to it).

ESO has one of the worst PvPs i ever played. The Main reason is that its FPS speed with RPG skills. Thats a huge turn down for many players as the reaction time gets very narrow. I played alot betetr PvP in some other games that had higher TTK and allowed for reactions to attacks and propperly fighting back.

GypsyKing22 wrote: »

If they made better tutorials for the game that would go a long way for helping new players for both pve and pvp honestly, there are so many mechanics I figured out or learned about after many hundreds of hours of play that would've made my life a lot easier if i was just told by the game "this is how it works btw".

Tutorials dont help much. ESO has to many mechanics and most players skip them. What would help is creating rewards that hook ppl enought that they stay and try it even if they loose because the rewards are atractive enough.

I actually love PVP and I think there's definitely a crowd for this kind of PVP experience, the problem lies in the big differences between pvp and pve in ESO.

Pvp is all about rotation and base mechanics, blocking and keeping heals up is the most important part, most pve'ers know how to put out dmg but lack the defensive skills, for most that's the only thing that's missing.

I get that there will always be a difference but when I started out I only barely knew rolling at the right moment dodged an attack and I never blocked anything, let alone block and heal at the same time, fix that and a lot of new players will have an easier time rolling in.

On topic though, MMR needs to be reworked, first thing that should happen is make it visible to players, it's confusing as hell getting into a BG and being nuked without knowing how good the other player really is. (let's be honest, it's less frustrating to be bombed by a super skilled player 😃) Secondly it'd like it to reflect your personal skill, not the amount of matches you've played and won/lost.

Tbh, except for some posts I found on the forums, I'm not even sure how MMR exactly works atm...

the1andonlyskwex

Things I hate about the current MMR:
1) It's cumulative, so it's easy to rank up to a point where you're no longer competitive.
2) It very rarely resets, so once you've ranked up to the point where you're no longer competitive, you basically have to abandon that character.
3) It's per-character, which is good in the sense that there's an option for people whose MMR is higher than their actual skill level, but it's bad in the sense that it allows people to curbstomp noobs by rolling new characters.
4) It accumulates during sub-50 BGs, but doesn't really kick in until level 50 (I assume because the high-MMR sub-50 population is so small), so there's a huge difficulty spike upon hitting 50 for anyone who levels through BGs.
5) It's not directly an MMR problem, but BGs are incredibly gear dependent. I find that upgrading my weapons and armor to gold quality makes a huge difference in the point at which I stop being competitive, but doing so isn't something that I can regularly afford to do on the rewards from BGs.

The first is the biggest problem. I like BGs, but I'm not good enough to be competitive in high MMR BGs. Instead of putting me in a tier that's appropriate to my skill level, the current system eventually winds up putting me in a tier where BGs stop being fun, which ultimately results in me playing a lot fewer BGs than I would otherwise prefer.