True Variability of magic builds

lQrukl

I really like the @WrathOfInnos's idea of ​​introducing an Alteration Staff instead of binding an ice staff to defense only. So I decided to work this mage's dreams out in more detail concept.

Also, for people who want more magic weapons / more actual variability.

Would be very impressive to see similar root changes in magic system with the hypothetical Winterhold (?) chapter just dreaming

Alteration Staff:
R) Stoneflesh (Ult, Magma Shell analogue for not dk tanks): Ebonyflesh (morph 1); Stone Atronach (morph 2, Summoning)
1) Detection (mostly passive to e.g. reduce block cost, but useful in PvP to detect enemies just like Blood Scion)
2) Seismic Wall (ground dot for glyph uptime, imposes off balance just like Wall of Storm now and/or grants shields from mele damage)
3) Paralyze (Crowd Control)
4) Telekinesis (pull enemy, with maybe taunt in one of the morphs)
5) Transmutation (debuff enemy's armor and weapons to deal less damage and increase penetration)

Tank-focused backbar weapon to mostly release long-suffering ice staff from this role.

Conjuration Staff:
R) Summon Flame Atro (single target turret just like sorc's storm atro): Summon Blaze Atro (Morph 1), Summon Frost Atro (Morph 2, maybe aoe or taunt enemies around or pvp-directed)
1) Familiar (magic damage wild-spirit pet)
2) Dead minion (mele-focused pet-skeleton with sword, deals physical damage -> 2H sword in morph)
3) Portal to oblivion (magic damage circular ground dot like Volley, but "dark magic" instead of arrows, slows enemies, forbids resurrecting in morph, 28m range, necro-friendly) 
4) Bound Armor (cursed, applies on enemy, deals same effect like Daedric Prey, but not direct (damage ver time ability) and not stacks, just alternative with longer duration and cross-class)
5) Expel Daedra (pvp-sourced, insta kills any no ult-summoned creature and deals high damage to summoned by ult)

Maybe limit players in amount of pets, but not turrets (time-limited pets like necro's mage). Ults count separately. Conjuration Staff has passives that buff summoned creatures

Illusion Staff:
R) Harmony (you instantly leave battle, all enemies become allies and cannot touch you for X time, the strongest pvp-escape, 500 u.p. cost, outside of pvp works in o/world only)
1) Invisibility (cross-class, for not nb pvp players)
2) Uncharted fury (aoe taunt)
3) Clairvoyance (mostly passive to e.g. increase hp regeneration, after cast you can escape damage from first critical hit you take)
4) Rout (cc, but forces enemy to run away instead of stun, just like fear mecanic before, enemy can fail down if near a cliff)
5) Anomaly area (blind enemy by reducing view, circular ground dot, magica damage, 28m range, magnb-friendly weapon as well)

Passives are similar to Malacath's Band of Brutality, boost pure damage by crit damage cost.
Could be usefull in pve for khajiits with crit damage overcap (Major Brittle coming 0w0) or just in pvp.

Destro Staff:
All destro staves give equal passive bonus to damage done. Variety preserved in abilities and status effects, but frost abilities revorked for damage dealers. All status effects also deals approximately equal dot damage. Burning still deals more if you wearing fire staff, praise DK-pyromancer. Sorc-elecromancer is allowed as well. Ice staff's defense trait probably kept, but binded with magica-cost blocking in the same passive: you can take this passive or not.



Restro Staff:
5) Force Siphon (does anyone actually use this?) -> Wall of Illuminate (?) (ground dot, makes magic damage, heals are forced to use destro staff for glyph uptime no more and can use 2 restro staves, templar-friendly)

Susurrus

What's with this 'variativity' neologism?

lQrukl

What's with this 'variativity' neologism?

Once typoed, autocomplete still bugs me ':D

Stx

We could really use some more skill trees like alteration, conjuration, illusion, etc. But I think at this point it's clear they don't want to spend the time to develop anything new. The main expansion feature is a card game, and most of the work they are doing with skills is just homogenization instead of making anything new.

lQrukl

We could really use some more skill trees like alteration, conjuration, illusion, etc. But I think at this point it's clear they don't want to spend the time to develop anything new. The main expansion feature is a card game, and most of the work they are doing with skills is just homogenization instead of making anything new.

The saddest part of that is adding 3 new staves much easier then adding new class with 3 unic skill trees, but for the third year without gameplay content we already don't belive that zos can do even that :c

Jman100582

There are a couple of issues with something like this. One is adding additional items to the loot pool, which is what zos has been using to justify not adding spears and other weapons to the game. Another issue is actually the animations. Not a lot of people are aware of this, but eso has actually been at the animation cap due to the limitations of console software for awhile now. Which is why a lot of the skill animations are all the same, with just different lighting effects

I'm not sure about the whole 3 staves thing. There aren't 3 different kinds of snb's after all, so having just 1 would make the most sense from that perspective

MashmalloMan

lQrukl wrote: »

We could really use some more skill trees like alteration, conjuration, illusion, etc. But I think at this point it's clear they don't want to spend the time to develop anything new. The main expansion feature is a card game, and most of the work they are doing with skills is just homogenization instead of making anything new.

The saddest part of that is adding 3 new staves much easier then adding new class with 3 unic skill trees, but for the third year without gameplay content we already don't belive that zos can do even that :c

What do you mean!? We got Gwent!.. wait.

emilyhyoyeon

Not sure how realistic it would be for them to implement so many staff types, but one seems really doable. I like the taunt on the telekinesis spell, gets around awkwardly putting a more illusion-based spell under alteration staff. I also like the seismic wall, since I never really thought about needing a skill for glyph proccing.

I don't think there should be a stone atronach for the ult though. Maybe something like

Base skill: limits damage taken to X% of max HP
Morph 1: base+reduces enemy resistances by Y in Z meter range
Morph 2: base+buffs yours and ally resistances by Y in Z meter range

or something similar. I just think a summoing spell is kind of out of place on an alteration staff

MashmalloMan

Jman100582 wrote: »

One is adding additional items to the loot pool, which is what zos has been using to justify not adding spears and other weapons to the game.

I've never seen ZOS quoted on this. It seems to be something players came up with on their own as an excuse for ZOS which we just shouldn't do.. there is no excuse. This reason actually doesn't make sense from the perspective of the context of the game updates and how MMO's work to WANT their playerbase grinding constantly.We need more reasons to farm older content as systems have been introduced that have reduced that grind. Eventually all end game players will have no reason to touch older content, thus reducing the amount of people at end game farming for gear that a new player would have no way of accessing.

Examples:

1. Transmuting introduced. No need to farm the same content 100s of times for the perfect trait on gear.
2. Stickerbook introduced. No need to farm the same content 100s of times for duplicates.
3. Loot Table RNG adjusted. No need to farm the same content 100s of times getting items you've already collected before, you have a guaranteed number runs to access the items you want.

Jman100582 wrote: »

Another issue is actually the animations. Not a lot of people are aware of this, but eso has actually been at the animation cap due to the limitations of console software for awhile now. Which is why a lot of the skill animations are all the same, with just different lighting effects

Yes, but at the same time it doesn't really matter because new character animations aren't needed when you have the basics for casting skills for anything you need. The effects and animations of said effects is the important part needed for new skills to stand a part. The art direction, effects and animations of newer sets have put base class skills to shame, so that is clearly not holding them back.. Just look at the Maw Monster Set compared to the purple pets Sorc's have and thats a rather old one.

Aegis Caller for example, would of loved that as a Sorc Physical Damage Ult.

Some common overlaps for animations:

1. Vigor = Hurricane = Looks like the break free animation.
2. Dark Deal = Equillibrium = Waive your hand in front of your face like a jedi.
3. Fire Rune = Trap Beast = Trapping Webs = Throw out your hand in front of you as if tossing something.
4. Rally = Bound Armaments = Camo Hunter = Accelerate = Deadly Cloak = Raising your weapon above you.
5. Crushing Weapon = Crystal Weapon = For DW, you swipe both weapons to your side, for 2H you point your weapon forward then pull back.
6. Every Shield Skill uses the same animation of slamming your hands together in front of you.

And thats just the ones I can think of for Sorc.

So lets be clear. Don't make excuses for ZOS. Nothing about what they said prevents them from creating a new skill line, weapon or class, it's purely their decision to handle their new content this way.

I think whats more likely is they're avoiding introducing new combat related mechanics every chapter because they are still actively reworking how the core combat of the game functions.. from hybrid skill scaling, to stat and buff combining, to CP 2.0 and skill/set standardization, it's been years of these changes and there is more to come..

The only real arguement against new weapons is based on having to introduce motifs and luckily for 1H + Magic or these new staves, that is not an issue as you would just reuse the existing motifs the same way Resto/Destruction share or 1H + Shield do.

Spears.. SOL for sure :P

WrathOfInnos

Cool stuff, glad to see additional weapon lines gaining some traction. I really think staves are the most likely one, because nobody would need to go make 100+ motif styles of a weapon (like spears or wands). Shouldn't be any more development work than the Psijic skill line, likely less, and it would open up fun new options for tanks while also freeing up frost staff for damage.

Faulgor

Can we also come up with some ideas for a Mysticism staff? Or would that be too much?

In Morrowind and Oblivion, Mysticism included Absorb, Reflect, Dispel, Telekinsis, Soul Trap, Detect, and Teleportation skills such as Divine Intervention. I could see a support staff with some Soul Magic type damage that focuses on damage absorb and reflect for groups, and maybe a teleportation skill somewhere below Streak and Shade in power level.
A Dispel could also be interesting for PvP, I've been wondering since release why we don't have any.

Jman100582

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

One is adding additional items to the loot pool, which is what zos has been using to justify not adding spears and other weapons to the game.

I've never seen ZOS quoted on this. It seems to be something players came up with on their own as an excuse for ZOS which we just shouldn't do.. there is no excuse. This reason actually doesn't make sense from the perspective of the context of the game updates and how MMO's work to WANT their playerbase grinding constantly.We need more reasons to farm older content as systems have been introduced that have reduced that grind. Eventually all end game players will have no reason to touch older content, thus reducing the amount of people at end game farming for gear that a new player would have no way of accessing.

Examples:

1. Transmuting introduced. No need to farm the same content 100s of times for the perfect trait on gear.
2. Stickerbook introduced. No need to farm the same content 100s of times for duplicates.
3. Loot Table RNG adjusted. No need to farm the same content 100s of times getting items you've already collected before, you have a guaranteed number runs to access the items you want.

Jman100582 wrote: »

Another issue is actually the animations. Not a lot of people are aware of this, but eso has actually been at the animation cap due to the limitations of console software for awhile now. Which is why a lot of the skill animations are all the same, with just different lighting effects

Yes, but at the same time it doesn't really matter because new character animations aren't needed when you have the basics for casting skills for anything you need. The effects and animations of said effects is the important part needed for new skills to stand a part. The art direction, effects and animations of newer sets have put base class skills to shame, so that is clearly not holding them back.. Just look at the Maw Monster Set compared to the purple pets Sorc's have and thats a rather old one.

Aegis Caller for example, would of loved that as a Sorc Physical Damage Ult.

Some common overlaps for animations:

1. Vigor = Hurricane = Looks like the break free animation.
2. Dark Deal = Equillibrium = Waive your hand in front of your face like a jedi.
3. Fire Rune = Trap Beast = Trapping Webs = Throw out your hand in front of you as if tossing something.
4. Rally = Bound Armaments = Camo Hunter = Accelerate = Deadly Cloak = Raising your weapon above you.
5. Crushing Weapon = Crystal Weapon = For DW, you swipe both weapons to your side, for 2H you point your weapon forward then pull back.
6. Every Shield Skill uses the same animation of slamming your hands together in front of you.

And thats just the ones I can think of for Sorc.

So lets be clear. Don't make excuses for ZOS. Nothing about what they said prevents them from creating a new skill line, weapon or class, it's purely their decision to handle their new content this way.

I think whats more likely is they're avoiding introducing new combat related mechanics every chapter because they are still actively reworking how the core combat of the game functions.. from hybrid skill scaling, to stat and buff combining, to CP 2.0 and skill/set standardization, it's been years of these changes and there is more to come..

The only real arguement against new weapons is based on having to introduce motifs and luckily for 1H + Magic or these new staves, that is not an issue as you would just reuse the existing motifs the same way Resto/Destruction share or 1H + Shield do.

Spears.. SOL for sure :P

Lol I'm not making excuses for them, as I myself would like to be able to use new abilities. I'm just being realistic; players have been asking for new weapon skill lines for years and the response has always more or less been "we have better things to do and here's x y and z about why we won't do new weapons." I was just saying the x y and z. Although I myself would prefer new skill lines instead of weapons sure, the premise still stands

Vevvev

Best part about new staff types is the art team doesn't need to make like 100 new weapon motif skins to go along with it since all staves share the same skins. They might give the staff a different hand hold like how resto and lightning staves are different than the shared ice and fire staff hand holds on them. Some way to differentiate them.

Jazraena

Though I like the idea of more staves, styling them around the Schools of Magic which no one but Shad Astula uses to any widespread degree during ESO time may not be the best fluff for them - unless it's specifically Shad Astula Content, anyway.

lQrukl

Though I like the idea of more staves, styling them around the Schools of Magic which no one but Shad Astula uses to any widespread degree during ESO time may not be the best fluff for them - unless it's specifically Shad Astula Content, anyway.

Why not e.g. Winterhold chapter? Shad Astula is connected with Ebonheart Pact theme and Winterhold is part of Pact.

Darkstorne

Why not add these kind of skills/spells to new Guild and/or World skill lines? A College of Winterhold Guild for example.

No additional weapons in the already stacked loot pool. Far more variety to builds since you can mix these new abilities with existing weapon lines. All characters in the game benefit from the new variety.

Tannus15

I really like the idea of adding another staff line. it neatly avoids the motif issue of adding something like spears or sword and rune.
it would be great for destruction staff to be for destruction and there be another support line for tanking.

Stx wrote: »

We could really use some more skill trees like alteration, conjuration, illusion, etc. But I think at this point it's clear they don't want to spend the time to develop anything new. The main expansion feature is a card game, and most of the work they are doing with skills is just homogenization instead of making anything new.

as for this i think they are doing exactly the right thing not adding a new skill line or weapon line at the same time that they are fundamentally changing the skill dynamic and relationship to stamina and magicka vs ranged and melee. the changes in update 32, 33 and 34 are a huge shift in how the game is balanced and functions that adding another skill line to consider would make it even harder.

I'd much rather see them put their efforts towards balancing and fixing the issues we currently have (lightning staff anyone?) as well as the issues which are going to be introduced this update as a result of such far reaching changes.

ESO_Nightingale

Tannus15 wrote: »

I really like the idea of adding another staff line. it neatly avoids the motif issue of adding something like spears or sword and rune.
it would be great for destruction staff to be for destruction and there be another support line for tanking.

Stx wrote: »

We could really use some more skill trees like alteration, conjuration, illusion, etc. But I think at this point it's clear they don't want to spend the time to develop anything new. The main expansion feature is a card game, and most of the work they are doing with skills is just homogenization instead of making anything new.

as for this i think they are doing exactly the right thing not adding a new skill line or weapon line at the same time that they are fundamentally changing the skill dynamic and relationship to stamina and magicka vs ranged and melee. the changes in update 32, 33 and 34 are a huge shift in how the game is balanced and functions that adding another skill line to consider would make it even harder.

I'd much rather see them put their efforts towards balancing and fixing the issues we currently have (lightning staff anyone?) as well as the issues which are going to be introduced this update as a result of such far reaching changes.

While i do agree, it's also been years since we've got any sort of combat related system, eg, class, guild skill line. and it's starting to get REALLY stale.

ANewHand

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

While i do agree, it's also been years since we've got any sort of combat related system, eg, class, guild skill line. and it's starting to get REALLY stale.

I feel like changing the scaling stats of all offensive skills to allow build flexibility is a better remedy to perceived "staleness" than adding a niche skill line that ends up being mostly useless (e.i., Psijic line).

It hasn't been half a year since the frost spammable was introduced and all sets have hybrid stats and you're already calling it stale?

ESO_Nightingale

ANewHand wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

While i do agree, it's also been years since we've got any sort of combat related system, eg, class, guild skill line. and it's starting to get REALLY stale.

I feel like changing the scaling stats of all offensive skills to allow build flexibility is a better remedy to perceived "staleness" than adding a niche skill line that ends up being mostly useless (e.i., Psijic line).

It hasn't been half a year since the frost spammable was introduced and all sets have hybrid stats and you're already calling it stale?

i suppose it depends on what you think is a new combat system. i don't consider the hybridisation or class/weapon skill changes to be a new combat system. i can see why you think it is. But to me i considered the psijic order guild skill line and necromancer as new combat systems that expand upon what already exists, where as with balance changes, it's just fixing/rejigging what already exists.

katorga

Susurrus wrote: »

What's with this 'variativity' neologism?

Neologism....nice word, well played.